Conference noted::bicycle

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Note 5.59                      Who's who with what                      59 of 60
GRUNT::KLASMAN                                       11 lines  28-APR-1987 18:27
                           -< Avocet Gel-flex seats >-
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I have a VETTA Corsa helmet, that is light, cool and meets the current 
standards.  It goes for around $40, I think.  Avocet now makes Gel-flex seats 
that contain the same Spenco gel that the seat pads contain.  You don't get as 
much padding, but I think its plenty.  I had a seat pad but didn't really like 
it.  They break down pretty quickly and you lose a lot of feel of the bike 
with them.  I like the new seats better, and I've always had some complaints 
in the 'tender toosh' department.  The seats come in racing, and men's AND 
women's touring styles.

Kevin     

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Note 5.60                      Who's who with what                      60 of 60
ISWSW::DOOLITTAN "Primitive but effective"           13 lines  29-APR-1987 13:31
                           -< Check + for Gel-Flex >-
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        Re: .-1
        
        I have the same helmet - it's real comfortable (and electronic
        yellow that people can *see* for miles!!).  I also have
        the Avocet Gel-Flex saddle - recommend it *highly*.  I
        have been known to not walk (or sit or ...) for days after
        a long ride - GF seat fixed all that.  I got the men's
        model at Palo Alto Bicycle Shop (*not* a discount house!!
        8-]) for about $30.
        
        Keep on pedalin'
        
        andy

    	Thanks, friends! I'll let you know from a standing position what
    the story is after my first of the season hakedown cruise. I was
    only on the bike for 2 minutes last Sat. and I was psyched for a
    long trek! 
    
    	The Avocet saddle I have was bought 4 years ago. I don't know
    if it has the Gel-flex material or not. I'll ask at the shop that
    it's being tuned up. Also, I'm going to learn how to do the tune-ups
    myself this season!

    	I have an old Avocet Touring II which I purchased a spenco pad
    for.  The Touring II is fine for 20 to 40 miles rides but I use
    the Spenco whenever I plan to do long distance touring.  Because
    of my contentment with both the Avocet Saddle and the Spenco pad
    I recently purchased an Avocet Gel-Flex for my new bike.  So far
    it appears to be the best of both worlds.  Re. an economical helmet,
    If you act quickly, NASHBAR has a telephone special going on for
    there old BELL touring model.  It looks identical to the TOURLITE
    without the blue decals and has a different strap that is a little
    more difficult to release but at $20.00 its half the price and its
    got to be safe because it caffies the SNELL rating in addition to
    the regular ones.
    						Jerry
    

    	Where's NASHBAR? 

>    	Where's NASHBAR? 

	It's on Simon Rd.  Take 128 to 90 west to 84/86 south to 80 west to
	680 north to Ohio Rt 224 (follow the signs for Poland) to South Ave
	north to Midlothian.  Turn left, and take the next left onto Simon.
	It's on the left, second block down, past the WHOT studios.  From
	eastern Mass it's just a half day's drive (12 hours).  Call the day
	before so that they can have the order ready.

	But seriously folks,

	It's easier to call them at 1-800-345-BIKE.

Just had to add a comment here on saddles.  A well broken in leather saddle
is very comfortable, because it stretches to match your personal tush.  I
tried a Spenco saddle pad, about two years ok, to help getting used to the
leather saddle after a winter of not riding.  I only used it a few days, as
it shifted around, and never used it again.  My wife now uses it over her
Avocet Womens saddle that dates from before 1980.  Brooks is supposed to be
selling broken-in leather models now.  I have never broken a saddle in, as
mine came on the used bike I continue to ride.  Riding the saddle while it
is soaking wet is supposed to work.  My work bike has an Avocet saddle, and
the leather one is slightly more comfortable. 

Thanks,
Del 

    	I was wondering just how important it is for a woman to 
    have a woman's saddle.  Does it make that much differnece?
    
    Thanks,
    Shannon

    RE: .-1 (women's saddles for women)
    
    The cyclistes (f.) I know generally prefer women's saddles, and say
    it makes a difference.  The pelvic structure in women is different,
    and that's why the saddle ought to be different.
    
