Conference noted::bicycle

    Also, does/do anyone ride 3 speed bikes any more?  Do they even
    still sell them for adults?  How are they in price comparison? Who
    would be the type of person who would buy a 3-speed?  thanks!
    

    
    
    I own an 18 speed, but its because of the style of riding I do,
    touring.
    
    Usually long trips where I am carring some amount of weight.
    I need the lower gears to sustain my strenth for these trips.
    
    You will find most racing or sporting bikes with a lower number,
    12 or 14 gears (and a shorter chain stay).  Racing bikes dont need
    the depth because if you ever used those really low gears, you'd
    be going too slow to compete.
    
    Three speeds are right out, low budget bike.
    
    Rob

    
    	Having owned bikes of almost every gear configuration, I
    thought I'd give a try at answering some of your questions;
    
    3 speed bikes;   The gears are internal to the hub, and I
    	like mine for commuting.   I like this bike for wet conditions,
        since it seems the internal gearing works well in snow or rain.
        They're usually bought by people who are afraid of more complex 
        gearing, and are much cheaper on the average than racing style
        bikes.	  There's less maintenance, but rear wheel flats are
        harder to fix.     These are often good bikes to buy used, since
        they are solidly built and are rarely subjected to the same
        kind of abuse as racing bikes are.
    
    On the 10 speed vs 18 speed issue, I'd like to divide that question
    a little differently, and talk separately about double vs triple
    chainring sets, then deal with 5, 6 and 7 speed freewheels as another
    issue.    By combining you can get a 10, 12, 14, 15, 18 or 21 speeds.
    
    Double vs triple chainring sets;
    
    	The triple chainring set has one extra ring on the inside, which
    is smaller than the other two chainrings.   This allows for a lot
    of lower gears on the bike.    The low gears are an advantage for
    hauling weight (touring), steep hills, or for just being plain lazy.
    A real low gear is good for riding at walking speed, for holding
    conversations with joggers or going slow through crowds.
    
    	I will probably never buy another bike with only two chainrings.
    The third chainring is worth the extra price, even if you rarely
    use it.    I would certainly want a triple chainring set on any
    touring bike, where I would expect to be hauling packs.   I have
    never seen any real disadvantage for having the extra chainring.
    

        5, 6 & 7 cog freewheels;   (this is a complex subject!)
    
    	The more cogs you have, the closer together your gears are.
    For instance I might have a 13 - 24 freewheel in any of the
    three kinds.   The 13 is the high gear and the 24 is the low
    gear.   for a five speed I might pick;  13 15 18 21 24.   For
    a six speed;  13 15 17 19 21 24.   As you can see the shifts
    on the six speed are between gears that are closer together
    than on the five speed.     Having more gears to pick from
    allows the rider to pick a gear closer to their optimum pedal
    cadence.   The disadvantage is that you may spend more time
    hunting for that perfect gear.        
    
    	Some brands of six and seven speed freewheels also allow 
    for smaller cogs, like a 12 for instance, which would provide
    a higher high speed gear.   A smaller cog will wear out the
    chain quicker.   In general a 14 for the high gear will
    not cause excessive chain wear, but when you get into 13's and
    12's chain life drops off.
    
    	With freewheels, another consideration is the hub dimensions.
    The hub width may only allow for a certain size of freewheel.
    A rear wheel is dished, so that the spokes on the freewheel side
    are steeper than on the other side, and this makes the rear
    wheel a little weaker than a front wheel which is symmetrical.
    The more the wheel is dished the weaker it may potentially be.
    So, using a wider 6 or 7 speed freewheel will require more space,
    thus more dish on the wheel.    This is really the only significant
    disadvantage of having more cogs, in my opinion.   Most racers
    would go for the extra gear and don't worry about the slight
    possibility of breaking more spokes.   (note: when spokes break
    it's almost *always* on the freewheel side of the rear wheel, those
    same spokes which are put at a steeper angle when the wheel is
    dished!)   Another very slight disadvantage is that the 6 and 7 
    cog freewheels often use narrow chains and have the cogs closer 
    together, thus shifting can be less crisp, particulary when the 
    chain is dirty.   
    
    	Five speed freewheels are always wide spacing, seven speed 
    freewheels are narrow spacing, while six speed freewheels are 
    available in both wide and narrow.   Most ATB bikes with six 
    speed freewheels are coming with wide spacing, to allow for 
    easier shifting, although this requires more wheel dish.   Hubs
    generally come in two widths;  wider hubs can take a normal
    spacing six or a narrow spacing seven.   The ones with a shorter
    axel can take a normal spaced five or a narrow spaced six.
    ( Other hub widths exist though, like on tandem bikes, for instance,
    which are even wider than the standard seven speed hubs.  The
    extra width is often used to allow for symmetric spoking, so
    that the rear wheel can be undished like the front.)
    
