Conference noted::bicycle

    Yes, some braking is better than none, but if I can make any
    argument it would be, always ride close to the brake-levers
    if you are in a situation with limited visibility, prone to
    surprises, etc.
    
    You can ride with your hands on *top* of the brake-hoods -
    that seems to be feasible ... but I wouldn't have my hands on
    the center part of the handlebars in a traffic situation.
    
    As you say, if it's emergency and unexpected, you'll likely
    need all the braking power you can get.
    
    -j

    	I agree with John. In traffic situation, keep your hands
    	in the drops, near the levers.
    
    	With the new bike, I can brake (not panic stop) adequately
    	simply using the index finger and middle finger on each hand.
    
    	Scott

         My last bike had the safety levers. As was said
         previously, the stopping power of the safety levers is
         definitely less than the lowers.

         It took one ride to get used to not having the levers
         there. Now I feel that I am actually better off not having
         them. There are a lot of reasons not to be on the tops of
         the bars when braking. Your ability to control the bike is
         not quite as good, you can't manuver as fast etc.

         I really haven't missed the safety levers at all. I don't
         think it is a macho thing at all. I don't feel that there
         is any big advantage to having them.

         JC

    re: all
    
    My first bike some 18 years ago had levers that were called coasting 
    brakes - they said nothing about safety nor, looking back, would they
    have angthing to do with safety.

    Thanks for the input so far.  Good advice from all, but my central
    question remains (mostly) unanswered; maybe I can rephrase it:
    
    	If someone were to invent a "perfect" safety lever (i.e.
        something that provides just as much braking power as
        the regular drop-mounted brake levers), would there be
        any reasons NOT to use it?
    
    MILKWY::CRITCHLOW mentions at least one possibility:
    
	> There are a lot of reasons not to be on the tops of
        > the bars when braking. Your ability to control the bike is
        > not quite as good, you can't manuver as fast etc.
    
    I hear ya.  However, what I was thinking was that there ARE going
    to be times when you're relaxing on top of the bars and something
    (dog, car, SOAPBOXer 8-) ) is going to pop out of nowhere and
    require that you stop NOW... and having brakes close at hand
    would be really nice...
    
    Or are you trying to say that if I'm going fast enough so that
    I need THAT much braking power then I should be riding in the
    drops anyway... and if I'm going slowly enough to be riding upright
    then I should be able to afford the split-second it'll take to
    reach the brake levers?  (Remember, I AM new at this...)
    
    Thanks for your patience 8-)
    
    --jim
    

>    Or are you trying to say that if I'm going fast enough so that
>    I need THAT much braking power then I should be riding in the
>    drops anyway... and if I'm going slowly enough to be riding upright
>    then I should be able to afford the split-second it'll take to
>    reach the brake levers?  (Remember, I AM new at this...)


         Yeah, I guess that is essentially what I am saying. But,
         more to the point that I was trying to make, I just plain
         don't miss having them. I don't feel less safe. I have yet
         to be in a position to have that "split-second" delay make
         a difference.

         I wonder if the reduced braking power of the safety levers
         would wash the effects of the split-second delay anyway?

         Putting the ideal case of safety levers that work as well
         aside for a moment:

         I think that the prevailing message about the levers in
         general is (as previously mentioned) that they can lull you
         into some dangerous habits. My wife uses the levers almost
         exclusively and will not let me take them off. You can be
         sure I keep them properly adjusted. There clearly are many
         situations where using the lower levers will give more
         control. But, since the safety levers are closer they get
         used first. Is that bad? Not usually, sometimes though...

         Just my perceptions here,  :-)

         JC

I for one wouldn't use the levers even if they were in style (read COOL) to
have on your bike. I almost never ride with my hands on the tops of the bars.
I ride with my hands on the brake hoods 85% of the time. These newer aero brake
levers have the most comfortable grips on them and they put me in a position
that is not down on the drops or upright in the wind. As goldie said,"It's just
right." Riding with your hands on the hoods requires only the movement of your 
fingers to reach the brake levers. The only time I ride on the tops of the bars
is when I ride up a very steep hill and need to give my diaphragm more room so 
I can breath (gasp) easier. No need for brakes then, I'm going too slow for 'em.