    Beyond that, everyone has individual variances, not just in physiognomy
    but in riding styles (speed, duration, position), and that has an 
    impact (:-)), too.  I'm just confirming for myself in trying to find
    a match for my Selle Italia (1981 model) saddle, which for some reason
    is more comfortable/less damaging than a Turbo, a Gel, or whatever
    cycle-of-today.
    
    So be aware of those two dimensions: the gender, and individual
    differences.
    
    -john

    It's a matter of personal preference.  You could go to a bike shop and
    see if it is more comfortable.  I chose to get one.  For me it is
    much more comfortable than the saddle that came with the bike.
    
    /Doreen
    

    Saddles are one of those things that some of us try several of
    until we find the one that fits.  We then end up with a collection
    of non fitting saddles.
    
    I have a female friend who tried a few women's saddles before find
    the right one.  For the record she had also tried several male
    saddles and rejected them all, some were almost comfortable some
    were not at all suitable.
    
    If you go with a men's saddle and don't have a problem, fine.  But as
    soon as you start having a problem, give some thought to changin
    saddles.  I think it is difficult to tell that there's a difference
    until you've done a long ride.
    
    ed

At a GEAR a few years ago I heard a workshop done by an M.D.

He said that it is very important that a woman use a womans saddle 
because otherwise you are "sitting on your ovaries".

I have no personal experience to add.

	~Mike

    I have a saddle question...  
    
    My bike has a Spenco saddle that I bought late last summer.  It has
    about 700-800 miles on it, and is virtually completely broken down.
    
    The gel has completely shifted off the front of the saddle to a LUMP
    about 3 or 4 inches back...  toward the rear (where the REAL weight
    rests) the gel is squished to the sides and back.  
    
    So, although I like the gel saddle, I'm wondering if some other brand
    will work better.  I haven't seen it yet, but supposedly Spenco has a
    new saddle with firmer gel.  And Avocet has several models...
    
    Advice?  The local bike shop said this one is warranted and will give
    me credit, so I'm trying to decide what to buy for a replacement.
    
    D

	I have both kinds on two bikes and both are in fine shape, one 
	on its third year (the VETTA) with the most use and the other on
	it second year.  Both are ATB style which are a bit wider than the
	others.  More comfort.

	The only thing it rather have closer to my rear is my girlfiend. 

    An update...
    
    I called Spenco and talked to their customer support people.  They were
    very concerned - wanted the saddle back posthaste.  Immediately gave me
    a return authorization number, no question, no receipt, no hassle... 
    Said I could send it directly to them for replacement in about 4 weeks,
    but suggested I take the saddle into the local bike shop where they
    would replace it immediately.  They did... no questions, no hassle, no
    receipt.  In fact, they replaced my standard saddle with the new Spenco
    Champion saddle - firmer padding.  If this doesn't work, the shop says
    we'll try the Avocet touring gel saddle... 

    I just wanted to say thanks to all those who spent time writing
    replies to my note about womens vs mens saddles.  I went out and bought
    a woman's AVOCET MTB Gell saddle.  Boy is it great!! I went out for 
    1+hr on very rough off road terrian and felt great!!  The saddle is 
    worth the money.
    
    Thanks again especially to those who sent me mail on a very personal 
    subject.
    
    Shannon

    	I was talking to Georgena Terry about her saddle development
    project: DuPont is making progress with a special material. It has
    the property that materials people call creep: It deforms very slowly
    when stressed. The object is, like the gel sadddles, to deform where
    there is high pressure (sit bones/other) so that the saddle assumes the
    contours of the sittee. More when I find out... - Chris

>    	I was talking to Georgena Terry about her saddle development
>    project: DuPont is making progress with a special material. It has
>    the property that materials people call creep: It deforms very slowly
>    when stressed. The object is, like the gel sadddles, to deform where
>    there is high pressure (sit bones/other) so that the saddle assumes the
>    contours of the sittee. More when I find out... - Chris



         Sounds a lot like the concept that was used in shi boots.
         It was called "flow" or something along those lines. The
         boots were very uncomfortable for a little while in the
         morning and as the day went on they got better (in theory).

         JC

    I used to own a pair of those ski boots.  The problem was that in time,
    the goo got hard and you ended up with more pressure points...  Also,
    sitting by the fire, the goo would get runny, messing up ANY fit that
    the boots had.
    
