Conference noted::bicycle

    By doing a  Notes> dir/title=Terry  I found the following three
    notes... one you might be familiar with already.
    
   825  FSLPRD::PCOREY       16-AUG-1988     9  Terry Dealers?
  1061  EUCLID::PAULHUS      22-MAR-1989     2  Georgena Terry visit...local?
  1846  SONATA::KENEFICK     18-FEB-1991     0  Terry
    
    
    Rod

My wife bought a Terry Symmetry last year.  She is just under 5' tall,
 The Terry in the 16"-17" range frame (can't remember off-hand the exact
 size she got) is the only one she could straddle.  The bike was a Godsend,
 as she no longer has the knee pains that came with tying to fit a 19"
 Mixte frame to her.  Smaller Terry's use a 24" front wheel.

These bikes are very well made, and they can be faulted only for high price
 and cheap (Panaracer) tires.  The latter is easy to fix.  The former will
 take an act of congress because the import duties on bicycles with mixed
 wheel sizes are higher than those with one size wheel.

Georgina Terry comes to Hagget's Bike shop in Concord once or twice a year. 
 We learned from her that women's bodies are usually proportioned differently 
 than men's, so even taller women can benefit from a Terry.  But this also
 worked for my wife, who is short legged and long bodied, unlike most women,
 simply because no other bike was small enough for her. 

Be careful with 26" and 27" wheel-size bikes on small frames.  The head tube
 is made so short that two problems arise:  The headset bearings take strong
 side loads, and the verticle part of the handle bar stem may not fasten in 
 securely.  Also the handlebars may be too high or the frame too long.

Even if you do a Fit-Kit, beware that it is oriented toward men's builds, 
 unless it's been revised.

I saw some small Terrys heavily discounted at the ski shop at the cross country
 center at Waterville Valley.  Give them a call.

Terry also makes a mountain bike, but there seems to be more competition in
 small size mountain bikes (e.g., Offroad, Ibis).  But still beware of men's
 proportioning of frames.

Good Luck, Tom

    The only  thing  I don't like about them is that she uses differnt
    wheel  sizes.  You  clearly  need  a  24" wheel for the front, but
    there's  no  good  reason  not  to use a 24" rear wheel as well. I
    asked  her  about  this,  and  she said that she used the 27" rear
    wheels because it was easier to get normal gears that way. I don't
    buy  it.  24"  is about 10% smaller than 27", so you need 10% more
    gear ratio. Switching from a 13 tooth cog to a 12 tooth just about
    does  that.  I also think that most bikes have gearing that is too
    high  for most riders. I never use my 100" gear, and rarely use my
    82"  gear.  The new bike's top gear will be 90", which is good for
    27 mph at a 100 cadence.

--David

Hi,

I have two Terry's.  I own the precision which I think is the top of the 
line frame. I am very pleased with it. In the last three years I've covered
13,000 miles. Most of them on this road bike (the rest on a tandem).

I'm 5'6" plus and my Terry has two 700C wheels. So I don't have the two
different size wheels. This bike has been all fun, no problems.  Fit makes
all the difference in the world.

I also own the Mt Marcy - the mountain bike. I agree there is more competition
in the Mt bike area, but I was still stuck with the issue of the top tube
being two long. After a bunch of hunting, I gave up and went back to the Terrys.
No regrets.

It is bucks for these bikes. If I did it all again I would still spend the money
on the top end Terry, but that's given the kind of miles I do. I know there
are some lower end models for less.  

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Dani

    re -1
    
    	Take Dani's advice for face value.  She kick's my
    butt all over New Hampshire.  Now that I know her secret
    I'm going to write to Georgina and ask her to make a model
    just for men so that I can get even.  It'll probably have
    a normal size wheel in the back and a new, larger wheel in
    the front :)
    						_Jerry

    _Jerry
    
    Fisher Price already makes it...
    
    ed

>>Even if you do a Fit-Kit, beware that it is oriented toward men's builds, 
>> unless it's been revised. 
    
    Perhaps I am confused, but when I have used FIT KITs in the past the
    results were given in optimum seat height, optimum top tube length etc. 
    
    The problem then is to find a frame that closely matches those
    parameters. So the issue between a man's build vs. a woman's is not
    really a factor. These are just numbers read off charts. 
    
