Conference noted::bicycle

I've seen others doing this type of workout. Not my idea of a good training
procedure. I think it puts too much stress on the knee, plus with the cold 
weather you really have to make sure your warmed up. You don't see too many
pro coaches pushing this type of training any more. It's more like weights
indoors and spinning out doors.

I'm sure it did the same as a weight room workout just be sure to back off if 
you are getting pain in the joints.

I have ridden a 42-17 fixed gear. It was just right for spinning on the flats
and attacking hills that would normally have me looking for a 42-21. Still it
wasn't at any time putting me in a position were I had to grind up a hill.
I never had to worry about cooling off on a down hill either. It was a real
fixed gear, no freewheeling.

If the someone that I sold the fixed gear wheel to doesn't start using it I 
might have to buy it back from him ;-)

Tom

    John, I'd hate you to base anything on my early season plans.  As you
    are well aware I just play at this game.  But since you asked...
    
    I don't like the cold and wet so I'll content myself with Gym work
    until mid Feb.  I'll be going out as the weather permits but I won't be
    relying on it for training. I intend to split the next 6 weeks into 2
    weeks Aerobic/Anerobic workouts (on the *!#$$%@#! Versa-climber) and
    then 4 weeks weights work (with Aerobic training).  All this done 4
    times a week (all I can afford time wise).
    
    The first 3-4 weeks on the bike will be fixed wheel 42x17.  Keeping on
    the flat and (perforce) alone.  I really enjoy fixed wheel and it sets
    you up for the summer and this year I hope it will clean up some of the
    good/bad done by the weights.
    
    After that I'll try to do a month of pretty big distances to get long
    term stamina and loose a bit of bodyfat.  And then It'll be sunny
    enough to enjoy cycling :-)
    
    To answer your posting.  That seems like a very high gear to be pushing
    this early in the season - sure you will be doing some good weight
    training - but how are your knees ?
    
    r

    I would never consider such high gearing @ this time of the year 
    unless I have never tapered off during off season then it could 
    mean burnout early perhaps by summer . 
    Our club training rides do not even allow the use of larger chain
    rings till end of feb on our critereum training sessions.
      The approach I found thats good for me are:
    1. spin @ 110 smooth as silk for the first 1,000 mi. ( dec-feb)
       prefferably with fixed gears @ 42x15 . this will hone out 
    your finnese , grace even .
    2.rollers & weights
       30 min roller warm up for smooth and control in acceleration.
       Theres nothing worse than being next to strong but sloopy
       rider next to you during a sprint.
    3.weight training for power, reps. not heavy weights at first to 
    tone and strengthen unused muscles. The exercise I know are
    squats with the weights on my shoulder , squating to sitting posistion
    not any lower , curls and leg lifts , its also good to do upper and
    stomach strengthening for the hills .
      If there's any other exercises please let us know.
    I realy believe on the idea of better slow and weaker than be injured
    specially during training.
    
    regards
    Ed

    
    Thanks so far for your replies!
    
      - Certainly one does need to be warmed up (muscles) before
        such a work-out.  I could have used another 5 miles' warm-up.
    
      - My mileage at this time of year is lower than at peak - last
        week it was 415 miles.  In this climate, you really can cycle
        through the winter, though, meaning that some of the assumptions
        of "starting from 0 mileage" don't hold here.  What are the temps
        like out at WLDWST?  Isn't that the Bay Area?  
    
      - This work-out is supposed to replicate "squats on the bike."
        But I think my friends probably were thinking of a lower gear
        than they put me in.  (My gearing is different from theirs.)
    
      - Yes, I've always heard that fixed-gear biking and spinning
        is good training at this time of year.  When I've tried it 
        (simulated fixed gear - no coasting), it did seem to have 
        real benefit.
    
      - High here yesterday was about 58�F - but in really cold weather, 
        one might not try this work-out.
    
      - Gym work does toughen one mentally.  :-)
    
    -john

>        is good training at this time of year.  When I've tried it 
>        (simulated fixed gear - no coasting), it did seem to have 
>        real benefit.
    
Just a nit, John, but my experience has been that 'no coasting', no
matter how religiously you try to do it (even if you believe you've
succeeded!) does NOT simulate riding a fixed gear. Like, f'r instance,
on downhills where you find out just how fast those ol' pedals REALLY
want to turn in that gear!

