Conference noted::bicycle

I don't buy water bottles. I get given them at cyclo-sportif events.


Smug of FV


PS  Actually there is a wide variation in water bottle quality. I got one
this year which is excellent: softer plastic makes it easy to squeeze, wider
nozzle than usual gives a powerful jet of water, plus it's in hot pink to
match my new shorts.

     Hi Graham. You're right... It's not exactly up there with figuring
    out the meaning of life.
    
     I have Giro's Bottle Rockets... They're just okay (especially for the
    money). At 7 pounds (I think that's what they weigh too) they should
    fill themselves.
    
     I like the standard (crummy traditional) bottle with the wide nozzle.
    Pretty much a dispensible item and I treat them that way. You usually
    end up with so many at the end of the year (race hand-outs) that I get
    badgered to get rid of them (cupboard space consumption) or look for
    excuses myself.
    
     Chip

I like white bottles and have black metal cages.  The metal/paint on the cages
wears off on the bottles and makes them look dirty.  Anybody know how to clean
that kind stuff off the bottles?

The paint/metal stuff also gets on my hands and they look dirty.

Does anybody know any cage/bottle combinations that really work?

    re: .-1: use a plastic cage.
    
    Graham,
      Are you sure you don't have a Scottish bottle cage?  You know,
    a bit tight?
    
    A couple of good lines I heard about the bottle rockets when they
    were introduced:
    
    Fellow walks into a bike shop with a water bottle and says, "Give
    me one of these, only more expensive."
    
    OR, "Looks like a solution looking for a problem." (my own copyrighted
    line)
    
    ed

Just found a new bottle t'other day - standard dual-bottle size, but the
top was called a ShowerCap (tm) - if you pull the stopper out 1/2 way, 
there are six little vents that shoot the contents sort of out and 
sideways (good for dousing yourself, or ammonia for 6 doggies 
simultaneously); if you pull the top all the way out it's a standard 
single stream from the center. Way too kool, so I had to have one. 
'Sides, it was purple, wife'll let me buy durn near anything if it's 
purple - haven't put this to the stress test by looking for a purple 
Merlin or nothin'... :-)
                                      ken

     This may be insipid on the surface, but to cure the "ugly bottle"
    syndrome buy unpainted cages (or titanium ones) or go with a com-
    posite cage (they work well with everything).
    
     Otherwise bail out on the cages and use your shirt...
    
     Chip

    I seem to be the only one I know that completely despises bottles with
    the large valve.  With the small valve, it is easier to control how
    much liquid you want.  With the large valve, too much comes out at a
    time, and there isn't enough pressure to get it far enough back in the
    mouth.  It just comes right out, fills up the space between my lips
    and teeth, and I swallow half with the other half pouring down my chin. 
    Kind of a dribble glass effect.
    
    It also seems harder and harder to find bottles with the small valve in
    stores.  I hope I'm not a dying breed...doomed to someday be the first
    person to ever drown on a bicycle.
    
    -Steve

No one has yet mentioned the dread of winter riding. Freezing water in the 
bottles. I have a pair of black bottles just for the occasion. They have the wide 
valve, which I've found, doesn't freeze as fast as the narrow valve.

Clear bottles are my favorite. Not only do they show you how much water you have
left in them but it's easier to see how clean the inside is when you need
to clean them. (ie. Gatorade scum)

What about those "Camel Back" jobs. How anyone can have something on their back
while riding is beyond me. I haven't seen the pro's using them. Maybe `Greg' 
will come out with a new version "Camel Stomach".

T

    For those of us who ride in the tubular-glue-melting asphalt-softening
    heat of Texas summers, Camel-backs are almost required equipment. In
    fact, at Hotter'n Hell this Saturday, there'll be so many Camel-backs
    out there, you'd think it was a caravan going to Marakeesh.
    
    GS

    I have a Camel-Back, but I can't use it on hilly rides.  Not because
    of the weight, but because the valve opening is too small to take a
    good pull of water between gasps of air.
    
    r�

    There were dozens of camelbacks on BMB and last week's RAAM Open.
    
    ed

    re .8
    
    I put flaming-hot water in my bottles in the winter.  By the time I
    need that first swig, it's just cooled down enough to drink.  It
    usually holds off the freezing for about an hour and a half to 2 hours.  
    By then I'm usually frozen myself and am heading for home. 
    
    Steve
    

    
    	RE:CAMELBACK
    
    	      	The Camelback comes in insulated and non insulated
    versions. It may not freeze as quickly.
    
    	Roger

     Re; .8 -- Hey, was that a LeMond bashing note?  :-)
    
          T
        Chip 

RE< .13  Ya ;-) couldn't resist.

