Conference noted::bicycle

    
    
    Sounds like you need a Cyclecross bike. They may be hard to find, I 
    think Offroad makes one. The  bars are drop style but flaired so its
    not as radical as drop bars. You get 21 speeds, your choice of tires
    depending on how knoby or smooth you want. I own a Mt. bike and road
    and there is a MAJOR difference. You can forget about having an 
    enjoyable 50 mile ride with your boyfriend if your riding different
    style bikes. Find a good bike shop like Wheelworks in Belmont they can
    help you out.
    
    
    
    Joe

    One way to solve the problem is to buy a tandem.  Both he and you
    get the exercise you need.  It will either strengthen or distroy your
    relationship.
    
    seriously
    There is no easy solution to your problem.  Right now you feel 
    more comfortable on the upright bars of a hybrid/mountain bike.  THis
    is why the industry has done well in the past few years.  Now as people
    are seeing that this geometry is optimal for off road but not on road,
    more "racing" bikes are selling again.  You need to decide how
    serious you intend on getting.  There are some VERY high quality
    hybrids that will solve your problem, but they run about $1,300
    (Bruce Gordon Rock and Road).
    
    steve
    

    
    Lori,
    
    That's a dilemma indeed.  If you say your number one priority is being
    able to ride with your boyfriend, then I guess you've said it all: get
    reasonably compatible bikes.
    
    But I wouldn't turn my back on trail-riding.  If you think you'd like that,
    you'd be disappointed to deprive yourself.  It's a lot of fun.  
    
    Still, maybe there's a way out.
    
    I know several people who can keep up fine on the road on a mountain
    bike (one is a guy who enjoys passing road bikers on his way to work
    on his MTB; another is a woman who can ride a darned good pace with
    a full-fledged MTB *with knobbies* for a metric century or more, and
    another is a racer who keeps up on his knobby-tired mountain bike on
    the Tues./Thur. tri-athlete training rides, which are pretty fast!).
    
    Some compromises are in order to make this work with an MTB:
    
      1. You may have to put out more effort (with the result that you'll
         be in better shape!) than your boyfriend on the road to keep up.
         How muscular are you?  Are you in good shape now?
    
      2. Your boyfriend *may* need to tone back a little on his speed
         or slow down on climbs (because that's where an MTB's weight
         hits you hardest) -- if he isn't willing to do that, well then...
    	 after all, you two aren't going out to do sprints, are you?
    
      3. You can get some smooth, narrower tires for road use, maybe even
         an extra set of wheels if you get serious about off-road.
    
    As to hybrids, yes go ahead and look into them.  I personally would
    rather have a neat high-performance MTB (on the light end) that I could
    put smooth tires on for road use, than an in-between bike.  For one
    thing, it's classier.  :-)  But you be the judge.  A lot of the advice
    above holds for getting a hybrid, too.
    
    Go and take an MTB (with tires pumped up :-)) around the block, and
    see how fast you go when you push it.  It may not be as slow as you'd
    think.  And, hey, your boyfriend may eventually ask to "borrow" your
    MTB if you get one, just to see what it's like.  :-)
    
    Good luck!
    
    -john

Thanks for the replies so far - they've definately given me some things to
think about.  (I got a good chuckle out of the tandem/hacksaw comment :-) ).

John, to respond to some of your comments directly:    
     
     >1. You may have to put out more effort (with the result that you'll
     >   be in better shape!) than your boyfriend on the road to keep up.
     >   How muscular are you?  Are you in good shape now?
    
I am in fairly good shape.  I do aerobics (step/high impact) 3 to 5 times a
week.  Steve at Goodales told me I'd definately get a good workout on a MTB
and I'm not opposed to that at all !  My concern, though, is that I'd never
be able to "relax" out on a long ride.  Steve said that MTBs are not coasting
bikes - i.e. i'd be peddling the whole time.  Is this really true?

     >2. Your boyfriend *may* need to tone back a little on his speed
     >   or slow down on climbs (because that's where an MTB's weight
     >   hits you hardest) -- if he isn't willing to do that, well then...
     >	 after all, you two aren't going out to do sprints, are you?

