Conference noted::bicycle

    I'm also in the market for a new frame this year, but I'm looking for a
    top-quality touring beast that I can hang all sorts of stuff off of,
    tow a trailer with (only slightly kidding), and ride 16 hours straight
    without feeling like I've done 15 rounds with Lester No-Neck.
    
    I'm looking at the Cannondale that was listed a year ago in Bicycling
    magazine (don't have the issue in front of me, so I don't have the
    model), but if I can find a good frame I'd rather build up my own.
    (Does Cannondale sell just the frames? I've never asked....)
    
    Any experience in here with touring frames?
    
    	/Harry
    

    
    I would imagine that Cannondale sells frames by themselves, if you
    want.  To which Cannondale are you referring?  It would help if you
    could find the issue of Bicycling.  They make a kind of "grand touring"
    frame, the ST-1000, complete with matching fenders, cantilever brakes,
    etc.  This and other Cannondale touring models have been discussed in 
    this notes file - Mr. Perez has offered some good observations, for 
    example.  So you might do a DIR.
    
    Also, examine why you want to build up your own bike.  Of course it is
    a romantic idea that many of us have, including myself, but you may
    well end up paying more in the end, than for a pre-built one.  (So it
    probably should not be to save money, unless you have lots of spare
    bike parts lying around.)
    
    As to terms for buying a Cannondale by itself, either check by a dealer
    or write/phone Cannondale directly.  You'll have to go through a dealer
    anyway, since you are not a distributer or dealer yourself.
    
    -john
    
    RE: .0 - I guess not many in the audience have much experience with
    Basso and that tube-set.  If Matt Johnson is around, he may have some
    good opinions.  Anything (riding qualities, etc.) you're looking for
    in a frame?

    Check out colorado cyclist catalogs , they have a lot of beutifully
    colored Basso frames . I personally like the paramount OS for $900 
    It seems to me that no matter what frame you buy you must consider
    the company warranty and how they stand behind their products. The
    italian frames have poor chrome and paint they seem to peel off .
    
    As far as touring frames Holdsworth sells them but the best way is
    buy it complete ie. specialized sirrius 15 gears etc for $ 499. 
    also theres a new bridgestone hybird (xo) thats getting good reviews.
    good luck gents

    Tomassini is an Italian frame that *is* well-finished (or was three
    years ago, when I got mine).
    
    For a top-quality but not too expensive "local" frame, try
    Marinoni.  
    
    Paramount is definitely a good frame, and since price is holding
    fairly steady while everyone else goes up, it becomes more economical
    every year.
    
    Now that the imports have shot up in price, Serotta is very
    competitive, and his frames are as close to flawless as any you'll
    find.
    
    Then there are your smaller US builders, like Richard Sachs and
    Peter Mooney (to name two of the better ones in the New England
    area) -- particularly nice if you don't quite fit a "production"
    frame, because they custom build for you.
    
    One of the advantages of buying (North) American (includes Marinoni) is
    in the rare instance that your frame is defective, you'll get much
    quicker service.  Or if you crash, you can send your frame back to the 
    builder.
    
    Warrantees for imported frames depend partly on the builder and partly
    on the importer.  I had a Frejus with a downtube that dropped out of its 
    head lug in 1979 (fortunately I was going 10mph uphill!).  I did not 
    settle with the importer until 1984.  This is an extreme example, but 
    also a caveat.
    
    Now that European prices have gone up to the point where American
    (and Canadian) frames are competitive, I will probably stick to
    native-made.
    
    The lighter Cannondale gets, the more intriguing it becomes (to me at
    least), but I tend to be conservative when it comes to switching frame
    materials.  I finally did buy a beercan bike, though -- a Trek 8000
    ATB, and I've got no complaints, so I might become a little more
    liberal.  Anybody know if Cannondale builds a 2.8 with 126 instead of
    130mm spacing for the rear wheel?  One thing you *don't* want to do with 
    an aluminum frame is realign it, and I've got too many 7-spd wheels to
    make the jump to 8 quite yet.  Besides, if I wait a year or two,
    Shimano will make the 8 obsolete.
    
