Conference noted::sf

Well, the CBS airing of SW is history. I thought the network did an OK
job of inserting commercials, BUT...

I REALLY could have done without the stupid intro by Hamell (I mean, did
he say anything that anyone didn't already know?) and the REALLY STUPID
remarks before each commercial set (notice that all the "stars" were CBS
personnel...).

Are there plans to air the other two SW flicks or is Lucas holding on to
them?

-- Bill

as far as I know -- when the movie SW was aired on pay-tv, lucas said that
he would never release the other Star-wars movies (or, i think, the Indiana
Jones stuff) to television.

Whilst I feel that it's a dog in the manger attitude, I can't really fault him
for wanting to keep squeezing money out of his movies.

It did say "Episode IV", and there was no "Close the blast doors".

I really got disgusted by the various CBS show people saying insipid things
about SW.  They even had "Fred Flintstone" talking about seeing SW as
a kid!  C'mon, now!  As for the filler before and after, they did need
something to fill out the 3 hours.  I did not see an "Edited for Television"
statement and did not notice any cuts.

Probably the most interesting thing was two new Pepsi commercials.  I'll
have to go back to my tape and see those again.
					Steve

Yeah, the Pepsi commercials were nice take-offs on CE3K and ET. They even
captured the "feel" of the original films. Quite nice for commercials.

Lucas is not the only one to withhold films from TV. Walt Disney has been 
making money by re-releasing films every seven years to theaters. The only 
TV showing of the films was on his TV show. But I think this policy has changed 
in recent years.

mike

I had heard that Home Box Office had screwed Lucas, when they got the rights to
show one of his movies in the past;  that is why Lucas does not want to release
his films to TV. 

I have heard rumors both ways, that the rest of the STAR WARS movies are
history, that Lucas is too bored with them to finish them.  I heard this at
BOSKONE, and there was not a whisper about STAR WARS at the persentation on
LABYRINTH, a movie destined for this summer by Lucas and Hensen.
 
Anybody got any better information?

        The word from the later film presentations at Boskone (Lucasfilm
        had a second spot on Sunday, primarily aimed at Howard the
        Duck, but she also finished the aborted Labyrinth presentation;
        immediately prior to that was an Orion films presentation,
        by a guy who took questions on *any* Hollywood project or
        potential project) is that the Star Wars saga has not been
        permanently abandoned.  The next movie is "on the back burner",
        according to both presenters (although the Lucasfilm woman
        gave a greater impression of distance...).  Neither even
        tried to imply that they were dead---or that they were coming
        soon.
        
        	/dave

    Has anyone heard anything new on the release of Return... on
    video tape. A tape dealer told me several months ago that he
    had recieved info from CBS/FOX that it would be released in
    late Feb or Mar 86.
    
    I haven't heard anymore about this. My kids are driving me nuts.
    
    					Dick
    

    It was supposed to be released on Feb 21, but I have yet to see
    a copy of it either.
    
    --- jerry

My fiance and I watched a tape of it yesterday at the Video Plus in Framingham.
They took it off part-way thru because someine wanted to rent it. (Grrr.)

It's out!!

Time to join that Columbia tape club, How's that work MartyJ?  Are they original
manufaturer tapes or repro's by Columbia?  For example, I am part of the 
Columbia record and tape club and on all of the albums I buy, either on purpose
or for lack of sending the card in, the jacket states something like "Produced
by Columbia".

Dan

    
    Try Lechmere's in Framingham; they had two copies (I rented one
    of em!). 
    
    It's GREAT!!  Lot's of fun, chills and thrills, etc.
    
    ******* Semi-spoiler follows ***************
    
    
    
    How can they have a sequal to this?? Everything was wrapped up,
    and finished off so nicely?
    
    Bob
    

	There wouldn't be a sequel.. There are 3 different Star Wars
	trilogies..  Before Luke, Luke, and After Luke. (to simplify 
	things.. :-))

							mike

    
    A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....
    
