Conference noted::bicycle

    IMHO Campy looks nicer and lasts longer and has a better head set.
    
    IMHO Dura Ace shifts better.
    
    IMHO I'd go with Campy, except for the drive train.  I'd get the Dura
    Ace shifters, cassette freewheel, and f/r derailleurs.
                     
    Regards,
    Phil

     I personally suggest you not buy a frameset mail order. Particularly
    when considering the high end stuff you're looking at. I'd try to find
    a local that deals with those and try them out. 
    
     If you're gonna spend high end money, be high end sure....
    
     I won't touch the Italian vs Japanese component question. That one's
    as old as the struggle of good vs evil! I will tell you that I run
    C RECORD stuff and love it. It is bullet proof, high quality and very
    attractive (no contest in this dept. with any gruppo). But it is
    pricey stuff. I've got the DELTAS and love 'em. I have  plenty of
    riding  friends that run Dura Ace, and they love their stuff. One
    thing, if you  have your heart set on indexed shifting, forget CAMPY
    for the derailleur/shifter set-up - go Shimano...
    
     CAMPY FOREVER!!!!! CAMPY LIVES!!!!! CAMPY'S #1!!!!! CAMPY IS MONDO!!!!
    
        See Ya (I'm gonna go MERLIN next season with all CAMPY!!!!!!!!!)
    
         Chip

    RE: .0
    
    It's curious that you're thinking of going all Dura-Ace with the
    exception of the Delta brakes.  That's exactly the combination
    I got on my last bike!  I'm very pleased with it.  The only 
    thing I might have changed was to get the C-Record crank instead
    of the Dura Ace -- not because it functions any better, but because
    it looks so nice.  But that's trivial; if you're going to spend
    this kind of money on components, they'll work, last a long time,
    and look good whether they're Campy's, Shimano's, or someone else's.
    
    Don't overlook Mavic -- not only is their stuff even more bulletproof,
    but it's rebuildable.  If you damage a Dura Ace derailleur, it's
    gone; if you do the same with Mavic, you just replace some parts.
    Then there's Suntour Superbe Pro, which is of pro quality and usually
    cheaper than Campy/Shimano/Mavic.
    
    If you're going to buy the frame mailorder, you should at least be
    certain the sizing is right.  You'll probably like whatever fine racing
    frame you buy, even if you don't test ride it first;  nonetheless,
    you're cheating yourself out of the opportunity to choose exactly the
    right combination of stiffness, handling, and level of finish that
    you'd find by test riding a variety of bikes.  Racing bikes are 
    highly personal things -- a great number of people find that they
    want to change stem length, type of seat, handlebars, and so on
    in the weeks after the get their machine.  A local dealer can 
    really help with that, often doing it for free.  The cost difference
    between local and mailorder really does buy you something here,
    and at this time of the season, you can often find great deals
    right in the shops.

    Thanks folks,
    	I really can't believe that in the space of ten weeks I've gone
    from a 20 year old peugeot, through 4 bicycles, and am now considering
    something like this, but what can I say - I take my TOYS seriously ;^)
    
    	I do like indexed shifting, at least at this point, and will
    probably lean toward favofing Dura Ace in the shifting department. 
    And, like I said, delta brakes are a must.  The Mavic crank set is
    pretty trick looking, but more than likely I'll go with Campy for the
    rest of the gruppo, if for no other reason than just to find out what
    all the hubbub is about.

Sounds like I'm in a similar position of shopping for a new, pro quality, bike.

My take on it is this, if at all possible try and deal with a top quality local
shop.  It will cost a bit more, but this definitely a BIG ticket item, the piece
of mind that you can get from a local shop may be worth the difference.  I
can't put a price on it, it really depends on several factors such as:

    How close to a pro shop are you?  After all a shop that is an hour or more
        away is not a shop that you will go back to unless you have big
        problems.
    Just how good is the shop?  Anyone can SAY they are a pro bike shop.  Do
        they have a good reputation?
    However, even with a local shop you still may not be able to ride the bike.
        A lot of shops can order you an expensive frame but few shops can
        afford to have dozens of Eddy Merckx's, in all sizes and colors just
        sitting around.  But a good shop should be able to talk about frame
        materials, angles, overall workmanship and have experience with that
        frame maker.

I started looking at all frames including "prestigious" European brands like
Merckx, Bottechicca, Rossin, Pinnerello...etc.  However I soon eliminated most
of them and ended up looking at limited productions American frames.  The
prices tended to be lower or no higher then the European frames and the
quality, design and appearance seem better.  Some of the ones that I found
interesting and are large enough to be available throughout the US were:

    Ritchey - Tange Prestige tubing, fillet brazing, nice road angles.  One of
        the most beautiful frames I've ever seen, a true work of art.  Priced at
        about $1200.

