Conference noted::sf

		Go to it guys!! (Jerry Boyajian, our bibliog man)
	
			I don't know a darn thing about Niven,
		except for DREAM PARK. Are they all in that style?

Known Space series (in internal chronological order):

TALES OF KNOWN SPACE	[collection; actually, these stories stretch out all along
			the timeline of the series.]
WORLD OF PTAAVS
THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON	[collection]
THE PATCHWORK GIRL
PROTECTOR
A GIFT FROM EARTH
NEUTRON STAR		[collection]
RINGWORLD
RINGWORLD ENGINEERS

Warlock series:

THE TIME OF THE WARLOCK		[collection of all of Niven's Warlock stories,
				forthcoming in a limited hardcover edition]
THE MAGIC GOES AWAY
THE MAGIC MAY RETURN	+ [These two are anthologies, edited by Larry Niven, of
MORE MAGIC		+  stories by other authors set in the same world as the
			   Warlock.]

Other Novels:

A WORLD OUT OF TIME	+ [These supposedly take place in the same background
THE INTEGRAL TREES	+  universe, though I don't know for sure, not having
			   read TREES yet (gasp!). There are a few short stories
			   scattered throughout his collections that I know *are*
			   connected to A WORLD OUT OF TIME, though.]

	with David Gerrold:

THE FLYING SORCERERS

	with Jerry Pournelle:

THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE	[set in Pournelle's CoDominium series]
INFERNO
LUCIFER'S HAMMER
OATH OF FEALTY

	with Steve Barnes:

DREAM PARK
THE DESCENT OF ANANSI


Collections:

THE FLIGHT OF THE HORSE
CONVERGENT SERIES
ALL THE MYRIAD WAYS
A HOLE IN SPACE
THE SHAPE OF SPACE	[Out of print for good; all of the stories herein have
			 been redistributed to other collections.]
INCONSTANT MOON		[Only appeared in the UK; all of the stories herein
			 have appeared in other US collections.]

	Note: There are various series scattered about the short stories in
	the collections.]


--- jerry

BTW....

re:.0
	As you can see, Niven's list isn't all *that* much shorter than
Asimov's. Between us, Andrew and I accounted for 36 titles for Dr. A.
(which, admittedly, did not include his non-fiction, anthologies, omnibus
collections, or small press chapbooks). Niven had 28 titles listed (in-
cluding his two anthologies).

re:.2
	If you liked DREAM PARK, you'll probably like a lot of Niven's
work. He has a wry sort of humor that exists in all of his work. THE
FLYING SORCERERS is especially funny. One can learn a goodly amount of
physics (if such interests you) by reading Niven's fiction, too.

--- jerry

Also BTW, The Integral Trees *is* set in the same Universe as World Out of 
Time. Frankly, I'm not as enamoured with this "future history" milieu as 
the "known space" milieu.

					andrew

Read the ringworld books and the Mote in God's Eye they are probably his best.

				Dave

I would agree with the Ringworld books, but I definitely do not consider MOTE...
to be up there.  It was rather lengthy and rather 'boring'.  "to each his own".

-Joe Melvin

    The latest issue of Asimov's has a new Known Space novelette by 
    Niven, "Madness Has Its Place". 
    Unfortunately, there is also a novella by 
    James Patrick Kelly, "Mr Boy", and Niven really looks stale in 
    comparison.   Niven's story is about a retired ARM who needs 
    constant purges by the autodoc to control his murderous 
    paranoia.   When word comes of an attack on a human ship by an 
    alien race, he decides that maybe humanity could use a little 
    paranoia to set up its defense.   You may remember the attack 
    from another Niven story; it's where the humans defeat the Kzin 
    with a ... novel use of a photon drive.  There is a series of 
    shared-world books out now on the Man-Kzin Wars, and this is 
    probably a excerpt from a larger story in one of those.
    
