Conference noted::bicycle

	You've hit a touchy point with me. So, here's my tuppenceworth:-

>> 2. STI is racers-only, since the largest cog you can use is a 23.

	I would have to say that the benefits gained by the system were
  primarily designed for a competitive nature, where a quick change was
  required. Although it could be used for touring/commuting, I think for the
  little convenience gained, it is way, way too expensive at the price of
  what some would buy their entire bike at.

>> 4. STI is crash-vulnerable.
>> Yes, but not fragile.  The lever housing is made of steel, not aluminum.

	I think the main point that the article was trying to put over wasn't
  that the equipment isn't strong enough, but that there are 3 main parts of a 
  bike that are 'crash-vulnerable'. These are your wheels, your rear derailleur
  and your handlebars/brake levers. The rest of the bike is generally protected
  by you. You will hit the ground before it does, thus softening it's blow. A
  common symptom is that one side of your handlebars gets bent in and knocks
  your brake lever out of position. Normally you could continue racing normally
  with this, but if that brake lever also serves as your gear lever, although
  you could still change gear, because of the awkwardness of it's positioning,
  you wouldn't be so efficient changing. This would put you at a big
  disadvantage.

>> Also, I think the fact that you can shift with your hands on the brakes
>> makes a crash a little less likely to happen.

	The safety benefit is insignificant. Unless you are a particularly
  poor cyclist, most crashes will be caused by someone else that you get
  involved in. Only having one hand on the bars won't be that great a loss. If
  you're going to crash, then you're going to crash.


>> You may be seeing "levers only" on the market soon, for under $400.
>> 7. STI is too expen$ive.
>> Depends on your priorities. 

	Doing a straight dollar to pound currency conversion, I make that still
  over twice the price for brake and gear levers. I think one of the problems
  is that these look so different that they are instantly recognisable. As a
  result they come top of the list for poseurs. Please don't take that as a
  personal condemnation. It's merely an observation of the riders I've seen
  with STI over here. They ride around on a cheap frame and heavy wheels, with
  STI, Oakley Blades sunglasses and all the rest of it, but never race because
  they know that they'll take a pounding. They talk a good race though: "If I
  had ridden today I think I would've gone below the hour." But you've got a
  PB 10 minutes slower than that!!! Sorry, I digress, but that is my main fear
  over the equipment. It'll be bought for all the wrong reasons and by the all
  the wrong people. If you've got a good quality bike already and honestly
  believe that the equipment will give you some sort of benefit, then by all
  means, go ahead. But the posers will still annoy me. I know they shouldn't,
  and that I should ignore them, but I hate people boasting about their bike.
  People telling me about their performances impress me, after all that's what
  we're in this game for.

     I read the article and think what they were refering to on the
    cog capacity was for the 8spd casette. I don't know enough about
    the difference in specs on their f/w's versus casettes, but maybe
    there is a difference.
    
     It's great that there's alternatives instead of having to be fixed
    to specific compenetry. Shimano (et al) feela need to lie about this
    constantly to make a few extra bucks (I guess).
    
     Crash vulnerability doesn't seem to be an issue in real life. Davis
    Phinney (personally) told us that he's crashed with these (a lot)
    and has never had a breakdown. He said he just picks himself up
    off the road, bangs the break levers back in place, and charges
    back. The things never get out of adjustment from a crash.
    
     Chip 

    I hope that 10000 poseurs buy the stuff.  then the price will come
    down.  We'll also start seeing it in the yardsales and department
    stores.  :-)
    
    ed

    Ed, have you *ever* seen Shimano drop their prices the following
    season?
    
    BTW .1, if you don't want to buy 'em, don't ever try 'em ;-}
    
    Justin

    >>have you *ever* seen Shimano drop their prices the following
    season?
    
    Now that you mention it, ... No, that was only Nashbar as an item was
    being prematurely obsolesced.  :-)
    
    ed

    If you have any connections through a bike shop, you may want to check
    the current dealer prices.  A guy on our team just purchased the set
    for $350 about two weeks ago.

    I'm sure y'all are way ahead of me, but I just got my Bike Nashbar
    catalog and noticed that they show the Dura-Ace dual control brakeset
    on sale for $109.95.  
    
    This SEEMS too good to be true - as in they don't really have 'em, or
    they only come in screaming iridescent yellow, or something...  but if
    they're for real...
    
    Now my question...  assuming they really DO have these formerly $500+
    sets at such a cheap price - are they compatible with my 7-speed Deore
    XT derailleur and freewheel?  I don't care about the 8th gear, just
    whether or not the spacing is the same so it'll shift gears properly...
     
    Is the front shift also indexed with the Dura-Ace setup?  If so, is it
    compatible with my front triple Deore XT chainring and Deore DX
    derailleur?  I'd love to get a set of these shifters but don't want to
    replace every piece of hardware on the bike!