       Unless the goo technology has gotten better, they are going to have
    problems on hot days (especially with black saddles...).

Is anyone out there riding on a Selle Italia Turbo Matic?  How do you like it?
Is it "worth" spending the extra $30 for the titanium rails & the smooth 
leather?  Are the rails long enough to allow you to put your seat far enough
back?

Thanks!

    
    I believe there are a couple of notes in here about the Turbo Matic.
    To recap, I ride them, and they are now my saddle of choice:
    
      - the shock absorbers seem to prevent contusions;
      - the cut is excellent - keeps the saddle from chafing legs etc.;
      - the saddle is firm (not very padded) but comfortable.
    
    A testimonial: I tried one out in late Spring, 1991.  I had tried a
    VSA (Vetta Support ...) padded saddle, and didn't care for it.  So 
    I was going to ride RAAM on my Turbo.  Certainly late spring was too
    late to break in a new saddle, much less one this firm, for a July event.
    
    Surprise!  The Turbo Matic felt comfortable from the start, and
    required negligible breaking in.  In fact, I bought a *second* 
    Turbo Matic for my other main RAAM bike, and rode them both, with
    no saddle sore problems, something not every RAAM rider could claim.
    
    I then used it in Paris-Brest-Paris, many hours long cycling sometimes
    over rough roads - and other experienced long-distance riders were using
    it, with similar success, including Ed Pavelka who wrote the article
    on PBP in Bicycling.
    
    Your anatomy and riding style may be less optimal for the Turbo Matic
    (or vice versa).  Depends.  But I've heard many favorable comments.
    
    The Turbo Matic doesn't have Titanium rails, at least the standard
    model.  You may be confusing it with the Sella Italia "Flite" model -
    which people also like, but for shorter rides.
    
    Good luck checking these out...
    -john

John,

I think it's in the Colorado Cyclist catalog, but somewhere I saw two 
versions of the Turbo Matic offered.  One was what you referred to as the 
"standard model" (about $50), the other had smooth black leather & titanium 
rails (about $80).  I actually have never seen one though since our local 
shops don't offer either version.  Thanks for the feedback.

Ray

     Sella Italia already makes two models (3 actually - one for ATB's).
    I strongly recommend the Flite saddle (I have two) and it is defintely
    the most comfortable racing saddle I've ever used...
    
     Chip

    
    Ray (and Chip),
    
    Ok, that explains it - there are 2 (or 3) models.  If I were going for
    light weight, I'd get the Flite, rather than going for the Turbo Matic
    with Ti rails.  People do seem to like the Flite a lot, as I said -
    but there is also the consensus that the Turbo Matic offers
    significantly more comfort for longer rides (I guess that would be
    longer than a metric).
    
    -john
    
    PS: I'd really want to see a FOURTH model - a women's Turbo Matic.
    It gets frustrating on the odd occasion when women ask me to recommend
    a saddle, and I can't recommend the Turbo Matic for them (or the Flite!).

    
    
      IMHO - spending more than $60 on a saddle is wastefull.
             The San Marco regal is the most comfortable saddle I've ever
    	     ridden.  I thought that is was really pricey at $60.
    	     It is used extensively at the pro level and is without a
    	     doubt the nicest looking saddle available.
    
    	     also "IMO" saving a few ounces of weight on your saddle
             is not going to make you any faster.  Training hard, smart
    	     and consistently makes you faster.  Spending $80 on a saddle
    	     only lets the world know that either you have money to burn
    	     on toys or you have good sponsorship.
    
    	     But then again if I had enough money I would probably have
    	     a few more of these frivolous toys myself.
    
      John C.
    

    
    I just bought one for Christmas (Turbomatic).  The second ride was a
    century and I didn't have any sorness the following day.  It is slighly
    less padded than my previous saddle, but no complaints.
    
    Someone I ride with a lot has a Flite and likes, I should say, loves it
    very much.  But, he is into fast riding! :-)
    
    john 

     IMHO - I really don't think spending any amount is wasteful
            since that particular component is one of the most
            important components... If you're comfortable 
    
          - I've had both the Sella San Marco and Sella Italia
            Regal(right model name?) and personally find the
            Flite much better (not only weight will influence
            performance)
    
          - I agree, women are ignored
    
       My $.02... Chip

    
     Just to add a little note... I've done centuries with the
    Flite and found it more comfortable - even on loooong rides.
    