Your mileage, of course, may vary. In fact I *know* your mileage varies
from mine by a couple orders of magnitude :-)....
                              ken

    
    Ken, you're right.  Downhill spinning with a freewheel can't 
    simulate the effect of a fixed gear.  Even so, if you are honest,
    you can really get to bouncing trying to keep up the cadence.
    
    Of course, what I did was try to pedal just fast enough to keep
    pressure on the drivetrain - so technically, that would mean I was
    adding force to the bike, whereas on a fixed gear, you can let the
    bike spin your feet, while trying to use them to brake.  I rode
    the brakes on downhills to keep the rpm's from going sky-high.
    
    -john

    
    
    John, I'm having sympathetic kneecap pain thinking of your ride!  Sue
    and I managed to ride tuesday here (about 38-40 degrees).   We manged to
    keep lower gears (except when my #@$%^$# front derailleur decided to
    jam on a longish uphill) and kept our avg speed to around 17 to 18
    mph...seemed a reasonable workout for us.  On the below 40 degree days
    I've taken up rowing on an Ergo II here.  I did that after we took one
    of our colleagues (who is on the U.S. Rowing Team) on a ride!  His
    conditioning was amazing!!  I'm using his spare heart rate monitor now
    and while I easily hit 190+ beats/minute on the rower I could only
    muster 170 on that uphill stuck in my 53!!
    
    Cheers (?),
    
    Steve

     Re; Punishment and weight loss... I don't think I'm telling
         anyone news, but the most efficient method is run around
         65% of max or under. Anything higher (on the average bear)
         will involve glycogen or chemical stores for fuel...
    
         I'm on the trainer right now (first week) doing small gear
         spinning for the first week or two (rpm's running 105-110+)
         for a half hour. In a week or two I'll be  up to an hour,
         but will not go beyond this on the trainer as will lose
         my mind.
    
         I will try and get out on the ATB.
    
         I will move into some sprint and interval work in 3 weeks.
    
         I'm also doing light squats right now and light leg presses.
         I will progress in weight as soon as my body stops screaming
         at me! (I'm using a 100lbs. right now)
    
         I work some stomach and upper body stuff as well. 3 different
         types of sit-ups for the stomach.
    
         I'm doing dips and 3 different types of pull-ups. I own a Solo-
         Flex and it makes it nice and easy to do this stuff...
    
         I too am in the process of dropping some weight. Fortunately
         (more like miraculously) I only goaned 11lbs. over last season's
         racing weight.
    
         Oh yeah, I've scaled my caloric intake and food type way back.
         I'm also expending energy being jealous of Eric's Ergos...
    
           Chip

    > I'm using his spare heart rate monitor now
    > and while I easily hit 190+ beats/minute on the rower I could only
    > muster 170 on that uphill stuck in my 53!!
    
    190 ! 
    
    Just check you're still alive...

    John,

    How are your legs today? 
    
    ********
    
    I am convinced of this training with the heart rate monitor.  I plan to
    do sprints, intervals and endurance rides with rest! I plan to do the
    same all season, but just add intensity.

    For instance, yesterday I did six intervals, each uphill, for a total
    90 minute ride.  Each interval was 4-6 minutes, and I kept the
    heart rate between 180-186.  For the most part, it stayed around
    150 for the rest portions.  Of course, the high around 20 degrees with
    wind kept me wanting to go up! (This was on the MTB)

    I also plan to do some running in order to possibly add to the
    endurance days or when I can't get in a ride.

    john    

    Last time I hit over 190 was while running. I barely missed getting
    clipped by a driver who decided to take a right turn into my path.
    I was chugging along at 165 and after this incident, I hit 193.
    Amazing what good ole 'drenlin will do for you.
    
    John

    
    RE: .10
    
    John, my legs & knees feel fine today.  I made sure not to strain
    the knees yesterday, though I came close.  But... I went to bed at
    7pm last night - don't know if there's a connection between that and
    the work-out.
    
    -john

    One of the ways Moser trained for the hour record was climbing in
    monster gears at 50rpm, staying in the seat.
    
    Then again, one of the ways Stephen Roche improved his climbing for 
    his impressive mid-80's TdF finishes was by spending lots of time in 
    the mountains spinning small gears.
    
    I don't have much trouble maintaining 9-10mph on the steep in a 
    39-20, in-saddle (for the sake of comparison).
    
    Try everything.  During my best years as a senior I tended to be
    a bit narrow-minded, and I now think my performance suffered for
    that -- I might have spent less time in the bottom half of the 
    top 20 8-{ if I'd been a little more experimental.
    