Camel backs....

You mean people really use them....

Come on, your joking, right? Why are they so popular? 

To me, they would be uncomfortable, heavy, a bother and uncomfortable.

Oh wait I forgot the aero-seatpost factor. You must be able to descend hills 
around 65mph with one on I bet.

Tom

>Come on, your joking, right? Why are they so popular? 
>
>To me, they would be uncomfortable, heavy, a bother and uncomfortable.

    The straps kind of dig in.  They aren't as wide as one thinks would be
    optimal.  The pouch doesn't feel like that much weight on the back, 
    and it is soft and conformant.  Also, it fits in the valley formed by
    the spine.
    
    The plusses include: you don't have to reach to drink, which is an annoyance
    factor in a time-trial activity such as a triathlon, and something you
    put off too long on extended climbs (at least I do).  I once climbed Mt.
    Mitchell starting from 2000' (29 miles of climbing up to 6684') and
    purposely used one, because it allowed me to keep my hands on the
    handlebar, brake hoods, wherever.  It worked: I stayed much more hydrated.  
    
    RAAM riders use them a lot during the unsupported segments.
    They keep the drink cool and have large capacity.  I have bike friends
    who use them in place of waterbottles on the most casual-seeming
    training rides, though, and I think there's not much advantage in that.
    
>Oh wait I forgot the aero-seatpost factor. You must be able to descend hills 
>around 65mph with one on I bet.

    Their recent ads claim that their product makes you more aerodynamic! :-)
    
    -john

    
    	RE:.15
    
    		The main reason that people use them is they hold 70
    	ounces of liquid. The next is the ease of use. They are popular 
    	with MTB'rs because 7-11's are few and far between out in the
    	woods.
    		Roger

     Okay, since people are avoiding the real question, I'll bite...
    
     Do they come in titanium?   :-)
    
       Chip

    On *long* trips (mtn or road bike) I bring a fanny pack with an
    ordinary 2 liter (67 oz, same as Camelback) soda bottle of water to
    supplement water bottles on the frame.  I'm sure the fanny pack isn't
    as aerodynamic as a camel back, but I sweat like a pig and can't
    stand something covering my back.  Besides, if you're on the hoods and
    not bent over, the airflow is already broken up anyhow.  When the water
    is done, I can (properly) dispose of the 2 liter bottle (or get 5 cents
    for it) and if I want, put the scrunched up fanny pack in an underseat
    wedge pack.  The only problem is that it's tricky to get at the 2 liter
    bottle while riding.  .02 kb

    
    	Nashbar has a similar thing to the Camelback except it mounts
    on the waist, holds 30 oz. and it is pressurized (comes with a pump).
    I thought maybe two of these, one for power mixes (cytomax,ultra fuel
    etc) and one for spring water. Also the tube is insulated.
    
    	Roger

     There is also a model that rides on the back of the seatpost/seat 
    tube. 
    
     Chip

    
    
      You know whats most depressing about water bottles?
    The fact that the weight difference between a full one and an
    empty one is close to greater the weight one can save by purchasing
    every Ti part made.

So ya might as well go back to the 60's when they were drilling holes in
everything to save weight.  Costs about the same eventually and you get
a new bike out of the deal.  :-)

Drill holes in your water bottles and you save a cuppla pounds, too.

ed

    
    	Since this note has latent rathole tendencies aleady I'll
    put this in.
    	In the latest Dirtrag a column called the Old Coot put out
    this challenge. It is a test to see if a lighter bike is worth the
    bucks. A hypothesis is that the cheaper way may be to simply lose
    some pounds of body weight. Go out on a circuit that you are familiar
    with and have two full water bottles. Time yourself on the circuit.
    Remove a water bottle and do the circuit again and time yourself again.
    If the time improves then you are fit and ready to start making the
    bike lighter. If the time doesn't improve then the time and effort
    should be spent working on yourself.
    
    	8*) Roger

That seems like a horribly unscientific test to me, but then the whole issue
of how weight affects speed is very messy. Everyone would accept that lighter
is faster but how much does it really affect us in the range of weights we're
actually talking about?

It seems to me that a few pounds here or there won't make any difference on
a flat course, since 80-90% of one's effort is absorbed by air resistance.

On a hill of, say, 5% or steeper, your speed is slowed down to the extent
that air resistance becomes much less significant and most of your effort
goes into acquiring potential energy (ie height). In that case, a change of
weight of 1kg in a bike/rider combination of, for example, 90kg will lead to
a change in speed up the hill of just over 1%. 


Rod

     We also know that weight (more of it) assists in decents so is
    there an optimal weight (rider and machine)? Yup, probably a million
    variations and variables (e.g. body types, etc...).
    
