Conference noted::bicycle

	I had similar problems, and reluctantly threw out a few perfectly
serviceable (but antiquated) frames.  In my case there was insufficient
adjustment in the brake stirrups and even with deeper reach brakes (if you can
find them), the look of the bike was completely wrecked.
	Indeed, sprints have always been "700", and if you could adjust before
between HP's and sprints, you will be OK with 700's.  The advantages of 700's
seem to be standardisation, availablity and choice - and this covers tyres, rims
brakes etc.
	
	Another annoying thing is the fashion for the Allen bolt fixing
which doesn't suit old frames and makes it difficult to fit mudguards (old-hat
I know but I prefer to look reasonably presentable when I go into say a
restaurant in winter, rather than a refugee from "The Boys from the Black
Stuff").  I had to search out some traditional bolts and convert my Campag
Chorus set.
	
	The final aggravation is the standardisation to 6/7 speed width hubs -
if the rear ends measure 125 mm or less, you are caught again!!
	
	All good for the industry and as usual pretty bad for the poor old
consumer.

End of "complaint-for-the-day" -- it's fine and sunny again, and we're due out
training Thursday and Friday.  I've done 271 k this year and Suddein-willing, it
should be a good year.........

>(1) Will the brakes (Weinmann sidepulls, but the make should be irrelevant)
>reach? At the moment on 27" rims the brake blocks are adjusted to the top of
>their travel, so I have the full slot length (~3/4") for adjustment to the new
>size rim.

Should be no problem with brake reach.  The difference in
diameter is about 3/8 inch, so the difference in radius is about 3/16.

>(2) What is the significance of the 700 figure? I thought it must be 
>centimetres, but that works out to 27�" and these wheels are smaller, right?

Some people measured the outside of the tire, some measused the rim?
Some people had more balloonish tires than the others?
It's a historical matter.

The best way to compare tire sizes is with the new numbering system.
There are numbers of the form 28-622.  The first number is the width,
the second is the beadd seat diameter.

-Jeff Bell

    Chris, 700c's are the same dia (as near as dammit) to standards, they
    are just narrower. IMHO they give a better ride, very close to tubs.

    
    I'm in a similar position... want to put 700 rims in place of 27" rims. 
    My question is in terms of brakes , though. I currently have some
    diacomps, and they appear to have the necessary reach for 700 rims. 
    But what about the future? If these brakes (for some reason) were to
    need replacement or if I should decide to get a better quality brake,
    what "reach" of brakes would I need? What exactly is "long reach" vs.
    "short reach"? Intuitively, it sounds like the distance from the 
    center bolt of the break to center of the the pad during braking... 
    or some such measurement. If so, I've noticed that all of the higher 
    quality brakes no longer come in long reach (50-59mm)
    anymore.... will long reach brakes be phased out as newer bikes all 
    come with 700 rims?
    
    doug
    

    Doug,
    
    Since writing the original note I have mostly answered the question.
    Here are some of the things I have established:-
    (1) 700C wheels are only marginally smaller than 27". If it's just the
    wheels you change, the existing brakes would reach the new rims.
    (2) Long vs short reach brakes are needed to suit the frame. Modern
    frames are built to fit 700C wheels and have slightly less clearance,
    i.e shorter forks/stays. They can use a short reach brake. 
    If you have an old frame (built for 27" wheels) you would not be able
    to use the modern short reach brake but would need a long reach. As
    only old diehards like you and me stick with their old frames (so the
    manufacturers think), they don't make many long reach brakes now.
    
    This, of course, is called progress.
    
    Chris

>>    (1) 700C wheels are only marginally smaller than 27". If it's just the
>>    wheels you change, the existing brakes would reach the new rims.
This is only true if the existing brakes are not at the bottom of their slot, 
but I guess you are assuming that.....

>>    manufacturers think), they don't make many long reach brakes now.
But deep (or non compact) brakes are available still - you just have to be 
persistant.  I had been told by a well-known distributor in the UK that only 
A/K brakes were available in Shimano 105 - this is a lie, he really meant �I 
don't bother to stock them, take what I offer, give me the money and clear 
off.�  I suspect the same applies for "deep" reach.

On another subject (akin to the great praise of Campagnolo which is going on 
elsewhere in this file), I wanted another C/R for a Campag Chorus and was 
quoted nearly 400 ff (�40 or $75) in the shop at Antibes.  No doubt the 
genuine article would last me to the end of my cycling days but I think this 
is a very steep price to pay - but the good news is that TA make one to fit at 
half the price and you need to get very close to see the difference.  That 
means that TA make rings to fit Shimano 105, 600, Chorus and others of the 
same PCD - I don't remember any UK shop offering me that information.

�    This, of course, is called progress.
And it helps the money circulate........    