Hey Chip, if Campy came out with C-Record safety levers would you get them?

Tom

    	I am really slow going up hills. Ya know, maybe I ought to
    	put a set of training (get it, training) wheels on my bike
    	so if I slow down too much, I won't fall over. I really
    	get embarrassed when I slow down so much on a hill I
    	fall over.
    
    	Scott

    
      I'm with .7
    
    
      I always ride on top of the hoods or down on the drops and only 
    on cross section when climbing, so I've got a hand on the situation
    most of time. 
    
     Tom 

    Well put me on the list of amatures because I think "safety levers"
    are great and I would put some on my TREK if only I had a little
    more courage (to ask someone to put them on.) It was a good point
    that r.0 made about all the breakthroughs they have made in every
    other peice of machinery on bikes why can't they work on this some
    more? It isn't macho.
    
    There, that settles this argument!
    
    Fred Mudgett

    (a) My first ten-speed (a Motobecane) had safety levers,
        and I liked them; every bike after that (including the
        Motobecane that replaced it) hasn't, and I haven't missed
        them a bit.
    
    (b) In my case, all these tradeoffs are superfluous anyway,
        since, if I need to make that really *sudden* stop, I
        use the grappling hooks *and* drogue chute that my aero
        seatpost has pretty much made necessary.  I know I've mentioned
        this before, but I think a lot of people buy the aero without
        the concommitent responsibility to back it up with state-of-the-art
        braking equipment.  ;-)
    
    -john

     C RECORD safety levers, Hmmmm.... Well Tom, maybe if they'er
    "totally" aero..... :-)
    
    
        Chip

    re .11:
    
>        use the grappling hooks *and* drogue chute that my aero
>        seatpost has pretty much made necessary.  I know I've mentioned
>        this before, but I think a lot of people buy the aero without
>        the concommitent responsibility to back it up with state-of-the-art
>        braking equipment.  ;-)

    Wow, this is one time I'm glad I ignored the advice in here to get the
    aero seatpost!  If there is ANYTHING I hate, its having to repack the
    damn chute after using it!  It is so bloody hard to get it into the
    underseat bag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :^)
    
    But, I DO like the training wheel idea from the earlier note!  I
    usually take it as a sign to get off the bike and walk up the hill when
    I fall over!
    
    Dave

    There are other hazards which are not immediately apparent when you
    buy an aero seat post, aero pedals, aero brake levers, spokes, rims,
    helmet, etc.
    
    The speeding tickets can activate the surcharge clauses on your car
    insurance.
    
    ed

Actually, when I was in the bike biz, we used to call 'em "suicide 
levers". Removing them for customers (even if they didn't buy their bike 
from us) was one of a number of little jobs we used to do for free. If 
we'd've had an aluminum recycling plant nearby, I coulda retired :-).

The primary problems with existing designs are that the lever arm is too 
long and introduces too much flex in the system - if you hold the "drop" 
lever solid in the non-braking position, you can still flex the suicide 
lever enough to touch the bars in some cases!

Also, the little wedge that actually pulls on the Real[tm] lever forces 
you to adjust the brakes so that the Real[tm] lever is already partially 
compressed, and occasionally I saw bikes where even squeezing the 
Real[tm] levers all the way to the bar didn't produce full braking. 
Ooops.

I did see a design once that eliminated problem 2, but the quality of 
the product was severely lacking and problem 1 was actually worse.

After I got rid of the suicide levers on my only bike that had 'em I 
found that I really kinda liked the little mounting pegs (extended brake 
pivot pins) and I got used to hooking my thumbs around 'em when riding 
over the hoods... long gone now, tho....
                                            ken

             <<< RANGER::$2$DUA31:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BICYCLE.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -<  Bicycling  >-
================================================================================
Note 1536.8            ZKO Wellness Center Cycling Series                 8 of 9
VERVE::BUCHANAN "Bat"                                12 lines   7-JUN-1990 16:47
                            -< You're close enough >-
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Think about driving a car.  You have to take your right foot off the
accelerator and move it to the brake.  It takes a fraction of a second.  You
don't need to drive with your left foot poised over the brake.  At least I hope
you don't.