    Richard Sachs - Very traditional, very conservative, Columbus tubing, very
        expensive at about $1300!

    Land Shark - If you've ever seen one you'll never forget it!  Incredible
        paint jobs.  These are custom made in So. Cal. using Tange Prestige
        and go for about $800.  Not bad for a custom frame.  Turn around time
        can be quite long, 2 to 3 months.

    Serotta - Everyone has heard of him.  Colorado frame set for about $1200,
        SLX model for about $1000.

    Fuso - Very traditional, made in So. Cal. but has an Italian look.  Ask
        Gary TPWEST::SHROYER for a testimonial.  $800 to $1000.

    Medici - The name says Italian, which is the idea.  Tange Prestige or
        Columbus if you like.  $800 - $850.  They claim 4 weeks delivery.

    Della Santa - This guy is right off the boat from Italy.  Out of Reno, NV.
        Made (or still makes) LeMonds steel frames.  Uses the LeMond angles.
        The production LeMonds are made in Italy and cost $1200, his are hand
        made and cost about $200 less.  Check the latest Winning and you'll see
        Inga Thompson riding one.

    Davidson - Out of Seattle.  Tange Prestige, pretty standard road angles.
        About $800 but is happy to do any special paint which can push the
        price up.

    Tesch - THE NEW BATBIKE - Another So. Cal. builder.  His S-22 model, which
        I'm getting is made of oversized, thin walled True-Temper steel, flared
        seat tube, thick unicrown fork, no lugs, fillet brazed.  Very cool
        looking.  I designed the paint job modeled after last years Kelme team
        Merckx, green to white.  They promise 4 week delivery, we'll see.


The components are up to you but if it were me, or a friend or anyone I didn't
truely hate, I'd say Dura-Ace!  INCLUDING THE BRAKES!!!  I know beauty is in
the eye of the beholder but those Delta brakes are butt ugly, almost as ugly as
that crank set.  Give me the strong, clean, manly lines of the Dura-Ace group.

Now, now, don't get mad, I'm only (partially) joking.  But I am a Dura-Ace fan.

Oh by the way, no triple on the new Batbike.

>Oh by the way, no triple on the new Batbike.
    
    Wow! Does that mean you're staying in DEC, after all?
    
    MATT

     Ohhhhhhhh boy, her we go.... Someone will have to explain to
    me why a crude club-like looking crank like Dura Ace is more
    attractive than a C RECORD crank. Manly? More like Neanderthal...
    
     I'm not quite sure that it's a piece of "beauty" that's in your
    eye, it might be mud or crud or something like that, check it out.
    
      :-)   :-)  :-)
    
     Delta brakes butt ugly???? How can you compare the ice tong look alike
    runner up (Dura Ace brakes) to Delta's????
    
     Don't listen to 'em... your headin' in the right direction.
    
     Let's start a poll -- Ford or Chevy trucks...
    
        Chip :-)

>     Let's start a poll -- Ford or Chevy trucks...
    
How's this - the DELTA brakes are SO ugly, that if they were ANY UGLIER, 
they'd have to sell tickets to see 'em?

               ken-wouldn't-put-DELTAs-on-for-a-trip-to-the-dump

    If there is a good local bike shop, I would recommend dealing with
    them.  There  are  a  lot of details on a bike and it's nice to be
    able to talk to the shop and look at stuff so it's right the first
    time.  This  is from one experience of buying a bike mail order --
    It's  a  good  bike,  and  they were pretty good to deal with, but
    there were still a few details that had parts getting mailed cross
    country before the bike was really set.

    Another frame  builder  to  look  at is Peter Mooney, who works at
    Belmont  Wheelworks.  There  are  quite a few of his frames around
    here and they look very good.

    If you  want  indexed  shifters and Campy, wasn't there a rumor in
    here  a  month or so ago that Campy has finally figured out how to
    make  indexed  shifters? Coming real soon? (I don't have the bucks
    for  Campy,  and  I'm  quite  happy with my Suntours, my luck with
    Shimano hasn't been quite as good.)