    
    BTW, the Campy chainring price that Robin quoted is about
    the same here (shops or mail order), and my local shop 
    suggested -- guess what -- a TA chainring instead.  This
    is a French product, fits fine, is a bit shinier than 
    Campagnolo, and for some reason, the tooth-count is stamped
    on the inside face, not the outside.  
    
    -john

Another that could run and run....

>>    BTW, the Campy chainring price that Robin quoted is about
    the same here (shops or mail order), and my local shop 
    suggested -- guess what -- a TA chainring instead.  This
    is a French product, fits fine, is a bit shinier than 
    Campagnolo, and for some reason, the tooth-count is stamped
    on the inside face, not the outside.  
    
As it happens, mine has no "tooth-count" stamped on it at all - I suspect this
is a special French poseur-ruse - I intend to stamp "56" on it so that they will
all think I am really macho, no-one will bother to dirty their designer track
mitts to count properly.......

    of course, real bikers could compare the curvature of the chain ring to
    that of the front derailleur and immediately discern the ruse.
    
    :-P
    
    ed

I hate to admit it but I just went to Fusberti's and bought a 30 inner.....

   I just thought I'd mention that I use 700C wheels on a Holdsworth which
   was origionally a 27 inch wheel bike.  I have long reach Campy brakes
   and the setup works - I like it since I also own a normal road bike
   and can interchange the wheels.

   So it can be done.

   - Jim

    
    Okay.... I've checked out a few bikes and I can see that most 
    now use the short reach brakes (Hardly any clearance, but I suppose
    that it takes a lot of mush out of the feel of the brake?). Clearly,
    my Cannondale uses long reach brakes. My next question is : what's 
    the difference between hex bolt/standard bolt? Any idea how a 
    1991 Shimano 105 long reach brake would compare to the stock 
    1987 Diacomp brakes that came on the bike? The 105 is the 
    highest quality long reach I can find (really!). The aero levers look
    cool, too!
    
    doug
     

I think you are asking the difference between std and AK fixing.

Std means a through bolt you can put a washer and nut on - also means you can
fit fenders to keep off motorists or mudguards to keep off mud.

AK means the bolt doesn't protrude beyond the fork or rear bridge and the AK nut
goes inside.  This means you really need a coutersunk hole on the back of the
fork crown or the front of the rear bridge and "old frames" are unlikely to
have this feature.  No problem with countersinking the forks, but it's more
difficult with the rear and fitting guards is less easy.

I believe you should be able to get "deep" 105's with a standard bolt but you
may need patience and persistance.

>I believe you should be able to get "deep" 105's with a standard bolt but you
>may need patience and persistance.
    
    Yes you can, it's precisely what I put on the Kettlar this summer.  I
    was lucky my local bike shop had it in stock (although I got the last
    in the shop)
    
    rod

    
    Re.9
    
    	40 quid for a chainring! I got a 105 Chainset for only a tenner
    more.
    
    Graham.
    

    
    Yes, it's tempting to think of getting a whole new crankset.
    I thought of that.  If so, you need to start out with a BB
    that will take a low-enough-priced crankset to make that
    worth your while, while keeping the BB high enough quality.
    
    The 105's BB and crankset probably have the quality ... but
    when bearings and races are involved, I still give the nod
    to Campy.  So that implies a strategy of buying something
    like Chorus or Athena, I guess.
    
    BTW, even if 105's have the quality and styling to suit you,
    their Q-factor is different (from most road-bike cranksets').
    Some riders may like the crankarms being more spread out, 
    but those who don't should take heed.
    
    -john

    
    
    Now that I've got a fairly good idea about brake sizing/fitting, I have
    only a few more questions.....  Is the only difference between the 
    front and back brake in most brakesets the length of the mounting bolt?
    They appear to be identical except for that aspect. 
    Another question I have concerns the front fork. I suppose that if they
    are phasing (have phased) out long reach standard brakes, that front
    forks made for 27" wheels must be right behind them. How well do newer
    forks that are made for 700c wheels (short reach hex bolt brakes) work
    with older bikes? What affect does that 700c fork/wheel combo have on frame
    geometry? I would guesstimate that it would lower the front end by a 
    full 1/4" or more.... how would this affect bike handling?
    Your responses have been very helpful!
    
    doug
    

> What affect does that 700c fork/wheel combo have on frame
>    geometry? I would guesstimate that it would lower the front end by a 
>    full 1/4" or more.... how would this affect bike handling?

If you drop the front and not the back, the effect will be
about the same as getting a bike with a head tube that is
0.358 degrees steeper.

Q: Will this effect the handling?

A: Let me show you this stack of matresses with a pea at the bottom.


-Jeff

    
    Thanks, guys. I was persistent and I was able to locate a long(normal)
    reach brake and a bolt kit. The difference between the 105sc brake and
    the Diacompe is like day and night ( the Diacompe is VERY mushy in
    comparison).... the 105 is very nice!
    
    doug