    The reason Terry's became important is that the women's builds were not
    right for men's frames. That is, in order to get the right top tube
    length (in particular) a new approach to frame design was needed. I
    guess I wouldn't worry too much about the FIT KIT being biased towards
    men. However one question that comes to mind is do the charts cover
    the ranges that we were talking about?
    
         JC

RE: .7

Yes, the fit kit should not be gender specific, my mistake.

Regarding... 

>>However one question that comes to mind is do the charts cover
  >>  the ranges that we were talking about?

..that was a problem for my wife - she was right off the charts to the small
 side.  So I called the Fit Kit developer and got his advice directly.  I 
 got his name from the bike shop where we had the Fit-Kitting done, but don't
 recall it know.  He was in Lebanon, NH at the time, I think.

Regards, Tom

    Bill Farrell, who spoke to the DEC Bike CLub about the Fit Kit, once
    upon a time.
    
    ed

    For short women usually 5'2 and under, I definitely suggest the Terry
    style frame. Those bikes are specially design for women. Since most
    women in that height range also have small hands and feet. The brake
    levers are usually close reach, crank length are 165 mm and the toe
    clips are size small. These are just some of the extras which males
    don't usually notice when helping a girlfriend or wife buying a bike. 
    The front 24" wheels does 2 things on the Terry bikes. One is as .1 
    mentioned, relieves stres on the headset and aloud the top tube to be
    shorten. Two is that your foot will not hit the wheel when the pedal 
    is at 9 O'clock position when you are making a turn.
    
    As for the 24" back wheel that .3 mentioned, I think the gearing is one
    consideration but also the availability of 24" rims and tires are
    tough to find unless the bike store carrier Terry bikes.
    
    Try checking out other company that make Terry style frames also. I
    know Bianchi and Centurion use to make one (My financee' has Terry
    Style Bianchi) but I don't see them in there catalogs anymore. I saw
    some leftovers at Frank Spokes and wheel in Framingham last year.
    Since demand is not that high on these bikes, maybe he still has one or
    too. It might save you a few buck to go with a left over.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    dave

>>NOVA::FISHER "It's your Earth too, love it or leave " 5 lines  19-FEB-1991 15:35
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>   _Jerry
>>    
>>    Fisher Price already makes it...
    
    	Ouch - Figures it would be a *Fisher* !

    
    Just this past weekend, I was checking out the Terrys.  Looking
    for a new bike, one dealer really wanted me to get one.
    
    But this thing about having to carry two different sized spare
    tubes and two different sized tires and maybe not being able to
    get these smaller NONSTANDARD! 24" parts is REALLY putting me off.
    
    My question: is it really worth the hassle?  The prices were a bit
    up there too.
    
    My specs:  5'3", 107 lbs., small-boned, small hands.
    
    My only real complaints about my current bike (a standard 19")
    is the damn kink in my neck after any ride of 30 miles or more,
    and I feel stretched out while riding.  Would a different headset
    help this problem?  Or do I need to go to a frame like a Terry or
    a custom frame.  I ride about 2000 miles a year and the top price
    I've set to spend on a new bike this year is $800 (for now).
    

    	You answered your own question. The kink in your neck
    	probably occurs because you are too stretched out on
    	your present bike.
    
    	Everything I've heard about Georgena Terry and her
    	bikes is very good.
    
    	I don't think you'll have that much trouble getting
    	tires and tubes to fit. And, carrying two tubes is
    	not that big a deal.
    
    	If you personally want to ride comfortably, I think
    	a Terry is right for you (and I'm not even selling
    	them).
    
    	Scott

    Did you take a test ride on the Terry ?  That convinced me to get one. 
    I had the some problems riding standard bicycles including neck and
    back pain.   I wasn't able to ride much mostly because of this pain.
    With the Terry, there was no pain.  
                                                                     
    IMO the most important factor when choosing a bike is the fit.  If it 
    doesn't fit, you're not going to enjoy riding it.
    
    Regarding the price: what model are you looking at?  Last time I
    checked, Terry had models in the $600-$700 range.
    
    
    Terry (who didn't buy the bike just because it had my name on it :-)
    

>    My only real complaints about my current bike (a standard 19")
>    is the damn kink in my neck after any ride of 30 miles or more,
>    and I feel stretched out while riding.  Would a different headset
>    help this problem?

    I don't see how the headset could make a difference.

    Perhaps a shorter stem might do it, but that has it's limitations.