     I would say that weight does make a difference on flats and absolutely
    on climbing. Just to simply say it does or doesn't is erroneous.
    Distance is a critical factor on both flats and climbing. And the
    efficiency cannot be factored exponentially. Length of climb, rate of
    climb, weight of machine, angle of climb, weight of rider, V02 max
    processing, rider weight to muscle ratio, anaerobic and aerobic
    thresholds, fatigue indecies...
    
     Anyone want to take a stab at charting this stuff????? :-)
    
       Chip

I once heard of a product that was called something like "instant water".  I
forget how it was packaged.  All you did was put some in a container, add
water and presto!  Come to think of it you would not need much packaging at all.
Send me $5 and I'll send you a sample (via EMAIL!)...

re .-n? ago

I don't like composite cages. 

Speaking of weight vs speed...

I was wondering. Is the pound off of the person equal to the pound off the bike?

Or is it more like a pound off the person is 1/5th a pound off the bike.

It seems like the pound off the bike feel like 5 pounds off of the person.

I do know that the effect of losing weight off the bike is not going to give you
the performance of losing, lets say ten pounds, but it does metally feel a lot
faster.

Here is one true equation...

The greater the extra weight is on the person, the more he looks to the bike
for the answer.

I for one am guilty as charged. ;-)

Tom

    Being a 190 pond cyclist on a composite frame, I've tried to make my
    size work for me, but can't EVER see where sie helps.  True, I do
    go downhill faster, but  how many times have you ever tried to drop
    somebody on a downhill?  It is MUCH more difficult than pulling away
    from someone on an uphill.
    
    It is a good thing I enjoy cycling because I'll never make any money at
    it!
    
    r�
    
    

     Tom, a similar rule along those lines is people lack ability
    often try to compensate with equipment... I'll admit to my being
    in that category...
    
     Chip

    >> go downhill faster, but  how many times have you ever tried to drop
    >> somebody on a downhill?    
    
    Chiappucci tries it all the time...  :*)
    
    Dear Mr.Moderator,
    
    	Can you please rename this note to the Rathole Topic? But no one
    has yet given me answer on why there still isn't a water bottle
    standard...
    
    Graham.
    

     My, my... Graham, I'e never known you to be so critical/testy :-)
    
     If I were to do a quick logical analysis, it's probably the same
    reasons why you use metrics and we use U.S. Standard, why there are
    50 hertz/60 hertz appliances. 
    
     You simply have to modernize over there :-)
    
     Chip
    
     P.S. Okay, I've taken cover... Please shoot now.

>     If I were to do a quick logical analysis, it's probably the same
>    reasons why you use metrics and we use U.S. Standard...

    But U.S. Standard is metric.  It has been since 1976 or so.
    Inches and pounds and all that are technically called U.S. Customary.

    Is there a metrologist in the house?

    -Jeff Bell

If we can build bicycles that weigh less than 15 pounds and put men on the moon;
why can't we make water bottles that don't taste like plastic?

Barry 

     No kiddin' (on the U.S. on the metric system)... I must be caught
    in a parallel universe (maybe a little less than parallel). I still
    buy veggies and fruits by the lb., "petrol" by the gallon, lumber
    by the inch, etc...
    
     :-)..........
    
     Chip  

    	And what about the irony?
    
    	That we North Americans actually measure the weight of a titanium
    	frame in * P-O-U-N-D-S * !?!?!?!?!?
    
    	What a friggin' calamity!!!
    
    	Sure, measure the seat tube in centimeters, and then weigh the
    	entire frame in pounds!  Absolutely disgusting...

    
    
    	Ah! But do you want how backward you Americans are? You may weigh
    your expensive Ti frame in pounds, but you don't buy them in pounds, do
    you? DOLLARS! Pah! Monopoly money! Get yourself out of the rut that
    you'vr dug yourself into and move into the age of technology...
    
    	By God! What a surprise, I've managed to turn this into an
    Anti-American battle. Now, how do I fit Lemond into this...
    
    	Anti flak jacket at the ready...  :*)
    
    Graham.

For the afterlife, perhaps we could design an ultimate personal hell for 
Graham - I'd imagine someplace where Graham had (for all eternity) Greg 
as his personal butler, serving up endless (non-metric) quantities of
tea (or perhaps coffee?) in Ti tea-cups, along with limitless quantities 
of TacoBell tacos, all the while Greg complaining to him about his 
early-season form.... :-)
                                ken

     I like the conept Ken... But wouldn't it be better if Graham was
    Greg's personal servant?     :-)
    
      Chip

    
    
    	You guys still don't understand my country's character, do you?
    That would be my own personal heaven! A Scotsman's personal hell would
    be somewhere where he couldn't complain about anything! S'pose we can
    always complain about having nothing to complain about...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    OR IF Graham were Greg's domestique...
    
    ach,
    
    ed

    
    
    Get serious! Since when did domestiques get domestiques...  :*)
    
    Graham.

