Conference noted::bicycle

    
    10,000 miles should not be a problem.
    
    However, at 100,000 miles, I had a crank break at the screw-in
    point for the pedal.

More likely the bottom bracket then the crank.  If the BB is worn the cranks
will slop around a bit.  The chain ring will appear to move left and right.

re. -1:  100,000 miles?  I've never had a car that's gone that far.  But then
         again it's probabily one of your new bikes.

>More likely the bottom bracket then the crank.  If the BB is worn the cranks
>will slop around a bit.  The chain ring will appear to move left and right.

    Sounds likely.
    
>re. -1:  100,000 miles?  I've never had a car that's gone that far.  But then
>         again it's probabily one of your new bikes.
    
    Hee hee.  It was a funny feeling, by the way, cranking up a slight
    hill, and suddenly having the right pedal just hanging off your foot
    in mid-air, as the bike quickly s-l-o-w-s to a stop.
    
    -j

    It's even more fun when you're out of the saddle when a pedal breaks.
    
    Ouch, ooh, ah,
    
    ed

           <<< Note 1584.4 by QUICKR::FISHER "Dictionary is not." >>>

    It's even more fun when you're out of the saddle when a pedal breaks.

There was a picture of Fignon sitting on the pavement, looking really
spaced out in something like Winning.  He'd broken a BB spindle, and
the crank just came right off, sending him to the pavement.

- Jim

    
    Earlier this year I thought I was going to have to replace the crank
    for the same reason as mentioned in .0. I was able to get it so that
    the wobble was greatly reduced by trying the three remaining sides
    of the spindle. I was further able to fine-tune it by rotating the
    chainwheels to their different possible mounting points. Just don't
    forget to change the left crank arm to be 180 degrees opposite!
    
    rb 

    Re; .5 Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy... :-)
    
           Chip

    Sounds like I have a similar problem, maybe.  With the chain on the big
    chainring and me pedalling hard, the chainring moves back and forth
    ~1-2 mm, making it rub against the outside front derailleur cage.  I've
    adjusted the BB cup so that I can't detect any play (by trying to move
    the crank ends), but it hasn't helped.  My next thought was to just
    change the high front der. screw, but I have very little room to work
    with there without the crank hitting the derailleur.  How much
    clearance should be between the crank arm and the front derailleur in
    top gear?  I have barely 1-2 mm.  I have about the same clearance
    between the crank and the chain.  The front derailleur is properly
    lined up and installed.
    
    Jamie

    The rings might "move back and forth" because they are not mounted
    perfectly orthogonal to the axle.  Is it only when you pedal hard or
    other times too?  Generally this is normal -- never could get 'em
    perfect anyway.  If the big ring is rubbing the front deraileur a
    little bit at one "spot" per crank turn, your deraileur might be too
    low.  Raise it a mm or two.
    
    As for the crank arm hitting the der. cage, is that like only the
    back part of the cage?  loosen and rotate the der. a few degrees
    so that the outer plate is parallel to the big ring, at least at
    some point in its wobble.
    
    Did that make sense?  If not, wait a moment someone else will add
    a few more replies.
    
    ed

    I get the problem a *lot*.  In fact on my touring bike it took me about
    3 *hours* to align the cage front cage.  Now I can *just* be on my
    topmost gear (front and back) and neither rub the chainring nor knock
    the arms.  
    
    I had always thought that the answer was trivial - that my chainring is
    not longer flat (it's an `economical' Stronglight).   When I put a
    newer ring on the problem goes away.  Now this topic has got me
    wondering... (especially since my other bike has developed the same
    problem - which I again had thought to be a worn ring)

    I spent some time tweaking it last night and it works a little better. 
    There's still very little room to play with, though.  I think I may
    have packed too much grease into the BB and that's contributing to my
    chainring wobble.  Should the BB get a light coat of grease or is the
    rule-of-thumb "you can never have too much"?
    