    The reason that the Terry has a smaller front wheel is purely
    geometrical.  You can't make the top tube much smaller and still
    fit a large front wheel.

    -Jeff Bell

    By the way, several of the Japanese bike companies make mid-range
    bicycles with 24" front wheels.  A friend of mine bought a Fuji a
    couple of years ago, for about $350.  Quality was similar to $350 bikes
    with two 700C wheels:  double butted chrome-moly, aluminum wheels, etc.
    She also considered a similar Miyata model.
    
    You don't have to carry 2 spares.  You can fold a 27" or 700C tube to
    fit a 24" wheel.  It works fine for the rest of the day, though you'll
    probably want to change it when you get home as the crease probably
    weakens the tube.
    
    An alternative to this style of bike is to get a small frame mountain
    bike and put lighter wheels and dropped handlebars on it.  That way
    you'll have no trouble with spare parts.
    
    Ken
    

>>                         -< alternatives to Terry >-

>>    By the way, several of the Japanese bike companies make mid-range
>>    bicycles with 24" front wheels.  A friend of mine bought a Fuji a
>>    couple of years ago, for about $350.  Quality was similar to $350 bikes
>>    with two 700C wheels:  double butted chrome-moly, aluminum wheels, etc.
>>    She also considered a similar Miyata model.
    
  
This is true. You don't have to get a Terry to find that style/geometry bike. I
know Franks Spoke'n Wheel has a Centurion and a Terry left over from last year
or maybe even older. He has them in his Framingham store (508)872-8590. By all
means try all the bikes you can find in your size before you buy. You might be
able to save some money or you might realize the value of a more expensive
model.    

Tom

    After reading these notes, I had a thought.  (Don't worry, I
    already noted it in my diary!)  I wonder if it would be
    possible to make some sort of special bars that would help
    the problem.

    I'm thinking of something like Scott DH bars shifted back by
    six or eight inches from their normal location.  Normally
    with the DH bars, the rider's finger tips would end up
    perhaps 12" forward of the bar, by shifting the DH bar back a
    bit, the rider would be less 'stretched'.

    I don't think this is something you could do with the
    standard DH bars, but it might be possible to fabricate
    a prototype.

    Just an idea...

    	- Lee

re: -.1

The new Scott Lemond Clip-on aero bars come in 4 sizes, 11-14 inches long.  The 
Profile for Speed Clip-on is adjustable in length, about 3 inches.  The Mavic 
clip-on is also adjustable for length.  Any of these, coupled with a short 
extension stem, can help with this problem (too long top tube).  Trying to pull 
the handlebars back behind the head tube could, hypothetically, cause handling
problems, since the bike wasn't designed that way in the first place.  Such 
problems as difficulty steering generally, or high speed stability, like on a
descent.

Another approach is to use any of the devices that move the seat far forward.
Profile for Speed makes a seatpost ($60) that curves forward about 2 inches 
further than normal seatposts.  There are also a number of adapters ($25-30) 
that fit between the seat rails and seatpost clamp that do the same thing.

In a recent issue of Bicycle Guide, there was an article about Alexi Grewal's 
new bike with a 78 degree seat tube.  This moves his seat far forward.  He's now
more than 5 inches forward of his position from a few years ago.  He did this 
because he had been having back and leg problems (injuries) that almost forced 
him to quit riding.  He now has no such problems.  The seat post options I 
mentioned above accomplish the same thing.  Triathletes have been experimenting
with this far forward position for years, with some success.  The more conserva-
tive cyclist will say that such a position is bad for one's knees, but neither 
the triathletes, nor Grewal, nor I have experienced any knee problems (and I 
have had knee problems in the past.)

I've recently made such an adjustment to my bike, moving my seat about 2 inches
forward.  So far, I find the position very comfortable.  My body seems a bit 
more open, and my chest no longer interferes with knees and thighs (I'm a bit
barrel-chested).  I'm short (5'5" when I stand up VERY straight :^) ) and thus
may have somewhat similar problems with fit that a lot of women have.  

Moving the seat forward could also cause the same handling problems I mentioned
earlier.  To combat this, custom bikes, like Grewal's, have longer top tubes and
'front ends', and shallower head tube angles.  Small normal production bikes, 
52cm and smaller, tend to be built this way anyway, due to problems getting the
front wheel far enough ahead of the cranks to keep one's toes from hitting the
wheel when turning.  This is called toeclip overlap.  All of my bikes have this
problem (I have huge feet for a small person, which doesn't help).  The bikes 
with the smaller front wheel help lessen this problem.