--David

    Wellllll, a riding partner of mine purchased a Tommasini from Colorado
    Cyclist and it didn't work out too well.  He got a bent frame and had
    a heck of a time returning it.  Of course, he decided after he had the
    bent frame that it wasn't such a great idea to buy a bike mail order
    and asked CC for a total refund.  In any case, he finally got his
    credit in full and went out and purchased a Marinoni from a local
    dealer.  He was then very happy and satisfied with the bike.  My parts
    purchases from CC have been both good and not so good.  That's mail
    order though so don't be surprised if you find yourself on the phone
    more than the bike.
    
    Concerning your choice of components.  Both are top-of-line and you
    will be very happy with either group.  I personally run the Dura-Ace
    group on both of my road bikes and it's what I would expect.  It's
    great stuff and it works all the time.
    
    Now, let's review your choice of frame.  Steel is good but so is
    aluminum.  They both have their good points and not so good points.
    So in consideration of that why not look at, research, and consider
    a Klein.  It's a great frame at a great price.  For $525 you can get
    a racing or sport frame set with a pressed in bottom bracket that
    will performed as good or better than most custom steel frames.  I now 
    have two Kleins after having ridden steel bikes for the past twenty 
    years.  From my perspective, it's the best frame for the $.  Before
    you buy steel you should at least ride one.  It will prove to be an
    interesting comparison.
    
    Hope this feedback helps.
    
    John 

    
    
    FWIW:  I bought a Tommasini Prestige from CC 3 years ago with Campy 
    Super record, and love it!  I have had no problems with the frame or
    the components.  If I had it to do over, I would have bought Dura-ace.
    
    Stew

    re -1,
    		And if you stop to consider aluminum then stop
    by your local Cannondale dealer (probably Butchka's or Naults)
    who'll make you a deal on a complete Durace race or road
    set up that will probably cost less than the components on the
    mixed bag of DA and Campy Record that your considering.
    
    		_Jerry_who_also_considered_a_Campy_Tomassini_from_CC
    

    Well, lot's to think about!  Actually, the only thing I'm REALLY set on
    is those delta brakes - I think they look real slick, but then, I also
    like Nash Metros and English Bulldogs,  so . . .
    

     I wouldn't go back to side pull brakes if somebody put a gun
    to my head... If I could be 20 yrs. old again... If someone
    wanted to swap me for LeMond's legs and Delgado's cardio-
    vascular system... rather give up my first born... rather
    denounce democracy... rather see Silber get elected :-(
    
    :-)
    
         Chip

    re [.-1]
    	But how do you REALLY feel about them?

    I sure like my DuraAce brake set.  They have all the stopping power
    that *I* can use.  I weigh in @195 now (was 228), and they sure can
    stop me from 50 mph with NO PROBLEM.
    
    The "feel" is smooth, and progerssive.  I have not run into the problem
    of locking the front wheel by mistake, and have had two panic stops in
    the last few weeks.
    
    Keep it simple...... The DuraAce are *easy* to clean and adjust.
    
    Do you need power brakes on a MG?
    
    SO MUCH money to get you what?  (I do like the Campy crank!!)
    
    John

    re [.-1] - I once put a 302 in an MG ;^)

    Don't forget that Dura Ace and the 600 are changing to the double
    pulley system. they should be out around December time frame. They look
    just like the 105Sc and RX100 brakes.
    
    When you are spending $1K on the components itself. No matter what you
    decide, I think you'll be happy. So just flip a coin and just do it.
    
    Good Luck,
                                                       
    Dave_Who supports his local bike shop by working at one.
    
    
    

    I second Phil Johnson's opinion, I put Campy Chorus on except for the 
    derailleurs, freewheel, shifters - Dura-Ace - and the results were
    primo on my Basso.  On the brakeset, you want to try out those slick
    looking Delta's before you sink the money, especially if you had
    Shimano brakes on your old set-up.  I've tested both lines.  Shimano
    brakes **stop** you, I mean you can stop the wheel before the bike if
    you panic.  There is also such a thing as too much stopping without
    skidding, as say in a tight pack, when a smoother brake prevents
    pile-ups.  On the other hand, Campy advertisements state that the
    brakes are for "controlling speed", which is a nice way of saying that
    until you get used to them, you may ruin your chamois waiting for the
    speed to become controlled.  How much do you weight?  Big guys really
    like the Delta's for decents and high speed turns, because of the
    cam-like gradual increase in leverage.  For that kind of money, you
    should test them both under extreme conditions and see what you like. 
    That also speaks for purchasing at a bike shop, because they will let
    you test-drive all this stuff.

     What happened to status... Looking fast... Looking good...?????
    
