Conference noted::bicycle

    Knowing Shimano, they'll come out with ABS brakes next year.
    
    MATT

    I had Shimano 105 on my beater bike and they are garbage. I replaced
    them with 600 Ultegra which are decent brakes. They do a lot better
    job of braking in the rain then the 105's. On my good bike I have
    the Colbato brakeset. These have a very nice feel to them. The spring
    is a little stiffer requiring a slightly more effort to actuate. 
    
    The Delta brakeset in theory is better than the caliper style and
    they look nicer. but because of additional cost and weight not to
    mention that large flat front that can't be very aerodynamic just
    doesn't seem worth it.
    
    Paul
    

I use the cobalto brakes and like them very much.  I got the C-Record group
a couple of years ago before you needed to take out a mortgage to pay for it.
However, since campy now has the chorus and athena groups,  I would say go
with those (assuming you want to stick with campy).  The Delta brakes are
like alloy freewheels, there just not worth the expense unless your sponsor
is giving them to you.

abc

    What am I missing?  I'm new at this, and haven't tried a lot of
    different brake sets.  One of my bikes has Shimano Light Action
    brakes, the other has Shimano 600.  Both of these brakes stop the
    bike just fine.
    	What does a Cobalto, Delta, Dura-Ace, etc., etc. brake set do
    other than this?

    The most important thing for a brake to do (besides stop your
    bike) is to NEVER LOCK THE WHEEL UNEXPECTEDLY.  During road
    races, when you encounter a lot of panic situations, and find
    yourself subjecting the bike to extremes of deceleration, this
    attribute becomes crucial.  
    
    There are two approaches to the problem:
    
    o Build a brake that has a very progressive action, so it's
      less likely to make you skid.  Most expensive brakes are
      designed this way, like Dura Ace, Chorus, Ultegra, and the
      king of them all, Campy Delta.
    
    o Build a brake that responds the way that the "classic" brakes
      always have.  If you're an experienced racer, you instinctively
      know exactly how much force to dial in for every situation.
      Campy Cobalto, Super Record, Suntour Superbe Pro, and Modulo
      Master brakes fit this model.
    
    About half of the pro riders use Campy Delta brakes; the rest are
    divided.  Sean Kelley uses Cobalto brakes, when he could have his
    choice of Deltas; I expect that it's because he prefers to trust what
    he knows best. 

    The Chorus brakes are excellent -- it's worth noting that they
    sell for more than the Cobalto brakes here in Italy.  The Delta
    brakes are even better, but that's splitting hairs.  Both convert
    the most panic-stricken clutch at the levers into calm, concerted
    stopping power.  I don't know a lot about the Dura Ace brakes,
    but they also have a fine reputation.
    
    
    MATT

< Note 1165.4 by DEBUG::SCHULDT "Larry Schuldt - WA9TAH" >
                        -< Further explanation please? >-

You're not missing anything, except maybe spending far too much on equipment.  
Your experience matches mine; the Shimano brakes are fine.  I have both 105 
SLR and Ultegra SLR brakes, and the 105's are fine.  I think the Ultegra's are
better; descending a mountain in the rain earlier this year, when I was on the
brakes constantly, I always felt in total control of the bike. 

Kevin 

    re .-1 and .-2
    
    Thanks, Matt and Kevin.  I have noticed that the Light Action brakes
    grab a lot harder a lot faster making it real easy to lock up the
    rear wheel (I hardly ever use the front brake).  The Shimano 600
    brake set really requires a gorilla-grip on the brake levers to
    lock anything up.  I would have thought that that could be accomplished
    with a change in the brake pad formulation.  Anyway, thanks for
    answering my question.  I had no intention of starting a Campy-Shimano
    debate because I've never had a chance to ride a Campy-equipped
    bike.  Maybe I should order a Campy seat-post bolt just so I can
    have something Campy on my bike!
    

    You can always get Campy end caps for your handle bars. Their only
    $20.00 each 8-=!

