Conference noted::bicycle

    Regina has just put out a new freewheel and Chain combo that works with
    the campy syncro. I tried it on a new Cannondale with the Athena
    grouppo and it worked amazingly well. the Freewheel and chain combo
    cost about $55.00 in the store I work at. I will check on the model
    name of the freewheel and chain tonight just to make sure. 
    
    Huey

     I hope it's offered soon. I tried a bunch of combo's and
    finally trashed the Synchro II and went friction.
    
     Chip

I've been thinking about getting a Chorous derailleur (or at least asking for
one for Christmas).  I'd be using it in place of the Super Record that I have.
My logic for switching is that the Chorous has a fixed jockey pulley and should
provide equal performance regardless of the front chain position.  (Right now
the shifting is slightly better when on the smaller front chainwheel - which is
to be expected given the Super's design).

Anyway, since I'm not interested in index (at this time) but I am interested in
finding out if anyone has made such a change and what they thought about it.
I'm already (very) used to the Super's late-shifting and do all of the necessary
compensating.  Is the switch to a Chorous (which I assume is early shifting)
going to drive me nuts?

Dick

    Re .0:
    
    It's certainly true that some pro teams are using the Campag cassette
    system because I've seen it on Castorama's bikes. The rear hub is a lot
    more bulbous than the equivalent Dura-Ace hub; looks a bit pregnant.
    
    In the current issue of Cycling Weekly (a UK magazine), I noticed one
    of the big mail order places was advertising that they had cassette
    systems in stock, though without quoting a price. It quoted three
    clusters as being available - I wonder if this means that the sprockets
    will be bolted together in fixed combinations, a la Shimano Hyperglide,
    rather than available separately for cyclists to mix and match, a la
    Shimano pre-Hyperglide systems?
    
    
    Rod

    I was talking to the 10 Speed Importer sales rep last Friday and she
    said that Campy had just put it out on the market. I don't know what
    the price is yet. I will let you know as soon as I find out.
    
    Huey

>                       <<< Note 1734.5 by EXPRES::HUI >>>
>
>    I was talking to the 10 Speed Importer sales rep last Friday 
    
    Now they'll have to call themselves 16 Speed Importers.
    
    
    Rod

I read in one of the cycle mags, Velo News I think, where the teams such as Z
were actually using the indexing.  I notice that the new C-Record (now called
just Record) is a SunTour clone design.  Unless there was a major breakthrough
it seems unlikely that the shifting could be better than Shimano or SunTour.
Maybe as good but better would be tough.


>           <<< Note 1734.4 by JUMBLY::MACFADYEN "Send money now!" >>>
>
>                                  I wonder if this means that the sprockets
>    will be bolted together in fixed combinations, a la Shimano Hyperglide,
>    rather than available separately for cyclists to mix and match, a la
>    Shimano pre-Hyperglide systems?

I don't have a hyperglide cassette so I'm not sure how they are bolted together
but my pre-Hyperglide system is bolted together.  The 5 big cogs are held
together by 3 bolts.  It doesn't really seem necessary, after all where are
they going to go if they weren't bolted together?  Do Hyperglides have to be
bolted together?  How many cogs are bolted?  Is the orientation of one cog to
the next important?

>                  <<< Note 1734.7 by VERVE::BUCHANAN "Bat" >>>
>
> I don't have a hyperglide cassette so I'm not sure how they are bolted together
> but my pre-Hyperglide system is bolted together.  The 5 big cogs are held
> together by 3 bolts.  It doesn't really seem necessary, after all where are
> they going to go if they weren't bolted together?  
    
    It isn't necessary, you can unbolt them and put in different sprockets
    as you like. The top threaded sprocket holds it all together, just as
    you imply. This system is very flexible as to possible ratios, and I
    wish Shimano would continue to support it or else license someone else
    to do so.
    
>                                             Do Hyperglides have to be
> bolted together?  How many cogs are bolted?  Is the orientation of one cog to
> the next important?

    Hyerglides come in bolted-together clusters with a top separate
    sprocket, just like pre-Hyperglide. The difference is that orientation
    of one sprocket to another *is* important - the point where there's a
    lowered tooth on one sprocket is related to the step embossed on the
    side of the next bigger sprocket. I have a feeling that you can't undo
    the sprockets from one another. In any event you're limited to the
    ratio combinations Shimano choose to sell, which seems like a
    retrograde step.
    
    The attachment of the top sprocket is different and more
    complicated.
    
    
    Rod

    One more thing about Hyperglide: you can't put Hyperglide clusters onto
    non-Hyperglide cassette hubs, or vice-versa. The two types of cassette
    hubs use a different spline arrangement. 
    