     It look un-Godly uncomfortable, but it really, really surprised
    me...
    
     I'm up to $.04 now...
    
         Chip

	John and Chip, 

	I'm glad you brought up the lack of good women's saddles.  I used
	to have just a "regular" men's saddle on my Fuji.  I was *always*
	uncomfortable.  Last year I bought a woman's VSA.  As soon as I
	sat on it I was AMAZED.  It was the first time I was sitting on my
	*butt* (if you know what I mean).  Then when I got my new bike I
	had them put a woman's Vetta Gel on it (not VSA tho).  It wasn't
	nearly as comfortable.  So I swapped it with my VSA.  Problem is,
	now I'm uncomfortable on my VSA!  

	I know that my position has changed (I'm not nearly as stretched out),
	so that must be it.  But it's getting really frustrating.  I was
	having a real problem w/discomfort last summer during our 20 mile
	lunchtime rides.  This year I want to attempt some centuries, but I'm
	really worried about my posterior preventing me from lasting.

	Any suggestions?
	Sue

    Sue,
    
    First, I don't understand why more prominent saddles don't have
    women's models.  Let's hope that changes.  (I'd be interested to hear
    about "Saddles of the Stars" - e.g., what do top women racers use?)
    
    Anyway, why are you less stretched out?  One would think that a
    cyclist(e) would evolve to being *more* stretched out with experience
    and training, not less, unless your new bike is an MTB.  Or... does your
    new bike fit you better (i.e., you were too stretched out before?).
    
    Maybe if you could describe your two bikes (old, new), and the
    type of riding (presumably fast, to judge from Steve Horn's notes :-)).
    
    My concrete saddle suggestions are few.  A fair number of Women RAAM 
    competitors riders seem to prefer the Avocet gel.  Now *that's* a
    long ride. :-)  I'll go back & check the RAAM'91 riders' survey
    to confirm that (or maybe the '90 - 4 women (1991) isn't much of
    a statistical sampling).
    
    A friend who has had quite a bit of exposure to cycling (rides nice
    bikes, has worked at bike-shops full of hot-shots, etc.) had a 
    Belladonna (I've forgotten the company name), and I believe now likes
    the Rolls - but I'm not sure if it's a women's model - you'd think it
    would be.  Anyway, she definitely casts her vote against gel.
    
    Hope this helps.
    -john

    	Here's some info from the RAAM '91 Rider's Survey. I'll list
    	the different saddles used by the five women (4 singles and
    	1 tandem rider):
    
    	Cathy Ellis	Avocet gel
    	Debbie Breaud	Vetta gel
    	Susan France	Avocet gel
    	Mary Burns	Waveflo leather
    	Cherie Moore	Avocet synthetic
    
    	Four finished all 2900+ miles (Mary Burns finished 1582 miles).
    
    	scott
    
    		

	John,

	Maybe I should put this in a "bike position" note, but since you
	asked...

	My old bike was a Fuji Del Ray (sort of a "sport touring" bike), 
	21 inches (I think).  I don't remember the stem length, but it was
	probably at least 4".  I did short rides, < 20 miles, and not very
	fast.

	I had a fit kit done before buying my new bike, a Bianchi Alfana.  
	I got the recommended 55cm frame.  The shop set it up w/a short stem 
	to get the suggested top_tube + stem length.  From what I understand, 
	it's very common for women to need short stems since they have 
	proportionately longer legs than men.  In fact, the fit kit guy said 
	my legs were proportionately longer than most *women's* and my arms
	proportionately *shorter*!  Gee, you'd think I look pretty funny by 
	this discription (Steve: no comments please %^).

	So anyway, theoretically this bike fits me better.  I think I was too
	stretched out before.  I also raised my saddle a bit too I think. And
	my riding "habits" have changed: generally faster and usually longer
	distances.

	I've also heard mixed reviews of Gel saddles.  Since I went from a
	non-gel, men's saddle to a gel, women's saddle, it's hard to say which
	factors made it more comfortable, or if a non-gel women's saddle would
	be even better.

	I'd also be curious to hear what women racers use.  