No we're not out to set any speed records by any means!  but some of the nice
selling points on the road bikes we looked at were their pick-up speed, braking,
etc.  i wouldn't want to feel like I'm holding him back because I can't keep up.
    
     >3. You can get some smooth, narrower tires for road use, maybe even
     >   an extra set of wheels if you get serious about off-road.

Steve told me about a tire which I think he called "slicks".  They had no
knobs on them at all.  In fact the tread was indented into the tire.  He said
they could be used for road riding on a MTB but regardless I'm going to still 
have problems with the smaller tires and heavier frame.
    
Has anyone ridden Hybrids on well-groomed trails ?  how did they do ?

RE: .1  Joe - I don't remember seeing a Cyclecross at Goodales.  In categories 
of bikes, is it one level below a recreational road bike and one level above a
hybrid ?

Thanks,

Lori

    Hi Lori ...
    
    I think you should look at a few hybrids.  I own one and ride it on the
    street all the time ... sometimes with folks who own street bikes ...
    and never experience any problems keeping up with them.  Hybrids come
    with larger diameter tires than MTB's (27" rather than 26" in my case),
    they're narrower (1.75" rather than 2.25"), and they're good both on the
    street and for light-duty off-street stuff.  I like riding my bike on the
    dirt trails like you typically find in a state park.
    
    My bike has 18 speeds ... many come with 21 speeds.  While the high
    gear is not as high as you'd find on a street bike it isn't really that
    much of a difference.  My hybrid coasts just fine ... I think the tires
    you choose have a lot to do with that as well as the bike type.  I have
    semi-knobbies ... they're knobby on the sides with a solid stripe down
    the middle.
    
    There are a few notes in here on hybrids ... perhaps you should do a
    DIR/TITLE=HYBRID and go read up on what I and others have said about
    the hybrids before deciding.
    
    Oh, and you don't have to mortgage your first-born to afford one
    either.  My bike cost less than $300 ... although if I had it to do
    over again I might opt to spend another $100 or so and get better
    components.  Of course, you can spend a lot more and get a much lighter
    bike ... depends on how important that is to you.
    
    ... Bob
    

    Lori,
    
    Yes, my impression is that MTB's are not "coasting bikes" -- certainly
    not with knobbies, not entirely with slicks.  I understand you'd
    not like to be at anaerobic threshold your whole ride, and a good
    road bike can give some easy coasting even at 20+ mph.
    
    Go try an MTB and, as .-1 suggested, a hybrid. You sound like you have
    a great attitude, by the way.
    
    cheers,
    -john

    Lori,
    
    I can relate to your situation.  My boyfriend and I have been riding
    together for about a year.  When we first started, I had a good hybrid
    bike, and my boyfriend has a touring bike.  I found that I had to work
    much harder to keep up a good pace than he did.  I also found that I 
    had a much more difficult time getting up hills, even with the granny
    wheel, and didn't pick up as much speed coasting down hills.  The
    result was that my boyfriend had to really make an effort to keep down
    to my pace, and I never had an easy coast downhill to rest.  One thing
    that did make it somewhat easier to keep a decent pace was that I
    always got to draft :^)
    
    I just recently bought a Cannondale touring bike, because I got so 
    frustrated with the performance of the hybrid on the road relative
    to road bikes.  I've picked up about two miles per hour on average
    speed with the touring bike without any real change in how I ride.  
    I'm not all that concerned with speed; this just demonstrates to me 
    the performance difference.  And it's not due to the quality of 
    the hybrid...it was a good bike; just not great for doing longer rides
    or keeping pace with road bikes.
    
    As far as off-road is concerned, it's my opinion that there's not much
    you can do with a hybrid.  I bent the rims on my hybrid on terrain that
    was not too rough.  I don't believe you can really have a bike that
    does both.  To me, hybrids are good for light recreational riding, city
    riding, and such.  If you're going to spend most of your time on the
    road, get a road bike.  I've had no problem getting used to the lower
    handlebars, and I get such a rush out of being able to really crank it
    out when I want to!
    