     My goals have always been to LOOK fast and spend money :-)  :-)
    
       Campy Man

    re [-1] my kinda guy - with the deltas people can tell how much you
    spent from further away!
    
    re[-2] 'bout 220# - heavy enough? I was thinking of dual power disks
    and a danforth anchor, just in case 8^)

I've had extensive experience with Campy (all good) and Dura-Ace (started off 
good, but went down hill fast).

I've been racing since '73.  Needless to say, you HAD to have Campy back then
(might have been an ABLA rule).

In '80, the club I was riding for switched sponsorship to Shimano (had been a 
petro company).  I was building up a new Rossin, so I went with full D-A.  It 
worked as well as the Record/S-R stuff I was used to for the first year, but
after that, the performance started to deteriorate.  I still have the bike, but
have gradually replaced everything on it as each component became more trouble
to deal with than it would cost to replace.  Meanwhile, I still have the Campy
Nuovo Record rear derailleur I was racing with in '73; it works fine.

Enough of history.  This spring I built a new racing bike (Rossin again).  I 
went with the C-Record groupo and have NO complaints at all.  I love the Delta
brakes (real buggers to thread the cables, but after that, wonderful to use).
Front and Rear derailleurs are a dream to use.

One complaint people have always had about Campy drivetrains is that you have to
overshift the rear d.  I've found a solution to that with the new bike.  I'm 
running the Regina SL chain (the one with the hollow pins) and the Maillard-Sachs
freewheel (the one with the funny looking teeth).  Now it shifts EARLY; so much
so that if I hear chain noise after changing gears, 99% of the time it's because
I haven't shifted far enough yet.  After all these years I'm having to retrain 
myself to not do the typical overshift and then move the lever slightly back 
that all Campy users are so adept at doing.  BTW - I'm running the same chain/
freewheel combo on my S-Record equipped Merckx, and have noticed the same 
improvement in shifting. 

Jim

    Remember John Lee Ellis's ultimate brake -- a drag chute -- to
    compensate for his aero seatpost.  The chute also comes in handy
    when you miss the switchback turns on those long alpine descents....
    
    RE: .22
    
    Dura Ace has changed A LOT since 1980.
    
    

    
    RE: .23 - I'd never thought of using the chute for switchbacks,
              but, you know, it's a great idea!  I'm sure Matt speaks
              from experience, with his fast bikes and fast biking 
              among the Alps.  :-)
    
    -john

RE: .23

So has Campy.

:^)

Maybe it's an East-West thing, maybe it's a DEC thing, maybe it's because Campy
folks are just more vocal, but there is most definitely a very strong Campy
following in this conference.  Much more so then in the population as a whole.

As I said in an earlier note I'm in a similar position of buying a pro quality
bike.  I'm dealing with one of the best shops in this area, maybe even the
country, the Wheelsmith (spoke makers, PDM sponsor, wheel builders for U.S.
amateur team, Coors Light, Ritchey womans team, etc.).  When I was in there
last I asked them what was the percentage of each kind of component group when
they build pro quality bike.  I'm only talking about bikes built up to customer
specs and costing AT LEAST $1500, usually more.  I expected that once you got
into the stratosphere of bikes that the ratio would still favor Shimano by 2:1,
maybe 3:1.  Their answer, at least 20:1 Shimano!  They said that about as many
people want SunTour as Campy and you'll find the occasional person who insists
on full Mavic.

I ride 12 months a year, and I ride hard.  I've ridden Dura-Ace for about 3 1/2
years and I've now got a broken aluminum Guerciotti frame but most of the
original Dura-Ace parts are moving over to the new bike.  In the 3 1/2 years
I've replaced the BB and broken 3 rear axles (although the replacements may not
have all be D-A).  BTW, I've also broken about 10 spokes, 3 Mavic and 1 Matrix
rims, a set of Cinelli handlebars, D-A brake levers, Mavic pedals, 2 helmets,
several jerseys and shorts, a pair of shoes.  Good God, this is depressing me
just to write this.  I'm definitely going to slow down a bit!

My final note.

Check out the American made frames!  Check out the Tesch.

Joe,

DON'T buy a frame set through mail order. Components, YES! The frame you want
to see before you buy. Also you'll want to ride a built up model before you pay
all that money only to find the thing rides like a truck and the paint stinks.
Components on the other hand are great to get mail order. What you see is what
you'll get. I'd suggest that you go shopping at all the local bike shops that 
have "works of art" hanging from the walls and see, touch and ride your dream 
bike before getting into a nightmare with mail order. They may not have a built
up model in your exact size or have one built up with the components you want
but a ride on a demo bike will tell you more than facts and figures on paper.