	Thanks again,
	Sue

    
    Sue, 
    
    Your bike-fit procedure sounds good.  At this point, I'd have to
    see you in person (your riding stance, and how you move on the bike
    while pedalling).  I'll post any more info on women's saddles here,
    I guess, and we can start new note with info about fit.
    
    cheers,
    -john

    
    
    I remember Sue was quite 'stretched' out on the Fuji...it was not
    very well suited for our 'style' of riding.  Sue is a bit less
    stretched on the Bianchi...so she is most likely putting a bit more
    weight on the saddle.  Of course she's increased her avg speed
    significantly too with all the commensurate changes in cycling style!
    
    I'm not much of an advocate for 'mushy' seats...heck I've been running
    on an old Brooks Pro!!!  That's one HARD slab of leather...but I've had
    no unusual problems on the short hard ones or the century.  Of course
    we'll see how the San Marco Titanio does on my 'fast' bike this year!?
    
    Steve
    
    P.S. Sue looks pretty well proportioned to me!!   8^)

    
    
    ...John, you coming up to visit Ed this season?  Mayhaps we can all do
    a Century together!!
    
    -Steve

    In Effective   Cycling,   John   Forrester  recommends  some  home
    modifications  of  standard  saddles  for  women. I don't remember
    exactly where he trims them, but you might want to look it up.

    Finding a  saddle  that  fits  seems to be a very personal search,
    particularly  for  women.  The  only advice that seems universally
    accurate is to try different saddles until you find one you like.

    
    RE: .-1 -- If you find the Forrester advice, please post it.
    It seems to me that "trimming" can't do the whole job for women,
    since the main thing is to *spread* the saddle to accomodate wider-set
    pelvis.  Women's models of saddles seems to confirm this.  (Note this
    is not padding, it is widening.)
    
    RE: .-2 -- Could well be I'll be visiting Ed - a century (perhaps as
    part of a longer ride? :-)) would be great.  BTW, I will be up this
    week Tue-Thu in ZK, but won't be planning on a century.  :-)
    
    -j

"won't be planning on a century."
    
    I know, I know, "meetings interfere"?
    
    ed :-)
    

    
    Yes, that's it - yeah, it's the meetings...
    
    -j

    Sue, since no one has answered the original question you posed,
    "How do you get used to long miles?"... Or close to that.
    
    Unless the seat or position are not even close, spending time in
    it is the only way. The human body is an extremely adaptable
    piece of equipment. It will generally take whatever you throw
    at it and adapt unless it's an injurious/damaging activity.
    
    Hang with it, experiment a little and it'll happen.
    
       Chip 

    RE: .29
    
    At Chip's reminder (.-1) I looked at your note.  I really can't
    add much to what Chip says.  The main way to get comfort on long
    rides is to do miles.  A friend here who has excellent form went
    out for my Century series a year ago - by the ride's end (:-))
    his muscles were fine, but his posterior was sore.
    
    Aside from the mileage, of course, you need to check your position
    and form - e.g., are you smooth in the saddle or do you bounce?
    My posterior rapidly starts to complain when I push the pace beyond
    what I'm used to - for example, to keep up with people.  I guess
    that's revealing weakness in form-under-stress.  Something like that.
    
    Finally, some people like lubrication on the underside, to lessen
    chafing.
                                                           -john

    
    
      Sue,
    
     In addition to all the other additions.  Check and make sure that
    the saddle is level from front to back.
    
    John - Rolls is made my San Marco.  Its the one with the gold band on
           the back.
    
    Chip - The Regal is also made my San Marco.  I think Selle is an
           Italian word or designation for "saddle" or "seat"
    
    
    

>    RE: .-1 -- If you find the Forrester advice, please post it.
>    It seems to me that "trimming" can't do the whole job for women,
>    since the main thing is to *spread* the saddle to accomodate wider-set
>    pelvis....

    As I recall, the modification was to take a solid plastic seat and
    to remove an oblong chunk out of the middle, and then over it
    with leather.

    -Jeff Bell

I'm thinking about a new saddle, for two reasons:

1. While in Valbonne last week I rode Bill Strong's Trek which had, I think,
   a San Marco Rolls saddle. This was rather comfortable and showed me that the
   basic Turbo may not be the be-all and end-all of saddles.
2. The white Turbo I have does not fit the colour scheme of the new bike (cries
   of "Poseur!" in the background.)

