Conference noted::bicycle

    Don't rule out the seat rails !!!!!!
    I went crazy one year trying to figure that one out.
    
    
    Eric
    

     I would give a yank on the area all 'way around. If there is a
    defect in the brazing, you'll defintely hear it. You should be
    able to see crack with the naked eye as well. Check it carefully.
    
     I do agree with the previous noter. Those little sublties can kill
    you. I own a C-Dale. I put a Trimble water carrier on my seat this
    season. I kept hearing a nois and couln't figure it out (creaking).
    After two weeks of being p*ssed I finally figured that it was the
    carrier.
    
     Chip

    
    re: .1
    
    	I should have mentioned I swapped the seat with my other bike.
    
    	/Brian

It seems unlikely (although not impossible) that it would be a broken frame. 
As stated before it is most likely creaking were two pieces are clamped
together.  I suggest that you put a thin layer of grease on and then clamp them
down tight.  This type of creaking is very common at the handle bars and stem.

    I own a C-dale (frame series 3.0). I notices as well these "creaking"
    noises after few riding hours.
    I swaped the seat post, greased all moving parts, tighten all the
    srews... and I still have this @*#% noise!
    Help also required.
    Thanks, Jean-Jacques
    

    
    	  Well, late yesterday I called Cannondale (1-800-BIKE-USA). She
        suggested that a swap the seat (which I already had) and if that
        didn't work, pull the seat post, flip the bike over and spray a
        little light oil down the seat tube. I used Tri-Flow because I
        was afraid if any WD-40 made it into the bottom bracket it might
        break down the grease. After about a mile the noisy went away. I
        rode for about 25 miles and the noise didn't return.
          Her immediate response to my question made me feel that they've
        come accross this before.
    
        Brian

    The other day I took my steel bike out for a climb, and noticed
    a creaking noise when I was out of the saddle.  It sounded like
    my frame was broken, though it felt fine.  It turns out that two
    of the bolts that hold the chainrings onto the cranks were loose.
    
    MATT

    Another place where you can get creaking when you climb or shift is
    from the derailleur cables where they bend at the bottom bracket.  Some
    bikes have plastic pieces which pretty much eliminates the noise but
    most bikes just let the metal cables run over the metal of the frame.

	Well, this is a creaking/clinking problem, so I'll put it here...

	I get a clunking noise/feel at the pedal sometimes when cranking
	hard... Could this be the crank arm moving a bit on the shaft?
	Would tightening it up solve the problem? I don't want to tighten
	it up too much, since it's aluminum against steel. 

	btw, these are Shimano EXAGE400 cranks on a RockHopper

	Thanks
	/ken

    .9 sounds like a loose botom bracket.
    
    ed

     Don't worry about tightening the crank arm to the spindle. Stand
    on it if you want. If it's a decent set-up it'll take it with ease.
    
      Chip

�    Don't worry about tightening the crank arm to the spindle. Stand
�    on it if you want. If it's a decent set-up it'll take it with ease.

    This is ill advised, since a good crank does not need to be tightened
    by king kong to fit properly.  My only experience with loose cranks
    was that I had to replace the cranks, because no amount of tightening
    would make them stay tight.  On the other hand, the Campy SR and
    a Dura-Ace crank I have now have never been overtightened and have
    never had a hint of coming loose.

    There are notes elsewhere in this file about crank arms.

    As for rattling and creaking, I've seen had my handlebar stem, seatpost,
    frame mounted pump, and a rear mounted rack make noises due to being
    loose at one time or another (actually the stem still makes creaking
    noise sometimes - it's a Cinelli and they supposedy do that) - at times
    it was quite frustrating to try and find the real culprit.

    - Jim

    If the crank arm is loose it must be tightened, else the stress of
    worrying back and forth on the axle will cause it to eventually crack.
    
    If you overtighten it, that will cause it to break, too, someday when
    you are at the fartthest point from home on your longest trip of the
    year -- or at the valley between two incredible climbs with the only
    phones on the top of the mountains.
    
    ed

	RE: last few...


	I checked the bottom bracket... that seems to be snug. I suspect
	it's the crank arm... I'll tighten it a bit to see if the problem 
	goes away...