BTW my opinion on a "must see" bike frame is the SEROTTA Colorado II. It has
the nicest paint and workmanship I've ever seen on a steel frame. Klein, I
agree makes the best AL frame as far as paint and workmanship is concerned.

Components... I have a mish-mash of Campy Chorus crank+BB, Stronglite roller
bearing headset, Look pedals, Shimano 600 UTL shifters + brakeset, Dura-Ace 
hubs on my aero tubies, and 600ex hubs on a set of clincher money savers and 
of course my C-Record "aero" seat post! 

Tom 

    For price of no object frames I would consider the following:
    
    o Merlin - Titanium
    
    o Kestrel - Carbon
    
    o Bruce Gordon - Steel and Titanium
    
    Once you put on a Dura Ace drive chain, roller bearing headset, and
    Time or Look pedals, not much Campy left to put on the bike
    
    steve

    
    After having read or skimmed the previous replies, I'll keep my 2�
    brief:
    
    - The most important things that determine the ride are 1. the frame
    and 2. the wheels. Make sure you know what you're getting and why - you
    decide how to do that. Most frame models have different angles in the
    different sizes. Shallower angles may not offset the harshness of a
    short wheelbase but they can give you more stability on descents. Fat
    tubulars with 4 cross 36� rims are real comfortable. High pressure
    narrow clinchers on heat treated 2 or 3 cross  32� rims (the fashion
    these days) are bone breakers on rough roads.
    
    - Get sized by someone who races. 
    
    - Get whatever components make you happy - they all work well in the
    high price range.
    
    - Stay up late at night thinking about this, planning it, and loosing
    sleep: it'll be worth it.
    
    Oh, yea, ENJOY RIDING IT.
    
    Roger

    Anyone know whether dura-ace freewheels (not cassette) can be used with
    other hubs?

    
    I originally had a Dura-Ace 6-spd freewheel on my Record hub.
    Worked fine.  Did I understand your question correctly?
    (Oh, the shifting was fine, too.  Sedisport chain, Record shifter.)
    
    -john

    I use Dura-ace freewheels on Campy, Shim. 600, and Dura-Ace hubs
    without problem.
    
    ed

    thanks - yes that was the question.  From everything I've heard here
    and elsewhere, I think I want to go with DUra-ace in the shifting
    department, but I'm leaning toward Mavic or Campy for the crankset, bb,
    headset and hubs.

    RE: .-1
    
    That was just my breakdown in the setup I plan for my new frame:
    Chorus BB, cranks and headset; Record hubs; something else for
    a stem, brakeset, derailleur.  (The frame is a De Rosa.)
    
    The Shimano 600 (Ultegra) brakeset was just recommended to me,
    and indeed it has great "feel" (not the Delta feel, for sure, but...:-)),
    with the counterweighted springs, etc.  Very smooth, responsive.
    And the brake-hoods don't show dirt!  :-)
    
    Since my Cinelli stem-and-bar are about to drive me crazy (from
    creaking), the next bike will either have TTT or Modolo anatomic
    (pricey, but Guaranteed Not To Creak!).  The rear derailleur is
    Shimano 600 for now, because that's the one the bike shop in
    Japan stuck on my bike for a repair job (and it works just fine).
    
    Oh, sorry, I left out the seatpost - also Chorus, because (as you
    can predict I'm about to say) it is aero.  :-)
    
    -john

    Do yourself a favor and look at the Stronglite headset before you get
    a campy headset!
    
    Being a roller bearing vs. a ball bearing the weight is spread out over
    a larger area on the races.  The Stronglite will last!
    
    I *want* a Serotta Colorado II frame it is the "balls" it has Nivechrome
    (sp) tubing stronger and lighter than SLX!
    
    I looked at one, and the fit/finish is like a fine piece of jewelry :-)
    Quite the frame.
    
    I have a Paramount 58cm frame that I am thinking about selling.  It has
    only 1200 miles on it.  It is a custom built SLX frame.  I like this 
    frame, it handles wonderfuly etc.  it is just a little to small
    
    If you are interested send me a note @ WFOOFF::SISE
    
    John_who_wants_a_serotta_colorado_but_must_sell_his_Paramount_first!
    