    When I pay off the debt from this bike, I'll buy a *real* mountain 
    bike for the off-road stuff!
    
    Cheryl

One reason that woman like mountain bikes is because they are more comfortable.
Most bikes are designed for men, with their longer torso and arms.  This makes
the top tube of the road bikes too long and very uncomfortable.  

It is possible to find road bikes that will fit.  My wife has been test riding
bikes and even at 5'9" the mens bikes don't fit her at all.  Terry bikes are 
made for women and fit her very well.

I guess that I would suggest finding a good shop and having them do "Fit Kit" on
you (and your boyfriend).  And buy a bike that fits you.

It is easy to make a mountain bike faster, tires and aero bars will make it fly.
But the fit of the bike to you, is everything.

Good luck - Peter

Lori,

As much as Mr Fuller (earlier reply) was kidding, buying a tandem was my first
thought and the more I think about it, the more it make sense.  Hybrid tandems
are available.  Belmont Wheelworks has a good selection of them.

Pros:  

o Both can get a good exercise.  Your boyfriend may put more than 50% of
the total effort if he is stronger but the bike will be going so fast that he
will not get frustrated with the lack of speed.

o It is a good way of staying together (at least while you ride) and having an
enjoyable time while still getting a good work out.

Cons:

o It's tough to ride when one person is missing...

o If both of you are strong riders, components on a tandem gets abused much 
quicker.

o If your relationship ends, the tandem becomes a problem (we would know when
you place a "For Sale" add in this conference ;-).  If your relationship is 
strong, you will get many years of enjoyment.


Now if you don't want to go the tandem route and you say that 90% of your riding
will be on the road then you should get a road bike.  Sure, it's nice to have
Rapid-fire shifting, etc but it is very frustrating to ride an ATB on the road.
I suggest that you try out a few road bikes and you will soon find out that 
the ride will more than compensate for the extra conveniences of an ATB.

Eric

    I noticed yesterday that the October issue of Consumer Reports has an
    article on MTB's and hybrids.  Might be worth reading before you
    consider your purchase.
    
    ... Bob
    

Thanks Bob - I've already read the article on MTB's in the Consumer Reports
magazine.  What was very interesting was the comment in that article that
as many as 90% of America's mountain bikes never leave the pavement! I
guess the majority of those MTB owners are out riding with other MTB owners
though...

Thanks for all the good advice.  I'll have to do some thinking but I am
leaning towards getting a good quality road bike.  I'm starting to realize 
that if I'm going to spend most of my time riding on the road, I should get 
a bike that is best equipped to allow me to enjoy those rides.  Then if or 
when I decide I'd like to try mountain biking, I'll get a MTB to be used 
solely for that purpose.

Lori
    

Re .11: Yes, buying two bikes is definitely a good solution, and one that
many contributors to this conference have come to. Or three. Or ten, for that
matter, naming no names...


Rod

    
    Lori, after reading the replies, I'd have to agree, and have fun with
    your road bike!
    
    -john

    
    I bought a Mt bike to ride on the road.  Here in NH often times even
    though you would like to stay on the road there are many times when
    there is no room left while two trucks are dueling it out and the only
    place to go is down the bank at 30mph.  Saved me more than once.  And
    now I ride off-road too, when it's too cold for mosquitoes.

    
    I vote for the tandem too, but its a big plunge.  My (then girlfriend)
    wife and I spent a lot more time agonizing about buying the tandem than
    we did over getting married.  But it solved all the problems that have
    been discussed around actually riding close enough to carry on a
    conversation.
    
    Failing that, the road bike will work best, I think.  One bike just
    can't do the job (thank goodness - coming up with another excuse might
    be tough).
    
    Will Monin
    Seattle

    Hi Lori,
                                               
    My wife and I just went through the exact same thing!
                  