	Thanks
	/Ken

    Recently in rec.bicycles there was a debate about
    tightening cranks.

    Jobst Brandt pointed out that all cranks shift around
    a little.  You can tell this by the way that the paint wears
    off the spindle.  If you constantly tighten the bolt after
    each ride, you eventually split the crank.

    The consesus was that the proper way to torque the crank bolts
    is to loosen them first, then tighten them properly.



    One way to check if it's the cranks making the noise is this:
    1. Put the cranks in a horizontal position and stand on both
         of them with all your weight.
    2. Take your weight off the cranks, and backpedal 180 degrees.
    3. Put your weight back onto the cranks while listening for
         the creaking.

    -Jeff Bell

It also sounds like a loose or worn-out bottom bracket to me.  Unfortunately
it's usually not possible to just grab a crank with your hand and see if it's
loose.  If it's fairly new then it may just need to be adjusted (this is the
kind of thing that *I* would let a shop do, it only takes then about 2 minutes
and if you bought the bike there they will likely do it free).  If it's older
or has had a lot of tough use the spindal or races may be pitted.

My Dura-Ace BB wore out after about 2 1/2 years.  At first I thought it was the
freewheel since every once in a while it felt like the chain would slip.  And
whenever it did this it would make a "clunk" sound.  Felt like if you gently
pedal backwards and then give a quick snap forwards, you feel that sudden jolt
as the ratchet in the freewheel catches.

	Guess I should have mentioned that this is a new bike... Just
	over 100 miles on it... (although mostly offroad 8^) 

	So it's probably not the BB... I'll try out the crank bolts first...
	Although I oughta just take it in for its tune-up...
	

	/ken


	

     I think you'll find that most books will give a a torque rating of
    180+ lbs. Man, I can't imagine splitting the the thing by cranking
    down the bolt. Most of the tools won't allow a million lb. crank
    force anyway.
    
     One thing I will say. It IS NOT fun when you're out and a crank
    arm falls off. It happened to me in late winter with my MTB. Luckily
    I only had 7 miles to pedal home and luckily it was the left one!
    And, no matter what, if you have any play it's TOO loose.
    
     Son Of KONG :-) 

    I wouldn't rule out the BB, even if the bike's new.  It could have
    been assembled wrong (bearing missing, cups not straight).  At any
    rate, it sounds like the shop should be willing to help you out,
    if you've only put 100 miles on the bike.
    
    MATT

>.18  180+ ?  You mean 180 ft-lbs of torque?  For alloy on steel that would
destroy the crank given the leverage of the bolt threads.  Check Sutherland's
handbook for recommended torque.  

Also note that a loose BB can rapidly (in less than a day of riding) cause
the bottom bracket shell threads to strip, necessitating rethreading in a
different thread gauge, or replacement of the frame. Not a good thing to
do, neglecting your BB!

We had a guy in our shop who ruined a new frame in less than a week by
doing this - he had an INCREDIBLY destructive riding style, as we built
up his second frame paying close attention to the BB area, and he was well
on his way to ruining a second frame in a few more days!

                          ken

    RE .18
    
    I think he means 180in lbs of tourque.
    
    Dave

    Does that equate to 15 ft lbs?  I just rebuilt my bottom bracket and
    torqued the cranks to 15 ft lbs.  I'm just curious whether that is too
    little, too much, or just the right tightness.

	Well, I tried tightening up the crank arm a bit, and that
	did the trick. I hope this doesn't happen often or the crank
	will bottom out on the spindle from the hole widening out.
	Back in BMX days, lots of guys had problems with this. They
	always ended up stuffing washers under the bolt to get a little 
	more life out of the crank arms.


	thanks for the help
	/ken

All this talk about loose bottom brackets and cranks must have put the hex on
me. This past Friday I was starting my 30 mile commute home when I started to
hear a creaking from the BB area. I immediately started worrying about ruinning
my BB or crank. When I got home I took off the chain and spun the cranks. Yep
there was some noise coming from in there. I took it apart and found the
bearings where kind of dry on the fixed cup side of the axle. I guess I should
have repacked it this winter. Preventive maintenance is better than down time.