    The reason why it looks stale is that there is so little 
    biological extrapolation in it.  The human beings are the same as 
    us in every way, except that they live longer.  In "Mr Boy", on 
    the other hand, humanity is shifting wildly.  The protagonist is 
    now twenty-five, but keeps shifting back to the body of a twelve
    year old boy.  His best friend is in the form of a dinosaur.  His 
    wealthy and domineering mother has made herself over into a 
    3/4-size replica of the Statue of Liberty.  That got her into trouble 
    with the town zoning ordinances in Connecticut, but they 
    agreed with appropriate setbacks.
    
    Ridiculous?  Sure, but it's all for comic effect.  It's so 
    refreshing after Niven's alien invaders.   As a source for 
    extrapolation, physics seems to be exhausted these days.  Biology 
    is where the action's at.
    
    /jlr

    One needs to do biology to avoid being stale? Physics is minded out?
    Your examples don't do much to convince me.
    
    First of all, they are so different in dramatic intent that any
    comparison between them seems difficult.
    
    Second, both stories ARE using biology as a central gimmick.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Yes, the use of paranoia is part of the Niven story, but more of 
    it revolves around just how the protagonist intends to fight off 
    the Kzin, which is more physics oriented.  Sorry if I left that 
    out; I thought it would be a spoiler.
    
    I've been trying to think of recent stories that did much physics 
    extrapolation.   There's Gregory Benford's recent novel "Tides of 
    Light", where aliens use a cosmic string to core out a planet 
    like an apple. That got a bit didactic, though; one whole 
    chapter, where the protagonist falls through the center of the 
    planet, reads like a physics problem set.   Benford can be 
    forgiven since he actually is a physics professor.  Any others?

    /jlr

    There is a sequel to "Integral Trees", called "The Smoke Ring".
    
    I like the novels which Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle have written
    together. I think "The Mote in God's Eye" and "Inferno" are my
    favourites, with their last one (can't remember the name) coming third.
    The only criticism I have is that the endings are a little weak
    compared with the main parts of the story.
    
    
    Dave Hazel

    I think their last collaboration was 'Footfall'. They also wrote
    one with Steven Barnes, title escapes me. (Something to do with
    Beowulf.)

    re: .10
    
    Their other major collaboration is "Lucifer's Hammer", which 
    concerns a comet hitting present-day Earth.  
    
    I've never been wild about their collaborations, actually.  The 
    Niven part gets diluted by Pournelle's strident political opinions.  
    You're engrossed in learning about the Moties when suddenly you 
    switch back to the human ship where those mush-headed liberal 
    scientists have screwed something else up.  It's annoying.  I 
    wish he would write more on his own, but collaboration seems to 
    be too easy for him these days.  /jlr

   �  those mush-headed liberal scientists have screwed something else
   �  up.  It's annoying.

   But lends a refreshing note of reality, Right? ;'D

   Mike JN

    I agree with .14: Pournelle writes the same book over and over, in a
    framework written by Niven. It's getting tired, Jerry! Let it go! The
    same can be said for Pournelle's writings in Byte and InfoWorld, for
    that matter. Real Soon Now, cute names for computers, get the install
    procedure simple enough for a moron (like me). B-o-r-i-n-g.
    
    IMHO - Hoyt

    Niven has a new collection out in hardcover.  I picked it up as
    a treat when I was on the road.  The cover blurb features "an
    introduction by Tom Clancy..." that essentially says "I read Larry Niven
    when I need something mindless..." 

    The book contains some interesting autobiographical material, as well
    as a few real odd bits.

      - an outline for a story that kills off Known Space
      - a story in which William Proxmire travels in time to cure a young
        naval officer of TB... 

    As a diehard Niven fan I enjoyed it... but it was *work*...

    							js

    The story outline that "kills of Known Space" is in this notes
    conference... do dir/title=niven (or maybe /key=niven) and you'll find
    it almost exactly as it appears in N Space. You omitted the key part of
    the William Proxmire time-travel story: he wants to cure *ROBERT
    HEINLEIN* so Big Bob will stay in the Navy instead of writing all these
    science fiction (yuk!) stories which inspired a nation to WASTE money
    on space exploration (Proxmire's views). Clever tribute to Big Bob, I
    thought.
    
