Conference terri::cars_uk

Out of touch with Ignition!  Economical green cars don't have such stuff any
more.

				;^)  ;^)  ;^)

				Malcolm.

I've had a similar problem in the past, problem is in trying to 
narrow it down....

Mine was a Citroen AX and I think it was a bad connection in the 
electronic ignition box, which is a sub-assembly of the distributor.

Initially, I used a little used dash light (worn brake pads) and tagged it's 
wire onto the coil switched feed. Now remember, this particular light is 
fed from live, and switched to ground (normally through the brake pads 
to disks) So it was on everytime the ignition unit switched the coil to 
ground (The coil is usually similarly fed live, with the ignition switching
ground.)

Thus, whilst everything was operating sweetly, the light glowed on. When 
it went faulty, the light stayed off!. 

OK, long explanation, but you need to eliminate several things, each of 
which occur whilst driving, so you can't open the bonnet and look!. 
	Is the power to the electronic ignition being lost ?
	Is the power to the coil being lost? (maybe both sides of your coil
	connect to the ignition unit)
	Is the coil being switched (as was my problem)

Having this 'diagnostic' indication you hould be able to procede a little further!.

Richard

    re.-1
    
    Thanks. This is helpful (I contemplated the idea and didn't really
    fancy it!). I'll check inside the dizzy (something I haven't done,
    since all the electronic ignition is in one small module inside the
    dizzy, and not serviceable) but, failing that, I guess it's wire up
    some bulbs like you suggest.
    
    As you say, the annoying thing is it doesn't happen when you're
    standing still!
    
    Failing that (since I need the car for a long journey next tuesday) I
    might just take it in to an auto electricians. But I'll try your
    suggestion first.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Daniel

    Doesn't happen to be a sparkrite aftermarket bolt on unit does it. If
    so its your unit. This is a common fault and have heard of at least
    three such cases. If you put the wee switch on the unit back to normal
    it will go away indefinitaly. As to the cause, try calling sparkrite,
    they may exchange the unit. having been nearly killed in the fast lane
    of the motorway a couple of times I gave up.
    			brian.

    No, it's an Aldon Ignitor unit.
    
    It has a lifetime guarantee, so if it IS the unit there's not a
    problem. (Well, a slight one. Aldon are based in Brum, where I'm going
    next tuesday. But I got to get there first if it needs replacing!)
    
    Maybe a quick phonecall to them.....
    
    Dan

    Oy! Is this dodgy gear the setup you recommended I put in the Frogeye?
    It is!
    
    Laurie.

    Hold on! I haven't said that it's THAT that's dodgy yet! It's more than
    likely some connections somewhere!
    
    Dan(let's not jump to slanderous conclusions..... yet!)

	Only one idea, have you checked the state of the balanced
	resistor wire?  This wire only comes into operation when the
	engine's running (not when starting).  I had a problem once
	where I had a *very* dodgy connection and it would cut out
	too.

	Dave

    >>balanced resistor wire
    
    is this the one that runs from the coil +ve and earths to the block via
    a condenser-type looking thingy? Ummm.... hold on.... where abouts
    would this wire be? I'm not sure I even have one....
    
    All that makes up the ignition is the coil, leads, plugs, dizzy and
    this magic little black box inside the dizzy. No points/condenser in
    the dizzy. There is the aforementioned earthing jobbie -  this is the
    ballast resistor isn't it? For reducing radio interference, etc...?
    
    There are wires for the rev counter, etc.
    
    It's almost as if a quick flick of the starter motor 're-sets' the
    problem. It may work for 10 minutes fine, it might pack in again on 2
    seconds later! Definately sounds like a dodgy connection somewhere.
    I'll have a good look tonight.
    
    :-)
    
    Dan

    RE: .8
    
    Don't you mean a ballast resistor? I don't recall ever having seen one
    of those on an A-Series.
    
    Laurie.

    The important thing here is no matter what you do the car won't start
    by bumping whilst still moving or turning the ignition key with the
    clutch dipped.Only once you have stopped will it start. This is exactly
    as my fault due to dogdy unit. Its as if someting has latched up and
    can only clear once the distributor has stopped spinning.
    Nightmare on elmstreet city...
    			Brian.

    Oh no, it WILL restart while moving, provided ofcourse I put the clutch
    in and let the  engine stop first!
    
    It's as if the starter button re-sets something. But I've renewed the
    solenoid. Maybe the 'twitching' of the engine while starting it
    re-joins the dodgy connection.
    
    Oh well. All good fun! Looks like I'll be busy tonight.
    
    :-)

Make sure that the ignition switch is working properly and that the wires
going into it are properly connected.

A few other pointers....

Heat building up on the circuit will cause the system to shut down. Check the
wiring(type and condition) carefully. You cannot expect modern, high voltage
ignition systems to perform on a old wiring harnesses/switch gear.....look for
the weak point there is always one somewhere.

Is your coil up to the job......condition and spec rating? IMPORTANT.

And lastly......are you sure the problem is not fuel starvation, rather than
an ignition problem.....for that's what it sounds like.....blocked filter or
a dodgy pump?