Tom

     I did mean tourque, not ft. lbs... Those were elephant feet tons!
    
     Moi

So it must be time for Bottom Bracket checking.   I did the same as -.2; spun 
my crank and it felt just a little rough.  So, I popped the crank off, took 
off the lock ring and tried to remove the inner plate (or what ever you call 
it).  It wouldn't budge.  It seams to be frozen in place.  I know this should 
just spin right off.  Help, is there a technique for un-freezing this?

>my crank and it felt just a little rough.  So, I popped the crank off, took 
>off the lock ring and tried to remove the inner plate (or what ever you call 
>it).  It wouldn't budge.  It seams to be frozen in place.  I know this should 
>just spin right off.  Help, is there a technique for un-freezing this?

FWIW, if you have the 'older' style BB that has a lock ring only on one side,
you should in gneral NOT try to remove the cup on the other side, which is
called a fixed cup for a good reason. Don't fool with it unless it definitely
needs replacement, or if it's definitely coming loose.

As for removing your adjustable cup (w/lockring) - are you using a pin tool?
Turning it the right direction? These are often reluctant to move, but NEVER
saw one that wouldn't come out with a pin tool + appropriate violence (do
be careful not to strip anything....)

                                      ken

   <<< Note 1509.28 by SUSHI::KMACDONALD "Hat floating? It's MUD SEASON!" >>>
                            -< got the right tool? >-


>As for removing your adjustable cup (w/lockring) - are you using a pin tool?
>Turning it the right direction? These are often reluctant to move, but NEVER
>saw one that wouldn't come out with a pin tool + appropriate violence (do
>be careful not to strip anything....)

>                                      ken

I'm using a pin tool (the type that looks like a oversized pair of tweezers).  

I am turning it ... make that attempting to turn it in a counter clockwise 
direction.  

I'm not messing around with the fixed cup.

The equipment is Dura Ace...circa 1987.

    Opps..... 
    RE: .28:
    This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. Why should
    one avoid removing the fixed cup? And if one does such a stupid
    thing (I'm not saying I did, but ahhh yea I have a friend who did,
    really I do). What kind of damage can you cause, or what kind of
    damage should you look for? I removed mine (Rather my friend did)
    and put it back together and have not had any problems yet? I hope.
    I am running with Ultrega (sp).
    
     

    Several years ago I tried removing my fixed cup, and really found it to
    be fixed.  The largest wrench I had wouldn't make it budge.  I know
    special tools are sold which makes it easier to remove (I believe the
    tool bolts onto the axle, and slips over the fixed cup to create a firm
    connection to the fixed cup).  Who knows what that amount of force
    might do to a bottom bracket.
    

    	It is not uncommon for some bike shops to install fixed cups
    with loctite.  The amount of force would depend on the color and
    amount of loctite, I guess.

    I have a Cannondale 1000 (the last "Clasic" frame they made) which I
    have had for about 3 years.  When I realy get cranking on it in a large
    gear, I also hear a sort of pinging noise that is syncronized with the
    rotation of the crank.  I have never associated this noise with the
    frame.  I have always associated it with the bottom bracket or crank. 
    It doesn't happen very often, and only when in my 52-12, so I havn't
    paid that much attention to it.
    
    Mark Ladue

>    This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. Why should
>    one avoid removing the fixed cup? And if one does such a stupid

It's not really bad, per se, but removing the fixed cup on a regular basis
(say, every year when you re-pack the BB) can tend to wear the BB threads 
and eventually cause the F.C. to want to loosen up while U ride. In general,
there's no reason other than replacement that you NEED to remove the FC,
so you shouldn't. You can easily clean and regrease the FC without taking
it out. Also, as noted before, they can be a bear to remove without THE TOOL
mentioned in a prev. note. The FC removal tools that your shop is likely
to have for sale aren't really much use, esp. if you value your knuckles
and the paint on your frame :-). THE TOOL went for about $80 in the early
70's, but, like every else, is probably much less now :-).
                                                     ken

    
    Since this note has gone from pinging frames to packing bottom
    brackets, MY FRIEND has a question. Why does the fixed cup (English)
    have a left-hand thread? I would think the clockwise motion of the
    right-hand crank would tend to back the cup out under severe
    conditions. Also, was it mentioned to the people in the previous
    replies that this cup does have a left-hand thread? I must've missed
    it.
    
