Conference noted::bicycle

A possibility is that the L limit stop has changed.  This could have been caused
by the screw moving, the stop bending, or the screw holder bending.  I'd bet on
it being one of the later two.  You may be able to fix the problem by readjusting
the screw; if that doesn't work, then you may have to replace the derailleur.

Also, how old is your chain?

You shifting may not have been working perfectly before the fall, but may have
been less consistent about being erratic.  A good chain is very important for an
index shifting system to work correctly.  This would be the first thing that I
would replace (besides they're a lot cheaper than a derailleur).

Rich

    What kind of fall was it?  Could you have bent the deraileur?  It does
    not take much (these days) to make them worthless.
    
    ed

>    What kind of fall was it?  Could you have bent the deraileur?

    Could you have bent the derailleur hanger?

    Does it  work in friction (non-index) mode? If not, something like
    the  limit  screw  could  be out of adjustment. If it does work in
    friction  mode, then either the cable is mis-adjusted or something
    is subtly bent so it no longer fits the freewheel spacing exactly.

--David

	If you suspect a bent derailleur hanger, it's about a 2 minute
	check at a bike shop to test. There's a tool that screws into the
	derailleur hanger and checks alignment; if it's out you bend it
	back in (If it's steel).

	The other thing I would check is to make sure your rear wheel
	didn't skew in the fall. Make sure it's even between the chain stays.

	Steve

    re: "If it's steel"  You can do it if it's aluminum also.  My Wrek 2000
    had a pretty seious bend in it and after the mechanic pointed out that
    bending it back might work and might break it, I ok'd it with "Wot the
    'eck, it ain't wuth much as it is"  It was fixed and is fine.
    
    Oh, did I say "Wrek," I meant "Trek," of course. :-)
    
    ed

Re .1-.6
I've adjusted the limit stops numerous times, but cannot get smooth shifting.
My chain is only a few thousand miles old, is fairly clean, and isn't obviously
causing any problems.
The derailleur got a fairly hard knock off the ground when I took a tumble. Its
very likely that it is bent, but I can't visually see where. 
By the "derailleur hanger" do you mean the bracket on the frame where the 
derailleur is mountyed, or do you mean part of what I considered to be the 
derailleur itself?
The gears don't have friction mode (damn new fangled things!)

I may have to go to a bike shop anyway because I got the rear wheel replaced
a couple of weeks ago and they didn't grease the bearings correctly, so maybe
I can blame them/ask them to look at the shifting while they are at it.

Thanks for the help.

    Re .7:  "Only a few thousand miles old" - a few thousand miles is a
    long time in the life of a chain for derailleur systems! It probably is
    worth replacing it, and a good chain like a Sedisport is not expensive.
    
    The derailleur hanger is part of the frame. It's on the right-hand rear
    dropout, just underneath the slot for the wheel - crude diagram
    follows:
    
                   /  / seatstay
                  /  /
                 /  /
                /   \    chainstay
               /  /\ \----------------
               |  \ \----------------
                \--
                |O|  <-derailleur hanger
    
    It's only a screw-hole mounted on a little extra bit of metal. It's
    quite vulnerable to being bent inwards in a crash, because the
    derailleur, which screws into it, has a lot of leverage on it. If it
    does bend, it will definitely mess up the gear shifting. Let a bike
    shop look at it, it's an easy repair, but better left to the shop.
    
    
    Rod
               
    

    Yes, the derailleur hanger is bent. And after a very quick and foolish
    attempt to fix it with a large pliers, I think I will leave it to the 
    bike shop!
    
    How does one tell the difference between a good chain and a bad chain
    (apart from price), and how much should one expect to pay (in UK prices, 
    say)?
    
    Patrick

    >How does one tell the difference between a good chain and a bad chain
    >(apart from price), and how much should one expect to pay (in UK prices, 
    >say)?
    
    I bought a Sedis Gold (good chain) this w/e for �12.50 this seemed
    reasonable.  I also bought a Sedis black (OK chain) for ~�6.00 at the
    same time.  I don't know how one tells good from bad at time of
    purchase tho' - I have found a marque which suits me and I stick with
    it.  
    
    rod

    
    The difference between the Sedis gold and black seems to be that
    one is gold and one is black ... and the price.  Consensus of opinion
    is that the Sedisport black is not only a good buy, but equal to or
    superior to most any other chain, regardless of price.  It's kind
    of an anomaly in product price/value.
    
    Of course, I haven't tried the Roloff (sp?) 8sp chain yet... :-)
    
    -john

I think you're right, John, and it's just the trendy colour.  Black, silver and
Gold seem all the same quality - I must ask at Fusberti's.  Certainly I have
used the black ones normally but am trying a silver at the moment, I have both
types on wide-ratio 7-speed set-ups and can't really tell the difference (apart
from the hole in my wallet).

