Conference noted::bicycle

    If you can get Lechmere to replace it, do that.

    I assume that it's a steel frame.  If it's just a little bent,
    a bike should be able to bend it back.

    If it's bent too far, you can get a bolt-on derailleur hanger.
    It's the thing that you see on most >$250 bikes.

    -Jeff

    You should know by now, You get what you pay for. Your first mistake
    was going to Lechmere to buy a bike. Those bikes are great to ride on
    the roads but don't put a lot of stress on it.  If I were you bring the
    bike back and tell them it did not hold up to off road riding. Then go
    out and buy a real bike at a good bike shop. this way if you have any
    problem they will take care of you. just remember you buy a cheap bike
    don't exspect it to hold up to hard riding.
    
    Mike

    I wouldn't say that this was exactly a cheap bike, it's about the same
    as the entry level in most shops if not a little higher.
    
    See if Lechmere's will fix it.  They have a nice guarantee and
    sometimes they do good things to stand by it.
    
    Other than that, fixing their bikes is the bread and butter of a lot of
    shops.
    
    ed

    
    thanks guys...
    
    didn't know about the bolt on. that sounds like a good option, if the
    store won't honor the warranty.
    
    regarding where to buy - *I* didn't buy the bike at lechmere's, he did. 
    i paid a little more and got a univega at the bike shop, and i've had
    nothing but good luck! only problem so far is a bent rim... and the
    shop straightened it as well as they could for free. And i've had 2
    tuneups for naught. When i asked the sales bozo at lechmere about a 30
    day tuneup on the shogun he said "this bike will never need a tuneup".
    gawk... 
    
    but my friend had 300 to spend, and not a penny more. and no bike shop
    could get him on anything. and the shogun seems to be a decent bike,
    it's a chrome-moly frame by the way (.1)... 
            

    
    This is probably the greatest single "danger" to a mountain bike frame.
    Something gets caught in the derailler when your hammering down the 
    trail and the derailler pulls up backward, self destructs and bends the
    dropout. I've broken three deraillers this way and bent the dropout on my 
    Stumpjumper (not seriously). I was able to bend mine back... but I was
    lucky. More expensive bikes come with Shimano forged dropouts, and new
    dropouts can be brazed on if torn off. Lechmere's is really  not
    responsible (this is just one of those things that happens on an MTB), but
    you can still try to get them to replace it. Let it be a learning 
    experience to both of you.... when the derailler jams, DON'T keep 
    pushing.  BTW, I've had sticks/grass/rocks all jam the derailler. 
    You can't prevent it if you ride off road. You can only hope that
    you're not putting your full weight into it at the time (like when
    you climb out of the saddle).  
    
    
    good luck,
    
    doug

     Shogun isn't exactly a dog... But Mike makes a (hidden). I've
    said this before, if you need a bike go to a  bike shop. If
    you need plumbing done don't hire an electrician.
    
     A bike shop is MUCH more prepared to be responsive to cycling needs than
    a department store. Even if YOU crunch something, sometimes cycling
    shops can "fanagle" something with the supplier and make it LOOK
    like defective materials and get a new one for free (my guys have done
    this for me).
    
     Of course, learning through experience is a part of growing up in
    this sport.
    
       Chip

    re: "Of course, learning through experience is a part of growing up in
    this sport."
    
    Unfortunately, it's like poker, you pay to learn...  :-(
    
    ed

    I had a customer who had the same problem with Lechmere. He was a 15
    years old kid who wanted to ride with his buddies and purchased a $200 
    bike from Lechmere. He brought the wheels in at day # 29 and I told
    him it would almost cost him just as much as the bike is worth to get a
    set a alloy wheels that would stand up to his type of riding (Pure off
    road stuff). I pointed out to his dad that he should bring the bike
    back to Lechmere since they have a 30 days return policy. They did and
    got all their money back and purchased a new Bridgestone MB-6. I saw 
    him last at the 30 day check up and that was it. It's been 3 months 
    now. 