    Naw, just order some clothing with the Campy logo and wear while
    not around your bike. That way no one will ever know.
                                                         
    
    A lot cheaper too!

    I have a Campy water bottle.
    
    They're even cheaper than the clothes.

    Brakes (getting back to the topic!!!) are only part of the
    braking issue.  You have keep your braking componentry in
    balance with the rest of the bike.  For example, as I've
    related elsewhere, with my aero seatpost, there are times
    when nothing short of the drogue chute and grappling hooks
    seem to help.  :-)
    
    (For more routine situations, the Cobalto do fine.)

    -john    

RE>> (I hardly ever use the front brake).  

Larry,

You should. When braking the weight tranfers to the front of the bike. This
makes the rear wheel loose alot of its traction. This will cause the rear wheel
to lock up and make the stopping distance longer. Good control of the front
brake is a must for stopping FAST. Practice panic stopping using both brakes, It
could save your skin. I did mine just last week on the way home from work. I
was motoring along and as I approached a four way intersection, the guy at the
stop pulled out to cross the street in front of me. I hit the brakes hard
shifted my weight back. I don't know how I did it but I rode on just my front
wheel for about 7 feet. I didn't skid or I would have wiped out. I do remember
starting to feel like I was going over the bars and letting up on the brake
just enough to keep from going over but not enough to let the back wheel down.
I do know that I stopped as fast as I could've and didn't get into an accident,
because I practiced. Something I learned while motorcycling.

Tom

    
    I just bought a Trek 520 with cantilever brakes.  They're rubbing
    against the front rim, which isn't really true.  Is there any
    secret to adjusting these things other than adjusting the cable
    length? 
    
    I need to know before I take this bike out on a long tour?
    
    Patrick

    Re .13
    
    Why don't you just true the wheel?

    How about some input on brake shoes ? Likes and dislikes ? 

    I like the Shimano sintered ones, the kind that cost about $10 for
    a pack of four.  They work really well in the rain, much better
    than the Modolo pads that came with my Modolo Speedy brakes.
    
    If you get these, be sure to clean out the crevices in them every
    so often with a blade screwdriver or the equivalent.  When they
    get clogged up, they don't work so well any more.

    I've been  very  satisfied with my Mathauser pads. They give a lot
    of braking which is fine with me as I often ride heavily loaded in
    the  rain.  I'm  not sure if they're as good for racing where more
    subtlety is called for.

--David

    
    	I've never found any brake pad to be better than the campy,
    which in my opinion, stops best in the rain.   Mathausers also
    work well, but both campys and mathausers tend to tear up
    your rims.   Every few months you might want to look at your
    brake pads and pluck out the metal fragments of rim metal that 
    have gotten embedded in the rubber.   The mathausers are worst
    for picking up metal fragments.    Recently I have been using
    shimano brake pads, and I have no complaints about them either.
    There appear to be many good brake pads on the market these
    days, there should be no problems finding ggod ones.
    
    					Alan.

>    		Every few months you might want to look at your
>    brake pads and pluck out the metal fragments of rim metal that 
>    have gotten embedded in the rubber.   
    
    I watched a pro mechanic on TV last night take a file to the
    brakepads as he was preparing a bike for a race.  This may not
    have been so much to clean them, as to rough them up a little --
    I wouldn't be surprised if they used new pads every time!  Still,
    it looked like an effective way to clean them.
    
    MATT

    I hope this is the right note to ask.......
    
    I have a ten year old Fuji Sport 10 with center pull brakes.  The
    problem is that the rear brake does not seem to be working effectively
    .............they don't apply enough pressure.
    
    The caliper is closing when the level is pulled and the pads seem
    to be in excellent shape.  However, no matter how hard I pull on
    the brakes (and they DON'T bottom out on the handle bar) the rear
    brake seems to only be applying light drag.  Almost all my braking
    is coming from the front brake.
    
    Any suggestions??
                                          

    You could try cleaning the rims.

    Also check to see if the brake pads have become shiny.
    If they have, then file or sand off the shiny layer.