So before buying a Terry or other small front wheel bike, you might try this 
seat position adaptation.  At $25 - $60, it's a lot less expensive than
buying a new bike, and it also allows a wider range a bikes from which to 
choose.

Kevin

    
    Thanks for all the suggestions.  I *am* committted to buying a
    new bike this year.  The bike I have now is a Fuji I got for $300
    back in 1984 on which I've logged close to 10K.  So there!  I
    deserve a new bike!
    
    One reason I am reluctant over the Terry is that I'm big into
    touring.  I took a two-week tour over in Europe last spring.
    Now, say I had had a series of flats on the front tire, would I
    have been able to get new tubes?  Or how about a tire if I ripped
    it?  I generally don't carry a tire on a short tour of two weeks,
    especially in a place like Europe where there is a town with a bike
    shop every 5 miles (please, no lectures, I understand the tradeoffs).
    I am BIG into *very* lightweight touring.  So, THAT is my big concern.
    Of course, I would like this bike to be all things to me :-) so I
    don't have to go through this process again for a few years.
    
    Tell me, can I have my cake and eat it too?
    

    If it  takes  a  smaller  front  wheel  to get a bike that fits, I
    strongly  recommend  it.  It's  remarkable  how  important a small
    improvement  in  comfort  is  on  a long tour. (I'll omit the long
    version of the plug for recumbents based on comfort.)

    I think  that Georgena made a mistake by using two different sized
    wheels.  I asked her why, and she said that it was to make gearing
    easier,  but gearing for a 24" wheel isn't hard. I suspect that it
    was to make it not look like a kid's bike.

    I really  like  to  have identical wheels, so I can only carry one
    spare  tire. (Many of the places I've ridden we've been fifty to a
    hundred miles from the nearest bike shop.)

--David

    
    RE: .20 - It's easy to find places in Europe - many very desirable
              such as the French Alps, where there may not be a town
              for dozens of miles, much less an (open) bike shop.
    
    RE: .19 - Kevin's approach is interesting (moving the saddle forward),
              and useful, but I disagree with the trade-off.  Moving the
    	      saddle fore or aft changes your knee-to-pedal relationship,
    	      femur-to-knee-to-pedal, etc. - even affects lower-back angle.
    	      This can strongly affect comfort, performance, and health.
    
    	      Putting up with some compromises in the steering isn't ideal,
    	      but doesn't affect the power train or critical bodily
              joints.  Remember, you're pedalling much more than you're
    	      steering (except in slalom?).
    
    	      Kevin is testimony to the idea that you *may* gain an
              advantage in comfort and performance by moving the seat
    	      forward.  But move the seat for those reasons; don't
    	      sacrifice health and performance for steering.  Get the
    	      saddle-position right first, then go from there.  (In a 
    	      sense, that's what Kevin has done.)
    
    	-john
    

    Get some measurements.  First, push your seat all the way forward on
    the rails and retighten it.  Then measure from the front of the seat
    to the top of your headset.  Now take that tape measure with you bike
    shopping, and see if you can't find something that's a couple of 
    inches shorter, but with 700c wheels -- it's quite possible!
    Test ride it.  Check the toeclip overlap to see if it's acceptable.
    Repeat until you run buy a bike, or go back to the Terry.
    
    MATT

re .22:

I agree with John that this may not apply to everyone, and may only apply to a 
few, but...

This is written in another note somewhere... possibly in TRIATHLON notes.  
Anyway, I've come up with the idea that some people, (I for one) don't really 
know where their true seat position is.  By true seat position I mean the point
where the seat should be as determined by where the rider's butt is when they
are actually riding.  Static positioning exercises (just sitting on the bike) or
even riding a trainer while adjusting the position is not accurate.  Sure, you 
may accurately set the seat so that your knee is in the desired position 
relative to the pedal axle, but is that where you REALLY sit when you're riding?

Where you REALLY sit is more determined by the distance between the handlebars 
and the pedal axle.  Since there is probably only one position for your upper
body that's really comfortable, you'll naturally assume that position, and your
butt will land on the seat wherever it happens to land, NOT where you planned
during your careful positioning.