    In General, you can give a good bike shop and Lechmere's the same $500
    MTB and I will guarantee that you will have to bring the bike
    back to Lechmere 3 or 4 times compare once at a good bike shop.
    The Lechmere mechanics are probably High School kids with previous 
    experience of a single speed BMX bike while a good bike shop would have 
    a certified mechanic on hand that has been around in the bike business 
    for a few more  years.

    Good Luck,
    
    Dave 

    well, just a little bit in defense of lechmere -

    a few years back I had a roommate who bought a cheap bike there. 
    it was poorly assembled and never rode right. in short, he got what he
    paid for. 

    I told my buddy this, and he agreed that he would look at the bike
    shops. I went with him. 

    No one was interested in his 300 dollars. I used to sell skis for a
    living; I know how it works. the customer says 300 and you show him
    400. but with skis, I could always work with people. Our shop took
    trades, we had used stuff... I could usually put somebody on stuff that
    was right for them. The bike shops we visited weren't like that. They
    all (4 or 5 different shops) told him to go save more money and come
    back, basically.

    we passed lechmere on our way home, and dave wanted to go in.

    The shogun is a nice bike. it's got a cromoly frame, it's got the same
    alloy wheels as my univega, and it has decent shimano components. It
    was well adjusted. I asked a salesman who assembled the bike, and was
    told that a local shop did the work for them. I have no way to confirm
    this. I suppose I could have asked who did the work, but didn't. 

    and most important at the time - the bike was $289, and there was a
    sale that took some more off, and he got it for under 300.

    so yes, he doesn't have to support of a quality bike shop. that was
    something that was important to me when I bought, and I went to a
    reputable shop. I haven't had to use the support much, and that's fine
    with me. but the store owner remembers me when I come in to buy
    accessories, and he always knocks a few bucks off, which makes me feel
    good. 

    I'll keep you posted on what happens when lechmere sees the bike.

    
    
    No explanations needed. In my experience, bike shops just don't give
    breaks! If you can catch them in a sale, then you can get a deal.
    If you buy the bike there, then they cut you some slack with problems 
    in the future. If you can't wait for a sale and you dont have the $$$, 
    then you buy what you can afford. I bought a used Stumpjumper because
    I couldn't afford a new one. I bought a used Cannondale road bike
    because I couldn't afford a new one. If I ripped the derailler hanger 
    off the Stumpjumper tomorrow, I'd be in the same position as your
    friend. It almost happened once. You can still develop a rapport with 
    a bike shop if you consistently use their services and get to know
    them. You can also get a little sympathy from dealers of the same brand
    of bike. Unfortunately, neither of the options seems to apply to your
    friend. 
    
    I think the guy is just unlucky. What happened to him could rip the 
    derailler hanger off of a much more expensive bike just as easily. 
    A bike shop might have been able to do something for him, but they
    would be under no obligation to. The question is:  what to do now? 
    I'd wait to see what Lechemere says, then start looking for options.
    There's no sense speculating on what a bike shop MIGHT have done in 
    the case. They MIGHT have done nothing.
    
    doug
    
       

Re: .10

I don't necessarily agree with your comment about "bike shops just don't give
breaks!"

They may not be able to compete $ wise because of the difference in volume and 
service but they can give breaks that neither department store nor catalogue 
companies can.  A local shop can build a rapport with their customers.  They
usually know much more about bikes and can remove the fears of a newcomer in the
sport.  How many of you would phone a dept store or catalogue place for some
advice on properly tightening a headset?  Most of you would trust a local shop
mechanic or salesperson.

Flame on.

They may be more expensive than KMart but they are not becoming millionaires and
they are in it with you for much more than 1 hour.  That's why I get so burned
up when I hear some penny-pincher get all the info from a bike shop, taking up 
valuable time away from a salesperson and then do their business via catalogue.
Most bike shop barely break even on the sale of bikes.  Their real
bread-n-butter comes from service and accessories.  If they tell you to come
back when you have enough money, they are being honest with you.  I'm sure that 
if they could sell you the bike that YOU need for the money that YOU have, and 
still make a decent profit, they would do it.