    Note: The Paramount has a Stronglite headset :-)
    

    I had an opportunity to ride a Cannondale ST600 recently and absolutely
    loved the ride.  Although the finish didn't impress me, I've seen
    ST1000s up close and their finish *DID* impress me.  As much as I
    sometimes like the performance of a racing bike, realistically, the touring
    geometry is probably a lot better suited to the kind of riding I'll be
    doing.  The ST1000 comes with Suntour XC-COMP hardware, which I'm not
    all that wild about, but it'll go just fine on my mountain bike.  For
    the Cannondale, I've pretty much decided on Mavic crank and BB (bacause
    it can be equipped with triple chainrings), Mavic hubs (chosen over
    Campy for their sealed bearings) with open 4-CD rims (36 spoke), Dura-ace 
    rear derailleur & freewheel and Deore XT-II front derailleur.  For
    brakes, either Grafton Speed Controllers or WTB rollers, and I'll
    certainly investigate the headset mentioned in [-1].  I just hope I can
    get it all together in time to ride it this year!

    There should not be any difference between the finish of the
    cannondales. they all should be painted with DuPont Emaron (Sp). Did
    you mean you did not like the Red and white color on the SR600. 
    
    Cannondale also makes 2 geometry in their race bike line. A road frame
    geometry and a criterim frame geometry. The SR600 that you rode is 
    probably a crit frame unless you rode the limited edition SR600 (bright
    yellow) whih is a road frame geometry.
    
    
    Dave_SR600 w/ 600 stuff 

    The cannondale I rode was an ST600, not an SR - it had cantalever
    brakes, and a a plain red paintjob.  (I've seen the SR600 at Licoln
    Guide service & it is a pretty sharp looking bike).  The ST1000 I saw
    had a dark green metalic paintjob that was really much more elegant looking.
    It also had matching racks, which I kinda like, and fenders, which I
    wouldn't mind having in off-weather.

    Why do they paint Cannondales?

    Is "brushed finish" available as an option?

    -Jeff

    
    Just look at my screen door!  or for that matter the AL on my
    motorcycle :-)
    
    Salt + Al = yuck
    
    John_who_does_not_like_the_semichrome_polishing__Al_needs!

>>    Why do they paint Cannondales?
>>    Is "brushed finish" available as an option?
    Jeff,
    		For the same reason that they don't 
    chrome Cannondales.  They don't want you to *blind* 
    the motorists on the bistro as you blast by them, 
    assuming the engine is capable of blasting, of course :)
    
    					_Jerry

    re .41
    
    Ah, but I know someone who has a chromed bike.  I forget the make, but
    the finish is original and warrenteed.

    
    By the way, I saw a "smoked" (chemically burnt) chromed MtB
    in the shop on Saturday.  It looked beautiful, and best of
    all, it looked like it wouldn't show dirt!  (Except in NC, SC,
    Georgia, Ala., and other ferrous states, of course.  FYI, 
    red dirt is part of the new Ga. license plate's decoration,
    bordering the bottom, hard to tell from the real thing.)
    
    -john

    On the Cannondale ST series...
    
    As far as I know (and according to my conversations with Cannondale)
    all three ST models have IDENTICAL frames.  Each comes in ONE color -
    the ST400 is light blue, the ST600 is red, and the ST1000 is dark
    green.  I believe each is finished in Dupont Imron (the ST600 and
    ST1000 for sure).  
    
    NOW! As far as the finish - my month-old ST600 has what I regard as an
    EXCELLENT finish (except for the chip I put in it and had to touch up
    from dropping the frame pump on it).  
    
    If an ST1000 is what turns you on, go for it.  But, you can buy a HELL
    of a lot of racks ($~20 ea.), panniers (my Cannondale fronts were $25
    and my Madden Gran Tour rears were $25), and fenders (~$20) in the
    NASHBAR catalog for the price difference between the ST600 and ST1000. 
    My ST600 was $590 and the cheapest I could find an ST1000 was over
    $1000!!!!  There is some upgrade in the components between the ST600
    and ST1000 - like the ST600 has the Deore LX derailleurs and the ST1000
    has the Deore DX.  BUT, you can even buy those fancy Campy brakes and
    whatever other little goodies you have your heart set on, put them on
    your ST600 and not have it cost any more than the vanilla ST1000.
    
    Besides, the dark green is BORING - the BRIGHT RED is a WHOLE LOT
    FASTER!

>================================================================================
>Note 1742.42         Decisions, decisions, decisions . . .              42 of 43
>STARCH::WHALEN "Vague clouds of electrons tunneling through computer circuits an" 4 lines  24-SEP-1990 17:56
>    Ah, but I know someone who has a chromed bike.  I forget the make, but
>    the finish is original and warrenteed.
>
Yeah, but don't forget that chroming the entire frame has a weight penalty of
something like 1.5-2 pounds. This makes the use of an aero seatpost even more
essential.