John

 

    No, definately ignition.
    
    When it happens, the rev counter dives for zero! The circuit is
    definately lost.
    
    The coil is new and worked fine, I've tried 3 different ones all
    to no avail, new leads, plugs, etc! Even a recent dizzy cap &
    rotor arm.
    
    I think I'll go around re-crimping all the connections, etc. plus
    check the OTHER end of the circuit (ie. behind the dash). Then its
    a case of taking it out for a spin, waiting for it to do it again,
    and diagnosing the problem with the suggested 'status-lights'.
    
    :-[
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    Well I spent most of last night stripping the ignition apart, and I
    can't find anything blindingly obvious yet. I took the dizzy out
    (carefully marking the alignment, I hasten to add!) and had a look at
    that.... everything seems fine.
    
    Will continue my efforts tonight, when I will move to
    behind-the-dashboard !!
    
    Dan

RE:        <<< Note 2353.15 by FORTY2::HOWELL "Just get to the point..." >>>

�    Will continue my efforts tonight, when I will move to
�    behind-the-dashboard !!
    
    Dan,
    
    That's where you should have started! It's probably in the switch
    behind the key!

    Cheers, Laurie.

    :-S		Oh well, you know me. Can't take the logical route :-]

    Well I've checked everything and I can't see what the problem is, so
    SHOCK HORROR a kit car owner has gone to an outsider for help :-).
    
    Mr.Auto Electrician comes to visit the car some time today or tomorrow.
    
    I've re-wired it, checked connections, etc. The ignition is fine at the
    dashboard-end (always live) so it's not a problem there, I don't think.
    Practically all the ignition at the rear is new, particularly the
    solenoid. The live feed to the coil goes dead. I tried feeding a live
    current to it instead from the battery (via a switch, ofcourse, so I
    don't burn it out!) but no joy. Sure, the coil had no excuse to go
    dead, but the problem persisted.
    
    Ignition goes dead - not the electrics, though (everything else
    functions fine). However on starting up I've noticed the lights are
    getting bad, so I've put the battery on charge. This is probably just
    to do with the amount of starting it's been doing recently!
    
    Checked the earthing cables. Seem fine. While the car is standing still
    it's not very easy to replicate the problem, but on the move it can be
    easier. It seems to come in 'waves' ! All will be fine for 5 minutes,
    then it'll do it a lot, then it might be fine for a while, etc..
    
    I'm think something to do with the engine movement pulling on a wire,
    since it would seem that infamous engine steady (close followers of the
    Mini topic will note... :-] ) is slipping again!! On goes another one
    tonight....
    
    Ahhh well. These things are sent to try us.
    
    regards,
    Daniel (tell you the outcome when I hear it!)

    
    how about the Battery Eartch to Engine/Subframe ? this could be being
    broken due to vibration when driving.
    
    Graham

    It's fixed! A nice gentleman came and had a look, and after much head
    scrathing we traced it down to behind the dash.....
    
    A bad connection, or possible a fuse, was heating up alarmingly,
    showing there was a definite problem. The brown stained plastic
    connector said all that needed to be... :-)
    
    He bypassed the connector and fuse for the ignition feed only
    (supposedly it's not common practise to fuse the ignition system anyway
    - as far as I know, it's always been the same in my car :-) ) thus
    taking some current from the fuse & connector.
    
    After cleaning up everything, replacing the fuse, etc etc... the car is
    now fine. Now just that engine mount to deal with.......... :-)
    
    Cheers for the suggestions guys, it did make tracking the problem
    quicker.
    
    Regards,
    
    Daniel

At the risk of saying.....I told you so in my note.

Heat build up is common with this kind of fault. There is always a weak point
which must be determined and rectified.

I am glad that you are happy now......but as I know myself, there is always
something else to do next!

John 

    Yep, true, well done (it was just finding the darn thing ;-] ).
    
    Since bypassing the ignition, the load has been reduced anyway
    (although we cleaned up the connection while we were at it). This has
    cured the problem, and also improved things for the future too. A
    simple scotchlok was all that was needed (apart from the new fuse and
    cleaning the connections).
    
    Cheers,
    
    Dan

	On a related topic, where can decent electrical 
	connectors be bought in and around Reading?  I've
	run out of the last heap that I bought at one kit
	car show.  The sort that you can buy at Halfords are
	absolute rubbish.

	Dave

    Lucas Autocentre just off Basingstoke Road?
    dt

    ... & Chloride Gaedor ?
    ... c.v.thompson ?
    
    ...Soldering Iron & tape :-)
    
        Tony.
    

	I'll try Lucas (Prince of Darkness) up the road.  As for
	soldiering, yes, that's what *all* the connections on the
	Marlin were.  The MG's are push fits and the last owner
	used a lot of naff ones.  I've replaced pretty much all
	of them now (I even re-wired the overdrive circuits).

	Dave

Hi,
	I have a Vauxhall Astra (A reg) which yesterday just stopped going, and
now wont start, I have checked that fuel is getting through ok, but when I
checked the spark there is nothing while the engine is being turned over Except
when the ignition key is turned off there is a single spark.
	Does anyone have any idea what the problem may be..