This is most evident, and maybe more prevalent, when using aero bars, which I do
100% of the time.  I have found that what feels comfortable when riding a 
trainer is "too long" when I'm on the road, and that I'm always riding the horn
of the saddle, which isn't the most comfortable place to be, for man or woman.
I really noticed this when I put a seat mounted bottle carrier (that was high
enough that I could push on it) and found I could not touch it.  This told me 
that I really wasn't sitting where I thought I was.  So I kept pushing the seat
forward until I could.  By moving the seat forward I wasn't actually changing my
body position, just the seat position.

The really important idea here is that there are many different concepts about
bike fit, and that the conventional wisdom may not apply to any individual.  
Especially people at the ends of the size spectrum.  Applying the conventional
wisdom to small people (anyone under 5'7" is small by bike standards) has either
resulted in uncomfortable riders or different bikes such as the Terry.  And 
while such bikes may work for some riders, they greatly limit the rider's choice
of bike, and also drive up the price due to their uniqueness and low production
rates.  

Try looking at a change in position... maybe it's right for you.  How do you 
know if its right for you?  You'll have to try it.  You can buy (borrow or rent) 
adjustable stems and the seatpost adapters I mentioned in an earlier note.  Try
a lot of different things out on the road.  (Take the necessary wrenches with 
you so you can make adjustments on the road.) Be careful... don't try to see how
fast every new position is... that's a good way to get hurt (just ask me!)  Just
look for a comfortable position, where your upper body is relaxed, and you're
well situated on the seat.  Once you've done that, you've established the
proper distance, for you, between the handlebars and the seat.  Now you can
begin moving both the seat and handlebars, as a unit, fore and aft until you get
a position your feet, hips and knees are comfortable with.  I don't believe the
knee position is all that critical, except possibly for "gear mashers" who put 
unbelievable pressure on the pedals, and thus on the knees.  By all means, if 
you feel safer beginning with the conventional position, do it.  But if you find
you can't get comfortable there no matter how short a stem you try, give my idea
a try.

Kevin

ps.  For an established racer's point of view on this subject, please read the
artical about Alexi Grewal in a recent issue of Bicycle Guide.  

    
    I can identify with Kevin's experience - e.g., where your hands
    are influences where you sit on the saddle, and the saddle-horn
    is not the optimum place.  :-)
    
    -john

    
    RE: last few
    
         It sounds to me like Kevin is simply attacking the
      problem of fit from a slightly different angle than
      is usual. There are three basic points of support/contact
      between you and your bike: hands/bars, butt/saddle, and
      feet/pedals. Since the feet/pedal interface is, for all
      intents and purposes, fixed, the other two points are the
      ones that need to be adjusted. The "common" method is to
      fix the saddle (usually using the knee over the pedal axle
      relationship) and then move the handlebars (shorter/longer
      stem) to make for a comfortable reach. The problem with 
      this is that the angle between the torso and the thighs is
      restricted to some range that may or may not be comfortable
      to the rider. The advantage to Kevin's method is that it
      fixes the handlebars so that the torso/thigh angle *is*
      comfortable and then moves the seat under the "caboose".
    
         (This entire realization came to me as I was 
          reading the previous replies. I even drew
          some little stick figures on a bicycle to
          help me visualize it. Forgive me if this
          is just common sense; it's a revelation for
          me and these don't come along very often.
          As my father is wont to say: "Steven - you
          haven't got the sense that the Good Lord
          gave a goose!" )   8^)
    
    
                                                         Steve

    A few  back  someone  mentioned  looking for a short top tube on a
    bike  with  700C wheels. If you find such a bike, check the bottom
    bracket height. In order to get the front wheel out from under the
    down  tube,  you  typically  have  to either raise the top tube or
    lengthen  it.  If  you  raise  the top tube while keeping the size
    small, you have to raise the bottom bracket.

    A friend  of  mine found this a problem with most of the small (18
    or  19  inch)  frames  we  looked at. The position on the bike was
    fine, but she couldn't straddle the top tube while standing.

--David

RE .26

Exactly!  :^)

	I read this week, I think in "Insight" magazine, that there is a bill
	before congress specifically for Terry bicycles.  Apparently most
	Terrys are assembled oversees and therefore subject to tariffs.
	Seems that a Terry with two different size wheels falls into a
	different category than a bike with two same size wheels and is
	therefore subject to 15% tariff instead of something like 6%.  I
	don't pretend to understand the logic, if any, behind this.

	If you're thinking about buying a Terry, maybe you should write
	your congressman.

	chris