    Brian

   re.35: Nope, exactly the opposite.  Italian bottom brackets are threaded
    clockwise on the fixed cup.  What happens if the cup's thread bind ever
    loosens is that, though the crank is turning clockwise the axle
    which is also turning clockwise causes teh bearings to turn counter
    clockwise which exert force to turn the fixed cup in a counter
    clockwise direction.  The result is a continuous unscrewing effort.
    When this happens on the road, the cup loosens so much that even if
    you get off and retighten it with your hand it is loose again in a
    quarter mile.  I have seen this happen twice.
    
    If this happens on an English bb, the cup just stays loose and
    the axle is wiggly but there is no continuous unscrewing.
    
    ed

      I just went through a weird experience. I thought my BB was making
     some noise (I own a C-DALE too). It worried me because the BB was
     brand  new. Come to find out it was my freewheel making the noise
    and it was a new Regina. A few drops of Phil's Tenacious and after
    a few miles it disappeared. It was very, very hard to tell where
    it was coming from...
    
      Chip

	Well, I'm having crank troubles with my RockHopper again. There's
	a really LOUD creaking noise when cranking hard... If I stand
	on it, then backpedal 180�, it creaks, so I'm positive it's the
	crank arm... 


	I guess I'll take it into the shop where I bought it... it should
	be covered since it's only 2 mos. old... 

	Is the only fix for this thing a new crank arm? I don't want to
	end up with another temporary fix...

	thanksAlot
	/ken

    Here's my two cents:
    My neighbor purchsed his Cannondale M700 in April/90. After a few weeks
    of city biking, he started hearing a creaking noise coming from the
    rear wheel. He went back to the bike shop to have a tune-up and to fix
    the creaking noise. All the mechanics who test rode the bike heard the same
    noise coming from the rear wheel area. They worked on the bike and
    couldn't find the source of the noise. The bike shop owner called
    Cannondale and explained the problem. Cannondale sent down a new frame. 
    The bike shop replaced the frame and all seemed well.
    
    Last week after a short ride, my neighbor told me the noise had come
    back..........
    To be continued..........

    	When an aluminum tube breaks from fatigue, it creaks for a while as
    the crack opens up and works. My aluminum seat on my recumbent creaked
    for months before I got around to looking closely at it and finding
    half the tube cracked thru. 
    	I gather that the manufacturers of aluminum tube bikes just assume
    that there will be some overstress/early failures and are resigned to
    replacing some frames. 
    	I wish someone would do a technical article on aluminum fatigue for
    Bicycling magazine [but I bet Cannondale/Trek/etc would howl!] and get
    the correct info out on this topic. 'Til then, read a textbook on metal
    fatigue.  - Chris

    Somehow the discussion over alumin(i)um fatigue failure has
    gotten split between note 1509 and 900.

    I'm pretty sure that they all use the alloy 6061 with a T6
    heat treating.  It's the same kind as used in blackburn racks.

    I'm not sure if there is a good reason for this, or if it's
    just because that's what Shawn Buckley used back in the early
    1970s,  Klien copied him, and then Cannondale copied Klien.

    I went to the LTN reading room and found a vol 1 of the
    "Metals Handbook".  Here's what it has to say about 6061-T6:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Composition:  1% Mg, .6%Si, .25%Cu, .25%Cr

 Typical Uses:
    Applications where good strength formability, weldability,
    and very good restance to corrosion are required.  Aircraft
    landing mats, pontoon boats, canoes, furniture, vacuum cleaner
    tubing, bridge railings, marine applications, welded assemblies,
    and transportation equipment are typical.

  Tensile Strength  45,000 psi
  Yield Strength    40,000 psi
  Shear Strength    30,000 psi
  Fatigue Strength  14,000 psi  (500 million cycles)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I imagine that bicycles fall into the category of
    "transportation equipment".