Q:  What is the percentage of bike shops that net more than $100,000/year?

Flame off.

Eric

    Eric,
    
    		That is a pretty good break down of a bike shop profit. The
    bike shop I go through is run by two brothers. They been in the bike
    shop since they were kids. Now they make a living on selling and
    repairs of bikes. They are not rich, but they do somehow make a living
    by doing it. I see a lot of people bring in there department store bike
    and want it fix cheap. when they say how it it cost the reply is always
    the same," That's almost as much as I payed for the bike." the bike
    shops I know all give good breaks if you by a bike from them.
    		I hate people that buy equipment from a book, then go to a
    bike shop and ask how to put in on. This kills the local bike shop!
    
    
    
    Mike  thats_support_the_local_bike_shop

    If the bike shops don't make money selling, why do they? If the
    money is in service, why not do just that? Their inventory and
    expenses would be lower, and they would be concentrating on where
    the money supposedly is. This certainly works for cars.
    I agree it's a shame when a good shop can't compete with the 
    mail order places, but then they can't compete with the bike
    shops with service. Each can still make money tho.
    
    John

    
    I have a hard time with the "no-profit" song. with skis, there is a
    100% markup. 100%. sales that knock 50% or more are common, and the
    shop still makes money. the ski shop where i worked wouldn't work on
    skis that weren't bought there. too busy with their own stuff. and they
    wouldn't even consider mounting skis that weren't bought there.
    insurance, they say. customer could break his leg skiing with outdated
    bindings, why be responsible? 
    
    we also had the customers who would come in and steal our knowledge.
    some guy would come in with feet like a baboon, and spend over an hour
    trying on every boot we had in stock. something would finally fit, and
    the bozo would (this really happened) take out a pen and write down the
    model and size and say "I'll be back tomorrow". sure you will, bud.
    
    ok, so bikes aren't skis. good point. but they are both specialilty
    shops. and they both make money. I said it before - I bought at a bike
    shop. theur knowledge was important to me. i used them for that, and
    then i bought a bike. but let's face it - not everybody gets into
    cycling full bore. and for alot of people, $300 is alot of money to pay
    for a bike that might not get alot of use. 

    If you figure only the "Costs" associated with selling a bike, then a
    bike shop makes money on a sale.  However if you figure "Expenses" and
    add them to the Cost, it often exceeds the sale price of the bike.
    
    COSTS = bike + shipping.
    
    EXPENSES = time ordering, time assembling, time selling, floor space
    overhead, and usually a 30 day re-adjustment (more time).
    
    The time a bike shop spends on a customer selling a bike can range from
    several minutes to several hours.  The reason why there is such a
    variable for selling time is because a bike might be shown and test
    ridden several times before it is sold.
    
    Dave

    
    Eric,  when I said that most bike shops just don't give breaks, 
    I meant that to mean that they they don't give breaks on the purchase
    price of a new bike. I wrote that in the context of the base noter
    making comments about how the bike shops just would not deal with his
    friend. They do give breaks in other ways ( can swap a pair of tires or 
    throw in a water bottle and cage, or in service), but that means
    nothing to the guy who doesn't have enough $$$ to get in the door. 
    
    I'm not implying that I believe bike shops make loads of money of the 
    sale of bikes. I think that the profit on new bikes is pretty low. 
    I think most bike shops make their money on service ( wheel building, 
    bike adjustment and overhaul, headset/hubset/bb installation/overhaul) 
    and accessories ( which they DO mark up 50-100%... and I could flame
    on this one. I would be GLAD to patronize any bike shop that could even
    come within 20% of the price of a Nashbar or Performance on the same
    item). 
    I just don't think it's fair to get down on some guy who really 
    didn't have the money for a bike shop bike. Let them eat cake, right?
    
    doug
    
    
    

    The normal markup on bikes, before discounts is in the 30-35% range.
    If a bike cost $1,000 to the shop, add shipping $30.00 and assembly
    (estimate 1-2 hours depending upon complexity) and retail will probably
    be $1495.  Most likely buyers will walk out of a shop at around 1,350
    to 1,400.  
    
