T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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904.1 | Here we go again | CESARE::JOHNSON | Tutto sbagliato; tutto da rifare. | Mon Oct 24 1988 14:02 | 29 |
| >These would be for Time Trials, Tri's, Bi's and maybe a Crit. I
That's a pretty diverse set of needs; however it seems that your
emphasis is on the side of reduced wind resistance, rather than
absolute strength (you only say "maybe" a Crit). In your case,
I'd put together some TT wheels, and use the training wheels for
the Crits. I don't think you really want to mess with tubulars
yet; I use them exclusively, but I don't recommend them to most
others for cost and convenience reasons. (For most people, it
just isn't worth it.)
Why do I use tubulars? I think (expensive) tubulars are better, in
about the same way as silk boxer shorts are better -- they don't offer
any noticeable performance edge, but they sure feel nice. There's also
a "religious" aspect -- they're part of the culture of cycling. If
feeling nice is worth that much money and the time and effort of
dealing with glue, mending, and the like, then by all means.... But
not many people are crazy like me, just as not many people are prepared
to lay out $30 for a pair of underwear and then spend $2 every time
they need drycleaning.
There are also little advantages -- faster tire changes on the road,
for example. But these don't make or break the purchase unless
you're a road racer.
MATT
PS-- The analogy only goes so far. No, I don't have twenty pairs
of silk underwear....
|
904.2 | my experiences | USMRM5::MREID | | Mon Oct 24 1988 16:59 | 45 |
| I had the some racing wheels built at the beginning of the season;
they were: Araya ADX-4 aero rims, Superbe Pro hubs, Hoshi bladed
spokes, 32 spokes front & rear, radial front, radial one side on
rear & 2 cross other side.
I also use 150g Panaracer Ultima tires (18mm) on these wheels (rims
are 18.7mm).
I used the wheels for racing only, TTs, Triathlons, Road races,
and one Criterium. Here's my impressions (hindsight is 20-20 !):
I had a problem with the Hoshi bladed spokes breaking on the radial
side of the rear wheel. I hear this is a common problem with Hoshi;
when they break, they always break at the bend near the hub. I believe
you can stop the breaking spokes by filing the spoke end where it
hits the hub - good advice if you are building them, but impossible
if they are already built.
I felt the aero rims & 32 spokes provided all the strength I needed;
I biked over some NASTY roads & never had a problem with the wheels
coming out of true. I weigh 165 lbs. I'm definitely in favor of
aero rims for all types of racing.
The 150g tubular tires were the lightest I could find, and also
very narrow - a perfect match for the narrow rims. They do wear
out fast though; I went thru 5 tires this season ($32/ea), and remember
I only used them once per weekend!
The BEST thing I have to say about the wheels is the light weight
was fantastic!! I feel SO fast when I'm on these wheels since I
always train on my heavier clinchers.
I believe the lower rolling resistance (light narrow tires pumped
up to 130 PSI) and aerodynamics also added to the fast feel.
I retrospect I would not have gone radial on one side of the rear
wheel - I would have done 2 cross both sides. I also would consider
different bladed spokes, though Hoshi requires no slotting of hubs.
I really think it's the best $300 I've spent on my bike.
Go for it.
Mark
|
904.3 | 2 cents | TALOS4::JD | JD Doyle | Tue Oct 25 1988 09:14 | 20 |
|
Unless you are willing to spend big bucks like .2, then I'd pass.
I don't think the average entry level non-licensed guy can really
tell the difference. I had my bike built up with tubulars wheels
that could be called "light trainers". They're a waste of money.
I'll probably replace them with real wheels this year.
Aero rims can be very strong, don't be afraid of that. My brother
in law rides Rovals 18-front 24-back, and he's 6'5" 210. He's got
3 triathlon seasons (and alot of training) on them. One rim cracked
at the seam, but the wheel did not fail. He lives in Florida, so
he doesn't have potholes and climbing to deal with as much as us
northerners.
The bottom line is cash. If you're the type of guy that is going
to freak when his $30-45 tires flats, then pass on it. If you're
going to "skimp" on wheels and tires, you might as well go with
clinchers, and get more for you money.
JD
|
904.4 | check out note 51 | IAMOK::WESTER | | Tue Oct 25 1988 19:07 | 13 |
| There are some great notes written in the conference about this
subject (do a DIR/TITLE="WHEELS" OR "TUBULARS",ETC.). Note 51,in
particular, goes into detail on TT wheels.
If you want some good humor/advice (about the tubular experience)
check out note 170. Matt Johnson's notes are always good for a laugh,
but that one is really funny!
