Conference terri::cars_uk

    .0�    Yesterday afternoon, on my way to the airport, I just passed by 
    
    Should read:
    
    Promenade des Anglais, Nice

    According to FIAT people, the new Coup� intends to step on the GM Opel
    Calibra's toes. External dimensions are similar while the FIAT has more
    room inside. Anyway, the body is unusual.

    Further thoughts on the Fiat Coupe anyone?
    
    There are lots on display round Munich. (Airport, shop windows, train
    station etc)
    
    Anyone driven one?
    
    If they depreciate as fast as most Fiats in the UK, a used one in a
    year or so may be interesting.
    
    John O'C

    .3�    Anyone driven one?
    
    I've been invited to a test drive by the local Fiat dealer (ner Ferney)
    last saturday. The roads were wet (light rain). 3 people on board: me,
    wife and saleman.
    
    Wife likes the car shape very much. She also likes the interior.
    
    Build quality: the car is entirely built by Pininfarina, Fiat supply
    the engine/gearbox. I found the car well built all around, outside,
    inside and under the bonnet.
    
    Driving impressions: Very easy car to drive, just a toy. I've tested the 
    Turbo version with 195bhp and 30.2daNm peak torque. The engine is another
    evolution of the famous 4 cyl 2litre engine developed for the Lancia Rally
    cars. The boost management is extremely smooth and precise. The gearbox is
    very easy too with a very light and fast gearchange, thanks to the cable 
    linkage supplied by ... just forgot. The ABS system is very effective
    but simpler than that of the Lancia Integrale. It has 4 sensors (instead
    of 6). Braking with 2 wheels on the road and 2 wheels on gravel did not
    cause the car to change its line. I could not really test the cornering
    due to the poor conditions. Nice instruments, steering wheel and column
    can be adjusted. Power steering (adjusted with speed), air conditioning
    and leather interior are standard on this French version.
    
    Negative points: compared to some good quality modern saloons, the Fiat
    Coupe is more noisy. The seating is Ok but there is not enough lateral
    support from the front seats. The 2 back seats are not too comfortable
    for adults, kids should be OK. I haven't measured mileage but the
    reports all indicate that the engine is thirsty.
    
    Some good news: compared to similar 2+2 coupes the Fiat is very well
    placed. With more or less equal performance the Nissan 200SX and the 
    Opel (Vauxhall) Calibra Turbo are both much more expensive than the
    Fiat. I only have the FF prices so you may want to check other
    countries list price.

    
    I had a good look at a Fiat Coup� on Saturday for the first time (and a 
    Barchetta).
    
    The Coup� is definitely an acquired taste, but I like its bold design
    and even the 'retro' bare metal works well, giving the car the air of a
    50s Porsche (for instance).
    
    I was suprised to see that the back seats are actually pretty roomy
    (although I wonder about the boot size - the car was on a garage
    forecourt and the garage closed). The trim looked smart, but as it was
    all cloth, I guess this was the normally aspirated version, rather than 
    the Integrale engined turbo.
    
    The finish of the body looked good too. Strangely, we saw probably a
    dozen Fiat Coup�s on the roads between Stutgart and the Black Forest in
    3 days, whereas I've seen two in the Munich area in the last 8 months.
    Obviously people in that area a little more open minded when it comes
    to cars than the Bavarians.
    
    I'll try and visit the local Fiat dealer at the weekend and get a good 
    look at the car inside and out.
    
    Mark
    
    PS The Barchetta looked good too, with dinky door handles which pop out
    from flush when you press a button, although FIAT gave in to this
    year's trend and fitted white dials...
                               

    .5�    PS The Barchetta looked good too, with dinky door handles which pop out
    .5�    from flush when you press a button, although FIAT gave in to this
    .5�    year's trend and fitted white dials...
    
    I drove one for 20 minutes last Saturday. Very good interior finish for
    a drophead. The car was brand new so I did not want to go over 5000rpm.
    The engine is a brand new 1800cc 4cyl. based on the new Lancia Kappa 5
    cyl. with 16 valve. Like in the Coup� the Barchetta dashboard has some
    metal parts painted similar to the body, mine was red. The 3 dials had
    a white background.
    
    Handling seemed pretty good for a FWD but I did not have time to do a 
    full test. Initial impressions are good. ABS is standard and apparently 
    works well although the braking power is not impressive.
    
    Strict 2 seater. I did not try closing the soft top.
    
    Price is France: 129 KFF (compares very favourably with other similar
                              cars)
                              

    
    
    Sounds interesting a 5 cyl 16valve....what sort of configuration is
    that 3 valves on 4 cyl's and 4 on the 5th 8*))
    
    Richard

>    Sounds interesting a 5 cyl 16valve....what sort of configuration is
>    that 3 valves on 4 cyl's and 4 on the 5th 8*))
    
My guess is that all the cylinders are arranged in a star shape, and
share a common cylinder head, which has 16 valves in it.

Chris.

    Shouldn't this be in the V6 note?
    Matt

    8^))
    
    I probably did not use the right words. The Barchetta has a 16 valve
    4 cylinder engine of 1800cc, intrapolated from the new Lancia Kappa 5
    cylinder engine.

    
    Gotcha! makes some sense now!  8*)
    
    Richard 

    Seen one of these driving around Leeds in blue and also a couple of
    yellow ones on the back of Fiat Transporters.
    