    Niven also has a new Integral Trees-set story. At least seventy percent
    of the book is extracts from old books, however. Does this represent
    writer's block or something?
    
    - Hoyt

    I hadn't read Niven's "Known Space" for about a decade, so I picked it
    up this weekend and immediately came across Niven's crediting our own
    Jerry Boyajian with the (co)creation of the book's Known Space
    time-line! Wow!
    
    - Hoyt

    I've been fighting with N-Space the last few nights. The forward that
    explains the relationship with the other authors and the Boscon/Boxboro
    and MIT connections was different and something interesting to read.
    I've found it an interesting refresher for the Niven I read years ago.
    I'm pretty sure that the exerpts will probably cause me to reread some
    of the books from my high school/college days.
    
    I like the short piece collection format but I'm having problems
    getting enough background remembered to fill in the gaps.
    
    I don't know if it's out in paperback yet. My wife bought it through
    one of the book clubs.

    
    
      There's a new (at least new to me) Niven/Pournelle/Someone-else
    colaboration out called "Fallen Angel". Nothing to do with Known
    Space or Moties, but so far it's a great read.
    
      It deals with an alternate future reality in which Earth is
    undergoing another Ice Age. Only "Appropriate Technology is sanctioned
    by an extremist government, who blame it all on the over-liberal
    scientists of the 80/90's. Space has been abandoned, accept for
    a few manned orbiting habitats.
      The story is basically about the misadventures of a habitat based
   scoopship crew who happen to crashland on Earth.
    
      
      
       I'd give it an 8.5 on the Niven/Pournelle scale.
    
    
    RichC
    

    I finished Fallen Angel(s?) a few weeks back, and yes, it was a good
    read, but I occasionally found the SF fandom related stuff a little
    too precious.  It does have a few hilarious moments though.  Is this
    the beginning of a new sub-genre, "SF-Lite"?
    
    len.
    

    I read it and it _almost_ made me want to go to a Con.

    	I'm in the process of reading it now. So far it's living up to my
    expectations for a Niven-Pournelle collaboration. I find some of the
    references that they make to things that we see in the news now quite
    amusing really. Especially about the 4th Amendment and sobriety
    checkpoints. I'm about 3/4 of the way through it and should finish it
    sometime next week.
    
    Barry
    

    At a panel at Worldcon Jerry Pournelle mentioned that this was a
    tribute to all their "friends", and that the characters were either
    based on real people or based on general types of fans.  If you are a
    hardcore fan you might get more out of this than readers who have never
    been to a con.  Cons are a lot of fun, but I don't try to take them too
    seriously. :+)
    
    Willie

    I found this book to be an incredible disappointment. Spoilers.
    
    It is SLOW. Pages and pages, and they are still on the glacier. The
    basic plot is "they get off the glacier and wander to the site of an
    old rocket." Not edifying. Hardly a page-turner.
    
    It is full of cheap, cynical politics. I tend to blame Pournelle for
    these, but I've just about given up on Larry who can't seem to write on
    his own anymore. The environmentalists are all embarrassingly stupid.
    Law and order has receded, as apparently has the profit motive. They
    beat up on NASA and the Congress. This isn't science, it isn't fiction,
    it's crummy polemics.
    
    The cutesy con stuff is just irritating. It characterizes SF readers as
    adolescents. If cons really have that flavor, no thanks.
    
    The only part of the book which I found worth reading was the
    exposition (an essay, really, the poor excuse for which was a con
    lecture) on the causes of the ice age. "Throw another log on the fire."
    The authors put forward the thesis that an ice age is coming because
    we've cleaned up the environment too much, so too much heat is escaping
    the atmosphere. We need to pollute MORE. I don't remember hearing this
    thesis before, and it was interesting. But more of the same: bash the
    greens. I would have been more open to persuasion if Niven/Pournelle
    didn't spend the book on a soapbox.
    