As I was reading some older notes in here I noticed they were full
of good stuff. If you ever need advice, first do a DIR/TITLE=.
The answer may already be there.
Dave
|
904.5 | Which brands and set up worked well for you? | IAMOK::WESTER | | Tue Oct 25 1988 19:31 | 23 |
| I also plan on getting a new set of tubular wheels. Racing (80%
of use) and training (TT's) is the reason. I plan to build them this
winter with a friend who's done this many times.
I'm looking for recommendations on brand names and set up. I've
only ridden clinchers to this point, so it's all new. At 160 lbs.
I'm sure I can use 32 hole rims with double butted spokes. Is it
worthwhile to get aero rims (Matrix Iso's?) for a mostly road racing
and crit wheel (TT's only when necessary!)? How light can I go
on rim weight(and how many spokes)?
Any impressions on Mavic versus Campy or Wolber? I want something
lightweight, but doesn't need to be trued constantly.
Finally, does anyone in the area (eastern Mass.) have any old or
unneeded tubular rims I could have (or buy) for aging and
prestretching new tubulars?
After the Hell I went through with my Nashbar high performance clincher
wheel set, I opted to return them and go tubular instead. I'll
train on clinchers but race on the tubs.
Dave
|
904.6 | | MEMORY::GOODWIN | He's Tanned, He's Rested, He's Ready, NIXON 88 | Wed Oct 26 1988 10:16 | 22 |
| RE: .3
Last summer when I put tubulars on my bike there was quite a difference.
I got a pair of built wheels from Bike Trashbar. This I would not
reccomend for anyone who does not have experience building wheels.
After the first mile I rode them they looked like pringles.
After having the local bike shop straighten them out for me they
have been great. I replaced the cheap Panaracer 280 tires that came
with the wheel set to Wolber SP1 Pros. What a difference a tire
can make.
I now have a new set of wheels That I'll save for racing. These
are Campy C-record hubs, Super Champion rims and Wolber Neo Pro
tires. They are lighter and roll better than the Shimano 600 araya
combo on the trashbar wheels.
I am sold on Tubulars and use them for training, TT's, and Tris
However, it makes me sick to think about replacing the SP1 Pro($40)
on the front because of a slow leak or unsewing, patching, resewing
and remounting the tire.
Paul
|
904.7 | a stitch in time saves $27 | USMRM2::PJOHNSON | | Wed Oct 26 1988 13:35 | 15 |
| Wolber PRO SP1's are about $27 in the Nashbar catalogue. I used
to ride with them but I had several flats and have been told by
a few different sources that they are lousy tires. They feel good
but I question their durability. Maybe I've just had bad luck.
As to repairing tubulars, it's not as bad as it first appears.
I tried to patch one and it came out much fatter around the patch.
After several flats (i.e. $200 worth) this summer I decided to give
it another try. It now takes me about 45 min. to patch a tubular, but
I think I've mastered it.
By the way, I switched to clinchers for training. For me and my
wallet, it's much more practical for training and commuting to work.
Phil
|
904.8 | TUBULAR WHEELS FOR SALE | USAVAX::DRIVETTS | | Thu Oct 27 1988 09:32 | 7 |
| I have a pair of tubular wheels that have about 5 miles on them.
They are Mavic CL 330 heat treated rims, Suntour sprint Sealed hubs,
DT spokes, I can't remember if they are 15ga spokes with 14ga on
the freewheel side. I'll sell the pair with 2 UST tubular tires,
and the NW freewheel for $100.
Dave
|
904.9 | Another fanatic heard from | SMURF::BINDER | A complicated and secret quotidian existence | Thu Oct 27 1988 13:01 | 30 |
| I've had tubulars on my bikes since I first rode a pair on a friend's
Raleigh International back along about '77 or so. Except for a used
pair of Fiamme Red Labels on Campy Nuovo Tipos that I stole from a
friend for $30 to put on my commuting bike, I've never bought a pair of
wheels and never will - building my own is what works for me. On my
good bike I currently have 36-hole Super Champ Championnat du Monde rims
with DT double butted spokes on Avocet Mod II sealed hubs. For newer
cyclists, this rig is old stuff - I built these wheels in '80, and I
finally got around to retruing them late this summer.