    Bikes to not have inflated prices like the ski business.
    
    Those that succeed in the bike business are ones who love the sport. 
    This credibility is critical to success.  (I worked for a guy who
    has no interest in bicycling, only as a business, he went bankrupt
    in 3 years)
    
    steve

Re: .13

My best guess is that only a small percentage of the people buy from catalogues.
The majority buys bike that are under $200.  These bikes tend not to last very 
long and go in the trash bind or used bike market.  The people who go to a bike
shop are ready to buy a good bike (whether they need it or will use it - they 
just want the best) and want the best attention/service/advice.  The before
income tax profit for a $300-$500 bike is about $60.  This may vary depending
on the discounts that the dealer can get from the distributor (early payment,
volume, end of year clearance) and/or the discount offered to the customer.  
When you think about it, it's peanuts considering the amount of work in selling
the bike and the aggravation of people that think the shop "owes" them every
time the derailleur needs adjusting.

Bike shops tend to notice "usuals" that come in, ask a lot of questions about
a product and go away withough making a buy.  Later they often come by with the
product on their bike (unless the product IS the bike).  These tend to be the
catalogue shoppers and are quickly ignored when they return to the shop.  When
they get upset because theyare ignored, the usual reply from the shop owner is:
"Why should I help you?  You come here numerous times, ask a lot of questions
but never buy.  I have a business to run and I rather spend my time on more
productive work".  This usually p*sses the person off but, hey, they never spend
money there anyways.  Servicing of catalogue bought equipment is often denied or
charged big $.

Eric

    
    Sign in Peter Hare's shop in Twyford, Berks:
    
    	"Not for �1000 will I work on a catalogue-order bike."
    
    ...or something very close to that (the �1000 isn't paraphrased).
    
    It sounds kind of harsh, and maybe even to the bike shop owner's
    disadvantage, but you can understand his feelings, given the
    foregoing discussion.
    
    -john

	Mike,

	Thanks for putting this note in and getting the discussion ball 
	rolling.  I was off-site yesterday at our group outing and when 
        I came back to work I couldn't believe all the replies already.

        I have a firm belief that you get what you pay for, I've always
        believed that and I think that's the way it should be.  I am not
        about to get into any kind of "politics" but I will say that we
        live in a capitalist society and competitive pricing is a way of
        life in the good 'ole US of A.  The best way to usually stay in
        business is to offer quality products and services at
        competitive prices, that's not always easy to do.  I would never
        expect any kind of "quality" service's from any department store
        chain.  There claim to fame is CHEAPER prices by doing things in
        large volumes.

        My defense is quite simple like Mike said.  I had $300 bucks to
        spend period.  It was my first bike, I had no idea if I would
        even like it.  Like the 8 year old that is sure they are going
        to be a professional skate boarder in 10 years and MUST HAVE the
        $1500 model, you know with the gas permeated suspension system,
        noeon road runner quartz lighting system, etc...  You know what
        Mom and Dad do every time, buy the cheapo model to make sure the
        kid will stick with, and usually the kid don't.

        Well in my case I did fall for biking, I love it.  I think the
        bike is pretty high quality for what I spent on it.  At the
        price I paid I could have bought a second brand new one at
        Lechmere and still spent less than what some of the sales folks
        in bike stores wanted me too.

        Okay, Okay, as some of you have said, flame off ....