Thanks

Peter.

    The problem is that you need a taxi, bus or a lift to go any where. 
    
    The reason why the car won't could be anyone of the following:
    	is the immobaliser switched off?
        has some joker nicked your HT leads?
        ...
    
    The solution is join the AA.
    
    Cheers Nick

    Peter,
    
    In an attempt to be a little more helpful i'd look and things around
    the distributor ie, cap, rotor arm (is it electronic ign.?), high and
    low tension leads. It maybe that the coil has given up the ghost.
    
    Royston

    Electrics - coil, points, distributor cap, HT leads, LT leads
    
    Not necessarily in that order.

    Nick,
    	It would have been a good joke, the car was doing about 40 mph at
    the time ..... still thanks for the suggestions
    
    Royston,
    	yes this does have electronic ignition , the problem is that I dont
    know how to identify the faulty bit, any ideas..
    
    Thanks
    
    Peter.

    �how to identify the faulty bit, any ideas..
    
    Peter, it may still be something apart from the elec. ign. itself so
    check the rotor arm and dist. cap for good contact. As said earlier
    it may be the coil as if it happened suddenly something gave up big
    time. Check the connection if the HT and LT leads from the coil to
    the distributor. It may even be an earthing problem. It could do no
    harm cleaning up the battery terminals. 
    
    If nothing obvious is wrong I'd get Ralphs down the road to have a look
    at it.
    
    Royston

    If you are getting a single spark when you turn off the ignition, this
    suggests that the coil is receiving LT and is sending HT when LT
    is removed (as it should do). What seems to be missing is the switching
    on and off of the LT as the engine turns, which suggests either the
    sensor in the distributor or the electronics "box" or the cables in
    between.
    
    Phil Gill. 

    
    Broken cam belt! famous Vauxhall fault.

    I would have thought that a broken cam belt would cause a racket as the
    pistons smacked the valves when the engine was turned over. 
    
    Clive

    I think he was being, umm, a little silly?
    
    Cheers,
    Dan$one_to_talk

    I hope not, I dont think the car is worth the repair cost.
    
    Pete

    Hmm, not so silly thinking about it. The cam belt bust on my missus
    Astra van once and caused no engine damage. Don't ask me why, but it
    wasn't the first case I'd come across either. I think Bill is right.
    
    Phil Gill.

    
    I don't think it will be the Cam belt - if this had gone then yes, you
    would get the symptoms you describe but, the engine would also turn
    over much faster than normal when you turned the starter (assuming the
    engine was running when whatever happened, happened the pressure in
    each cylinder would have moved the valves to a position where there was
    least resistance - so little compression). 
    
    I'd still go for the condenser/coil-distributor lead/coil/electronic
    ignition in that order...
    
    Graham

    Well, thanks for the help, the problem is very nearly the cam belt....
    its the cam shaft which for reasons yet undetermined has snapped in
    two.
    "well sir (sharp intake of breath) we've never come across that before,
    no telling what that will cost..."
    
    Rats, I was hoping it would be a nice simple distributor problem.
    Peter

    >                 <<< Note 2353.40 by COMICS::HESS >>>
    
    >its the cam shaft which for reasons yet undetermined has snapped in
    >two.
    
    This happened to my girlfriends Nissan Micra about 3 months ago. It
    cost just over 400 pounds to fix the engine. That was with parts at
    cost and special deal on labour, as her mother works at a Peugoet 
    garage where the repair was carried out. The engine was never the same
    afterwards so she used the car to trade in for a 106 about 2 weeks
    later.
    
    POL.

    Mike Fiddler had the cam-belt strip on his Astra Sri a couple of years
    back and the final bill was over �1000.
    
    Clive

    
    how much it costs depnds on how handy you are with arer a spanner, a
    good cam will only set you back around �70-�100, then all you need is time,
    a manual and a few tools - assuming it hasn't done any other damage,
    of course.
    
    Graham
    

    
    I think he was being, umm, a little silly?
    
    The name's Billy not silly Dan! :>)
    
    Vauxhalls do not generally wreck the engine when the cam belt snaps! It
    happened to me on a Cavalier and had all the symptoms described!
    As we say in the CSC. You don't have to like the answer!
    
    Bill

    Sorry, mate, I didn't mean it like that! I just couldn't see how the
    cam-belt snapping could result in this behaviour. Still, you learn
    something every day!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

Most modern cars the distributor is bolted sideways on the 
end of the camshaft. Cam belt snaps, cam stops rotating, so 
does the distributor. S'easy!

Richard

    Guess I've been round A-series far too much!
    
    ;-)
    
    Cheers,
    Dan$point_taken

    Well , as a quick update, the car is now mobile again, the cause of the
    problem is believed to be the fact that the housings that the Camshaft
    runs through was out of alignment this was only found when the new
    shaft was being fitted, it probably would have gone in with a big
    hammer and and the suspicion is that this is how it was fitted in the
    first place (this being a recon engine) and that over time the strain
    became too much (I know how it feels)
    	
    Thanks for all the suggestions and help
    
    Pete