It takes no more time to move your hand from the top to the lever than it does
to move your foot from the gas pedal to the brake pedal.

The hypothetical question was asked, WHAT IF they could make "safety levers"
that were as good as moving to the drop position?  If they could then there
would obviously be no reason not to use them.  However at this point in time
this is not the case.

    
    Safety levers are a victim of the serious elitist strain that
    permeates bicycling.  Once an item is branded uncool, all kinds
    of reasons are found to not have them, despite the convenience they
    may offer.  Kickstands have been uncool for years, and snob bikers
    used to brag how the first thing they'd do is take them off the
    bike and throw them away.
    
    Personally, I'd like to figure out some way to get coaster brakes on
    my Cannondale.
    
    	Dave

	RE: .17

	I think That you are confusing what you call "elitists" or "snobs"
	with people that are concerned with Saftey and the lives of other
	cyclists. 

	These auxiliary brake levers do not give you the capabilities of 
	the normal brakes nor can you get the control sitting upright with 
	your hands near the stem that you can bent over with your hands 
	wider apart on the brakes. When you are sitting upright you have 
	a high center of gravity. This with the loss of control from having 
	your hands so close to the stem results in a less stable situation 
	then when you have a lower center of gravity and better control 
	from being bent over with you hands on the brakes.
	
	The opposition has little if anything to do with what is cool or
	not. If you care to check I bet you'll find that the people who
	are opposed to the so called "saftey levers" are advocates of
	helmuts and helmuts aren't cool. Just ask any teenager.

	Paul

i thought those handles were the latest invention in biking - 
an antilock braking system!

you just squeeze them babies back to the bars and you get optimum braking 
without locking.

craig

>>you just squeeze them babies back to the bars and you get optimum braking 
>>without locking.
    
    	Probably would have made more sense if you said:
    
    ....optimum braking without stoping :-)
    
    						_Jerry

    RE .17  Coaster brakes?  The amount of heat you can dissipate in the
            hub of your rear wheel is so insignificant that you would
            probably be better off dragging your feet.  Coaster brakes
            belong on low speed kiddie bikes only.  Even there they are
            theoreticaly unsafe.  What if the kid is flying down a steep
            hill at 20+ mph?  Brake fade and the resulting disaster is
            a fact of life with coaster brakes.  Believe me, you are
            much better off dissipating that heat with a 26"-27" alloy
            rim rotating in the breeze.  It is entirely possible to
            unglue your tubulars with the amount of heat generated on
            a long fast downhill run.  Coaster brakes are aptly named
            because any serious braking will leave you doing just that,
            COASTING!
    
    		DON

    
    A panic stop by its nature is just that.  It's unforeseen.  If I knew
    I'd suddenly encounter an obstacle, I'd be on my drops with three
    fingers tightly clenched on each lever.
    
    In reality, most people ride bikes for recreation.  They like to sit
    upright, not crouched, and like to look around.  It's annoying when
    approaching a traffic light, just when I want to have maximum visibility
    and be maximally visible, I have to crouch down to ensure that I can
    come to a complete stop.  Moreover, if I am going slow on approaching
    an intersection, I want to be upright to maintain maximum control of
    my vehicle; safety levers which allow me to gently feather the brakes
    without coming to a complete halt would allow me to do that.
    
    Something like coaster brakes, which would allow me to keep my hands
    on the bars for maximum control, sound like an ideal answer.  Not the
    mechanics of the brakes, but the application- the ability to use my
    feet to help stop me, without leaving the control point of the pedals.
    The braking doesn't have to occur in the hub; for all I care, there can
    be coaxial disks and calipers in each wheel, with hydraulic anti-lock
    assist.
    
    I wouldn't assume that anymore than a small minority of the biking
    public is riding around at 20 mph, and for these occasional riders,
    anything that will help them to maintain control of their vehicle
    is a plus.  If the biking elite, including the magazines, had accepted
    safety levers, I'm sure bike engineers could have developed really
    mechanically effective ones.
    