    There was a chart that plotted fatigue strength versus
    number of cycles.  It never completely leveled out, but it
    was getting pretty flat by the 10^6 cycles section.  After
    that it seemed to drop by about 10% for 10 times as many cycles.
    Most of the strength loss was in the 10^4 - 10^5 cycle range.

    Note that this strength loss, not stiffness loss.

    If we figure that one cycle is one pedal stroke, the cadence is 80
    and 13 miles per hour, it's (80*60)/13 or about 370 cycles per mile.

    If most of the loss happens in the first 10^6 cycles, that works
    out to 2,700 miles.  500 million cycles works out to 1.35 million miles.

    So... I guess that my conclusion is that if the bike gets past
    the first few thousand miles, it should be fine for the rest of
    our lifetimes.  It will fail eventually, but...

    There's no way to tell what the real stresses are on the metal of
    your bike.  That depends on how scratched the tube got when they
    were machining it.


    I looked in the Metals Handbook for info on CroMoly steels, but
    there wasn't any entry in the index under "Reynolds 531" (:-).
    This would be even more compolicated by the fact the lugs are there.


    Warning!!! I'm not a Mech E, so don't believe everything.
    I look forward to criticism from from those of you who know more.

    -Jeff Bell

    Thanks for the research and the inferences...
    I for one really enjoyed the data in your note.
    
    -j

	Hi, it's me again...

	The cranks on my Specialized RockHopper started creaking LOUD
	about 75 miles after I bought it... I took it back once and he
	retorqued it and sprayed some WD40 on the spindle... He said 
	this is a common problem and is caused by moisture getting in 
	between the spindle and crank arm. But it started creaking 10 
	miles after he "fixed" it... and the bike didn't get wet...

	Is this really a common problem? Anybody have this happen? 
	None of my friends had this happen. Retorquing the bolt does not 
	help for more than a few miles... Is there any fix short of 
	replacing the crank arm?

	thanks in advance
	/ken
	 

    Well, since this is the NOISY CANNONDALE FRAME note...
    
    I started getting a creaking synchronized with pedal rotation late last
    season on my 3-year-old ST600.  This spring I noticed that it was still
    there so I loosened, tightened, adjusted, and fiddled with all the
    standard things... Still creaked.
    
    Finally, I pulled the BB apart and replaced the axle and bearing set
    with new ones.  STILL creaked.  I tightened the cranks a little more.
    STILL CREAKED.  I decided I was crazy.
    
    Tuesday I was in a local shop and asked one of the managers about my
    noise and what else I should check...  Turned out he was a former
    Cannondale employee who came back to MPO to start a shop.  He took the
    bike out and rode about 100 feet.  Came back and said:
    
    Bottom bracket creak.  Can't be fixed.  Take it to your Cannondale
    dealer.  They'll call Cannondale AND GET YOU A NEW FRAME.  Needless to
    say I was skeptical of this (to put it MILDLY) but I called Now Sports
    and talked to the manager, and described what the bike was doing.  He
    had me bring in the frame so he could get the serial number and told me
    the new frame would be here in about 10 days...  He told me it isn't
    REALLY the BB, its the seat tube making the noise.  Didn't even want to
    ride the bike, just listened to my description and said they'd get a
    new frame!
    
    I called Cannondale and asked them about this problem.  They agreed
    that it wasn't the BB, they had a problem with some of the bikes where
    the "inner tube of the seat tube is too long and hits the BB housing
    causing the creaking noise"...
    
    From the lack of argument, need to go to war over this, and simplicity
    with which it was accomplished, I got to figure it was NOT the first
    time either the dealer or Cannondale has seen this problem...
    
    WE'LL SEE...  I'LL BELIEVE IT WHEN I HAVE THE NEW FRAME IN MY HANDS! 
    UNTIL THEN I FIGURE SOMETHING COULD EASILY GO WRONG!  Although, I did
    call be this morning and speak to the shop again.  Their only concern
    was that the new frame might be turqoise instead of red...  I can live
    with that!

Do you have to give the old frame back? Doesn't sound like there's anything
really wrong with it after all.