    Where did Lucas come up with this story?  Does it have roots in
    mythology (the Force, anyway), or other SF stories, or is it totaly
    concocted by him?  What is the 'whole' story?  Someone replied a
    few notes back that there are three trilogies (a reasonable hpothesis):
    before Luke, Luke, and after Luke.  
    
    Let's speculate on the first trilogy first.  How did it all start?
    There was a galaxy, reasonably peaceful and together.  The Jedi
    knights were the leaders, or at least the guides.  Who was the emporer?
    The emporer in the 'Luke' trilogy was a master of the Dark Side
    of the force.  Perhaps he was a good ruler once and turned bad.
    Neither Obi Wan nor Yoda ever mentioned the emporer when talking
    to Luke, only Darth Vadar... strange isn't it?  Maybe the emporer
    trained Ben (who in turned trained Vadar).
                                                                
    ***    Read no further if you haven't seen the Return Of the Jedi*****
                                                                          
    
    
    The third trilogy doesn't have too much potential for conflict.
     
    The emporer and Vadar are both destroyed, Luke and Lei discover
    their respective ancestries and potential powers, everything seems
    hunky dory!  I was surprised how clean and 'final' the ending
    was.
    
    OK, gang, SPECULATE AWAY!!!!!
    
    Bob
    

I do not think that the Emperor is a 'good gone bad'.  Sounds too much like
Vader; I hope Lucas has something different in mind.  How about, the Emperor
was really an Alien Baddy from far far away?

The Third Trilogy, After Luke, can have several scenarios.  Remember, Vader and
the Emperor are gone, but there is still the rest of the Empire.  Or the trilogy
might be about constructing the Empire's replacement. 

Jim.

    I have no direct information about Lucas's sources, but many things
    about Star Wars have clear ancestors.  For example, the granddaddy
    of all space opera is the Lensman series discussed elsewhere in
    this conference.  In it, a small band of super-competent Lensmen,
    drawn from various species but featuring humans preeminently, work
    to save our Local Group (primarily the Milky Way and Andromeda)
    from the Forces of Evil.  The Lensmen are the agents of the godlike,
    superbly intelligent and beneficent Arisians, who are fighting the
    equally powerful but nasty Edorreans.  Lensmen are endowed by their
    lenses with telepathic powers, and soon develop a sparkling array
    of other superpowers.
    
    In both Lensman and Star Wars, we have an epic, extended battle
    between the Light and the Dark, played out against a backdrop of
    many worlds, with a heady blend of super-technology and discreetly
    re-named magic.  Both have subsidiary heros of nonhuman races, though
    Lucas gets a little more sophisticated that Smith, in that he has
    machine characters and has no races who are purely evil or good.
    In both cases, the heros are a select band (Lensmen/Jedi) serving
    something greater than themselves (the Arisians & galactic civilization
    / the light side of the Force & galactic freedom).
    
    People compared "A New Hope" (aka "Star Wars" before the sequels
    retroactively renamed it) with "The Wizard of Oz."  Both movies
    have a very old folk-theme -- the rather colorless young protagonist
    who goes through his adventures picking up very colorful companions
    with strange powers and abilities.  Going back to Lensman, in it
    and Star Wars, the hero himself picks up assorted superpowers as
    well as superfriends.
    
    For further speculation on origins, consider that the evil Empire
    replaced a good Republic, which sounds a lot like the stereotypical
    picture of Roman history.
    
    Ursula LeGuin once reflected on what people mean when they ask SF
    writers, "Where do you get your ideas."  Part of her answer was,
    "If you mean, do they steal ideas from each other, the answer is
    `Constantly.'"
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Before STAR WARS:
    
    The governmental structure was much like the Roman Republic. If
    I can remember correctly (this was in the prologue to the novel-
    ization of STAR WARS), one of the Senators took power as the
    Emperor. The Jedi Knights were "merely" an elite cadre of peace-
    keepers.
    
    As for after RETURN OF THE JEDI: the suggestion that there is still
    an Empire to deal with is correct. At least, this has been the basic
    idea in Marvel's STAR WARS comic book for the last two and a half
    years.
    