    There's no way Shimano are going to allow you to minimise the cost of
    moving to Hyperglide.
    
    
    Rod

    .9 is half correct. You can not put hyperglide cog on a non 
    hyperglide cassette hub, but you can also put standard cogs onto a 
    hyperglide cassette hub. I have standard 600 cogs on my 600 hyberglide
    cassette right now. 
    
    As for the difference in the hubs. The hygberglide hubs has 1 notch
    that is wider than the rest of the notch to align all the hyberglide
    cogs correctly. This way, you don't worry about the rotation of the
    hyberglide cogs when you're putting them on. 
    
    The hyperglide cogs will soon be available separately. But it will
    probably go for $7-9 a cog. So it might be cheaper to get all 7 of them
    for about $25. 
    
    Huey

    
     This may not belong to this note but there may be some other people
     confused about the differences between freewheels and cassettes...
    
     What is the basic differences and what are the advantages of using
     one vrs another...???  I, of course, know myself...  Im only asking 
     for other people....   :-) ...  
    
     jim o.
    
    
    

    
    First, I would term the cassette system a type of freewheel,
    because "freewheel" simply means you can coast (not pedal)
    and the wheel still moves.  Cp. Fixed Gear.
    
    So, cassette systems vs. classic freewheel:
    
      - a classic freewheel cluster contains the freewheel mechanism
        (ratchet teeth that allow the freewheeling) and screws onto the hub;
        it is then held in place because the threads are in the opposite
        direction of pedaling force (pedaling screws the cluster *on*);
    
      - a cassette cluster *slides* onto a hub that contains the freewheel
        mechanism; the cluster is held in place by a lock-ring (the gears
        in the cluster are held together by brackets).
    
    Advantages/disadvantages:
    
      - A cassette cluster may be easier to remove, because you only have
        to loosen the lock ring (a classic freewheel cluster may need
        a vise and large wrench).
    
      - When you change a cassette cluster, you are only changing out the
        gears, not the freewheel mechanism ... so in theory the cassette
        system should be cheaper (which it isn't, in my experience).
    
      - When something goes wrong with a *classic* freewheel, you replace
        the freewheel (in fact, you only need to replace the body; the
        gears can be reused); when a cassette system's freewheel body
        goes bad, you have to replace the hub (which means rebuilding
        the whole wheel).
    
      - Weight? No big difference.  Price?  No big difference, I think.
    
    So there are plusses and minuses on both sides.
    
    That's the basics.  Certainly no overpowering reason for going to
    a cassette system.  But more knowledgeable people will certainly
    fill us in on what I've missed - why, for example, Campy went to
    cassettes for its 8sp wheel.
    
    -john 

    One reason for a manufacturer to go to a cassette system is that he can
    make more money by having his customers locked into his system.
    
    If one were to believe in a more altruistic Campy, however, one would
    realize that in the hub for a classical freewheel, the right hand
    bearing is pretty far in on the axle, whereas it is closer to the
    dropout on a cassette hub.  On an 8 spd hub/axle, the bearing would
    be yet a few % closer to the center of the axle.  This realization in
    conjunction with Campys reputation for breaking axles, makes one
    realize that they want to sell the sucker without taking any more
    hits for low product quality [and thus, make more money].
    
    ed

    
    humm..  
    
    Thanks for the quick replies...   So when can we expect to see the 
    John Ellis "Everything you need to know about biking, but were afraid
    to ask"  book...  
    
    :-)   
    
    
    
    

    
    RE: .-1  I see this as a collaborative effort, much like the 
    exchange here, where I supply the naivite and basic facts, and
    someone like Ed who really knows what he's talking about puts 
    the icing on the cake while correcting the more egregious fallacies. :-)
    
    -john

     The most attractive advantage (and this is really for folks who
    do a variety of riding and have to change ratios) is that it is
    easier to "regear" the bike with a casette.
    
      Chip

    
     John E. is correct about cassettes vs. "classic freewheels" except
    for one big misconception.  One that many people make and may be a
    big part of the reason cassettes have not made bigger sales.
      When one fries the innards of a cassette the whole hub does not need
    to be replaced.  Simply remove the cogs and axle.  Then grab your
    trusty 10mm allen wrench (that's TEN millimeter) and unthread the 
    freewheel unit.  Replace with a new unit ( I paid $17.00 for the wrench
    and Deore XT freewheel unit).  The total time for teardown and rebuild 
    was about 15 minutes.         
      Something else I like about the cassette systems is that replacing
    cogs is simpler and easier.  I can change my gearing at a race in under
    2 minutes with just two chain whips.  
      I don't hate freewheels but I think cassette systems are better.
    