    It might also help to switch the cable with a newly greased replacement.

    -Jeff

    re. .20:   If the quick clean up doesn't work (pad faces and rims), it
    is probably friction in the cables. You've then got two choices: remove
    or replace the inner cables, reinstalling them with lots of slippery
    stuff (grease, thick oil, [I use STP]). If there is corrosion, you may
    need to replace the outer cable housing too. The second choice is my
    preference: Replace the outer housing with one that has a teflon liner.
    These are essentially lifetime, no maintenence items - well worth the
    extra few $$.  Get a 25' roll and do all the cables on the bike. I use
    a bench grinder to get square ends on the housings and a countersink to
    flare the ends and clean up the liner debris. - Chris

re .20 -

also check that the brake assy. is working smoothly all by itself. If 
it's tightened up (elves, grime) you can probably improve things there. 
On the line of cables, check for smooth cable run, no kinks in housing, 
and if you have a bare exposed section across the top tube, you may wish 
to eliminate it by replacing with a continous cable housing & cable 
clips. I went as far as grinding off the braze-ons for my brake 
cable/top tube, but be aware that this is more work than it seems 
like!!!!

In general, I have to agree with the prev. replies that the pads seem 
like the no. 1 suspect.
                                 ken

As an update to my original note (.20), I have done the following:
    
    o cleaned rim with fine steel wool
    o replaced brake  pads
    o removed inner cable, apply white mol grease liberally and reinstall
    o reassemble and adjust pad clearances
    
    The problem that still remains is that upon pulling the lever, the
    brake do contact the rim, but you can continue to pull in on the
    lever until it bottoms.  It is very similar to  a  "spongy" brake
    feel on a car.  The front lever locks up nice and firm after only
    .5"  of pull.  
    
    Do these symptoms suggest a worn cable?  If I've adjusted the cable
    then why shouldn't everything be nice and tight.
    
    Thanks for all your help.  Though frustrated by this problem, I
    am enjoying  "wrenching" on the bike.
    
    Jonathan

>    The problem that still remains is that upon pulling the lever, the
>    brake do contact the rim, but you can continue to pull in on the
>    lever until it bottoms.  It is very similar to  a  "spongy" brake

Well. After the pads contact the rim, try to see if you can tell where the
additional 'slack' is coming from. Your most probably locations are a) cable
stretch and b) the brake mechanism. If the brake mechanism is loose, worn,
etc. you will see the arms of the mechanism continue to move as the brake
lever is pulled. A little bit is normal, a lot, is not. Compare to the front.
If the mechanism is not giving slack, it's probably the cable. If neither
of these seems to be the case, you may have some very obscure problem like
a cracked brake lever, etc. which is allowing flex into the system.
                         ken

    
    Again, make sure the brake assembly itself works smoothly,
    as suggested earlier.  If you manually squeeze the calipers
    together, do they snap back when you let go?  If not, a little
    WD-40 to the brake-axle (not the right term) may help.
    
    Also, check the cable housing.  Is the cable-housing seated firmly
    at both ends (into the brake lever, and into the brake)?  Compare
    the set-up and condition of the housing with that for the front brake.
    Is there a metal sleeve at each end of the housing?  
    
    Just some thoughts ... give 'em a try.
    
    -john

>    Also, check the cable housing.  Is the cable-housing seated firmly

On the line of cable housing, I've seen cases where the housing sort of 
"snaps to attention" when you squeeze the levers. If you get a significant
movement of the housing when you apply brakes, it seems to indiciate that
the housing is re-adjusting and adding slack to the system, and I'd consider
replacing the housing with brand-new heavy duty housing & cable at that point.
How's that for an obscure possibility?
                                        ken

    I had a similar problem that was the cable housing.  Remember that when
    you "stomp" the brake all that force gets transmitted down the cable
    AND housing.  The housing provides leverage via the frame/brake cable
    bosses to pull those calipers.  
    