    Jamie

I had similar problems and found that crank arm was not on quite tight enough.
-Larry Cohen

    It is possible to have the crank arm too tight however.
    
    ed

>    It is possible to have the crank arm too tight however.

    And this can lead to failure, the arm can crack at the BB axle hole.

    - Jim

    what happened to me [when the crank arm was too tight] was that I
    ripped the threads out of it removing the sucker.  It was so tight that
    I was using a 15 inch "booster" to turn the remover, still breathing
    hard (ok, ok, grunting) trying to turn the remover.  When it finally
    came off the arm was still there.
    
    Drat!
    
    ed

The way I determined that the crank arm was "slightly" loose was to grab
one crank arm and see if there was some play in the crank.  There was not.
I grabbed the other arm and tried again.  This time there was a little play.
Aha! I said to myself.  I tightened the arm up a little and all was fine
again.  Like the previous replies said you dont want to overtighten the arm
and for that matter any bolt.  I must have been a little over cautious
when I last greased the bottom bracket and did not tighten things up enough.
-Larry

    
    Re.15
    
    Ed,
    
       Just out of curiosity, how did you manage to get the arm off once
    you had stripped the thread?
    
    	Also, anyone any tips for seriously stubborn crank bolts. I'm
    nursing a finger that was ripped to hell after trying to remove it at
    the weekend.
    
    Graham.
    

    haven't yet, the stable's got other mounts.  A hacksaw's the plan.
    
    :-(
    
    ed

Don't despair, you might be able to use a conventional "puller" which hooks
behind the crank (RH or LH) and presses against the axle.   The ones provided
are a bit weak but are commensurate with the forces required to do them up (if
you see what I mean).

On the old Alan, the Shimano 600 has an Allen bolt which holds the crank on and
is also used in the opposite sense to remove it - seems a good isea, I wonder
it's not more common...........

    My "conventional pullers" worked fine on a lawn mower but don't
    work on a bike because (a) the crank has a rounded rather than
    flat surface and (b) the space between the crank and the adjustable
    cup is too small.
    
    As for the Alan bolt things that hold some cranks on, I have some
    on a few of the steeds and, of course, the C-Records come that way.
    If they were on this crank, they too would have ripped the thread out
    of the crank or broken themselves.
    
    :.(    :.(..
    ed

    Re Ed's problem (.15 etc.)
    
    The standard technique for using pullers of any kind is to tighten up
    moderately (subjective term, I know), then tap the end of the puller
    with a hammer. This (nearly always) shocks the joint between the 2 
    components into separating without further force being needed.
    
    Chris 

    
    	The reason I asked, is that one of my concerns is that a standard
    crank is made from a light alloy, the removal tool from a strong
    steel. If you have a seized crank, I reckon you're always going to have
    a problem with stripping the thread. Unfortunately, it's been some time
    since I last paid mine much attention...
    
    	Is it possible to tap new threads into the crank? Don't want the
    same hassle all the time.
    
    	Let me know how you get on Ed. Hopefully I can learn from your
    experience. At least it'll force me into looking at my crank/bottom
    bracket more often :(
    
    Graham.
    

    It seems to me that the whole method of fixing cranks to BB spindles is
    ripe for redesign. The standard design of screwing the crank onto a
    taper is awful: after being tightened it frequently comes loose again,
    you can overtighten and destroy the crank, if you leave it too long the
    whole thing seizes up, and even if you do everything right, it doesn't
    take too many remove-replace cycles before the taper hole in the crank
    is worn so much that it won't tighten again.
    
    And I recently saw what looks like a good design, on US-made Bullseye
    cranks on an ATB. The crank fixes to the spindle in the same way as a
    handlebar stem fixes to a handlebar. I thought it looked pretty
    sensible.
    
    
    Rod

	Sorry Rod, I have to disagree, but then what is controversy about
anyway?

	I got my first Stronglight 49D's in 1960 and used them until my piggy
bank was full enough to buy Campag.  They were all perfect and gave me very
little trouble.  In fact the only time I had any problems with C/L cranks was
when I misguidedly bought a "new improved version" from Williams.  This had a
splined axle like the old Gnutti set and was USELESS.