Rod

      I own one, my TT bike (4+yrs now). They're probably right. I had the
    same thing. It probably isn't (wasn't) the BB. The thing with aluminum
    is that sound travels in the frame. I had a problem with my freewheel
    once and it sounded like the BB creaking.
    
     I'm not sure what my problem was, but I finally pulled the seatpost,
    stem, cranks, brakes and freewheel. Then re-greased everything (the
    seatpost and stem liberally) and... Voila! No more noise.
    
     Of course, it would be impossible to know if a weld had a hair-line
    crack (unless you know someone who can "flux" it). Big breaks would be
    easily seen with the naked eye.
    
     In any event, good luck with the new frame.
    
         Chipp

    re .45:
    
    I'll probably have to turn in the frame.  I agree there is PROBABLY
    nothing structurally wrong with it, at least no cracks that are
    visible.  Of course, the noise makes you crazy after a while!!!  
    
    I still keep waiting for the phone call from the shop telling me they
    were just kidding and I'm screwed - call it paranoia but I just can't
    believe companies are this overwhelmingly concerned about their
    customers.  But, I've never heard a bad thing about Cannondale so
    perhaps they are!  Actually, if this flies I'll have had 2 experiences
    in the past few months that could be a model for how we might treat
    customers:
    
    1.  The Cannondale situation.  Call them, explain problem.  They have
    shop get serial number and send out a new frame...
    
    2.  I bought a Colorado Memory Systems tape drive for my PC.  I had a
    problem and called them.  The phone was answered immediately by a call
    screener (no being on hold). I was immediately put through to tech
    support (no being on hold and then being told I would have to wait for
    a return phone call).  They had me try several things and got my
    problem fixed.  Two weeks later THEY CALLED ME to see if the problem
    was satisfactorily solved.  I said yes but I was having a different
    problem.  We talked and they said "We're sending the new version of
    software.  Try that and it should take care of the problem.  If not
    please call and let us know."  2 days later the software arrived...
    
    Perhaps there is a lesson or us in these two situations (assuming
    C'dale comes through of course!)

    Re: Colorado Memory:  Yeah, they shipped me a new tape drive, oh
    this isn't "IBMPC"?
    
    Re: Cannondale.  not so promising, but i was complaining about
    a cancelled product.
    
    ed

     I had a friend a few years back who lost his C Dale when his house
    burned down.
    
     He brought the frame to Gamache's just as "novelty". When the C Dale
    sales rep saw it, he told George to let the guy know (my friend) that
    he'd give them the trade-in value toward a new frame.
    
     I thought that was pretty nice of him.
    
        Chip

    I have got the same noise and after a carefull inspection it
    turned out to be a broken frame on the right base just behind the BB.
    So watch for a cracked painting around the BB.
    By the way my CANNONDALE was a SM 1000 (1990), it just took 8 days
    to have the frame replaced free of any charge. Good service.
    
    - Henri -

    I carefully checked the current frame for cracks and such but don't see
    anything - doesn't mean it isn't there when stressed by my weight.  
    
    In any case, the new frame is in.  I picked it up, polished and waxed
    it, and tonight I"ll do the rebuild (probably at the bike shop).  It
    took longer because I got caught in the production cycle...  Cannondale
    production was in the middle of some other size or frame (I forget
    which they told me) and it took some extra time to get back to building
    my size/frame because they had already used all their M700s in my size.
    
    But, its beautiful - although all my red accessories are gonna clash!

    Last weekend on a ride I noticed a definite tendency to NOT want to let
    me turn the handlebars.  After fiddling with things I decided I'd
    managed to brinnel the headset races after only 2 months...  
    
    I stopped in at the shop and they agreed that it was badly "indexed".
    And, when we loosened the headset 1/16 of a turn there was significant
    movement of the fork which the folks at the shop said pointed to the
    POSSIBILITY that the top and bottom surfaces of the tube where the
    headset resides were not PERFECTLY parallel.  
    
    When we pulled off the Tange headset and looked at the bearing races
    they were a disaster...  BIG dents in both the crown race AND the inner
    lower race. In at least one case the dent in the inner race was large
    enough that it looked like a crater with the sides pushed up above the
    surface of the race.  Indexed indeed...
    