Buy the cheaper, good ones (ie: Sedis) and throw them away regularly is my
advice.  For what it's worth, the riders in the TdF are reputed to change
their chains every 3 days........  Perhaps I should follow them round and pick
up the rejects, just like tennis balls at Wimbledon !!

    I just use Sedis, and have only had good results. When I first went
    index-shifted on one bike, I bought a Shimano uniglide. It was junk; it
    suffered from stiff links which I could never cure. I replaced it with
    a cheaper Sedisport and had no problems. The shifting was just as good.
    
    More recently I was tempted to buy one of the more expensive Shimano
    chains, around �11 in the UK, for a 7-speed hyperglide system. But I
    bought a black Sedisport and it worked without fuss. 
    
    I change chains at the beginning of the season. For reasons of pure
    vanity I bought a Sedis silver this year, but after a few hundred km it
    looks just the same as a black (that is, they both look black).
    
    
    Rod

	I must be the only one but . . .

	I had a problem with a Sedis chain.  My bike has 600EX components
	and came with a Uniglide chain.  Never had a problem with it.
	When chain replacement time came, I put on a Sedis.  A couple of weeks
	later, in a triathlon, the chain popped off at the front when
	shifting to the large ring.  Looking at it later, everything
	seemed to be OK, but I tightened up the front derailleur travel
	anyway.  A couple of weeks later, in another race, it happened
	again.  So . . . I went back to Uniglide.  Never had a problem
	since.  Maybe has something to do with Bio-pace?

	Anyway, the overwhelming evidence seems to be in favor of Sedis,
	so you probably should ignore this and just buy one.

	chris

    I used  to have absolutely awful luck with Sedis chains, but I now
    have  one  on  my  recumbent  and it works fine. I'm told that the
    standard  Sedis  chains  don't work well on wide range gearing, so
    that  might  have been the problem. When Sedis didn't work for me,
    the Shimanos worked well.

--David

    
    I notice that the silver chain cleans much easier than the black.  I
    think this is due to the smoother surface of the silver.  Since I am
    always cleaning my chains I like the silver.  
      I am not a fan of Shimano chains.  I especially dislike the hyperglide
    chains.  They have to be taken apart at certain pins and the pin has to
    be replaced at this time.  I know a few people who do not follow this
    process and have suffered in a race as a result.  A broken chain ruins
    the day.
    
    							Norm
    
    

>
>   I'm told that the
>    standard  Sedis  chains  don't work well on wide range gearing, so
>    that  might  have been the problem. 
>

	No, it was 42/53 and 13-21.    But it doesn't really matter.
	The bike's fine now and, actually, I haven't even ridden that
	much this year.

	chris

 <I looked through most of this conference and this looks like the best
   spot for this request.>

   Can anyone suggest a book or guide that decsribes how to adjust and 
 maintain Shimano STI derailleurs. I'm a biking novice and I could probably
 figure out what all of the little screws do but I don't want to have 
 learn the hard <$$$> way. I live in northern Mass. so if you can suggest a
 location on where it available that would also help. 


	thanks,

	-mike

    I know this must have been discussed in here before someplace, but
    anyway....
    
    1) Shift to the smallest rear cog (highest gear).
    2) Adjust the position of the derailleur so the pulleys are lined
       up exactly below the cog.  There's a limit screw that determines
       where it ends up.
    3) Shift to the second-to-smallest cog.  Adjust the cable tension
       by twisting the barrel at the end of the cable until the pulleys
       line up under that cog.  
    4) Shift back and forth between these last two cogs, fine-tuning
       the position and smoothness of shift.
    5) Shift to the largest rear cog, changing the front to the small ring.
       Set the lower limit screw on the derailleur so the pulleys don't
       go into the spokes.
    
    If this doesn't work, you're outside the range of casual adjustment.
    Call me, offer a bottle of french wine, and we'll see what we can
    do....
    
    
    MATT

    >If this doesn't work, you're outside the range of casual adjustment.
    >Call me, offer a bottle of french wine, and we'll see what we can
    >do....
    
    Hey Mat,  No problem for the wine, can you come over (to Scotland) and do
    my bike up sometime :-)
    
    rod

	Yes, I think you can probably get a round trip via Nice and do mine (all
4 of them) on the way back...............

	I have problems with keeping the friction levers tight on my old frame
probably because the threads are so clapped out.  I have tried the well-known
tub cement cure (also works on axle bolts) but no good so far,  I have thought
of buying new mechs with index but my fellow old=timers would fall off their
Ordinaries laughing.  I think I shall have to resort to car body filler and a
tap to remake the threads.