Tim

P.S. It would also make the use of Oakleys or such essential for survival. Just
imagine glancing down to see how your tires are holding up on a sunny day!

     I agree, I own a red C-DALE 3.0 road racing frame now. Red is
    defintely faster than...  green ??  ;^(
    
     Paramount used to make a chromed frame. In fact, Belmont Wheelworks
    had one in the racks for quite some time. Chrome is heavy.
    
     Remember, you're getting touring geometry with the ST series
    (T=tour'g) (R=rac'g).
    
     I know a guy who stripped his C-Dale last year, then bought an Epic
    Allez... 
    
      Chip

    I LIKE the green . . . Yea, I know it's not a rational thing (I never
    said I WAS rational, or even coherent for that matter), but the ST1000
    really appealed to me . .  . understated elegance and all that.   The
    way I look at it, if I spend the bucks & get exactly what I want, it'll
    be exactly what I want long after the money is forgotten.  If I cut a
    few corners, it'll always be an "almost right" long after I've pi$$ed
    away the  money I saved.  

    re: .44
    
    There is one MAJOR difference in the ST1000 frame and the lower frames,
    it has a higher quality front fork.  The same goes for other Cannondale
    frames, the lower end uses a lower quality fork.  Check the specs
    carefully.
    
    steve

    Chrome is only available on steel frames, right?

      I just bought my "last frame" (C-Dale) in Jan "89... I will be
    buying "my last frame" (Merlin) again around Jan. '91...
    
     Never is an awful long time :-)...
    
       Chip

    I had a guy come in the other day to pick up his new Cannondale
    (unpainted). We open the box and checked it out just to make sure it's
    was what he wanted. The frame was already primed and ready for paint. 
    This guy brought the frame to get a custom neon paint job done on it.
    The paint job will probably cost him more than the frame. 
    
    I think Cannondale sent it that way because once the Al starts to
    oxidize. You will have trouble getting paint on it. Therefore 
    they sent it already primed. As for chroming the C-dale's. They 
    don't recommend it beacause it will cause the frame to miss align 
    due to the change in temperature after the frame is dip. I think 
    the Aluminum tubes will all cool down at a different rate since 
    there are different size tubes and therefore damage the frame. 
    
    As for the aluminum forks, They are offef on the SR500 and up, ST600 (I
    think) and 1000, and the OM1000 & OMC (Special edition OM600). 
                                
    If you are set on the green color, then you have a few choice here. 
    
    1. Buy the ST1000.
    2. Buy the ST600 and buy a extra frame (~600) and sell the red frame.
    3. Ask the bike manager to switch it for you if they have it in stock.
       There might be a addition $50-100 charge. 
    4. Ask the manager to call Cannondale and see if they can put a package
       together for you.
    
    There is probably a few more option but just talk to the guys at the
    shop you are dealing with. If you plan to spen a $1000, the shop should
    try to help you out as much as possible. If they don't, then I would
    visit another shop.
    
    You should be able to get a pretty good price if they have the bike in
    stock. I know we are getting 91' in next week. 
     
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Dave
    
    
       

    I wasn't aware that you could buy the frameset alone from cannondale. 
    Since I did intend to change most of the components anyway, that might
    make the most sense.  I seem to recall reading in another note that
    cannondale only makes so many frames each year & so I'd probably be
    looking at waiting until the next model year's frames were coming out. 
    Anyone have any idea when that might be?

     The 91's (who know's if any changes have been made) should be
    available now. I haven't read any thing about changes this year.
    That's they way I ordered mine and built it from the ground up.
    
     Chip

    re .47:
    
>    I LIKE the green . . . Yea, I know it's not a rational thing (I never
>    said I WAS rational, or even coherent for that matter), but the ST1000
>    really appealed to me . .  . understated elegance and all that.   The
    
    Well, OK, but REALIZE that all the people on the FAST RED bikes are
    gonna dust you off!!!  Gotta ask yourself - is my father more likely to
    buy a BRIGHT, SHINY, FAST, SNAZZY, ATTENTION GRABBING, "RED" sports
    car, or a slow, elderly, conservative, boring, 4-door, family sedan,
    dark green car?  OK, OK, JUST KIDDING! :^)
    
    Actually, if the ST1000 is what appeals to you GO FOR IT.  Lets face
    it, anything that qualifies as "TOYS" you just HAVE to go with what
    feels good and NOT be ruled purely by rationality or logic.  After all,
    this isn't just TRANSPORTATION, it has to make you happy when you ride
    it.  Even when it IS just transportation I'd sure rather drive
    something fun than a Yugo or something (not counting DEcmobiles and
    such)!
    