    --- jerry

Path: muscat!decwrl!sun!pitstop!sundc!seismo!uunet!husc6!cmcl2!rutgers!iuvax!
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers
Subject: Oz Wars
Message-ID: <10300007@silver>
Date: 22 Oct 87 15:02:00 GMT
Organization: Indiana University BACS, Bloomington
Lines: 49
Nf-ID: #N:silver:10300007:000:2099
Nf-From: silver.bacs.indiana.edu!commgrp    Oct 22 10:02:00 1987
  
            I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANYMORE, R2
 
    I don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD
OF OZ, but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.   Just for
fun, consider the following: 
 
    STAR WARS has a tin man, a shaggy critter, a scarecrow, a mascot,
Munchkins, good and evil witches, and a kindly old wizard.   Some of
the Oz-like characters in STAR WARS have switched and combined roles
in the recurring SF theme that appearances can be deceiving. 
 
    Luke Skywalker, the central character, is Dorothy.  (Princess Leia
is the good witch, who starts the group on their quest.)  We can think
of Han  Solo  as the Scarecrow, though it is Luke who goes to see the
Wizard (Obi-Wan Kenobi) in search of a brain. 
 
    C3PO and the Wookie are, of course, Tin Man and Cowardly Lion,
although they have traded personalities.  C3PO at first takes a
Dorothy role when he and Toto (R2-D2) land on Tattooine.   (Note that
Toto, not Dorothy, is the bearer of the Ruby Slippers, i.e., Deathstar
plans.) 
 
    Tattooine doesn't LOOK like Kansas, what with Munchkins (Jawas)
and other weird stuff about,  but it's Kansas all the same --
Tattooine is where Luke works on Uncle Owen's rock farm and dreams of
the faraway Space Academy.  (I'm not a musician but much of the STAR
WARS music, especially Luke Skywalker's theme, sounds to me like
variations on "Somewhere Over the Rainbow.") 
 
    Darth Vader is the wicked witch, complete with black outfit,
castle (Deathstar), broomstick (tie-fighter) and an army of lackeys. 
Our heroes penetrate the Deathstar in Oz style, by knocking out some
palace guards and stealing their uniforms. 

    Obi-Wan takes a more active part in the fighting than did The
Great Oz but, like the Wizard, he departs before the final scene,
leaving behind advice to the heroes on how to solve their own
problems.  The good guys prevail, and in the process discover talents
they didn't know they had. 
 
Frank
[email protected]

Path: muscat!decwrl!sun!imagen!atari!portal!cup.portal.com!Isaac_K_Rabinovitch
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: Oz Wars
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 24 Oct 87 19:38:50 GMT
References: <10300007@silver>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 31
XPortal-User-Id: 1.1001.1472
 
    In rec.arts.sf-lovers, Frank ([email protected]) writes:
 
->            I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANYMORE, R2
->
->I  don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD  OF
->OZ but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.   Just for fun,
->consider the following:
->[41 lines of comparisons, all of them quite logical.   That's surely
->a record for this kind of analysis!]

    The only mistake you make is in being too cautious.  George Lucas
has always been very upfront about borrowing from other movies (He
would probably call it maintaining the mythic continuity, or whatever
the "Masks of God" terminology is).  You are the first person I have
heard of who brings in Oz, but it is well known that the Tatooine
scenes are from a John Wayne movie called "The Searchers" (which was
in Kansas or close enough to it); the big ceremony at the end of the
SW I is straight from "The Triumph of Will", and the famous
Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some World War Two film
that is so obscure it does not even make it to the late show. 
 
    Now of which actually detracts from Lucas's achievements.  There
are things I don't like about his movies, but I think the difference
between plagiarism and advancing a genre is largely a matter of
creativity and originality, which Lucas surely has in abundance. 
 
    On the other hand, it's worth pointing out no one would notice
Lucas's borrowings even if weren't so *ostentatious* about it... 
 
Isaac Rabinovitch
Disclaimer:  Just because I think you're wrong, doesn't
             mean I don't think you're a fun person!