    Remove the cable/housing from one of those bosses and try the brakes,
    you'll get the picture
    
    The more housing, the more chance of "spongy" feel, that's
    one reason most top line bikes use as little housing as possible.  
    
    bob

    I did a dir/title=brake and couldn't find what I need to know, so
    if this is covered elsewhere, just point me to the place.
    
    I have an inexpensive bike (Huffy 12-speed) that I ride occasionally 
    just for
    fun. I don't ride as often as I'd like to -especially early in the
    morning - because the brakes screech unbelievably. It doesn't make
    any difference if I use the front or rear brakes.
    Does anyone know what causes this and if there's anything I can do
    to silence them?
    
    Thanks,
    Kathy

>    morning - because the brakes screech unbelievably. It doesn't make
>    any difference if I use the front or rear brakes.
>    Does anyone know what causes this and if there's anything I can do
>    to silence them?
    
This can be caused by an assortment of things - starting with worn brake 
pads/old brake pads. Try getting new ones, they're not too much $$, 
maybe try just the front first (or whichever end is worst). Examine the 
rims for deposits of rubber, gunk, stuff, and whatever. If the rims 
aren't clean they tend to squeal. Unfort. I have never had much luck 
getting this stuff off. Finally, the brakes may be toed-in a bit. This 
may be done GENTLY PLEASE! by taking a small Crescent wrench and GENTLY 
twisting the brake mech. arms so that the leading edge of the brake pad 
hits the rim when the rear edge is just a hair bit off the rim (like < 1 
mm). This tends to quiet the brakes if everything else fails...
                               ken

    
    re: .29
    
         Many times this can be cured by simply adjusting the 
     brake pads. Unfortunately, I can't remember whether they
     should toe-in or toe-out (Help me out someone. Ken Mc.?).
     In any case, any decent bike shop should be able to help
     you with a minimum of expense.
    
                                              Steve
    
      (There are other things that can cause shrieking brakes
       such as old brake pads and foreign matter on the rims,
       but mis-adjustment seems to be common in my experience.)

    
    RE: .30,.31
    
        Never mind, he beat me to the punch.
    
        8^)         8^)        %^)
    
    
                                           Steve

     That's "toe-in" forward...
    
       Chip
    

    I recently  cleaned  my rims with rubbing alcohol and put on a new
    set  of  mathauser  brake  pads,  and  it's  amazing how much that
    helped.  I've  earlier  compared  mathauser brake pads to whatever
    came on the bike, and I'm sure that both changes helped immensely.

    To clean  the  rims, I removed the tire and tube, and scrubbed the
    rims   with   paper  towels  drenched  in  rubbing  alcohol.  It's
    relatively  quick  to  do,  and  the  change  in  braking power is
    remarkable.

--David

Now that I've gotten my derailleur working semi-
properly, I'm concentrating on the brakes. Both the
front and back set have a tendency to drag on one side
and scrape the rim. It doesn't seem to matter how much
or carefully I adjust them, they eventually work their
way back.

I have bent the return springs out to try to increase 
the pressure. I have tried taking apart and lubricating
the arms and pivots. I have tried adjusting the centring
with a hex key and spanner. These are again a set of 10
year old Shimano 600 brakes.

My next guess is that they are worn out and I need a 
new set. However, if I do that, they will be fitted to
a new frame too and the rest of the family is not yet
ready for that!

Thanks,
Tim

    
    I had a similar problem once and the solution eluded me for hours.
    It turned out that I had excessive cable housing between the brakes
    and the last top-tube cable guide.  The weight and tension in the 
    length of housing was enough to push down on the caliper (side pulls).
    You can check it out without clipping cables/housing by just feeding/
    sliding the excess amount of cable to the handle bar side.
    
    
     2
    r

    .36 is a good suggestion (I've suffered similarly in the past) but
    *both* brakes?
    I used to have a lot of problems like this Tim. I eventually discovered
    that the trick with those old sidepulls was not to overtighten the clamp
    nut - just hold the brake in the position you want it and tighten up
    the nut until it just grips. No more.
    
    Chris

     As a last resort, go with a Delta brakeset...
    