    As for this winter:
    
    	o Circuit training (weights) M,W,F
    	o Rowing T,Th (I agree with Steve -- for an intense workout
    	  in a short timespan, a Concept II is hard to beat, because
    	  it works upper body as well as lower)
    	o On-road riding whenever conditions are reasonably safe (this
    	  is new for me -- I used to just stay off the bike until March)
    
    I have a trainer, but I've loaned it to my brother.  It was the only
    thing the doctor would let me use last year, recouping from a broken 
    hip, but my first three weeks on the road I was pedaling squares. 
    
    I used to do my first 1000mi each year fixed.  If you need to work on
    pedaling style, this is particularly good.  You also get more out of
    a shorter workout, because you can't stop pedaling.  However, fixed 
    for me is not fun, so I don't do it any more. 
    
    Justin

    Re: Several
    
    Well it's nice to know there's one thing that hasn't changed. Fashions
    come and fashions go, but twiddling (or "spinning" as you say now) a
    small fixed for pre-season training still seems to be the accepted 
    method. 46x19 used to be my favourite. I'd agree with the others,
    pushing those big gears sounds dangerous to me.
    
    Chris

    
    
    I agree.  I feel MUCH more comfortable 'spinning' early in the
    season...back before I became a spud I remember hurting my knees
    pushing too big a gear too early.
    
    I broke 190 bpm again yesterday on that nasty ERGO II...my plan was to
    do 5000 meters in the first 20 minutes..then just 'do what I could' for
    the last 10 minutes.  Well just as I hit my 5000 mark after 20 minutes
    our local rowing team member started rowing next to me...so I finished
    the 30 minutes at 7484!!!  The Heart Monitor was screaming at me!!!
    
    I've found the monitor VERY useful.  After using it for a couple months
    I don't know how I got along without it.
    
    Steve (who IS still alive!)

                                           
    
    Okay John.  I didn't think you would strain your knees, but wondered
    about your leg muscles.  During Nov/Dec I stayed in the small chainring
    most of the time.  Now, I am starting to put in the speedwork, this being
    the first week, and my muscles feel the difference.  I suppose for me,
    the soreness has been an indication of intensity and I want to have a
    certain amount before the rest/spin days.  At this point in the year,
    it doesn't take too much intensity, but my hope would be for that to
    change as the season continues.  For example if 5 spints during one
    ride and 5 intervals during another is enough for the fatigue now, then I
    would hope for perhaps 8 & 8 around March/April.  
    
    Another thing I've done is an extended interval by getting right
    below threshold for as long as I can.  I find myself pushing, starting
    to slack off, and pushing again.  I have done this from 6-12 miles
    during different rides.  It helps to have someone right on my wheel
    "pushing" me along.
    
    john
    

    
    John, I think your scheme sounds quite sensible.  My muscles felt
    fine.  I was half striving for some degree of soreness (indicative
    of muscle-building) the next day, but didn't experience much.  What
    people have been advocating here is
    
       - Spinning On The Bike
       - Weight Training Off The Bike
    
    In a sense, my workout fell into the category: weight training on the bike.
    You have to be careful that any training off the bike builds muscles in
    a way that simulates cycling activity, or aids cycling activity (e.g.,
    opposing muscle groups).  The wt-training advice in here seems sound
    in that respect.  "Strength-training via Cycling" at least means your
    muscles are doing bike-type things.
    
    A series of articles in Bicycling featuring noted coach (insert
    forgotten name here) says he won't let guys push big gears for a month
    or two in Dec./Jan.  He wants to build up capillaries.  The question
    this raises is, "Can you combine spinning and strength work (on/off the
    bike) during the same period without the effects' conflicting?"
    
    Of course, upper-body strength work (weights, etc.) wouldn't conflict
    with spinning, but how about leg-strength work?
    
    -john

    There's nothing wrong with pushing big gears off-season, if your
    fitness hasn't declined too much.
    
    The danger in pushing big gears off-season is the type of weather 
    you're apt to be doing it in, at least in New England.

    Yes wldwst is bay area but its still cold 37f @ 5am .
    boy @ 400+ miles a week you can push any gear you want at this time
    the real thing you just need is spin at your preffered gearing to 
    build up fast twitch muscles for an explosive sprint.
      The weights must be programed to first condition not build strenght
    at this time febuary to march is when more weights should be done for
    strenght. 
    PS. if I rode that much in a week my bottoms could bleed . or I will
    be dizzy all day . Good job john.
    