	On the other bike the problem is different - the sweat falls onto the
levers and when left for a couple of days, they are impossible to move......

    Well, stop sweating then Robin.

Thanks, Rod.......

Trouble is it's too hot going up and then it's caused by fear going down.  wish
I'd been able to stay with you during L'Epervier to see any leaks on your
forehead.  Rob said it was so bad behind me on the Col de Vence the other day
that he was thinking of putting mudguards on, on the other hand it's a major
plus in the argument for a new Dural frame.

    Robin, why dont you fix an electric fan onto the handlebars, you could
    drive it from a dynamo... :-)
    
    rod

	Come on, I already have lead weights on the pedals, and a bidon full of
lead shot (� la Robic) just to make it more difficult.  I'm working on water-
filled Michelins next to keep down to JW's speed (just a test to check if he
reads this file!!).  Of course I have a 22 oz tubular in a figure-of-eight
around my shoulders, and I have to stop and get my fingers dirty when I need to
turn the wheel round from 46x16 to 46x22 for the climbs..........

  Rep .19


    Thanx, for the info Matt. No problem will the bottle of french wine as
   long as I can help you drink it.  


	-mike

	I just started having the following problem, any ideas.

	The chain jumps from the middle chainring to the smallest chainring when
	I'm climbing a hill. The bike is a Giant Innova with Shimano 300ex 
	components. The front derailleur seems to shift smoothly between all
	three chainrings and I haven't noticed the problem between the large
	chainring and the middle one. 


	-mike

	<matt is this a "casual" or a "bottle of wine" adjustment???  ;-)  >

    If it's not the obvious -- the front derailleur simply rubbing 
    the chain enough that additional force of hillclimbing is enough
    to drag it over -- then check the following:
    
    1) Maybe the bottom bracket is loose.  Check to see whether the 
       crank arm can be moved side to side -- it shouldn't.  Tightening
       this correctly takes the proper tools; if the bike is relatively
       new, you should make the shop do it.
    
    2) Maybe the derailleur pulley is offset relative to the chainring.
       Stand behind the bike and see if the chain angles badly to the
       right as it goes from the pulley to the bottom of the chainring
       up ahead.  A fall might have bent the derailleur towards the  
       wheel; it can be bent back (on a steel bike) if so.  Or, the
       frame could be misaligned....
    
    

Back a while someone asked how you can tell if a chain is worn.
Well, they start out being 12 inches long for every 24 links.
As they wear they get longer.  By the time those same 24 links
get to be 12 1/8 inches long the chain is dead.  Also you can
tell by the amount of bend to the side the chain permits.
If they flex side to side too far, they won't shift well.

You can tell if you waited to long to change chains if the
chain rings and/or freewheel cogs have a bathtub shaped bottom
rather than a nice semicircular bottom AND the new chain skips
on the old chainrings and/or freewheel.  [I got lucky this time.]

R.

    My daughter's bikes are both 12-speed huffy. (kind of an off brand
    ,huh?) These bikes are both pretty new so wear shouldn't be an issue.
    I'm currently trying to adjust the derailleur so it'll shift between hi
    and lo gears without taking Swatzenegger's strength to to move the
    shift lever. I'm following the adjustment instructions found in this
    note,any other suggestions?
    
    Ken

    After only about 900 miles on a new cluster and chain, my chain was
    slipping when I would push a gear hard or stand to climb a hill.  I
    took the bike to the shop which replaced the chain and cluster and also
    realigned the derailleur.  They adjusted everything on the stand.
    
    When I rode into work today the shifting was ok in one direction but
    when I went into a lower gear (i.e. from 13 to 14 or 14 to 16 etc.) I
    would have to spin three or four times before it settled into gear.  I
    have indexed shifting and the spin-before-settling had rarely happened
    before.  
    
    My questions are:  Is there an adjustment I can make myself to correct
    this problem?  If so what is it?  I printed out Matt's note a few
    replies back.  Do these instructions apply to all index shifting
    systems even mixed ones?  Should I take the bike back to the shop to
    get this done (I'd rather do it myself it it is relatively straight
    forward.)  
    
    One other question is should a chain and cluster wear out in 900 miles? 
    How often should I expect to replace them?
    
    Thanks,
    Rick
     

    
>    When I rode into work today the shifting was ok in one direction but
>    when I went into a lower gear (i.e. from 13 to 14 or 14 to 16 etc.) I
>    would have to spin three or four times before it settled into gear.  I
>    have indexed shifting and the spin-before-settling had rarely happened
>    before.  
    