    	In general I always go for more gears, with the highest high
    gear I can get and the lowest low gear I can get.   :-)   (My ATB
    currently is a 21 speed, with 48-36-24 in the front and
    12-14-16-19-23-28-34 in the rear.)   The capacity of the deraillure 
    is an issue when selecting gears, since many deraillures will limit
    the size of the large cog (low gear) on the freewheel.   Also
    the rear deraillure has to take up the slack chain, and the
    wider the gear range the more chain slack there is.   On my bike,
    I have exceeded the capacity of the deraillure, so I have to be
    very careful to never shift into the 48-34 gear, since there is
    not enough chain there for it.

						Alan.

    To me "10-speed" is a generic name.  I think the difference between the
    '10' and '18' depends on the type of riding and type of rider involved.  
    
    Everybody calls 'em 10 speeds but where do you find 10 speed bikes
    these days?  Department stores: Pretty cheap stuff, usually.  Even then
    they sell a lot of 12 speeds.
    
    A lot of older good bikes were 10 speeds.  Nowadays all the good bikes
    are 12 or 14 speeds.  When you get to usable gears, the 10sp usually
    had 8, the 12 has 10, the 14 might have 12.  When I bought my first
    bike back in 82, almost everything available was either 12 speed or
    15.  Nobody was putting triples on 6sp freewheels.  It did not take
    me or them long to revise that.  That 12 becams an 18. In 83 I bought
    an 18sp. and changed it to 21.
    
    So what's an 18 speed?  It's got a triple crank.  These can be had
    at an entry level price for only a few bucks more than a comparable
    double crank.  If you actually go into a bike shop and say "what kind
    of 10 speeds do you have?" I don't think you'll find many.  I think
    most dealers might have one or two but if they do they'll show you how
    much improved the [more expensive] 12 speed is.
    
    I think a rider just getting into the sport who might be a bit over
    the hill athletically, who is trying to not be a couch spud anymore,
    is likely to have good use for an 18.  The 18 will let him climb hills
    reasonably, especially here in New England, and get in shape.  If he
    then gets in shape and decides to tough out the hills a bit, he might
    be willing to forego his triple and get a high performance bike.
    
    Almost all of my 12 speeds cost more than my 18 speeds.  There's more
    to it than price.  I ride my 12's (most of which are really 14's) about
    20 times more than my 18's.
    
    ed

    Most of the responders touched on the common denominator. That
    being "what kind of riding are you intending to do?" 
    
    18 speeds are good for ATB's and (if you're packing for cross-country)
    touring. Otherwise, I really don't see a need to go the extra chain-
    ring. You can usually get the flexibility you need in the freewheel.
    
    Most un/semi/serious recreational cyclists can get by quite nicely
    with 12 speeds (I'm talking the average human here). In fact, if
    you ask how many of the gears are actually used, I'll bet the majority
    will respond something like 6-8 (if that many).
    
    It's very subject. I think many people opt for 18 because they "think"
    they'll need them all. If someone become "regular at the sport"
    (not fanatical) I'm sure they'll eventually admit to the fact that
    there's too much hardware. My opinion, of course. I consider myself
    a serious recreationalist. I'll do informal TT's and Citizen's races.
    12 speeds is more than enough. I think I use around 6-7 regularly
    (at the most). Why do I have 12? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Good question. 
    
    
    Chip

    Ok, this note is sounding too macho.  I know several riders who do
    between 2000 and 4000 miles a year who make good use of a triple.
    They do not particularly want to get out of the saddle on long hills,
    they do not want to strain all that hard, they want to enjoy themselves
    and the scenery.  The 15/18/21 speeds are for them.  (Of course, in
    "usable" gears, this is only about 10/12/15.)
    
    ed

    Please do not misinterpret the meaning. All I meant was that, like
    snowflakes, there are as many needs in the "gear" department. 
    
    I'm pro-any cycling. It's a great sport or ACTIVITY that ANYONE
    can participate in. Hell, on the road, track, path or woods, it'll
    always be tops in my book!

    I just felt that this was a case where a "silent majority" had not
    stated their opinions.
    