For tires I went through a phase using Wolber 270s - then I found
National (once labeled Cycle Pro, presently called Panaracer) at
Crashbar, and I've been using their nylon 230s ever since. They're not
as nice as Continental silks, or even Vittoria cotton, but they're only
$27 a shot, and they are a great deal better than any clincher I ever
rode. I weigh only 141-144 pounds, depending on what I ate yesterday,
and I can get away with using light tires like this for daytripping (I'm
not a racer). Most men shouldn't try it. On my commuting bike I have
Swallow 300s. These tires are pretty lousy, but they're also only $11
each - and they're still better than most clinchers.
I can't imagine the circumstances that could convince me to go back to
clinchers. After having said which, I don't encourage anyone to switch
to tubs. You make the choice, you get the hassle. Tubulars *are* a
pain - as others have said, gluing and fixing are trouble in spades.
But it's worth it to me. I can't stress enough, though, that if you do
take the plunge, you should learn to patch your own tires. Pitching a
$27 tire for one small puncture is more than I can bring myself to do.
- Dick
|
904.10 | They're great. Really! | USWAV7::CLELAND | | Fri Oct 28 1988 16:48 | 35 |
|
The other replies on this note are much more informed than the
rather small amount of advice that I can offer, but...
I've been riding tubulars since 1978 (I graduated high school
in 1979), and I've been using these little devices known as-
tire savers.
I've ridden in RAGBRAI four times, (only one crash in all), and
this year alone I'm heading towards the 3,000 mile mark. As far
as I can remember, I've had approximately 8 flats, which means
less than one flat/year. I always carry a spare tire, and some
glue (wrapped in a baggie) with me, so the few times that I
couldn't even have prayed for a ride into the next town, have
not fazed me one bit. The only time I got worried was when the
spare was mounted, and I realized that a second flat in one day
would have allowed me to walk the 20 miles into the next town.
(I hate having to ride the sag wagons!)
My point is, I just like to ride the bike, all over the place,
and in ten years, (using tire-savers) I've had less than ten
flats. Campagnolo Record road hubs, and Fiamme Red labels are
what I'm using, but I don't think that really matters much.
(Yeah, I'm riding museum-like wheels).
What does matter is where you ride, how you ride, how much
you weigh, (over 250 lbs.?), and the state of your head. I
just want to get out and pedal, I don't race, and using the
tubulars hasn't given me any problems. BUT, I wouldn't suggest
loading the wheels down with panniers, water bottles & handle-
bar packs!
OH! I'm sorry, yeah the ride is MUCH better than 27 x 1-1/4's!!
Face.
|
904.11 | Flats, spares, and glue | SMURF::BINDER | A complicated and secret quotidian existence | Mon Oct 31 1988 12:54 | 34 |
| Re: .10
> I've been riding tubulars since 1978 (I graduated high school in
> 1979), and I've been using these little devices known as tire savers.
I've been riding tubulars that long - see .9 - and haven't used tire
savers. I rode a bike that had them once. I repeat, ONCE. They were
noisy, with their little HUMMMMM against the tire surface. I then
talked to the guy at whose shop I was doing business - he was a former
race, from italy - and he said don't bother, they don't do much good,
and they aren't worth the annoyance.
I'm also under the one-flat-per-year average. What I do is instinctive
now, but I flatted four or five times very early on until I learned to
watch for glass on the road ahead. When I sense that I might have hit
something ugly, I reach down and use the palm of my glove to wipe the
tire surface. (Do this in front of the fork on the front, and between
the seatstays and the chainstays on the rear.) Using 230-gram tires, I
have not had a flat since '82, unless I count the 8-year-old valve stem
that just last month gave up overnight and was flat in the morning.
(Usually I don't leave my tires inflated overnight - this one must have
decided to teach me a lesson!)
I also carry a spare. In fact, I carry two on road rides - only one
when I'm commuting. But I don't carry glue. It's a waste of time on a
roadside repair, given that it takes 15 minutes to get tacky, and it can
be very dangerous. It takes hours to set completely. If you take a
corner a little hard on unset glue, the glue can act as a lubricant and
slip-slide, actually helping the tire to roll off the rim. Better to
rely on the stickiness of the previous layer of glue, and glue the fresh
tire on after you get home. Trust me - I've never had a replacement
tire roll off unglued.
- Dick
|
904.12 | Hot & cold glue? | USWAV8::CLELAND | | Thu Nov 03 1988 12:18 | 39 |
|
That's interesting, learn something every day, as they say...
One question comes to mind, what about the environment in which
the spare is mounted? Such as, I ride year round, and have had
to install spares in all temperatures, from almost near zero,
fahrenheit, (February in Maynard) to almost 100 degrees (in -
late July out in the boonies of Iowa). The cold mount was several
years ago, but I don't seem to remember the tackiness that is
usually associated with rim cement. In fact my fingers were
almost dead numb, and the old glue still on the rim was as good
as ice. Also, I guess since I don't race, I've always taken
advantage of the flat tire. By just goofing off and taking my
time, I seem to be able to give the cement at least a half-hour
before even standing the bike back up.