>    My questions are:  Is there an adjustment I can make myself to correct
>    this problem?  If so what is it?  I printed out Matt's note a few
>    replies back.  Do these instructions apply to all index shifting
>    systems even mixed ones?  Should I take the bike back to the shop to
>    get this done (I'd rather do it myself it it is relatively straight
>    forward.)  
 
It's a pretty simple adjustment to try yourself before you get the shop
involved.  I'm guessing your cable is a little loose since it's sluggish
moving to the inside of the cluster.  Try turning the barrel adjustment
counterclockwise one notch at a time until it snaps into gear without
hesitating.  The adjustment is at the base of the derailler where the cable
housing ends.
   
>    One other question is should a chain and cluster wear out in 900 miles? 
>    How often should I expect to replace them?

I replace my chain and cluster every Spring.  I typically put on about
2500 miles a year and keep the drivetrain clean and well-lubed.  Never had
a problem.    


-Buddy

900 miles might be time for a new chain, depending upon the environment you
operate it in and the maintenance you put into it.  But you should be able to
get a whole lot more out of the cluster!  If you watch the chain elongation
and catch it before it gets to be more that 1/8" over 12", then you shouldn't
have to replace the cluster everytime you replace the chain.  I replace my chain
about every 1000 miles, and my clusters only when all else fails.

Rich

RE: Chain life

Tightwad that I am, I've put about 6000 miles on my current chain, a Sedissport
of some kind. Still doing OK by me.
						-- Tom

    
    	Are we talking mountain bikes, or street bikes, or all?
    
    	I have almost 300 miles on my hybrid, and plan on being at about
    	500 by next week ... that means I'd have to replace the chain
    	every 2 or 3 months?
    

RE: <<< Note 1993.35 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "Holy rusted metal, Batman!" >>>
    
>    	Are we talking mountain bikes, or street bikes, or all?

Good point, sorry I didn't mention it. My experience is on road bikes (ridden
on the road). I imagine that off-road riding would wear chains out faster (as
more debris gets kicked up and lodged in/on the chain).
						-- Tom

Most of my riding is on road bikes.  I rode 6000 miles last year, so I probably
used 5 or 6 chains (total over 3 bikes).  I replace my chains more frequently in
the winter and less frequently in the summer.  A chain costs about 1/2 as much
as a cogset, so as soon as you've put the fourth chain on without replacing the
cogset you're saving money.  By replacing my chains often I also avoid having to
replace my chainrings, though those usually last longer than a cogset.

Rich
(Who rode 1000 miles in June and will probably do that much in July.)

    
    	How much does a chain go for?
    
    	A cogset?
    

    From a recent Nashbar catalog:
    	Chains:
    		Sedisport (least expensive) 7.95
    		Shimano Hyperglide 91	   18.00
    
    	Cogsets:
    		Dura-Ace	$39.95
    		Ultegra		$34.95
    		105sc		$29.95
    		Deore -XT	$46.95
    
    
    	Chainrings:
    		Compact Drive:	$6.50 (inner)
    		Standard ATB	$10.48 (inner) $14.50 (middle) $18.25(outer)
    		Road		$29.99 (either)
    
    

    IMHO, replacing a chain every 1000 miles on a roadbike is OTT. It
    should last at least 5 times that if you keep it clean and lubed (and
    it's a decent one, say Sedisport). It's easy to check if it's
    stretching - there's a note somewhere here describing that if you don't
    know how.
    
    Chris                            

    re .32
    I tried doing the barrel adjustment as described.  I was able to adjust
    it eventually so that the high gears shifted better but then the low
    gears would slip.  When I readjusted so that the low gears did not slip
    then the high gears would do their spin-a-few-times-before-settling
    trick.  So, I think it must be a different adjustment.  I need to take
    my Son's MTB into the shop today anyway (He lost the retaining nut on
    his left crank), so I think I will take my road bike in for them to
    correct this.  I will in the meantime reread Matt's note (a few back)
    on how to adjust the derailleur starting with the limit(?) adjustment.
    
    It was soo frustrating not being able to get a proper adjustment that I
    almost forgot how great the weather and route was for my ride home.
    
    Thanks for the advice anyway!
    Rick
    

The distance between the top jockey sprocket and the block itself can have a 
marked effect on the changing.  Most mechs have a little screw which presses 
on the gear hanger to adjust this - could be worth giving it a go ....  I did 
some work on a VTT the other day (it's OK - I washed my hands and my mouth 
out afterwards with soap and water), the owner was complaining of  jumping 
and bad changes - turned out it had been washed with the same soap and water 
and had about 20% stiff links.