    I think the greatest thing about cycling is that almost anyone can
    do anything they want to as long as they have some realistic
    expectations.  And as we add a bit of technology here and there, more
    folks can enjoy it, too.
    
    ed

    I can't take it any longer.  This note is begining to take on the
    flavor of the "Tastes Great", "Less Filling" debate.  If your like
    me you'll probably buy a triple and then later on buy a performance
    double, but still ride the triple most, because like Ed stated
    earlier, there's hills in them there hills.  So my advice is not
    to limit your thinking to a single bike when you can easily and
    economically have several (I bought a Shogun 200 double in great shape
    but missing the back wheel for $7.00 at a Police Auction).  Then
    the urge to ride in the dirt sets in and its a whole new ball game
    all over again.  As -1 stated the important thing is to get out
    and do it by makeing an initial choice, knowing full well that if you 
    intend to pursue this sport seriously you will inevitably end up with 
    a complete stable of frames to choose from (In Ed's case several
    stables) regardless of your financial means, since bikes are so
    affordable (I'm talking about the low end used market here)  I 
    personally don't know any *serious* cyclist that uses one bike for all
    occasions.  I happen to own four, two doubles and two triples,
    not counting my wifes, kids or the one I have set up perminently
    on the wind trainer, and I've only been doing this seriously
    for about four years.  So start where you will, but sooner or
    later if you stick with it you'll own at least one of each.
    
    						Jerry
      

    I believe the original intent of this note was to gather the
    "looks good, tastes great" information from a cross section.
    
    I suppose the blame goes to the author. Controversy was bound
    to pop with the question asked. Maybe he can do a paper on 
    the subjectivity of avid cyclists and its root cause?
    
    Oh well, another 2 cents worth less than that.
    
    
    Chip

    The author would like to thank all of you for your help ... her
    take home mid-term had 1 question (17 points) that asked her to
    define (and then set) marketing strategies for 18-speed, 10-speed,
    and 3-speed bicycles.  She understands the differences in more detail
    than she had ever imagined ... and appreciates the advice, input,
    comments and even criticism she has received.
    thanks!

>        re .2 
>	 3 speed bikes;   The gears are internal to the hub, and I
>        They're usually bought by people who are afraid of more complex 
>        gearing,

	If only they had a look inside a three speed hub, then they'ed
 	realize how clean and simple a 10/12/15/18 speed is. 

>>	  3 speed bikes;   The gears are internal to the hub, and I
>>        They're usually bought by people who are afraid of more complex 
>>        gearing,

>	If only they had a look inside a three speed hub, then they'ed
> 	realize how clean and simple a 10/12/15/18 speed is.

    I think that the orignal noter meant "complexity of use".

    Three speeds have had indexed shifting since 1904.

    The design is cleaner, but the mechanism is not.  How often do
    you have to take up the toothbrush to clean the gears on a 3 speed?
    Every 10 years?

    I'm curious what people think about the premise implied in the
    basenote: Bicycle choices are a matter of marketing.
    I thought that we used what was required. (except for the Jersey Pros)

    -Jeff

    I agree with you, Jeff. There's nothing like having the "right
    tool" for the job at hand. Marketing may drive bicycle sales
    in limited categories/audience. Otherwise, it's gimme what I
    need.
    
    "Pass the McCullogh, I've got a sliver."

    1110.14> "it's gimme what I need."
    
    That is what true marketing is all about.
    
    For those in MBA school, a great study would be the analysis of
    the mountain bike, how and why it exploded.
    
    steve

re  < Note 1110.14 by WMOIS::C_GIROUARD >
>                          -< RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB >-

>    I agree with you, Jeff. There's nothing like having the "right
>    tool" for the job at hand. Marketing may drive bicycle sales
>    in limited categories/audience. Otherwise, it's gimme what I
>    need.
    
>    "Pass the McCullogh, I've got a sliver."


	Sure, tell me about Campy's up market groupos that people 
"Need"  for the job at hand.   What is it,  $350 for a set of brakes now ?
Oh, not only  Campy, try Shimano, Sun Tour, etc. too.   The only
people I can think of right now who still seem to make pretty good
stuff for reasonable prices is Simplex - but they are out of (US) 
fashion right now and they don't seem to have been keeping up with the 
clickety-click-shifty-stuff,  though races are still won in Europe by
people using their stuff.  Oh, add Huret for some good touring stuff.

	Reg	{a variable speed one speeder}

    Campy, Dura Ace, Mavic, etc... It's all good stuff and fits the
    purpose. "Pricey" - you bet. I'll always be the first to complain
    about gruppos and automobiles! The bottom line is IT IS quality
    stuff for SERIOUS sportsters. The cheaper stuff won't hold up to
    the miles cranked on and the replacement/repair cost might cause
    a wash over a couple of years anyway.
    