	Currently I have:
1 Campag Sport (old type)
1 Campag Chorus
2 49D
2 Stronglight 80/100
1 Shimano 600 (old type - with A/K tightener/extractor combined)

	To date they have all been OK (touch wood).  I wonder how many people
use a bigger tommy-bar than that supplied and over-tighten them - it's that
length for a reason y'know.  They should also be fitted dry and not greased.  As
a last step if you are really paranoid about them dropping off, just a dab of
Loctite on the screw will do it (not the permanent type but the type that real
engineers use) or you could use my cheapjack solution of tub cement.

	I don't think you'll see any cranks on the Mt Blanc road, only eyeballs
and shot bolts.........

 IDEFIX::HEMMINGS writes:
>  They should also be fitted dry and not greased.  

    These days, the word is to install cranks clean and
    lightly greased, but not dry.  Very few of us have the
    right equipment to completely degrease a crank and
    spindle anyways.

    If the two surfaces were completely clean, they would
    tend to stick and seize, until a pedal stroke breaks the bond.

    Ask your local tribologist for more details.

-Jeff

	re -.1

	I haven't bought new cranks for some time (really? - I'd never have
guessed!!) so am not au courant, but I guess what I meant was -

"... just wipe the crank and axle with a clean bit of rag...'

and not

" .....go to your nearest Industrial Cleaner and remove every atom of grease so
that it stands a good chance of welding together..."

	!!

    re .23  Bullseye Cranks - I had a set of these cranks, and they
    didn't last 2 months...  there is too much force involved in that
    joint to make the handlebar grip hold up.  Bullseye has a little
    pin-clip to hold them in but I guess my Quads are just TOO strong %')
    But, hey, if you really like them, I'd be happy to unload - er, I
    mean sell - them to you for $40 (as is).  I hate to think what I
    paid for them and they are just sitting in the basement now.
    So much for Made in America
    
    m 

    OK, maybe I'm  wrong about Bullseye cranks. But if current crank fixing
    methods are so wonderful, why is that crank woes are one of the most
    continuing causes of grief, judging by this notesfile?
    
    
    Rod

	It's the nuts on the end of the tommy-bars.......

;>)

    This question may not belong here but I'll try it anyways.
    
    I recently bought a Univega Rover STI mountain bike. On my first
    ride (8-10 miles hard-top), I noticed that the front crank was
    making sort of a crackling/clunking sound. Upon further inspection
    I noticed that there was considerable side play in the crank and that
    when rotating the crank, the chain-wheel had a noticable "eccentric"
    rotation to it.  My questions are.....
    
    o Is this more likely a factory assembly defect or bad prep/assembly
      by the dealer?
    
    o What specifically should the dealer do to correct the problem? I
      am concerned that they will only tighten the crank bearings and that
      there might be damage to the bearing races or BB.
    
    o It appears that the bearing cap or cup (left side of crank) is
      not set and the bearing cavity is exposed. Should the crank be
      totally disassembled,flushed and repacked before tightenting?
    
    Would appreciate any advice.....I plan to take the bike into the
    dealer this eveing.
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan

    
    It's something that the shop should've picked up on, and to be honest,
    it's a disgrace they never. I'd think twice about using them again.
    Normally, tightening up the cup and lock ring would be enough, but I'm
    concerned at your descriprion that the bearings are exposed. This
    shouldn't be possible as the bearings are kept inside the cup which you
    screw into the bottom bracket which holds the race between the cup and
    flangs of the spindle. Exactly what does it look like.
    
    Graham.

    Graham-
    
    Thanks for the quick response.
    
    
    What I see, looking at the left side of the crank, is that there
    seem to be a black cup like cover inside the notched chrome locking
    ring. This cup seems to be unseated or seated at an angle such that
    I can see into the crank cavity. BTW, the lock ring seems to be secure.
    