    We realized that whether or not she got the hybrid bike, her
    pace on the bike would be slower than mine. So, we decided up front
    that when we ride together it's for fun, speed is not an issue,
    and we're out to enjoy a morning or afternoon. We bought her
    the hybrid because she was more comfortable with that. When we ride
    together, we average 10 mph, and I never shift out of the easy gear.
    
    I love to ride somewhat more aggressively than that, so I just do
    that after our ride, or with other friends. I have a Serotta, and 
    they're not meant to be ridden at a hybrid's pace! 
    
    Regards,
     -Rich         
          

    
    
    	If a hybrid is 2 mph slower than a road bike (on average for
    	the bike Cheryl described...)
    
    	then how much slower would a mountain bike with slicks be 
    	compared to a road bike?  (as many things being equal as possible)
    	(I know, there's not enough info to give a precise answer; 
    	educated guesses will do ! ;-)
    
    					nancy b.
    

I've got a set of slicks for my mountain bike.  I put them on from time to
time when I want to ride on the road.  I've ridden with the road bikers
here on one or two occasions, and found that I was averaging about 17 MPH
over a distance of about 12 - 15 miles.  I was able to average just a shade
over 20 MPH in a 30 mile race once, but I was dead tired afterwards.

Its tough,  but  a  good workout pushing the extra weight of the mountain bike
while  riding  on the road.  I found that my biggest disadvantage was the wind
hitting me in the chest due to the upright riding position on the mountainbike
versus the road bikes.

So exactly how much slower is the mountain bike with slicks versus the road 
bike?  It depends on who you're riding with, I guess!

Later,

Andy

    I once went out with a Arizonan who reckoned he was faster descending
    on tight, well tarmacced roads on a slick-equipped MTB than a road
    bike....
    
    /r

I find it interesting that this discussion about the speed differences between
road bikes and mountain bikes keeps coming up. I personally don't think there's
much of an issue. Most of the time, the limit to your speed is not the bike but
the traffic situation you're in or the amount of effort (read pain) you're
willing to put up with.

Why do I say that? I spent 18 months commuting 28 km each way to work. At
first, I rode my racing bike, with a rack and pannier. On average, it took
about 62 minutes. After several months of this, I decided to buy a meduium
quality mountain bike. This was definitely heavier than the road bike, with
knobbiess. My commute time moved to 65 minutes. Longer yes, but not really
significantly. Then, I did a few changes like more road-based tires and found
there was a difference of about 1 minute in the hour.

Now, I have Cannondale ATB with Avocet Cross 1.5" tires. Also, I have added
Onza bar-ends, which I have set up so I can use them like tri-bars. With this
combination, I suspect that I can be as quick on the road on my ATB as my road
bike. It's also about as light, if not lighter, than the road bike.

So why do I run a mountain bike? Several reasons. Part of my commute to work is
across gravel and unmade roads. It's nice to not have to worry about the road
surface when there are a lot of cars whizzing past. The extra robustness of the
bike is a great benefit when potholes appear out of nowhere, especially in the
dark. When I go out for a ride, it's is fun to be able to investigate any path,
track or bridleway which grabs my fancy. All in all, it is more FUN!

I hope this helps,
Tim

     Commuting efforts are much different than training and "going for
    time" efforts. Three minutes is at least a mile for most folks, and
    more for some.
    
     There is no way I (personally) could average 22mph on my ATB for 20 
    miles (this is a hard training/time effort on a course where I live).
     
     I can absolutely tell you that I could not average 25+ mph on my ATB
    doing my weekly TT course (12 miles). Davis Phinney or Greg LeMond
    would blow my doors in if I were on my TT bike and they were using
    my ATB.
    
     They are very different bicycles meant for different riding. And, of
    course, the BIG variable is definitely the engine. 
    
     I just don't agree with the statement that ATB's and road bikes don't
    have a significant impact on averages and time. All things being equal,
    they are very different.
    
      Chip

    Hey, I never said I couldn't achieve and maintain high speeds with my 
    hybrid.  I just said with the same effort, I could get about 2mph
    faster.  Also, about using slicks...I thought about that, but then, 
    being a basically lazy person about off the bike stuff, like changing
    tires, I thought it would be a royal pain to switch back and forth.
    