    I run a Chorus gruppo right now and hope to upgrade (a piece at
    a time) to C Record over the winter. I made my decisions by talking
    with people who have experience and doing research. I didn't get
    any ideas from TV. In fact, Campy is low key in the way advertising
    (I think). Pick up a cycling magazine. They advertise as much as
    the clothing outfits do.
    
    By no means am I a CAT I racer, nor I am a technical expert. I love
    my gruppo and like a million other people do not mind going the
    extra yard for what they feel is the best. The very worst feeling
    in the world is getting home with something that you've saved a
    few buck on and then hating it. Not for me. I'll save my nickels
    and dimes and wait before I'll sacrifice.
    
    These companies are tried and true. I don't hear any complaints,
    to speak of. I agree with you....are these pieces of alloy worth
    the price tag? Probably not. But, ye ole' saying goes, "it's the
    only game in town." You can either sit out or play.
    
    Wow! Did I go into a "lecture frenzy" or  what?  Sorry.
    
    By the way, I wouldn't mind a little support on this one from you
    other fanatics out there. I feel like I'm gonna get killed with
    this one!
    
    Chip

    RE: .-1
    
    We may be diverging a bit from the theme of this note... but
    ok, briefly, I don't think of myself as an equipment fanatic
    (haven't looked into aero spokes, for example, although I do
    have an aero seatpost now), but I am now running C-Record
    components, mostly, on my new bike, and SLX tubing - mostly
    because they function well over the long haul (that is, years
    of miles), and make each mile a bit more of a pleasure.
    
    It's amazing how seemingly small compromises in quality,
    durability, functioning start to loom large when you ride long
    or far enough.  Does that justify the price?  .-1 phrased it
    pretty well.
    
    -john

    "The very worst feeling in the world is getting home with something
    that you've saved a few buck on and then hating it."
    
    I think the worst feeling in the world is saving your money to buy
    something which is somehow touted as "the best" and finding that
    it just does not last or that the maintenance on it is so touchy
    that you cannot fix it yourself.
    
    Campy super record and C-record headsets are good exampes as far as
    I'm concerned, they become indexed too easily.  C-record shifters
    are another.  Campy indexed shifters don't have a good reputation
    though they might do in friction mode.
    
    I have a frame that won't accept a Dura-ace 7 speed shifter on
    the left side because the braze-on is about a thread short, so it
    has a Dura-Ace six speed shifter on the left and a 7 on the right
    (what's the difference it's only a front derailleur, you say?  one's
    Grey and the other's silver, that's what.  But using it mismatched
    is my personal satisfaction at being dissatissfied at the builder, I
    could never get a Campy drive train to work on the bike anyway.)
    
    I have only had one Campy hub ever get dirty.  It was my 50th anniv
    hub and only went 200 miles before it had to be overhauled.  Usually
    they are great hubs.
    
    No, there's stuff that works and stuff that doesn't but name alone
    does not imply quality.
    
    ed

    Please don't misinterpret my remarks about CAMPY either. One
    size will never fit all!. I went through the CAMPY index syndrome.
    

>    	Sure, tell me about Campy's up market groupos that people 
>"Need"  for the job at hand.   What is it,  $350 for a set of brakes now ?
>Oh, not only  Campy, try Shimano, Sun Tour, etc. too.   The only
>people I can think of right now who still seem to make pretty good
>stuff for reasonable prices is Simplex - but they are out of (US) 
 
    For most people, something less than the manufacturers top-of-the-line
    will serve adequetely. I think Shimano and Sun Tour do a good job of
    supplying components for this market. If you have to have the best in
    anything you're going to pay top $, no matter what it is. Try buying
    something like top quality darts - you'll pay an arm and a leg for what
    you get. Or buy some top notch tools like Snap-on - for my use
    something like Craftsman will do at 1/3 the price. There will always be
    a market for overpriced top quality stuff. Some of the price is quality
    driven, most of it is hype. You have to decide if you will go out on a
    limb and use something less fashionable. 
    
    On the subject of Simplex - I have some Simplex "Super LJ's" that I
    picked up a few years ago for use on my European but absolutely nothing
    Italian bike. The quality was top-notch. The price was reasonable, but
    only because I was "in the business" and bought them from a wholesaler
    who was going bankrupt. At retail, the prices were comparable to
    other top-notch non-Campy equipment.