     I wouldn't get too excited... I don't have mine yet, but I'm sure
    it's a mistake. Steals & Deals always says "If it sounds too good
    to be true, it probably is". 
    
     Chip

    Yeah, but will it work?  If the setup is compatible I'll go for it!  I
    figure Nashbar has a limited number of these so I"d like to know if
    it'll work properly - SO I CAN TRY TO ORDER ONE BEFORE YOU
    GEAR-HEADS GET 'EM ALL! :^)

If you'll look at page 33 in the catalog you'll find 
a quote that ends with the following,"BIKE NASHBAR is 
not responsible for any unintentional errors", in 
regards to the catalog.

I called them, it is a miss-print. They are $536.76


Gee, maybe you can call Performance and see if they'll
honor their "Performance Price Protection Plan". I 
doubt it.

Tom

    Yup, after three days of trying, I finally also got a human on the
    phone...  one that was VERY tired of explaining that it was a typo,
    they were indeed $500+, and OUT OF STOCK!
    
    So much for a bargain...

Has anyone bought a set of STI levers and installed them yourself?

I have a set on back order and was wondering a few things about the levers.

o - Are the shifter cables and brake cable the same diameter? 
    Can after market brake cable housing be used on the shifters?

I'm wondering about replacing the gray cable that comes with the levers with
something a bit more colorful.

o - What type of handle bar are you using? Cinelli or Modolo bend?
    Do you see a problem using either?


o - Did you find any problems installing the levers?
    Adjustments or quirks?


Tom

    Hi Tom,
    
> Has anyone bought a set of STI levers and installed them yourself?
    
    Yes, I've done it twice.
    
> - Are the shifter cables and brake cable the same diameter? 
>   Can after market brake cable housing be used on the shifters?
    
    The shifter and brake cable are not the same diameter.
    No, after market brake cable can not be used for the shifters. I've
    tried it and it doesn't work. You might get it to work for a while but
    brake cable housing is too flexible for use with STI, even the stranded
    variety.
    
> -What type of handle bar are you using? Cinelli or Modolo bend?
    
    I've done it both times with Cinelli bars and stems. NOooo Problem.

> - Did you find any problems installing the levers?
>   Adjustments or quirks?
    
    I suggest you run the brake cable thru the shifter BEFORE you put it on
    the bike. Then install the shifter and run the cable housing onto the
    cable. Adjustments were almost too easy. I was amazed at how simple it
    was. After about 500 miles, give the barrel adjuster on the derailleur
    a quarter turn to tighten it up.
    
    I know, the silver cables housings are not exactly the greatest in
    looks, but all I have been able to work instead are the tri-bar cables
    from Branford Bike. They come in black. I know it's not great, but it's
    better than silver.
    
    Down hills and tailwinds,
    
    Gary

I was quite unhappy with the weight of my complete bike. The STI levers add
a lot of weight to the front of the bike. The 600 Ultegra/STI equipped
Basso Loto weighed in at an even 23 pounds. Thats a pound heavier than my 
SL Basso with non STI 600 Ultegra.

The pound is found right in the brake levers. This places the extra weight 
over the front wheel. When you pick the bike up, the weight in the front 
makes it feel more like it's 5 pounds heavier. A normal front end of a bike 
seems to weigh nothing compared to this STI iron sled.

Thoughts of selling the STI levers and going back to normal brake/shifter 
levers flooded my mind. No, I can't do that I thought. It's only a pound 
heavier than I hoped it would be. I really should take the weight off me not
the bike. Look at all the pro's. They have STI levers and they're loving 'em.

Loosing weight on the bike is easier than taking it off me so thoughts of 
trimming the fat off the bike came back. HMmm, how about those trick quick
release skewers. Those old LOOK pedals must weigh a lot, Sampson Stratics
weigh half of what my LOOK's weigh....

Oh S#$% maybe I should have saved more pennys and not heated the house this 
year and bought a Merlin.... Ya thats it I'd have a light bike with STI. The
best of both worlds.

REALITY:

	It's only a pound. I am more than a pound over weight. The weight
	will come off me first. I'm not big into racing, why now do I think
	I need to have the "best" bike? I should thank God I got what I got.
	

I really need to stop reading those `Ti' notes in this conference. All this 
talk about lightness of bike. We've all heard about those riders that beat
everyone in the hill climb on a bike that has pack-racks on it, or the
rider that sets a TT record on a piece of junk.

Yes, it is the engine not the bike. I'll be focusing on me rather than the 
bike. This way, I'm sure to get better results. 
(and also heat the house;-)

Tom

    
    Well, but it's *where* the weight is that counts.  As you said,
    this is up out in front - it even has "moments of inertia" or
    whatever, because it's at the end of a lever.
    