    Also, much as I hate to admit it, men are, in general, stronger than
    women, and my 6'3" boyfriend is significantly stronger than 5'4" me.
    Since we're both at about the same level of fitness, it only stands
    to reason that I'm going to wear out alot faster on my hybrid than
    he is on the road bike.  But with my new Cannondale, I *dust* him on
    the hills!
    
    Cheryl

RE:  last

I too have similar height/strength differences between my boyfriend and
myself and feel I need whatever help I can get to keep up and make it
an enjoyable ride for both of us without my exerting alot of extra energy.
Hence my decision to go with a road bike.

I did a dir/title=cannondale and read those notes.  From the looks of it,
it seems the Cannondales are a litte out of our price range (well, maybe
a lot !).  We'd like to spend under $400 for each bike.  The bikes we
looked at at Goodales were mostly Giant and Fuji.  How do these two compare ?
Any other brands for beginner bikers in this price range you can suggest ?
(or maybe some pointers to other notes ?)

Thanks alot,

Lori

    High Lori, 
    Try a cyclocross?
    

    
    I've been out for three weeks, but if I could add my $0.02....
    
    Road bikes in general will be faster on the road than mountain bikes. 
    If you really don't plan to EVER ride single track in dirt, or jump
    sidewalks, stairways, or curbs, then you you really should get a road
    bike. 
    
    Having a little experience with this question, though, my advice for
    setting up a mountain bike for road riding would be:
    
    1) get the narrowest 26" clinchers and put on the narrowest slick (or
    semi-slick) tire that you can find. There ARE 1" and 1.25" tires
    available for 26" wheels. You MUST have a rim that is narrow enough to 
    hold them. Going from dirt-to-road-to-dirt would be as easy as changing
    wheelsets. 
    
    2) Most mountain bikes come with a 28-38-48 triple. Swap the 48 for a 
    52 or 54. You'll have more "top-end" for those flats and downhills. 
    
    3) Consider putting on a drop (road) bar. You could still mount the
    mountain bike components on the flat of the bar, but it would give
    you a flatter riding position when on the road. 
    
    I have not tried the above things.... but I did ride my mt. bike on the 
    road for a while before getting a road bike. After riding on the road
    bike for a while and considering the problem "in retrospect", I believe
    that the above three modifications will help you squeeze the most out
    of a mountain bike on the road. If an extra wheelset seems to
    expensive, then you might consider getting the 1.25" or 1.5" Avocet
    Cross tires. Price would run something like:  2 tires ($40) + drop bar
    ($20) + 52 chainring ($20) = $80. Advantages would include: MUCH lower
    rolling resistence, higher top end and more aerodynamic position. 
    
    doug
    

    I'd opt for a set of wheels over a set of tires. Swapping tires each
    time you decide to ride on different terrain would be cumbersome.
    Use a smaller freewheel on your road wheels and you can keep the
    rings as they are. Bar extensions, or a multi-position bar should
    eliminate the need to swap bars as well.
    It might be more expensive, but the transition from ATB to road should
    be very quick.
    
    John

    
    re: -1, I wasn't suggesting swapping tires for each ride. I was
    suggesting that (if you MUST use a set of wheels both on/off road 
    riding) the Avocet Cross tires might be the best compromise.
    A 13-32 really is a necessity (for me) for true dirt riding, so
    swapping freewheel for a smaller one is not an option. Since the 48
    is easily upgraded to a 52 (or 54/56), its the obvious choice. 
    Lastly, I was suggesting that the drop bar be put on PERMANENTLY. 
    Even some pros do a bit of dirt riding with a drop bar, and it is 
    preferable to bar ends or a multiposition bar for road riding.
    
    doug
     

Re: .-1

With regard to swapping the 48 tooth chain ring for a 52 or 54/56, there 
is one thing to consider.  With the larger chain ring, there is slightly 
less ground clearance, which could make hopping those logs and rocks that
much more difficult.  Also, I have yet to see a rock ring that can protect
anything larger than a 50 tooth circular chain ring.