    Ed

    
    Thanks for the advice (and compliments!), Ed - I'll also work in
    the spinning to my routines, and for now will try to moderate
    the gears (to "condition" rather than "build" - to start off with).
    
    -john

      This note doesn't exactly fit here, but I thought people might
     be interested. I got it from the study I had done at Fitchburg
    State College as a part of some experimenting they're doing...
    
     The following represents what they are finding to be averages:
    
     VARIABLE                  JUNIORS          SENIORS          ME
    
     Age (yrs)                   15.3             39.5          39.3
    
     Height                      67.8             70.2          66.5
    
     Weight                      144              174           168
    
     %Fat                         9.3              15            14
                                                       (lower is better)
     Heart Rate Peak             191              180           188
                                                       (higher is better)
     Peak Power Watts            840              926           797
                                                       (higher is better)
     Mean Power                  644              771           654
                                                       (higher is better)
     Fatigue Index %              40               34            42
                                                       (lower is better)
     Peak Power Watts             12.8            11.7          10.32
                                                       (higher is better)
     Mean Power Watts              9.8             9.7           8.46
                                                       (higher is better)
     Force Output Newtons         392             607           655
                                                       (higher is better)
     Time Trial Perf.              31.2           31.6          29.05 (PB)
                                                       (lower is DEFINTELY
                                                              better)
    
     I have more information. This study was purposely taken off season and
    is meant to be a part of another study planned for early season,
    another for peak season and another for season end for comparitive
    analysis...
    
     The elite cyclist generally runs between 7% & 11% body fat (in
    season). I run between 11% & 12% in season.
    
     All rankings (mine) were considered favorable except I showed up
    weighing too much. Not really... My height skewed the results 
    because I'm well within the acceptable body fat % rating (under 20)
    
      Chip
     

    Chip, 
    
    It's really interesting that you came out behind the mean on all the
    laboratory power ratings, but well ahead on actual TT performance. What
    would you attribute that to?  Experience?  I'm not willing to believe
    that the Merlin has much impact in TT speed....

>     Peak Power Watts            840              926           797
>                                                       (higher is better)
>     Peak Power Watts             12.8            11.7          10.32
>                                                       (higher is better)
    
    Chip, I'm confused.....  The more so since my power rating (which was at
    max heart rate and max V02) was told to me as being 255 watts.
    
    Did you get a V02 max done ?

	Is it because everything is bigger and better in the US?        ;>)

	I'm confused as well.  If I calculate my power by finding the speed I
can maintain on a flat course (what's that?) ,and on a windless day (you must
be joking!), for about 100 km - with a bike+me weight of 90 kg, I get about
220 watts.  I am still not convinced that max power means anything in what is
essentially an endurance sport, but then what do I know - I just ride bikes for
fun.......

	BTW, I'd like to see some stats on DEC bikies on the lines of Chip's
print-out - I guess we could all fill in weight, height, resting pulse, blood
pressure etc...   If it's interesting, I'll draw up a form and collect the
results.

    
    RE: .-1  Yes, Robin, why don't you post the form if you care to.
    
    -john

     Re; The why's of being lower than the mean - you got me? I don't
         use the MERLIN for TT'g - I have a C DALE set-up for that...
    
         Part of the problem (I think) as to why I came in low was that
         I had been off the bike for a month and not really seriously
         riding in October. Simply put, my season was over at the end
         of Sept. and dogged it in OCT. - all but quit in Nov... This
         is generally my pattern (two months off Nov./Dec. and begin
         in Jan. again). BTW, part of my "off season" training is finding
         and stuffing as much unhealthy food as possible down my gullet.
    
    Re; What's a WATT?
    
         You're asking the wrong guy. I don't understand other than it's
         benchmark measurement against my age group. He loaded the data
         into some program and that's what spit out...
    
         Chip_who_hopes_to_be_above_the_national_average_someday 

    The standard power output numbers run something like this:

Person         Time maintained               Output (Watts)

average            8 hours			120
averate		   20 seconds			500
very strong	   8 hours			500
very strong	   20 seconds			900-1200

    It strikes  me  as quite likely that many or most memebers of this
    conference  can produce 200 Watts all day. Rod's 225 Watts strikes
    me  as  more likely to be the power he can maintain all day than a
    peak rating for someone who rides a lot.

    One horsepower is about 750 Watts.

--David