        So I called Lechmere and they informed me to bring the bike to
        any branch, I'll go to Worcester because I live in Shrewsbury
        though I bought it in Framingham.  They were real nice on the
        phone, they said hey it's under warranty, bring it in.  We
        should replace it or fix it, more than likely replace it.  Now I
        have to get buy whoever I show it to and convince them I didn't
        do anything totally absurd to cause it to happen.  I have had
        some good mileage out of it since I bought it on 7/25.  I even
        rode to work ( Shrewsbury to Marlboro almost 15 miles ) for a
        couple of weeks over the summer.  I'm hoping they will replace
        it.  If so, I hope I can get another Shogun Trail breaker with
        the same awesome Shimano indexed shifting setup.

        Stay tuned, I'll let everyone know what happens.  Thank you very
        much for all the responses and information from all of you.

        Dave  

If the local bike shop makes their largest margin on servicing and the smallest
on new bike sales, then why would they object to taking service business
from a customer who bought their bike from a catalogue???

tim

    
    -.21  I agree with you tim...  sounds like bike shops are missing the 
          market...  Perhaps a sign like "we specialize in department /
          mail order repair" would help the local bike shops profit
          margin...
    
          I can see the other side of the issue too and can feel for the 
          bikeshop owner, but a business has to follow the market to be
          successful...   
    
          jim o.
    
    
    	  

I find it kind of hard to believe that a shop would turn away anybody for 
service. It's sorta hard to know when somebody comes in whether or not they got
the beast from a catalog. When we were real busy, we'd kind of prioritize
service - generally, our own customers got the fastest service, for a variety of
reasons. Generally, we could never bring ourselves to charge folks with
dept. store bike for the full repair bill either; we used to fix a lot of stuff
on those bikes for free just so's they be safe to ride. As for markup, we ran
20% over cost, which had to pay for employees, heat/rent, and everything else.
Our prices were a bit lower than other shops in the area, so the prev. figure
of 30-35% is probably typical.

As for replacing things on warranty, we tried to be nice, but some things
kind of got to us - one chap wanted us to replace his frame on warranty after
it (and almost he) got run over by a cement truck. We had a tough time with
that....

As to the idea of selling only services / accessories, that would've been too
ludicrous to contemplate.
                            ken

	I hate working these funny shifts. I always come back on shift to find
  a good discussion already going. Still, I'm always one to bite...

	I think that you're all being a bit unfair on high street department
  stores.
	Admittedly, the main difference between the two is the expertise of
  their staff. At an established cycle shop, their reputation is at stake every
  time they deal with you. They are experienced, knowledgable and have a great
  love for cycling, possibly started from being ex-racing men. On the other
  hand, at the high street department store, all the staff know is that a bike
  is that funny looking thing in the corner and if they manage to sell it to
  you, their boss is going to be chuffed to bits and give them a nice bonus.
	But before you decide where you're going to buy your new bike from,
  you've got to ask what kind of bike you're going to buy, and more importantly
  how's it going to be used.
	If Chip is going to buy his new 8-speed Campagnolo group set from
  Lechmere (although going by your experiences, Retchmore sounds a better name)
  then he needs to have long talk with his psychiatrist. But if your looking
  for a new bike for your 10 year old son, who is going to grow too big for it
  in a couple of years unless he manages to do his ET impression off the bridge
  over the local motorway and go straight through the roof of the lorry going
  under it at the time, then you want to get it as cheap as possible. Does it
  matter that the bike is poorly assembled? The little bugger's going to wreck
  it within a couple of weeks anyway.
	The local bike shop owner is always going to give priority to his
  regulars, and quite right. There's the incentive to get your new bike from
  him.
	For most guys in this conference, a bike shop is the answer. Just don't
  write off the department store so easily.

  Graham.

I'm back...

Let's think like a shop owner for a bit...

Priority #1:  Regulars.  People who bought their bike there, come back from time
	      to time to buy accessories, clothing.  You know them.

Priority #2:  Potential regulars.  They didn't buy from you (for distance or
	      time reasons) but they come in, ask questions and buy stuff.

Priority #3:  Waste of timers.  People who come in often enough that you 
	      recognize them but may not know their name because they never give
	      you the chance to write it on a bill of sale.  From what they ride
	      or wear, they must buy somewhere.  Of course, you may not know but
	      you do know it's not from you.