Path: muscat!decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!husc6!rutgers!sunybcs!ugcherk
From: [email protected] (Kevin Cherkauer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: Oz Wars
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 26 Oct 87 03:14:39 GMT
References: <10300007@silver> <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected] (Kevin Cherkauer)
Organization: SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science
Lines: 20
 
    In article <[email protected]> Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.
portal.com writes: 

>In rec.arts.sf-lovers, Frank ([email protected]) writes:
>->            I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANYMORE, R2
>->I  don't suggest that STAR WARS deliberately ripped off THE WIZARD  OF
>->OZ but can't help noticing some interesting parallels.
>You're the first person I've heard of
>who brings in Oz, ...
 
    Just as a side note, I have an introductory Anthropology text
(ANTHROPOLOGY: THE EXPLORATION OF HUMAN DIVERSITY by Conrad Phillip
Kottak) that devotes a large section of a chapter about pop culture to
showing that THE WIZARD OF OZ and STAR WARS are really the same film! 
 
    So, Frank, you are not alone in this comparison.
  
 --                               --  Kev  --                                --
                 
..sunybcs!ugcherk                           "Hey, man...What planet is this?"

    Not that "The Wizard of Oz" is original in this respect, either.
    Instead, it is part of a very old tradition of fairy tales involving
    a protagonist who collects weirdly talented sidekicks in the course
    of the adventure, but whose only intrinsic talents are moral ones
    like kindness, common sense, and courage.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Path: muscat!decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!jade!ig!uwmcsd1!bbn!gatech!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
From: [email protected] (Jay Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: Oz Wars
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 26 Oct 87 16:58:44 GMT
References: <10300007@silver> <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected] (Jay Smith)
Organization: Crop Science Dept., North Carolina State University
Lines: 15
 
    In article <[email protected]> Isaac_K_Rabinovitch@cup.
portal.com writes:

>and the famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is straight from some WW II 
>movie that's so obscure it doesn't even make it to the late show.
 
    DAM BUSTERS, a WWII film about the RAF's gallant efforts to blow
away Nazi dams.  I can't fill in the details, since I've never seen
it.  I have read that much of the dialogue from the STAR WARS Death
Star Trench scenes is lifted straight from this film.  Has anyone seen
it? 
 
Jay Smith                     uucp:     ...!mcnc!ncsuvx!ncspm!jay
Domain:	[email protected]    internet: jay%[email protected]

                                                                            
    My first thought for this was "633 Squadron" - a film about RAF Mosquitos
    bombing a V2 Rocket fuel factory (or it could have been a Heavy
    Water factory) in a Norwegian Fjord. In fact they have to hit an
    overhanging rock with special bombs, and it falls on the factory.
       
    But neither 633 Squadron, nor the "Dam Busters" has German fighters in
    persuit. I think 633 Squadron is a closer fit though. 
                                       
       
    Ken

    I think the linkage to "Dam Busters" was the need to release the
    bomb at an exact altitude, speed and distance from the dam, the
    idea being for the bomb to strike the dam(gently), sink to the bottom of
    the resevoir and then explode. 

    Actually, what reminded me of THE DAM BUSTERS when I first saw
    STAR WARS was the fighters travelling down the Death Star trench
    to release the bombs being similar to the bombers in TDB flying
    along the river to bomb the dam.
    
    --- jerry

Path: muscat!decwrl!labrea!rutgers!nysernic!itsgw!batcomputer!cornell!
From: [email protected] (Ronald J Wanttaja)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers,rec.arts.movies
Subject: Re: The Dog-Fight-in-the-Trench (was Re: Oz Wars)
Summary: Not the Damn :-) Busters
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 28 Oct 87 02:28:32 GMT
References: <10300007@silver> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
Organization: Boeing Aerospace Corp., Seattle WA
Lines: 20
 
    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Jay Smith)
writes: 

> In article <[email protected]> [email protected] writes:
> >and the famous Dog-Fight-in-the-Big-Trench is
> >straight from some WW II movie that's so obscure it doesn't even make
> >it to the late show.
> 
> THE DAM BUSTERS, a WWII film about the RAF's gallant efforts to blow
> away Nazi dams.  I can't fill in the details, since I've never seen
> it.  I have read that much of the dialogue from the Trench scenes is
> lifted straight from this film.  Has anyone seen it?
 