Later,

Andy

     I would really have to see an individual ride a GOOD out of the shop 
    mountain bike within 2 or 3 minutes time of a GOOD out of the shop
    racing bike.  What I mean by out of the shop is no improvements made
    for performance.  Tim what kind of racing and mountain bikes do you
    own.  I am not trying to be a smart as*, I know that I myself cannot
    even come close to my road bike time on my mountain bike with the same
    effort excertad(sp) on the road.  They are both out of the shop bikes
    except the mtb has rock shox.
    Bob

Hi Bob,

I agree with you that a good bicyclist, riding a good quality road bike against
a good quality mountain bike, out of the box, would probably (in fact, almost
definitely) do better on the road bike.

In my case, I have a steel frame road bike equipped with Shimano 600
components. It is about 7 years old, in good shape, well kept up, using Avocet
25mm slicks, etc. My mountain bike is (was, presently, but that's another
story) a Cannondale SM-700, which has been slightly modified with Avocet 1.5"
Cross tires, Onza bar ends.

The weight of the two bikes is just about equal. On either bike, I average just
about the same speed, on commuting trips around town and through light traffic.
As soon as the traffic increases, the Cannondale is faster as I feel more
confident in moving over kerbs and sewer drains on it.

The feel of the two bikes is completely different. I must admit that for longer
rides on lightly travelled roads, I much prefer the road bike. There are more
hand positions, the maneuverability is better, the acceleration is slightly
improved. Overall, it feels more responsive.

However, for the sort of riding I find myself doing nearly all the time, which
is:
	1. commuting (100 km per week)
	2. hauling two kids in a trailer (15 km per week?)
	3. fun ridiing off road (15 km per week)
	4. fun riding on road (? per week)
the Cannondale comes out on top for all except the last. In the present
circumstances, I almost never get to indulge in #4 anymore, sadly.

Any comments?

Cheers,
Tim

    Yes, is the trailer hauling done on or off road? :-)

    Hi,
    
    I just wanted to update you all on the "dilemma" I presented in the
    base note !  In the past few months, my boyfriend and I have spent 
    a lot of time visiting bike shops and talking to other road and 
    mountain bike owners and I finally convinced him that the Mountain
    Bikes were the way to go !   He decided that he wouldn't be so opposed
    to some off-road riding and realized that we might even have some fun
    doing it !!!  :-)
    
    So, we just put a deposit on two 1992 Trek 830 Mountain bikes.  We got
    a pretty good deal on the price of the bikes and got a helmet and water
    bottles/cages thrown in for free.   My boyfriend is very tall so he 
    needed the 24" frame which alot of MTB companies don't make.  
    
    Now, I do have a question about the "fit kit".  I remember reading
    about it in here somewhere (but can't find the notes) and I want to
    make sure that we are properly fitted to the bikes.  We've ridden them
    twice and feel comfortable on them, but what are the specifics of the
    Fit Kit ??  What should I keep in mind when we are being fitted ?
    
    Thanks for all your help !
    
    Lori

    
    Well that's good news, Lori.  As to the Fit Kit, it's best done
    before you buy the bike, to determine not only the proper frame
    size, but also stem extension and other things that might imply
    switching out parts.  But after the sale is also good, assuming
    they put you on the right frame.  Bike adjustment would then
    include stem height, saddle height, saddle fore-and-aft position.
    To some extent, a bike shop should be able to do this pretty closely
    with a few simple anatomical measurements and a tape measure and
    plumb line.�
    
    Frankly, I don't know what saddle height signifies for a mountain bike.
    After all, you off-road guys are quick-releasing the saddle up and 
    down at the slightest provocation, and otherwise suspending you all's
    derri�re over the rear knobby.  I just don't know... :-)
    
    -john
    
    �This is to assess the "Lean Angle," which is the extent to which
     the cyclist leans to one side or another.

Isn't "lean angle" the angle you have to lean back at to compensate
for the weight gradually accumulating in the paunch area? (John, this
doesn't apply to you.)


Rod