    
        Chip

    
    
    	Any recommendations for brake blocks? I find the standard block
    fitted to Uletgra very vague. They do fine to slow yourself down for a
    junction, but put any pressure on them (even for coming to halt), they
    lose their bite.
    
    	Campag's seasoned blocks used to be THE block. Are they still? What
    about Modolo, Weinnman, etc.
    
    Graham.

    I use Scott-Matheuser blocks; they work much better than Shimano
    Ultegra or Dura Ace (IMHO) - especially in the wet, and they last
    longer.  Not too expensive ($12 - $14 for four).  They are UGLY tho!
    
    Mark

    
    Delta's aztec shoes have worked well for me, although they do wear down
    fast on the MTB during mud season.  But, they do the job, mud or not.
    Cost is around $6.00 mail order per pair.

    
    Be careful with Aztecs.  I tend to have a "gorilla-touch" and have
    cracked the bolt-side (opposite the pad) on more than one pair.
    After you crack it, it is useless, because the pad-side takes a
    concave shape against the rim as you tighten the bolt.
    
    r�

    Just to interrupt the current conversation for a second (before I
    forget where this note is):

    Does anyone know how to center Dia-Compe 987 cantilever brakes?
    I've got them on my mountain bike and don't see a centering screw
    or anything.  Are they supposed to be self-centering?  (If they
    are, they're not working the way I'd like them to.  One brake pad
    is riding closer to the rim than the other.)

    Thanks,
    Sue

    
    
    Thanks for the pointers on brake pads. I'll try and find out if any of
    the ones mentioned are available this side of the pond.
    
    Sue,
    
       How well set up is your wheel? Is it pulled slightly or slightly
    buckled. Cantilever brakes should pretty well self centre.
    
    Graham.
    

Sue, you could try adjusting the straddle wire - that's an effective though
unsubtle way of centring cantilever brakes.


Rod

Graham, thanks I'll check my wheel and make sure it's not out of true.

Rod, ummm... which is the straddle wire?  The one that goes from one brake 
pad to the other? Do I just try tightening it?

Luckily, neither pad is actually rubbing on the rim, it just bothers me that one
is closer to the rim than the other.

Thanks again,
Sue

> ... which is the straddle wire?  The one that goes from one brake 
> pad to the other? Do I just try tightening it?

It actually goes from from one brake arm to the other.
Tightening it probably won't help.

Take the hook that connects the brake cable to the cross wire and
slide it along the cross wire.  Depending on where the hook is,
it will make one pad move faster than the other.

-Jeff Bell

    
    Oh.  I see.  I thought maybe the straddle wire was the cable
    running along the top-tube that you had to straddle when mounting
    the bike.
    
    Gosh, all this terminology just leaves me dizzy!
    
    -john

    Hey Everybody,
    Sue, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this (I just now stuck my
    nose into this note).  The brake arms are called the calipers.  To
    center your wheel or brakes, however you want to look at it, on the
    backside of your caliper(s) there is a 10mm nut.  On the front side
    there is a allan(sp) screw (not sure of the size 6mm??).  Get a 10mm
    wrench and a 6mm?? allan(sp) wrench and loosen both brake pads(sorry 1
    at a time).  Have your front or back wheel in the dropouts and tight,
    like you would for riding.  Now push both brake pads to the rim OOPS
    one at a time and just snug them down, we have another adjustment yet.
    Make sure that both posts on the back of the brakes are an equal distance 
    into the stud that goes through the caliper.  This is not crucial, but I
    am picky.  Also, depending on how wore each brake is, this may not be
    feasible.  After you have this accomplished start with either side,
    it's time for the real BEAR of a trick.  It is called toeing your brake
    pads.  Get a dime and loosen the nut again.  Place the dime between the
    rim and the back of the brake pad and tighten.  Careful, the brake pad
    may slip and slide all over the place.  Repeat on the otherside.  I
    always get so doggone frustrated because I loosen everything to much
    and it slips and slides on me.  Adjusting the brakes is very time
    consuming and takes a little patience.  Once you have all this back
    together, look on the side of the (I think right) caliper and there
    should be a little TINY allan(sp) screw.  Apply your brakes while
    standing next top the bike (a bunch of times and fairly easy).  Both
    calipers should move equally.  If not get the tiny allan(sp) wrench and
    turn that screw either way until both pads move equally.  Just play
    with, you will see a difference no matter which way you turn the screw. 
    OH BOY SORRY, when you are loosening the 10mm nut use the 6mm allan(sp)
    to hold the brake pad from turning.  I hope this makes sense and really
    doesn't confuse the heck out of you.  Well good luck!
                                                         Keep Pedallin'
                                                              Bob