    People razzed me for years for my handlebar pack for that reason.
    
    -john

     Tom, just a lesson shared... NEVER, NEVER, EVER be thankful for
    what you have... Go for it all!!!!!
    
      :-)  Chip  :-)

I just can't believe that a few pounds here or there makes a blind bit of
difference other than in the rider's mentality. If weight slowed you down
so much, how would a team leader be able to send a domestique back to the
team car to collect water? There, he might end up carrying 6 or 8 bottles
back up the pack, and what would that weigh? 5 kilos?

As for hill-climbing, once the gradient is more than a few percent the speed
of your climb is directly related to your power output. If you consider a 
bike plus rider combination of 100kg (on the heavy side), then varying his
load by 1 kg (2.2 pounds) would cause a variation in speed of 1%, or precisely
36 seconds in the course of a climb lasting 1 hour.


Rod

    Well said Rod !
    
    but.....
    
    It is of course completely in the mind but that _really_ matters.  
    
    When I first went cyclo-touring I was fanatical about weight and did pretty
    much everything save drill my toothbrush out for extra lightness
    (People who have read `cycle-ride to the centre of the earth' will
    recognise the symtpoms�).  I am now much more of a sybarite (sp?) and so I
    each year I take a bit more.  
    
    Last year I calculated that If I took an extra bidon of water (weighing
    about a pound) with me on the toughest day's climbing I did -5000m or
    about 16,000 feet I would use about 6 extra kilocalories which are
    called calories in dietry texts.  This is considerably less than a lump
    of sugar provides !.
    
    r
    
    � If you ever want to read about weight saving gone made read this
    book.  Tricks included no front changer `kick down and use a finger to
    change up'.  Single pot contact-lense cases and combining all their drugs 
    into one bag.  But they did cycle a long way into China of what we'd
    count as MTB terrain on racing bikes (in SLX)

    
    
    	Sadly it is true that you get a psychological benefit from having
    all the latest gear. But if you know that it's just pyschological, it
    can go in your favour too. I remember a few years ago (about '86),
    Greg Lemond had just made Oakleys THE fashion statement in cycling. A
    new guy turned up to our club full of confidence that he was going to
    humiliate all us 'old-timers' because he had these Oakleys. After 3
    miles when he still couldn't shake us off his wheel, he went home
    demoralised. The further the ego climbs, the harder it falls...
    
    	BTW that wasn't a dig at GL. I don't resent the pros having all the
    gear for two reasons:-
    
    	1. They do a helluva lot more miles than I do
    
    	2. They get paid to wear the stuff.
    
    Someone should say that to the 12 year old that was beside Rod and
    myself at the Worlds 'Cross last weekend. One of the pros went past in
    a brightly coloured top, sunglasses and a deep, deep tan. He said to
    his father "What a poseur!" Wonder if he realised 1� hours later that
    that same rider was pulling on the rainbow jersey?
    
    Graham.
           

     Graham, I don't think that "old timer" had an ego connected with
    equipment... Sounds more like he's into the paranormal given an
    expectation like that about sun glasses.
    
     But wait, he go very fast on campus with those shades (no bike of
    course - REEBOCK PUMPS, maybe)
    
      Chip

Reading of the soul searching people are going through to decide if STI or Ergo
are the way to go, raises one question for me. Has anyone compared these to the
GripShifts? I have recently gotten a Cannondale ATB with the GripShifts. I have
to admit to a certain reluctance at first, but the people in the shop were
unanimous that the GripShifts were much better than the STI thumb levers.

After 6 weeks of use, I have to agree. It's incredible how easy it is to shift
when all you need to do is rotate your wrist a little bit. As I understand, the
GripShifts are available for racing handlebars as well as ATB bars. They would
seem to be much lighter than the brake/shifter combinations. I would guess
they're cheaper too. So can anyone do me a favour and outline why the heavier,
more expensive option seems to be winning?

Thanks,
Tim

1 disadvantage in Gripshifts is when you are climbing with your hands gripping
the brake hoods and would like to shift (up, of course...).  This is where I see
a big difference comes out between the 2 shifting technologies...

Eric

     It jsut so happens that there is an article in this months 
    BICYCLING cover the very subject... I agree with Eric
    
      Chip

I assume that the advantage that STI/Ergo have over gripshift is that the
former put shifting right where your hands are - on the brakes. With 
gripshift on a road bike you would have to change your hand position to
make a shift, and it might not be any faster than using conventional down-
tube mounted gear levers.

I do think, mind you, that the ease of shifting given by STI/Ergo comes 
with significant weight and cost penalties. I'm *sure* the same
functionality could be achieved with much cheaper components and a little
bit of computing power... ooops! wrong note.