     Nice groin shot Graham... Ouch!
    
         Chip

    ba-dum bum
    
    :-)

    Well, in Graham's version of Hell, he is Greg's domestique.
    In Greg's version, Greg is Larry Fignon's domestique.  :-)
    
    ed

	Who is this greg person ? Is he anything to do with the French
	newspaper ?

	jimb...

    	Ummm,
    
    	You're joking, yes?
    
    	Actually, judging from his performance in the TdF, you ARE right.
    
    	Who is this Greg dude? (guy)

     Awww, come on you guys. You're hurting my feelings. I wouldn't
    toss Fignon a dime for a restroom if he was peeing in his pants
    on mainstreet at noon, but... I know I'm not worthy to hold the
    guy's food bag when it comes to cycling :-)
    
     Chip_who_can_appreciate_an_American_hero (and a French one)

and now, back to the program...

>    I seem to be the only one I know that completely despises bottles with
>    the large valve.

well, now there are two of us. i can't stand the big nozzles (they're too big
to call a valve.) for all the same reasons you stated. 

and anotha thing. i have a specialzed bottle with the large nozzle and after a
month of use the tab at the front that you use to open the cap has broken off
and the piece of plastic that holds the cap to the bottle has broken too.  these
bottles stink. i have another bottle (novara brand?) that leaks around the joint
between the cap and the bottle. what's going on? why did they have to change
something so simple that didn't need any changing? what's so hard about making a
simple water bottle i wonder? especially since the ones you used to get a while
back (REG brand?) worked fine. it's like a big step backward.

boy, could you ever imagine someone could get worked up over a water bottle?

flame off... to be fair i do like the tall bottles. i carry two. talk about
weight though. i don't know how i manage to turn the pedals with all that weight
on my bike. ;^)

    Its funny but I alway thought to be a "Cool" bike rider you had to
    dribble water all over the place when you took a drink.  :-)
    
    Alan

>>    Its funny but I alway thought to be a "Cool" bike rider you had to
>>    dribble water all over the place when you took a drink.  :-)
    
    Or your a 3 year old...  :*)
    
    Now my children! Lead me not into temptation! Do not try to lead me
    astray by making me denounce Brother Lemond! OK, just a little bit
    then...  I hate him, I hate him, I hate him, I hate him! There, at
    least I managed to do it constructively and with dignity...  :*)
    
    Graham.
    
    P.S Where do water bottles come into this note?  :*)

    Well I thought I'd sign back into BICYCLE with a big thankyou to
    the previous 51 notes for bringing some light into my second morning 
    back at work.

    
    Well, now, about those wide nozzles...  It's true the Specialized
    moderately wide spouts are not too sturdy, but while they hold up,
    they work (squirt) pretty well.  Another type I like is the Cannondale
    spout.  I've also gotten other bottles with even wider spouts but some
    sort of aerating design that just doesn't work at all.
    
    -> For normal use, wide or narrow spouts is a matter of, umm, taste.
       But for nutritional liquids, let me assure you, a wide spout is
       almost essential, especially those you mix up from powder.  I'm
       not talking about electrolyte replacement drinks; I'm talking about
       Ultra Energy, Exceed Nutritional Drink, Unipro Pro-Optimizer, etc.
    
       These drinks are thick - maybe not milk-shake viscosity - but thick
       enough to be troublesome for tiny nozzles in the best of circumstances
       (when well mixed).  When not quite fully mixed, they can clog the
       nozzle in a pedal stroke.
    
    -john

    Here's a water bottle story.
    
    A freind finished a tough ride on a hot day and not being a
    "nutritional drink" type of person grabbed an unused water
    bottle and squirted it over his head.
    
    Well, I suppose you can use your imagination for the rest
    of the story.
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    Well, here's how I learned to make do with 1 water bottle...
    Whilst descending the Col du Soulor last week, I hit a well-concealed
    pothole at speed. My natural first reaction was "Oh ****, time to
    rebuild the wheels. Then I noticed that the rear bottle had made a
    bid for freedom by hopping from its cage and rolling off into the
    roadside vegetation. Where it probably still is to this day. The wheels
    were fine.
       So if anyone should find a Specialized Yosemite Walkbottle, which
    appears to be identical to any Specialized cycle bottle, half way up
    the eastern side of the Soulor, it's mine.
    
    ---Alan