    	Dave

    Dave,
    
    The biking elite have designed a bicycle for your style of riding.  Its
    called the mountain bike.  You can sit upright, have both hands on the
    handlebars at maximum width for maximum control, and have more braking
    power than you need without compromise.
    
    /Larry

    
    Hi, Larry-
    
    RE: Mountain bikes, that's my point exactly.  Mountain bike sales now 
    make up around 2/3 of all bike sales.  This share has grown at the
    expense of road bikes.  Touring bikes are all but extinct in sales.
    
    Why the growth?  Are the buyers suddenly taking off for the outback?
    Just as the number of 4X4 buyers who ever take their vehicles off-road
    is in the single-digit percentages, I'm sure the number of mountain
    bike riders riding bikes into the mountains is similar.
    
    No, the real reason for growth is that the bikes fill a real need-
    upright, comfortable position, a certain balanced heft or heaviness for
    stability, you can shift without bending over.  In other words, three
    traits that we were for years lead to believe were undesirable
    attributes in a bicyle.  Bike riders came out of the closets to welcome
    a new breed of bike over which they didn't have to crouch, and yet
    could still be socially acceptable by the biking elite.
    
    Anyhow, my real answer is my Schwinn Cantilever Cruiser.  I only use
    the Cannondale if I'm in a hurry and going far.  In other words, the
    Schwinn is pure biking; the 'dale is more akin to an automobile.  Yes,
    I belong to the anti-elite elite.
    
    	Dave
                                     

    You don't need to be on the drops to apply sufficient force on the
    brake levers to stop.  You can stop just fine with your hands on top of the
    levers, you are also upright to see what is going on.  Admittadly�you
    can apply less force in that position, than on the drops, it's still
    more than you get with "safety levers", and you are in a more stable
    postion.  Usually, if required, you can get down on the drops one hand
    at a time and do really forcefull braking.  Besides, situations that
    require a real "panic stop" should be rare.
    
    Barry

     We can solve this argument fairly quickly. As the cycling "elite"
    we should solicite some of the more progressive manufacturers, e.g.
    Shimano, to develop power disk brakes with anti-locking capability.
    
     The result is more stopping power for the real neophite cycling
    community with added control for those emergency applications.
    
     Pretty neat, huh Wally?
    
       Chip

    
    You'd think if they can develop a three-spoke fibre wheel,
    they could develop a light-weight, reliable, hydraulic 
    disk brake for bikes.  Well, maybe.
    
    (By the way, hydraulic brake systems have been in use
    for several years, in the Netherlands, I believe.
    Possibly not ready for prime time, though.)
    
    -john

    Why not do what the Auto industry does and make it an option?
    If you want to race order your stead without the disk brake.
    If saftey around town is your hot button then pay x dollars
    more for safety levers with hydraulic disks (Probably could
    use the same technology that exists today on light dirt bikes).
    Bottom line is that you get what you pay for!?!  Which probably
    explains why we haven't seen it yet - no one is willing to pay
    for saftey levers that are really safe.
    						_Jerry

    .25 is right.  You can stop more securely by dropping one or two fingers 
    down from the top of good normal brake levers than you can by using your
    whole hand on "safety" levers.  Once I've demonstrated this to novice
    cyclists, they tend to choose real brakes.
    
    It's conceivable that someone could come up with quality safety levers,
    but the cost would be too high for the target market.  Mountain bikes 
    are a great idea for those who are nervous about drop handlebars.
    
    MATT

This note seems a bit of a waste of (disc) space, perhaps if the base writer is
that concerned about safety he should take up tiddlywinks.  He could then play
at home, belted to his favourite armchair, wearing his aerodynamic helmet, in
case the ceiling falls in, and not forget his safety glasses in case some one 
tiddles in his eye.

Yours, reasonable and tolerant as ever

Robin :>)

Magura of Japan and Matthauser (sp?) in Bellingham, Wa., sell hydraulic caliper
brakes for bicycles.  Haven't heard of a hydraulic disk brakes yet.