    Not THE DAM BUSTERS - The movie refered to is 633 SQUADRON, whence
a squadron of British attack bombers must fly down a Norweigan Fjord
to bomb a German heavy-water factory.  Most of the movie is
meoldramatic tripe, but tune in for the last half hour, during the big
attack.  I do not know if dialogue was copied, but Lucas sure copied
some camera shots! 
 
Ron Wanttaja
(ssc-vax!wanttaja)
  

    re .26 to .29:
    
    Now that you mention it, the idea of using the 2 spotlights coinciding
    on the ground to judge correct altitude for the Moehne & Eder dam-
    busting reminds me of the CRT display as Luke releases his 'bombs'. 
                                                              
    							Don

re: Dam Busters

Wow!  I remember almost 25 years ago building a model of a Mosquito
bomber that had a depth-charge like bomb slung under it on a rotating
mount that was supposed to spin the bomb up so that it would skip along
the surface of the water till it hit the inner face of the dam, then
sink and detonate well down on the inner surface of the dam.  Was that
based on something actually used?

/Dave

    Re -.1, Certainly sounds like the DAM BUSTERS! The mission was to
    break dams which were, I believe, being used for power generation.
    They were very heavily defended. The solution was to bomb at night,
    skipping bombs along the water until they sank near the dam face.
    Lacking today's technology, e.g., airborne radar, they tested and
    successfully used the technique of shining two spotlights below
    each plane in the mission. They were at the correct altitude if
    the lights met at a point.
    
    - Richard

    
    The planes that did the Dam buster bombing were Lancasters - and
    the bouncing bombs were barrel shaped. They gauged the right height
    by the beams and the right distance to bomb by triangulating on
    the towers at the ends of the dam. Apart from the odd bit of
    poetic licence the film is fairly accurate.  
                                                 
    633 Squadron however is entirely fictional - and definitely the
    Start Wars model. I think they even had Red Wing, Blue wing and
    "went in" in threes. Mosquitoes are 2 seaters and Lancasters are
    more like a British version of a Flying Fortress. Must admit though
    I don't recall the co-pilot being an R2 unit!                           
                                       
    Ken

    	There will be a Creation convention in Cambridge, MA, in honor 
    of the tenth anniversary of STAR WARS on November 14 and 15, from
    11 a.m. to 7 p.m. each day.  
           
    	The Convention will be held in the Marriott Cambridge Hotel,
    located at 2 Cambridge Center.  The usual convention items and events
    will be there, naturally devoted to the STAR WARS trilogy.  The
    guest of honor is Peter Mayhew, who played Chewbacca the Wookie.
    
        Tickets can be bought at several Boston area SF merchandise
    store locations, or by writing to this address:
    
                       CREATION CONVENTIONS
                       145 Jericho Turnpike
    		       Mineola, NY  11501	 
                                         
    	Tickets are $10 per person in advance, or $13 per person at
    the door.
             
    	If anyone wants to know more about this convention, please write
    to me at DICKNS::KLAES, but please be *specific* about what you
    wish to know.  I have no affiliation whatsoever with Creation.
    
    	Larry
    

    I'm posting this here . It seems the best place . 
    
    Question :-
    
    How old was Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars ?
    
    During the conversation he had with Luke in his house/cave/dwelling
    , he (I think) admitted to fighting in the Clone Wars with Luke's
    father , "Oh , before you were born" .
    The way in which this was said , to me , implied that it was not
    *that* long before .
    
    Also , if Lucas (or whoever) *does* film the first three parts , and
    they do involve Ben and Darth , how would they link in with C3P0 
    and R2D2 , if the story is from their perspective ?
    