    As far as frames only - when I talked to Cannondale they said the STxxx
    frames were $425.  I don't know if this price will hold for the new
    model year or not.  But, if you intend to put your own components on
    one, this may be an "inexpensive" way to get a Cannondale frame.
    
    In any case, good luck - I have only had my C-dale for a little while,
    but I like it a WHOLE lot.

    Well, I'm a slow, conservative old f@rt anywsy, so what th heck - let
    those young wippersnappers pass me by - I'll be clunking along when
    they're all kneeless! ;^)
    
    I should probably back up a bit & explain that when I first started
    riding this past July, on my recently acquired ancient Peugeot, I made
    the mistake of picking up a copy of "Bicycle" magazine.  They were
    reviewing the Cannondale ST1000, and I immediately fell in love with
    it, and sold my motorcycle with the intention of buying one (who cares
    what it rides like - it LOOKS so . . . classic).  Anyway, in a moment
    of uncharacteristic generosity, I passed up the cannondale in order to
    be able to buy a bike for my wife as well.  When I finally got to try
    one of the Cdale tourers perhaps I was predisposed to like it but I
    was not dissappointed by the ride.  In the interim I've compared
    everything else to that & keep coming back to it.  I've been riding a
    Shogun with race geometry all summer & while I don't OBJECT to it, I
    really don't take advantage of what the quick freme offers.

    	It is always nice to hear someone find a machine that they love.
    I've heard Cannondale's looks called many things, but "classic" isn't
    one of them.  Neither is "conventional" a common description.  Glad you
    like it, though.   Maybe I should update to a "traditional" carbon
    fiber frame...
    
    					John the Dinosaur
    
    PS - If you want to see "pre-classic" stuff, I can show you a wool
         jersey, high-flange hubs, toe clips, sew-ups, a C.O.N.I. geometry
         steel frame, a non-indexed derailleur, and brake levers with
         cables that stick out the top.  (It is out on loan as the temporary 
         Bat-bike until Mike's Tesch arrives.)

    C.O.N.I.  ????

     Gotta agree, I've heard C-DALE called a lot of things, but "classic"
    hasn't been one. Stuff like recycled beer cans and Cannon-snail comes
    immediately to mind...
    
     I like it though... It will be my TT bike this summer 
    
                   "SEMPER STIFF"
                    ____________
    
      CHIP
                    

>    C.O.N.I.  ????

    I forget which letter stands for what, but it is (or was??)
    the Italian olympic bike team training school.

    I think that the C.O.N.I. frame refers to something that they
    published in the early seventies titled "Modalities for Constructing
    Bicycle Frames to Measure".  It gives charts where if you measure
    the riders arm, leg, and torso length, they indicate what size
    top tube and seat tube to use.  It's kind of a distant ancestor
    to fit kit.

    If you have a bike designed with this method, it is ndisputably
    of "classic" geometry.

    -Jeff

      I live in Munich and am currently trying to locate a cheap source for a
      Bridgestone MB5. I would then like to ship it to Germany.

      Am I the first to try this... The price difference is considerable from
      my early qutions. The MB5 costs dm1198 ($750) in Germany.

      Any tip from someone who has done this would be appreciated.
      Rgds,
      Stephen

    	C.O.N.I. was (is?) an Italian school.  They published a book about
    how to ride, how to design frames, etc.   The angles that they
    recommended resulted in racing bikes that look like modern tourers.  
    If you consider that they were developed by people who rode longer 
    distance races over ghastly post war road surfaces, it makes sense, 
    though.   It wasn't so much primitive as it was appropriate technology 
    for the place and time.
    
    	Anyway, CONI design was the baseline from which many builders
    started to experiment and come up with modern ideas of how a racing
    bike should be built (which tri-types have been messing with again.)
    

    I hadn't even thought about the decidedly nontraditional aspect of
    Cannondale frames, perhaps because that dark green color seems to
    de-emphasize it somewhat.  When I was a kid there was a guy on my block
    that had a dark green Royal Enfield 3-speed, with a tan leather seat,
    fenders, and racks (we, of course, used to torment him without mercy). 
    Secretly, however, I always thought the bike was kinda neat, and I
    guess that the Cannondale's color, fenders, saddle and matching racks
    reminded me of that - the sort of thing you would expect to see a
    British mailman pedaling through the countrysides, wot?