Rod

     "Significant weight penalties" is a very relative statement. 
    Personnally, I don't think a 1/4lb. or less is that significant.
    And it's easily compensated for by a few G's worth of Ti accessories
                                                                 :-)
    
     Chip
       

    
    I never noticed anybody challenging whether 8 sp. STI could only
    handle a 23T cog.  I have a buddy who is shopping and he would
    REALLY value this info.
    
    r�

    
    Performance sells Dura-Ace 8-sp HG cassettes all the way up to
    26T, but that doesn't ncessarily answer the STI question...
    or does it?
    
    r�

I'm running a 25 tooth cog with 600 Ultegra STI, works fine.

    For those of us who are slower, tour-type riders, but would love to put
    STI on our bikes because of the safety, flexibility, and ease-of-use...
    
    Will the STI shift a triple chainring?  
    
    Is the Ultegra a 7 or 8 speed (or both?)...
    
    Will the rumored soon-to-be-released 105 STI do both the above?

    D/A and 600 U. STI do not handle triples.  Allegedly, Campy Ergos
    do but you would need a compatible Campy drive train.
    
    Ultegra is 8 speed but you can put the U. brake/shift levers
    on a previously 7 spd U. bike satisfactorily.
    
    As for rumors, I'm not on Shimano's insider list, I dunno.
    
    ed

 Triples --- How about one of the mountain bike groups?  XTR, Deore XT, . .
 if you want to stay with Shimano?  Shifters might be a problem.
 

    re -.1:
    
    No, I ALREADY have the triple on the Cannondale - Deore XT.  And
    Ultegra downtube shifters which work fine.  I'd like to put the STI
    shifters on because I tried a bike with a set and loved being able to
    shift while keeping my hands on the brake hoods.  It doesn't sound like
    its gonna happen in the current Shimano incarnation - bummer :^(

     Just a point of clarity, the capacity I quoted is directly from
    Nashbar/Performance on the rear derailleur info. They are/have been
    right on with the Campy stuff...
    
     Chip

    Chip,
    
    I checked the D/A STI 23T "thing" by putting my D/A 7-spd on an
    STI equipped bike with a 26T.  It shifted, but _very_ sloppily.
    With a 7-sp, and a 23T top end, it shifted fine.  
    
    I use a 42T small ring.  For some rides, I would have to go to 
    the 39T small ring with that set-up, I'm sure.
    
    r�

>    Will the STI shift a triple chainring?  

just an idea. i recall seeing a recent velo news about andy hampsten's STI set
for the l'alpe d'huez stage. he used a conventional down tube shifter on the
front derailleur and an STI for the rear. this might be a nice compromise for
you if you want the convenience of STI style shifting but still ned a triple on
the front. i say this assuming that, like me, most of the shifting you do is
with the rear and not the front.

in my opinion you might not be losing that much. i found the shifts from the
small to large chainring difficult with STI anyway. seems like you really have
to throw the brake lever way over to get it to take the top chainring. i have
long fingers and i still found it awkward. this is an opinion of course and is
from having ridden an STI bike for only a few rides so i'm no expert..

    Campy Ergopower is suppose to handle a triple as well as lower gearing
    on the back.  Santana has is as an option on their tandems.  I did
    speak to one guy who is using it on his Santana Noventa and loves it.
    
    Steve

    One of the BMB bikes had a 600 STI lever for the rear and a barcon for
    the front.
    
    I don't perceive any problem shifting on/off the big ring with my
    D/A STI levers.  I use 42/53 chainrings.
    
    ed

     I'm quite sure Andy does not run a triple in the mountains. My
    Ergos seem to shift quite well - small to large chainrings.
    
     In fact, the article I read (if I recall accurately) stated that
    Andy uses a 42 small chainring to boot!
    
      Chip

    Has anyone had a look at the new Dura-Ace crank?  In the
    mail order catalogs, it says it requires the Dura-Ace
    bottom bracket.  I've heard, here and there, that it does
    not use the traditional crank bolt.
    
    If this is true, I'm giving up on Dura-Ace.  If I can use
    my current spindle and bolt, I'd like to know.  
    
    My group is all Dura-Ace, but I'd like to go up to 175mm 
    cranks.  I am also ready for a new rear derailleur, but if
    Shimano is gonna *&^%$)  me, I'll convert to Ultegra...
    
    
    r�

    The new D/A crank has a lower profile and uses a 5 mm shorter axle
    -- 108 mm instead of 113.  I do not know if you can substitute the
    108mm axle for the former 113 and not change cups.
    
    ed

>if Shimano is gonna *&^%$)  me, I'll convert to Ultegra...

why not switch to campy? :^)

Ultegra will undergo similar evolution.

ed