    I've probably given away or convinced friends to buy a 100 copies of
    various Niven novels. I'm retiring from the "enthuse about Larry" club.
    
    This book stank.

    re.27 Ever meet some of the eco-extremists? The kind who think that
    the shuttle's main engines pollute? The kind who can't do simple
    math _with_ a calculator, but speak of ecosystems (as though those
    were stable??) The kind who blithly propose solutions to the 
    'ecological crisis' which have, as a first requirement, the death
    of 90 % of the human race? 
    
    Don't muisunderstand, I like the Earth, I like nature, the outdoors,
    I abhor pollution. *But* I like the human race, too.
    
    Dana Charbonneau
     

    Actually, it turns out that Niven and Pournelle wrote the first couple
    of chapters and then wrapped things up in the last couple of chapters,
    but they left the middle part to their co-author, whose name escapes me
    at the moment.  I've only read the freebie partial-proofs (first couple
    of chapters, kind of a literary sneak preview) they were giving out at
    Worldcon.
    
    Willie

    I think Niven and Pournelle (probably especially Pournell) are in fact
    writing more and more polemics and less and less sci-fi. They're both
    good enuf writers to conceal ( I don't mean deliberately) the fact.
    
    I remember the good old days of sci-fi, in the fifties and sixties,
    when sci-fi opened up new vistas outside the prevailing grayness and
    conformity of the Eisenhower years; remember how many heroes were
    rebels, were fighting against an oppressive government or society?
    
    The philosophy of these two seems to be: the government is good, if
    you're against the government you're bad. The end justifies the means,
    etc. (I was hoping that idea was dying with the death of the Soviet
    state).
    
    As an example, remember in The Mote in God's Eye, at the very
    beginning, when the hero-I-forget-his-name, you know, the young
    aristocrat who has the world at his feet, is traveling down
    to the surface of the rebellious planet, that the new empire has
    finally suppressed? He sees a pocket of resistance - the
    way it's described - only fanatics would fight against the imperial
    guard - who's the bad guys? Then he sees a downed imperial craft
    that had kamikazed - the way it's described - they didn't want their
    lives to be in vain.
    
    It's really strange to hear Americans voicing these elitist imperialist
    aristocratic sentiments. You get the strong feeling messrs Niven and
    Pournelle would LOVE to live in an empire with an aristocracy.
    
    Ken

    Many moons ago, when Jerry Pournelle got in on the ground floor of Bix,
    he was a lot of fun to talk to, but then he started experiencing
    information overload (or something), and has for quite a while now
    limited himself to extremely short, ascerbic comments (Pournelle's
    Pronouncements).  He was just like this on the panels I saw him on at
    Worldcon, so I've personally written him off as a no longer interesting
    person...  :+}  [Well, it's kinder than calling him an old drunk...]
    
    Willie

    Well, as long as we're bashing Jerry, there's his one and single Byte
    topic:
    
        I get all this free stuff (readers), and if you (vendors) are smart
        you'll send me more.
    
    Boy, I hate that.

 >  re.27 Ever meet some of the eco-extremists? The kind who think that
 >  the shuttle's main engines pollute?

    Obviously these "eco-extremists" you refere to are very badly informed. 
    Surely they should realize its the shuttle's solid-fuel boosters that
    are polluting the atmosphere and destroying the ozone layer.

    While I wrote the above somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I felt that the tone
    of your note implied that the shuttle didn't pollute and that 
    anyone that thought so was technically illiterate and an extremist to 
    boot. Anyway a fairly balanced analysis of the subject is presented in  
    the Sept 7, 1991 issue of _New Scientist_.

						Dennis Murphy
    

I'm surprised that you lot in the states hadn't informed us UK Niven fans

about The Moat Around Murchesons Eye

Oliver

    Well, actually they called it _The Gripping Hand_ here in the states. 
    Kind of a yawner actually.  Really disjointed and confusing book.