    
    	RE-1
    		That procedure doesn't sound like the brakes on a MTB.
    Are you sure about it? I see two posts on the forks one on each leg
    then the cantilever goes on the post. It stays loose and is spring
    loaded.
    	RE: Sue
    		I was thinking the same thing and noticing one pad closer
    to the wheel rim. It seems that cleaning the spring will get the
    rebound action back.
    
    	Roger

    Hey Everybody,
    RE-1:
    Yes that is the procedure for mtb brakes.  I know the cantilevers as
    calipers.  It is hard for me to explain over the computer.  I know what
    I want to say I just can not write/type it to where it makes any sense. 
    Sorry!
          Keep Pedallin'
               Bob

Adjusting cantilever brakes is a horrible business. God knows why they're so
popular. Anyway, sorry for just throwing terminology around.

The straddle wire, as already pointed out, is the wire that connects the two
cantilever arms. The wire from your brake lever connects to the middle of
the straddle wire. The procedure of sliding the hook that connects the brake
wire to the straddle wire does indeed alter the balance between the brakes,
but in my experience the hook has a preferred place to sit on the straddle
wire and it pretty soon finds its way back there, and once again your brakes
are unbalanced.

My initial suggestion was to slightly alter the length of the straddle wire.
If you look at how it is connected to the cantilever arms, you'll probably
find that the way it is clamped to one of the cantilevers will allow
you to adjust the length of the straddle wire, by loosening a nut and then
sliding the wire slightly one way or the other (I hope this will make sense
when you look at your brakes!). You can do this to adjust the centring of
your brakes. The drawback is that it will also adjust the distance they sit
from the rim.

.49 is suggesting that you loosen the brake pad on each cantilever arm and
adjust the brakepad's distance from the rim that way. I'd be wary of this,
on my (Deore) brakes, the pad has no fewer than five degrees of freedom when
it's loose. Makes adjustment a nightmare.


Rod

Whew!  My head is spinning, reading all of this.

Rod: your explanation is clear.  My experience was also that if I moved the hook
that's in the middle of the straddle wire it would eventually just slide back to
where it was.  Also, I have tried pulling the straddle wire tighter, but as you
said, it succeeds in moving the pads closer to the rim but not neccessarily
centering them.

Bob: thanks for your valiant attempt to explain a very complicated process! %^)
I think if I attempt that, I'd better print out your note and have it in front
of me while I futz around!

The reason I was concerned about the adjustment of my brakes is sometimes when
I put the front wheel back on and tighten up the quick release, one of the pads
sits tightly on the rim.  So I loosen the QR, move the wheel a little, tighten
it again, and see if it's centered.  Eventually I get it so neither of the brake
pads are touching, but sometimes they're still not centered.  I was surprised 
at how much the wheel position changes when it's put back on the bike and was
worried that my problem was that my brakes were screwed up.  Maybe it's just 
that I'm not "seating" the wheel properly when I put it back on?  

Sue

    Good point.  Seating the wheel should be done independent of how
    it sits between the brake blocks.  When in doubt, it's the wheel
    that's right.  The wheel should be midway between the forks or
    chainstays, respectively.
    
    Some years ago, I oriented my front wheel to be between (misaligned)
    brake blocks, and the result was that some time later I had an
    off-center bald spot all the way around the tire.
    
    -j