Being a capitalist, I certainly believe that a person has the choice to shop 
where he/she wants based on their chosen criteria.  But they must realize that
if the criteria is price only - don't expect great service later on.

Actually, if Chip could buy his Campy stuff from Lechmere at a greatly reduced
price, he should do it as long as he doesn't mind installing it and that he
didn't get a local shop to do all the footwork before hand.  Many people who
buy high end rather service their own equipment anyway.

Eric

    
    Actually, I do all the stuff (repairs/replacement) that I can. So
    I do shop the catalogues regularly, but generally give the shop a
    crack beatin' them...
    
      Chip

Follow up on Lechmere return for a bent dropout:

Just wanted to let you all know that Lechmere has given me a credit for my
Shogun.  They will replace the bike or give me a store credit.  Now the task
at hand is to try to find the same bike.  That is what I told them I would
like to do.  I hope they can come up with the same model or at least one that
has ALL the features that my trail blazer did, the same wheels, shifting, 
brakes, etc ..  I'll let ya know what I end up with.

It was nice to see them stand behind the guarantee!!  They didn't even ask me
any questions about what happened.  I can't complain about this treatment so
far!!

Dave

    I'd take the credit and buy a TV. Same thing'll happen next month
    if you get another bike there.
    
    John

    
    Hmmm... I don't know.  Sounds pretty good to me.  We've already
    heard that this is not a bad bike.  Sounds like a generous deal.
    In fact, I wonder what a shop would do?  They would probably be
    expert enough to know/suspect that the bent dropout may well have
    been caused by one of the normal risks of off-road biking.  And
    they might give the customer a break on service or replacement,
    but I don't think they'd just take the frame back no questions
    asked, like Lechmere did.
    
    Anyway, sounds like you had good fortune.
    
    -john

    Getting back onto the track...
    
    I was working on my winter/touring bike last night in the hope that
    that would persuade the weather to get better.
    
    The last time I took this bike up I went a/tip in a sand-hole and (I
    thought) bent the derailleur.  On inspection last night I discoverred that
    in fact the derailleur is OK, but that the drop-out has been bent.  
    Thusfar no problems (except that I run touring gears on this bike and
    thus a longarm changer to the dropout has to be well aligned).
    
    The problem comes in that the frame is Aluminium - all of it.  Is this
    going to present any problems to the bikeshop in getting it straight ?
    
    /rod

    I severely bent the dropout and deraileur hanger on my Trek 2000 back
    in '87.  My shop bent it back into place after advising me that this
    action might break the dropout or something.  No problems with it after
    that.
    
    Using it with a bent dropout can cause the axle to break.
    
    ed

When I first got the machine, I had trouble getting the extremes on the inside
ring, 39/52 by 15-18,20,22,26.  I fiddled for a long time, eventually took it to
Daniel in Fusberti's and he j-j-jiggled it a bit (to quote Ronnie Barker) and it
has been fine ever since.

I think it's a question of degree, and I suspect you have done yours a severe
nasty, I would favour cutting it off all together and using an old Campag
hanger designed for bikes without a brazed on fitting - I might even be able to
find one in my box.

If the mis-alignment is small then trying a different gear mech is worthwhile -
Campag Chorus seem to be a bit particular whereas Shimano and SunTour don't,
maybe it's the "floating" jockey sprocket.

    Thanks, I'll phone up the bikeshop and get it booked in.
    
    (I'm not sure if the campy-widget will do - I tried fitting one I had
    lieing around and came to the conclusion that I was in trouble since
    the drop-ins are vertical).  Anyway I'll see what McDonalds say.
    

>>>   Anyway I'll see what McDonalds say

I love it - a Big Mac and while you're at it, fix my bent drop-out.......

           ;>)

    I've some twofer coupons, bring a second one in and get it fixed
    for free...
    
    :-)
    
    ed