    Justin

     The answer to the original question is.... YES. C-Dale does sell
    frames. In fact, it was the first "serious" bike I built 3 years
    ago. I still have it, however I've turned it into a TT machine.
    
     Any authorized dealer can you get you one.
    
       Chip

    My husband owns a Basso, but it's not the ovalized tubing.  I don't
    remember what the frame is called.  He got it from Colorado Cyclist
    last fall, and built the bike over the holidays.

    If you want me to ask him, I can get more info from him.  The frame
    looked good except for one "blob" of paint on the chainstay.  It's
    metallic blue and pearl.  (Maybe this will indicate to someone what
    model it is.)

    He already had been riding a Cannondale for a couple of years, and got
    this Basso partly to get a "cushy" steel bike.  The theory was that it
    would be a lot less stiff than the Cannondale aluminum.  He's still	
    trying to get it adjusted, but his initial reaction is that it's
    HARSHER than the Cannondale.  The tubular tires he put on it may have
    something to do with that, but he's tried deflating them some and it
    hasn't made much difference.

    - Diane (who LOVES her "cushy" Bob Jackson frame)

    
    Diane, you would expect the steel frame to be "cushier" but
    there's lots of factors (kind of tubing, angles, etc.). I try
    to compare by riding on the same wheels if possible, as you
    implied.  Tubulars should give a cushier, not harsher, ride
    than clinchers, even when inflated quite a lot.  Strange...
    
    -john

    Ah, I remember now, it's a BASSO LOTO.  Thanks to Tom Deloriea's note
    1808.21, which mentioned the Loto.  It jogged my memory.

    Ray (my husband) built up his tubular rims on an 8-speed Campy hub.
    Consequently he can't switch his tubular tires over to the Cannondale
    to see how much difference is from the tires.

    As for the ovalized tube Basso, I think Colorado Cyclist only sells it
    in "Emergency Rescue Squad Orange" (a quote from a friend), which was
    just too much orange for Ray.

    - Diane

    re: .1,.2
    
    Well, I looked - the review was from Bicycling Magazine in August of
    90, not last year (time flies when you're having fun). The model was,
    in fact, the ST1000. I'm still drooling, but also suffering from a mild
    case of sticker shock.
    
    Does anyone have one of these lovely beasts? I've called the Cannondale
    number and asked them to send me a catalog, but even the latest bike
    review issue of Bicycling only showed two pure 'touring' bikes - the
    ST600 and ST1000 from C-dale. I'm hooked on mega-mile touring and am
    prepared to spend my hard-won tax refund on this steed, but I'd be
    interested in hearing of anyone's personal experiences with this model.
    
    Cheers,
    	/Harry

     Just understand, with C Dale you're getting the same frame on
    both models. The components drive the prices in their camp.
    
      Chip

    Yeah, but a couple of things tip the scale in favor of the 1000:
    
    The better front fork.
    
    The brake-hood shifters (love those).
    
    The Christmas-list of little 'extras' like the leather saddle,
    front and rear racks, and fenders.
    
    And as one of the replies here said, in the end it'll probably be
    cheaper and easier for me to buy the built-up rather than assemble my
    own.
    
    Decisions, decisions....
    
    	/Harry

    the reason why is 
     alluminum absorbs vibration cannondale made it way over sized for
    stiffnes. 
     steel transfer vibration but is more resilient and has a better ride
     actually sew ups ride better than clinchers and are smoother they
    are hard to repair though.
    regards
    Ed

	The January edition of "Le Cycle" has a test of 5 aluminium 
frames, namely the Vitus 992, 979, 787(Futural), Alan Titanal and Trek 1400.  
The overall conclusions were to place as follows:

1 Vitus 992, Alan Titanal and Trek 1400
	The Alan was said to be more lively on hills thanks to its geometry.
2 Vitus 979
	Less stiff but more comfortable than the first 3
3 Vitus 787
	Much less stiff but ideal for those wanting comfort as a priority