But I do remember mounting the spare in Iowa, and the glue
was almost soupy. So much so that no glue was needed for the
spare. I was even worried about the tire rolling off the rim,
even without using more glue!
I've read several sources about using one's riding gloves
for cleaning tires en route, and the only problem I've found
is, that I don't always wear gloves! In fact I don't always
wear riding shorts either! I rode across Iowa in 1986 wearing
cut-off jean shorts, and alot of people told me I was crazy!
But I guess I'm just a little weird, which is why I like to
use tire-savers, even with the slight whining sound created
by the metal to tire contact. I guess I'm just too spacy on
the bike, and can't always watch the road for that inevitable
pile of glass that WILL torture my Wolber's without mercy.
But I did say that I couldn't offer the same level of
knowledge and/or data that the other respondees to this note
can offer! I'm just another idiot having a good time, using
whatever means I can to get some excercise, and some fresh air!
And I do like those tubulars, they DO roll so much nicer!
|
904.13 | A solution at your fingertips! | SUSHI::KMACDONALD | loose chips sink mips | Thu Nov 03 1988 13:00 | 11 |
| > I've read several sources about using one's riding gloves
> for cleaning tires en route, and the only problem I've found
> is, that I don't always wear gloves! In fact I don't always
That's easy, use your fingers! (You always have THEM with ya, I hope!).
I prefer fingers even when I'm wearing gloves - then it's real easy to
tell when the offending piece of whatever is gone; often it may take a
couple of revs of the wheel to be brushed off. This helps on both
tubular and clincher wheels, BTW.
ken
|
904.14 | cut-risk | ATLAST::ELLIS | John Lee Ellis - assembly required | Thu Nov 03 1988 15:00 | 11 |
|
RE: .-1
> That's easy, always use your fingers!
That's my method. Of course, last summer I got a nice (minor)
glass-cut on my index-finger that way... but the tire was spared
a flat. I'd always suspected that this method might someday
give you a finger-cut... sure enough.
-john
|
904.15 | Fingers? That's great! | USWAV7::CLELAND | Speed is the essence of mayhem... | Fri Nov 04 1988 15:40 | 31 |
|
RE .13
You guys are great! Geez, here I am riding around in jean
shorts, with no gloves on, and not even able to think about
using my fingers! Boy what a dummy I am! I guess I'm not that
weird though, since I was too afraid to slice my fingers off!
Or even worse, wipe out while reaching down for the tire!
(I wiped out in Iowa this year on RAGBRAI. I was only 13 miles
outside of Carroll, IA, and was blown down by a pace-line that
made no attempt to announce themselves, while I was of course
getting a natural high on all the scenery)
One question, I've read that an individual should wrap
their thumb around the seat-stay for bracing purposes while
gently lowering their palm to the tire. Do you use any sort
of bracing for cleaning the front tire? (Since I'm a scenery
buff, and a space cadet on the bike, I'll stick with the old
tire-savers) Is this an obvious no-no while riding in a pace-
line? (For you race officianados) Any other instances when
logical caution should requisite preparatory actions prior
to the ol' reach-n-scrape?
This is rather interesting discussion, I thought I was
the only nut on wheels! (Tubulars, as usual)
Face.
Now you know why they
call me face, it's all
scraped up!
|
904.16 | more about digital tire-savers :-) | SUSHI::KMACDONALD | loose chips sink mips | Fri Nov 04 1988 15:56 | 16 |
| > One question, I've read that an individual should wrap
> their thumb around the seat-stay for bracing purposes while
> gently lowering their palm to the tire. Do you use any sort
> of bracing for cleaning the front tire? (Since I'm a scenery
I guess when i do a back tire, i sorta start by snaking my hand behind
the seat stay with the back of my hand touching the stay for a
reference, then slowly (relatively) slide down til the fingers touch the
tyre. Palms? Not for me, they're much more sensitive than my fingertips.