    They have the Campy milling tool so just to be on the safe side (since
    it was apart anyhow) we milled the tube and there was indeed a SMALL
    amount of uneven cutting on the bottom of the tube.  We're not talking
    about an 1/8 of an inch or anything, but there was enough that the tool
    visibly took a little off one side before hitting all the way around...
    
    Then we replaced the Tange with a Shimano Ultegra sealed headset.  Much
    nicer.  Very smooth.  Better than the Tange ever was.
    
    Yesterday I talked to one of the other shops where the owner builds
    bike up from frames, and also custom builds frames.  He said it is
    standard procedure to ALWAYS face the headset tube, bottom bracket
    faces, and chase the BB threads on every frame he builds up, whether
    his or from a mfr.  He said frames sometimes come in with very slight
    burrs or inaccurately milled surfaces.
    
    Anybody else ever had this experience?

    yep.  but on bottom brackets.  paint on the face of a bb can keep
    them from staying tight.
    
    ed

    Well, the bottom bracket faces didn't have any paint on them, but the
    surfaces of the tube where the headset goes (what the heck is this tube
    called anyway?) did have paint on the surface where the races
    bottomed...  Looked like the headset area was machined, the frame
    painted then the bottom bracket faced and threaded.  But, alls well
    now!  And, the Ultegra headset is smoother than the Tange ever was!

    "head tube"
    
    Frame prep usually includes, milling the head tube, bottom bracket
    and cleaning the thread, then cleaning the threads on all of the
    braze-ons and eyelets and the deraileur hanger.
    
    Some bikes arrive at the shop partly assembled and it's a rare
    mechanic who will disassemble it just to check quality.
    
    ed

    Well, its a little after the fact, but this one's been "prepped" now!
    
    New headset very nice!  And, while they had it they went ahead and
    pulled the BB and milled/cleaned/chased/fiddled with that too...  Don't
    think there was a problem there but its nice to have it done...

I regard headsets as consumable these days... A new one once a year doesn't 
cost too much and it does a lot for the bike's handling, such as allowing
you to ride no hands with no worries.


Rod

    >I regard headsets as consumable these days... A new one once a year
    >doesn't  cost too much and it does a lot for the bike's handling, such
    >as allowing you to ride no hands with no worries.
    
    Yeah, I reckon if the choices are a: carry the bike on the roof and
    occasionally have to replace a headset or b: carry the bike on the back
    and use it for a rear bumper - I'll replace the headset!  I've been
    tapped in the rear twice this year - both times my bike was on the
    roof.  Had it been on the trunk rack either time I'd have had a
    pretzel!
    
    The one I pulled out after 2 months though - the surface looks like the
    craters of the moon!  No more "cheap" headsets!  (although the 600
    headset in there now was cheaper than the Tange that died in 2 months!

One of the quickest ways to destroy even the best of headsets is to ride with 
them too tight.  This is a problem for me because I hate to feel any rattling 
there when I'm braking, particularly on the rough surfaces we have round 
here.

My approach is to set them a bit loose, ride a bit, tighten up a bit more, 
until I can feel just a small amount of play, and then put up with it.  My 
latest is a Campag Athena, which was about 50% more than a Stronglight X12 
and looks like lasting twice the time.  I adopt a similar procedure with all 
the bearings on the velo with the result that the veloes rattle a bit....

Just one more thing, the headset spanners are a good investment, but they are 
so long that you easily strip out the threads on the alloy fittings.

    I strongly recommend Stonglight roller bearing headsets.  :-)
    
    Has anyone ever used one and had a complaint about it?
    
    ed

The X12 mentioned in .59 is taper rollers, but it's a bit of a cowboy thing
with the rollers in a cage and harder metal cones over the alloy parts.  Mine
worked OK, but it wasn't very waterproof and it all went mouldy inside - I am
told the Shimano is better from this point of view but I didn't have a yen for
that so I bought the Athena, which looks fine.

PS I worked in a bearing factory and I know that rollers and taper rollers
need to be made and fitted with more care than the standard cup-and-cone. I'm
sure that a proper engineered and manufactured roller headset would last for
ever, but where's the fun in that for a component maker?