    							Norm
    
      
      

    
    Thanks, Norm, I certainly didn't know that the freewheel body
    could be replaced - it's not a highly publicized fact, but 
    should be: it's a definite plus for the cassette system.
    
    -john

    Sort of a factoid, really.
    
    Re: the new cassettes, how does one replace just a cog or two?
    They look like they can pop apart but as one who used to "fix"
    his father's watches, I wonder first nowadays.
    
    ed

>    ... Then grab your
>    trusty 10mm allen wrench (that's TEN millimeter) and unthread the 
>    freewheel unit.

For which cassettes is this true?

It wasn't on mine.  The freewheel part was swaged on.
This was seven years ago.  Have they all changed?

-Jeff

    
    A guy at the bikeshop showed how to take apart a Hyperglide cassette.
    Didn't seem hard or potentially destructive at all - just a matter of
    removing the bracket.  Everything fits kind of loosely together.
    
    Of course, changing out gears in a cassette is no faster than on 
    a classic freewheel - probably a bit slower (by a couple of seconds),
    due to fiddling.
    
    The speed, as Norm points out, is in how quickly you can switch out
    whole cassettes.  Just think: this could bring back the old days,
    when racers would dismount at a critical point in the race (e.g., 
    at the base of a big climb) and flip over their fixed-gear rear wheels
    (to use gear on the other side).  :-)
    
    -john

     I guess I would agree that just changing a freewheel is quicker.
    It's a heck of a lot quicker changing cogs on a cassette, however.
    
     The cogs on a cassette kind of slide on in a "keyed" sort of set
    up (for those of you who know what I mean) whereas the freewheel
    is threaded (each cog) onto the body. 
    
     Yes, you can pick up very cheap freewheels, but a decent freewheel
    is much more expensive than a cog for a cassette (except CAMPY maybe).
    
     I know, I know... Now we're into what  "DECENT"  freewheel is/costs
                                     :-)
    
    
            Chip

      
      There still seems to be some mystery to cassette systems.  I do not
    have experience with the Suntour of Campy cassettes so what I say 
    pertains to Shimano only.  Most likely Suntour and Campy work in a 
    similar manner.  
      When someone purchases a new bike or replacement cassette cogs the 
    cogs are fixed together by three bolts.  The first thing I do is remove 
    the bolts and toss them.  This procedure greatly reduces the time to
    change individual cogs.  Removing the bolts will not affect the
    shifting.  What it does is allow the cogs to be slid on individually.
    This is how I can change my gearing in under two minutes.  I simply
    slide off the cogs I don't want and slide on their replacement.
      For anyone who has seen "classic freewheels" or their cogs "welded"
    on, a cassette system is a welome relief.  At the worst cassette cogs 
    would have to be tapped with a plastic mallet to free them.  The bolt 
    that holds on the freehub is completely internal and I have never heard 
    of one of them "freezing up". Not even under harsh offroad racing 
    conditions.  
    
    RE: .20
      For the older swaged on freehub a tool does exist that will remove
    and install them.  I don't know how much time is involved for the older
    versions.      
    
    						Norm
    

    I use Maillard 6 and 7 speed conventional blocks, I don't have problems
    removing them from the hub and I don't have problems changing the
    sprockets.  The longest time required is for me to descend the 4
    terrasses through the garden to get to my neighbour's cellar where his
    workbench and vice live.
    
    All the sprockets are not screwed on, at least 4 and maybe more are
    splined and therefore slide on.  With a vice and a sprocket remover
    it's easy - the trick is not to leave them on the wheel for a couple of
    winters but to remove them frequently and clean them up, refitting with
    a few good blobs of grease.
    
    In most cases, if you change sprockets you are more likely to run into
    wear problems, so in fact you may need to replace the majority and also
    the chain.  What I tend to do is to keep top and bottom, change all the
    rest and buy a new chain as well, follow this procedure twice and then
    replace the lot including the body if it's suspect.
    
    I like the idea of cassettes from an engineering principle, the
    overhung bearings on a 7 speed hub are really horrible, but then no
    real engineer would be happy with the way the chain runs out of line
    anyway.  There was a gear/freewheel system made back in the dark ages
    where the body slid laterally on splines so that the chain was always in
    line.....

     JUST AN FYI... The CAMPY set-up is void of the three bolts... You
    just spin the first cog off an voila! I'm talking the 8spd cassette.
    
       Chip

 >> JUST AN FYI... The CAMPY set-up is void of the three bolts... You
 >>   just spin the first cog off an voila! I'm talking the 8spd cassette.
    
  I think Shimano has tossed the three bolt system out. The new cassettes 
  don't have them (must of been over kill). Cut some weight also ;-)