    I may not be using the correct terminology, but this preety much
    describes what I have found visually. I mostly concerned about long
    term effects of this probelm.....especially if the shop simply
    tightens things up.
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan 

Take the bike back totally.  Demand a new one, same type, same everything.

The shop will either say no problem and swap for you or make a deal with
you to replace all the parts and have you keep the bike.

I would demand a new BB and new cranks if there is any damage to the area
where the cranks connects to the BB spindle.


Make the shop do it right you paid for this remember,
Tom

    
    I agree with the last reply. The bottom bracket usually has a 
    fixed cup (right side) and an adjustable cup (left side) that threads
    into the frame. If the adjustable cup is at an angle, it means that 
    is has stripped it's threads, or the  frames's threads, or was threaded 
    wrong to begin with(or some similar scenerio). If your adjustable cup 
    is made out of metal (and even if it is not) there might be significant 
    damage to the bottom bracket area. If you are familiar at all with
    a bottom bracket, I would make them pull the crank arm and remove the 
    adjustable cup and examine the threads where the adjustable cup threads
    into the frame. If it's torn up or been cross threaded, demand a new 
    bike. If the adjustable cup has been torn up, demand a new bottom
    bracket. 
    
    doug
    

    Since I'm not a bike mechanic......I'm expecting the shop to tell me
    that it's a simple matter of retorqing the crank. Is there anything
    visually I can check to determine whether any damage has been done?
    
    I have no reason to distrust the shop except that obviously their pre-
    delivery prep was pretty shoddy. But how would I be able to tell that they
    in fact replaced the crankset and BB and didn't just grease and tighten
    the old one.
    
    Jonathan
    

If you want a "mechanic" quick look at it, I am work in AKO1,
if you have it with you, I'll be glad to take a look at it.
It sounds like the fixed cup became loose.  I don't think it
the bike shop did anything wrong, the fixed cup isn't generally
looked at during assembly.  If it left the shop loose, that is
another story.  With only a few miles on it, the shop should
remove both crank arms, look at the bearings to insure they are
all there, then re-assemble.  Basically a 20 min job...

Steve

    Steve-
    
    Thanks for your offer.......I think I'd feel alot better getting
    a knowledgable opinion before take the bike into the shop. I'll
    give you a call at AKO1.
    
    I'll post the results of Steve's exam and bike shop visit later.
    
    Thx for all the advice.
    
    Jonathan

    Steve Fuller took a look at the loose crank axle problem. What I
    thought was the adjusting cap was really just a plastic dust cover that
    sit loose. Steve felt that the probelm was definately in factory
    assembly.....suspects one or more of the bearing balls may be missing.
    In any case, there is no issue of a stripped bottom bracket, so I
    feel a lot better. I spoke with the shop and will bring it in over
    the weekend so that I can wait for it and oversee the repairs.
    
    My thanks to Steve and everybody else for their advice,
    
    Jonathan                                               

My wifes bike has slight clunk eminating from the crank.
I pulled the crank and repacked the bearings (they were in bearing
clips) and the clunk still occurred.  
I tried removing the bearing clips and put in 11 bearings on each side.
Still have a clunk.  I did not notice any roughness in the races.
Any ideas?   The clunk occurs on the right side only when the pedal
goes over the top.  You can really feel the clunk vibrate in the frame
each time it happens.

Help!

-Larry Cohen

Assuming that the BB bearing is correctly adjusted, here are two other
things to think about:

1.  Sometimes the clunk is actually coming from one of the pedals (too much 
    freeplay in the bearing)
2.  The chain-ring side of some less-expensive cranks is actually a 2-piece
    assembly in which the chainring hub is mechanically bonded to a smaller
    crank hub (in essence, the crank hub is one big hollow rivet ...).
    Through age and use, the inner hub will rotate against the outer hub
    (a degree or too) producing a clunk.  


    

    Another possibility:  The chain ring bolt(s) are loose.  It would
    cause the small ring to "play".  The more torque, the louder the
    knock.
    
    r