Reading recent entries here, it seems that the Turbomatic and the Flite are
recommended. I'm not familiar with either; what are they like, how much do they
cost? What else would people recommend?


Rod

    Rod, the Turbomatic and Flite have lots of fans these days - the
    preference seems to break down as Turbomatic for longer miles,
    Flite for shorter (up to a metric?) racing miles - people say the
    Flite becomes less comfortable on longer trips, but so much of this
    is personal riding position and personal anatomy.  Some details:
    
      o  Turbomatic: ($60 in Performance, about twice that with
         Titanium rails) Dense foam padding (like the San Marco) and
         textured leather cover, cut more slimly than, say, the Turbo
         (which used to be my saddle of choice, but no comparison, really),
         and rubbery (plastic) shock cushions between rails and saddle.
    
         The Turbomatic's cut fits me better, leaving legs more room to
         move without rubbing against the saddle ... "Less is more."
         The shock absorbers do not muffle the feel of the road, to
         my feel initial surprise.  Instead, they sock up sharp shocks
         (either from coarse road-surfacing or irregular bumps), preventing
         contusions -- it's the contusions that can turn into boils or
         other nasty things.  I think it's a much better solution than
         gel-padded saddles, because shock is better absorbed, yet the
         saddle tongue, etc., is not bulky.
    
         The Turbomatic did well on RAAM and PBP, and gets Ed Pavelka's
         endorsement in Bicycling for his use in PBP.
    
      o  Flite: (from $80 in Performance) Someone like Chip should comment 
         on this.  The minimalist stretched leather and shell make it very
         lightweight and its slim cut mean it interferes even less with
         legs.  It is also comfortable, apparently, at least for normal
         length rides.  Racers I know in the local area like the Flite.
    
    -john

     Re; the Flite on longer rides... John is right on. It's
     really a "rider" thing. I do centuries with the Flite
     and don't think it's any less comfortable than any other
     saddle I've owned. 
    
     It's remarkably well padded for such a tiny thing.
    
        Chip

    I use the Flite and find it quite comfortable for anything.
    
    And Bicycling has said that the 5500 is very stiff but
    I don't think the Flite passes along any more than usual shock.
    
    ed

    I used the Flite saddle on Paris-Brest-Paris last year with no
    problems. BTW, it's a great theft-proofing device. Nobody is going to
    steal a bike with such a uncomfortable-looking, skinny saddle as a
    Flite because they'd have to replace it right away.
    
    GS

    You folks may think I'm demented, but I just bought a Cannondale ST1000
    (last year's model, I got a good price...) and one of my favorite
    features is the Brooks Team Pro all-leather saddle. I don't miss the
    padding at all - it's one of the most comfortable saddles I've ever
    ridden on, and an 'average' ride for me is 75+ miles.
    
    	/Harry

I agree I had one on an old English Racer 3-speed. It was
really comfortable after a short break in. It wasn't
very light though. I noticed after it broke in it felt like 
a sling. The leather would stretch under you as you hit
a bump. This would work much better than 1/8th inch of foam.

I wish I still had that old bike. It was my first real bike.
I had received it for my 11th birthday. When I first
saw it I was kind of put off by it's black finish and lack
of chrome (it even had the black fenders with a bit of white 
at the bottom of the rear fender.) The other kids had Chopper 
bikes and I had this pep� bike. But long after the other kids 
bike fell apart, this well made machine was going strong. 

One day after CCD class, I found someone had stolen it from 
beside the church. 

Life has never been the same since....

Sniff sniff ;-)

     Leather is nice, but soooooooooo heavy  :-)
    
        Chip

	I can finally join the ranks of the Ti fanatics! (Hi Chip)
	I bought a Terry Ti racing saddle from Wheelworks ($65).

	I really didn't buy it for the Ti, though it IS a full 4 ounces
	lighter than the Vetta Gel I had (measured it on my kitchen scale).
	Mostly I bought it to see if the Terry design of cutting out the
	front portion of the saddle's plastic base would make riding more
	comfortable.   So far I've ridden it on the roller trainer a couple
	of times.  Can't tell yet whether the difference will be dramatic.

	Can't wait to get back on the road!  Afraid it'll be awhile after
	all this snow....


	Sue