    Disjointed is the word.  Niven & Pournelle's cross-country
    collaboration is no longer as seamless as it once was.
    
    Just barely worth reading.  A wholly unsatisfactory sequel to a great
    original.
    
    \dave

Article: 606
From: [email protected] (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews
Subject: Crashlander, by Larry Niven
Date: 30 May 1994 21:43:15 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Sender: [email protected] (Michael C. Berch)
 
This recently released paperback collects the Beowulf Shaeffer stories
together, along with some connecting glue.  If you haven't read them
all, here's your chance.  And the glue isn't bad. 
 
The stories are quite well known:  Neutron Star, At the Core,
Flatlander, Grendel, The Borderland of Sol, along with a new story
related to the "glue", Procrustes.  Neutron Star, At the Core, and The
Borderland of Sol are each stories spun around strange astrophysical
objects.  The others more simply exploit more varied Known Space
staples, such as the curious legal system, bits of Slaver technology,
transfer booths, and so on. 
 
The more recent material applies more modern terms for what must have
been the case all along, such as "nanotechnology" for some of the
things that were handwaved away in earlier stories.  I'm not sure if
this is a good thing or not.  It gave an odd flavor on top of the
basic staple of Known-Space-ness.  This is perhaps similar to the
flavor of some of the better Man-Kzin-War series.  I'd place
Crashlander (being done by Niven instead of by collaborators) as
better work than the average of the Man-Kzin-War stuff. 
 
But in addition to pointing out that you will like this if this is the
sort of thing you like, and pointing out that it's mostly a collection
of older stories, the thing that perhaps *most* struck me is a
contrast between the style of the older work, and the style of the
connecting glue and the new story.  (Note:  Possible minor spoilers,
but only for the "classic material".) 
 
The early Beowulf Shaeffer was so *sure* he had everything significant
figured out at the end of each story.  It was something that minimally
annoyed me about early Niven in general.  "The puppeteers don't have a
moon".  Come *on*.  That's totally *lame*.  As is, in fact, a lot of
the detail science behind, say Neutron Star and the others.  For
examples, in the situation described, Beowulf Shaeffer would have been
torn apart, no matter that he hid at the center of gravity.  And the
Institute of Knowledge at Jinx didn't know about *tides*?  We have the
puppeteer reporting some of their followup work on the original attempt: 
 
    "A mass that large can distort space by its rotation."  Said the
    Puppeteer.  "The Laskins' projected hyperbola was twisted across
    itself in such a way that we can deduce the star's period of rotation
    to be two minutes twenty-seven seconds."
 
So, the IofK knew enough to run general relativistic calculations on
the twist that a massive rotating body gives spacetime, but were naive
enough to forget to model *tides*?  Foo!  Foo I say! 
 
My point is, both of these qualities (Niven as author having such
faith that thought converges on one, and the correct, solutions to
things, and having his characters actually it on it) seem to have have
mellowed with age. "Wheels within wheels" makes for a more plausible
story than sudden, simple, final strokes of insight.  In the end, I
rather like a style of sudden strokes of insight that reveal a deep
nest of wheels-within-wheels. 
 
The juxtaposition of all these stories, written at various times, 
and with the most modern material between, points out the changes in
Niven's style nicely.  Niven's characters are no longer so cocksure of
themselves.  Beowulf points out that maybe the puppeteers just sent
him in to *prove* their hulls safe, but they already knew about the
tides. They didn't want to tell him in advance: they wanted him to
figure it out.  And that his "successful" blackmail was simply them
reinforcing their covery story.  A little bit of reconning from the
more mellow, mature Niven.  Similar things apply to interpretations of
the Puppeteer's actions reacting to the core explosion. 
 
I think I like the later Niven somewhat better.  
 
At least... I *think* I do.
 
%A Niven, Larry 
%T Crashlander
%I DelRey (Ballantine)
%C New York
%D 1994
%G ISBN 0-345-38168-8
 
--
Wayne Throop   throopw%[email protected]
               [email protected]