	As for prices, the Trek is certainly the best value, quoted at 6.800 
francs fully equipped with Shimano 105.
Alan Titanal	6.000 francs frame only
Vitus 992	4.900 francs frame only
Vitus 979	3.600 francs frame only
Trek 1400	6.800 francs complete, Shimano 105
Vitus 787	6.000 francs complete, tested as Decathlon Prestige (Sh 105)

	I think, like most things it comes down to personal preferences, 
proposed use and depth of pocket.  Personally I needed an up-to-date and
proven frame which would not rust for use in cyclo-sportif events, so I chose
the 979.  In addition I did not like the non-standard tubes of the Trek or the 
fact it was non-European.  
	Doubtless the 992 is a better frame but with a wife, house and two
cats to support, I found it impossible to justify the extra 1300 francs 
($250?).

	As an aside, the 787 is available frame only for 2.000-2.500 francs, 
and comes in "sportif", "touring" and "cyclo-cross".  I would strongly consider
one for touring, with its easy geometry and mudguard eyes as standard.

	Mail me if you want a copy of the article (fran�ais only I'm afraid).

    re: "and two cats to support"
    
    Make 'em work for a living!
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    
    Robin, did the article say anything about the Trek other than
    presumably that it was value-for-money?
    
    The reputation that Vitus has is that the frames flex too much 
    enough except for light cyclists.  Is this just some models and
    not others?  If they flex a lot, wouldn't that make them not so
    great in the mountains and/or with touring baggage?
    
    (I'm anticipating you'll say, No, since you've decided this is
    the right bike for you, and thus dispel at least my preconceived
    notions about Vitus.)
    
    -john
    
    PS: Your argument for buying-from-one's-own-continent would be
    another reason to by a Trek, if one were from North America, I guess.

They liked the Trek in general, saying it was very stiff and responsive, as all
the testers were European I think they had been primed to promote those models.
General opinion was that all the top 3 were almost indistinguishable in action
apart from the mountain geometry comments on the Alan.  The 979 has been around
for a long time with I believe over 100,000 examples made and is reliable and
maybe it is a bit staid nowadays, but they doubted whether the 992 would ever
reach those figures.

I have to say that I am not as light as I should be (77kg) - I suspect without
wishing to indicate that you are a load of fat slobs over there ;>), that 77kg
is "heavier" in Europe than in the US (or should I say "heavier than normal" -
difficult to get the point over without being really offensive).  I have 3
frames, a Columbus SL in 57cm, a 501 in 56 and now the 979 in 56 - I can't say
I really have problems with lack of response on any of them, however I don't
have the style that would show it up.  I don't use mighty gears and I don't
leap off up mountains in bursts of speed, I think the French term is that I
climb "en train", (or steady!).

If I was taller or heavier then the choice would have been more difficult - I
am 1,79 for 75/77 kg, - had I been say 1,87 and 90 kg........  Vitus recognise
this because they stop at 60cm (a bit over 23,6") even on the 992.  As I said,
my main problem is stopping the frames rusting through the sweat dropping on
them (and in case Rod W is reading) I will add that it also happened in the UK.
You cannot always guarantee to wash the bike down after every ride and sooner or
later I find rust has taken hold.

As for "home country production", of course you are right, I try to buy European
where I can - unfortunately Japan still make the better VALUE mechs and brakes,
but I would not see any reason for buying say Japanese saddles, rims, bars,
stems, frames even.....

Robin

    Well, I did it, folks! I picked up my Cannondale ST1000 last Friday -
    and it hasn't stopped snowing here since!!!!
    
    I found a new model-year 91 for several hundred bucks less than this
    year's pricey ($1495 list) version, and it came with all the fancy
    extras (front and rear racks, fenders, Brooks saddle, etc). The only
    change I made from stock was to replace the GripShifters with SunTour
    Command shifters (the wing-nut-like things that sit inboard of the
    brake hoods).
    
    I did thirty or so over the weekend on the Kreitlers, and it feels
    really nice (although that 'pre-softened' saddle is going to take some
    breaking in!); now let's have some decent riding weather around here!
    
    	/Harry