    These may be silly points , and are a result of reading 34.* and
    376.* in one go . But I *am* curious .
    
                                          
    No. 3
    Has any character , in any other film , been played by three actors
    at the same time , in the same movie ?
         
    
    John J
    

    re .36  In Star Wars (4) the droids were part of the princesses
    retinue. Perhaps she inherited them from her mother ? They don't
    seem to be any specific age.

    re .36 & .37  When C3PO is trying to figure out why R2 is acting
    so strangely in ANH, he says that "Captain Antilles was our last
    master."  Has anyone else noticed that the only one of Luke's wingmen
    who consistently survives is Wedge Antilles?  Hmm...  He's probably
    too young to be the "master" that ties the 'droids into the earlier
    movies, but perhaps his father could be?...  And if Wedge is their
    former master, shouldn't Luke give them back to him?  :-)
         I've believed for a while that Wedge Antilles will become
    important in some way, since he is a thread that carries through
    all the movies, insignificant though he might be at the moment.
    Anyone else agree?
    
    Brian W.

I agree.  I've long thought that Captain Antilles played a major part in the
first three stories.  At least in the original outline, where C3PO and R2D2
were the continuing characters through whom we view the saga....

Susan

    	I WANT MORE STAR WARS!!!!!!
    
    	Come on, Lucas, those movies made you and now you are forgetting
    us.  Sorry to say, but everything else other than SW, ESB, and RoJ
    has SUCKED!!!  Star Wars was my favorite movie, and I'd pay anything
    to see the other movies produced even if they were only half as
    good. 
    			You're losing us!!!
    							-john

    Actually, I preferred "THX 1138" and "American Grafitti" to "Return of 
    the Jedi".  If the further Star Wars movies are in the same vein 
    as RotJ, then I'm not particularly interested.  Look at the 
    trouble he had in "Willow" with coming up with something 
    original.  It can only be worse if he makes more movies set in a world
    he's already explored.
    /jlr

    I and I think lots of kids would like to see some more star wars..
    Chris

    	Simplistic plots and endless space battles can get pretty boring
    after a while for some us, anyway.
                  
    	Larry
    

	The "Bouncing Bomb" was invented by Barnes Wallace
	The dams were protected by torpedo nets, hence the need to 
	get at the dam from the surface. The bomb was much like a
	depth charge both in shape and exploding at a preset depth.

	633 Squadron was not entirely fictional.  The Squadron did
	exist "Mosquitos" and the film was based on an actual raid
	beyond that I admit that one should not take the film as 
	fact.

	CJA

    So has anyone heard whether there will in fact be more Star Wars
    episodes?  Or Indiana Jones stories?  I saw each of them at the flicks
    several times plus bought vidiotapes of all of them because they're
    such nice work, unsurpassed even yet.  (tho Big Trouble In Little
    China also had some nice effects)
    
    						=maggie

    I've heard nothing concrete about any more Star Wars films, and
    given that it's been six years since the last one, I suspect that
    we'll never see another one.
    
    As for Indiana Jones, I suspect the iminent INDIANA JONES AND THE
    LAST CRUSADE will be the last one, though rumors are floating
    around that, as River Phoenix has a bit part in this one as a
    young Indy, that possibly he'll star in future films, set earlier
    than the extant ones.
    
    --- jerry

    "...and the Last Crusade"??????  Whenzit coming?

    Starting at a theater near you on Memorial Day weekend.

    About a year ago Terry Erdmann (a floating movie publicist) was
    working for Lucasfilms and promoting Willow.  He said then that
    George Lucas had publicly said he would begin Star Wars 1-3 after
    the next Indiana Jones movie was out.

    It might be true.

    Nowadays Erdmann is working for Star Trek V, and is not so up-to-date
    on Lucasfilm stuff....

    Susan

    re: .47  "It's he-ere!."
    
    See BOMBE::MOVIES note 2263
               
    						Don

        "If people want booms, we're going to give them booms."

           - George Lucas on why there are sounds in the vacuum of 
             space in the STAR WARS films.