On the front, just lower the fingers gently onto the tire. I can
maintain pretty much the same cadence whilst cleaning either tire, and
watching the road, altho I sure wouldn't recommend doing it in a real
tight pack until you've practiced it a LOT!!!!! In my racing days I
never had to ride with a pack much, since I was often off the back
(common) or off the front (after a false start :-) ).
ken
|
904.17 | New Tub's | MCIS2::DELORIEA | | Mon Nov 07 1988 16:27 | 21 |
| I ended up getting a used tubular wheel set. Dura Ace Cassette hub
32 hole with Freewheel, Mavic Aero rims and DT spokes, radial front
with two cross on back. They were used only five times and showed
no signs of wear on the anodization or grit on the hubs. They looked
like he never even used them five times. So I bought them for $150
and he sold me two new tires for $25 a piece and glued them on.
This was just what I was going to get, only with a cheaper hub set. I
couldn't afford Dura Ace. I think I lucked out.
I pumped them up to 125 psi and took them for a ride yesterday.
WOW!!! What a difference, I thought I was riding an aluminum frame.
Alot of road shock is gone, they are faster and lighter. I'll still
use my clicher set for bombing back and forth to work, but I'm hooked.
Yes, they are worth it.
Tom
P.S. Is there anyone in the MRO area that wants to show me how to
change a tubular? I might need to know:-) I'll do the work,
I'd just like someone there to give me a couple of hints as
I do it.
|
904.18 | Gluing tubulars | SMURF::BINDER | And the quarterback is *toast*! | Tue Nov 08 1988 11:09 | 75 |
| Re. 17
> P.S. Is there anyone in the MRO area that wants to show me how to
> change a tubular? I might need to know:-) I'll do the work,
> I'd just like someone there to give me a couple of hints as
> I do it.
Changing tubs is easy. Take the tire from your hand and change it to
your bike shop mechanic's. :-)
Actually, it *is* reasonably easy. Assuming a tire-less wheel and a
fresh tire, do this:
*** CAUTION ***
Do not mount tubular tires in a room with a rug on the floor. Do
it in the kitchen, the garage, or the workshop.
1. Apply a thin coat of glue to the rim, and another to the tire. The
standard tube of glue is good for two wheels, so judge amounts
accordingly. Applying the glue to a wheel is easiest if you put
the wheel in a truing stand. Applying it to a tire is easiest if
you turn the tire inside out and hang it from one hand while you
apply the glue with the other. Pause every few inches (on both
surfaces) to spread the glue out with a finger.
2. Hang the tire over a chair back, and let things sit 15 minutes. The
glue will get *very* tacky.
3. With the tire still inside out, drape it from your hand. Make it be
a figure-8, and catch the bottom with your knee. Slide the top onto
your shoulder, and give the tire a *good* stretch. If you don't do
this, you'll never get it on the wheel.
As an aside note, you should track down a couple of old rims for use
as tire stretchers. Buy tires ahead, and keep some mounted on the
stretchers - without glue!
4. Turn the tire right side out and start mounting at the valve stem.
Place the tire on the rim as evenly as you can, moving toward the
opposite side. When you get to the far side, roll the tire slightly
inside-out again, clamp the mounted parts as firmly as you can with
your knees, and lever the rest up over the edge of the rim, pushing
with your thumbs. This is *not* easy - the best possible tool to
use is a friend who can clamp while you lever.
I guarantee that the tire will slip free the first time you do this.
Start back where it slipped from, and put it on again. Repeat until
you get it all the way on. With experience, you will learn how to
minimize the pain.
5. Once the tire is all the way on the rim, inflate it enough that it
will hold its proper shape - not all the way hard. Now work all the
way around, sliding parts of the tire sideways on the rim so that
the same amount of rim tape shows on both sides. Make it as even as
you possibly can within the bounds of reasonable time.
6. Use a solvent to clean the excess glue off the braking surfaces of
the wheel. There are commercial rim-cleaning solvents that won't eat
your tires. Be careful not to let the solvent get between the tire
and rim, or you'll blow your gluing job.
Do not strive for absolute pristine cleanliness - it is enough that
the brake shoes won't drag through glue. Those gorgeous advertising
photos you see of pretty new racing bikes have got the tires mounted
without glue.
7. Use some more of the solvent to clean your hands.
8. Inflate the tire a little more and let the assembly sit overnight.
Good luck. This is an art that you will learn with practice - just hope
you don't get too much practice!
- Dick
|
904.19 | five if you have that many | MENTOR::REG | a little risc averse | Wed Nov 09 1988 10:37 | 7 |
| re .18 You left out the 0. step, which is
First, shave your forearms !
|
904.20 | Don't bother...\ | SMURF::BINDER | And the quarterback is *toast*! | Wed Nov 09 1988 21:04 | 5 |
| Re: .19
> First, shave your forearms !
Nah. After you've mounted the first tire, you won't have to...
|