    There not out in the UK until September, I understood, so are these
    demo/dealer cars?
    
    Greg

    Well having had my Coupe for two weeks and completed the running in
    period I think I can give a little review.
    
    First point, it attracts attention like you wouldn't believe,
    personally I dont like it but some might. Love it or loath it, people
    cant stop looking at it.
    
    Second point, performance, trips to the red line are unneccesary,
    infact changing down gears is also completely pointless, whatever gear
    your in at whatever speed, overtaking is quite frankly taking the P**s
    Turbo lag is noticeable at low engine speeds - but only for 1/2 a
    second or so, its probably the best of the turbo charged engines I have
    driven by quite a margin. One problem, water, if the road is wet,
    forget first gear !!
    
    Reliability - one problem so far !! - If the engine has been warmed up
    and then switched off and left for over twenty minutes before
    restarting it ( if left off for a couple of hours its fine ) it runs
    like a dog for 20 - 30 seconds. It stalls and develops little or no
    power for this period, however it seems to suddenly wake up and act
    perfectly !!
    
    Economy, I have taken two readings so far, the first was from 10 miles
    on the clock, to 300 miles and the second was 800 miles to 1200. The
    first reading was 19mpg, however it has now picked up to 28mpg ( i have
    left out the decimal points ) bare in mind that in the last test was no
    easy cruise and was mostly urban travel ( with a fair amount of
    throttle ) so I dont think its too bad so far - hopefully with a long
    motorway run it will improve further.
    
    Build quality, better than most Fiats but still not excellent - there
    are a few squeaks.
    
    Overall - I would rate it highly - its due to have the starting problem
    fixed next week I would recommend it but I dont want anyone else to get
    one - they might become too common.

    >>     Reliability - one problem so far !! - If the engine has been
    warmed up and then switched off and left for over twenty minutes before
    restarting it ( if left off for a couple of hours its fine ) it runs
    like a dog for 20 - 30 seconds. It stalls and develops little or no
    power for this period, however it seems to suddenly wake up and act
    >> perfectly !!
    
    My Renault 5 Turbo had similiar problems, the 'official' Renault
    solution was to let the car idle for around 10 secs before switching it
    off. Something to do with petrol evaporation or the like. You could
    plough through the R5 notes in here if your interested!
    
    Greg
    

    I had a similar problem on a 1400 Metro Turbo (old style). The solution
    was the same as the one Greg suggested, with the added caveat of trying
    to drive the last mile or two without the turbo kicking in. Apparently
    the heat in the engine bay would caused vapour-locks in the fuel system
    otherwise.
    
    Clive

    

    The 'official' Renault solution to this was to attach a fan 
    that blew cool air over the carb (not sure if the turbo was 
    cooled as well) when you switched off the ignition.


    Mark.

    PS: How much was the fiat on the scheme ?

    With all turbocharged engines one must not switch off the engine
    immediately following a full-throttle session. There are 2 reasons for
    that: one is that the petrol will just vaporize any place near the
    turbo charger (the turbine reaches temperatures around 900 degrees C in
    normal operation) and second the bearings of the turbine/compressor
    will also suffer since oil will also burn. It's a good practice to run
    the engine idle or around 2000rpm for a while (2 minutes?).
    
    Now, the Fiat engineers do master the turbo technology pretty well and
    the problem you are experiencing looks like a weakness in the petrol
    pressure somewhere or a wrong setup in the ignition microprocessor.
    Maybe this is a mandatory "feature" turned on while running in the new
    car ... I seem to remember that this engine management system will
    forbid full rpm/torque on 1st gear.
    
    Please let us know what comes out  

    > With all turbocharged engines one must not switch off the engine
    > immediately following a full-throttle session. There are 2 reasons for
    > that: one is that the petrol will just vaporize any place near the
    > turbo charger (the turbine reaches temperatures around 900 degrees C in
    > normal operation) and second the bearings of the turbine/compressor
    > will also suffer since oil will also burn.
    
    I would like to add one more reason for that:
    Depending on the size of the turbo it does about 80000 up to 150000
    rpm at full load. When the engine stops running oil presure is gone, 
    but the turbo doesn't stop running directly. It keeps running for some 
    time. Without fresh oil this isn't too well for the bearings...
    
    Cheers
    
    Frits

    Sounds like crap design to me...

    >> Sounds like crap design to me...
    
    Depends if it a company car or not :-)
    
    Jc
    

    The problem with my Fiat does not appear to be one of fuel evaporation
    !! I always allow at least a minute after the car has stopped moving
    before I turn the engine off - since I thought you had to do this with
    any turbo car !! The car still starts instantly at all times and runs
    okay for 1 - 2 seconds before the fault manifests itself.
    
    On the Punto GT Turbo I had - if you stopped the engine without
    allowing it to idle - the car would  have difficulty starting - the
    Coupe doesn't have this problem.
    
    Its nearly impossible to drive the coupe without the turbo spinning up
    since you can hear it from 1500rpm upwards, by 2000rpm it is pushing
    the car quite happily ( peak torque of 233lb ft is at only 2500rpm )
    Unless you are cruising at low revs in fourth or fifth gear it is hard
    to tell the car is turbocharged - it feels like a 3+ litre NA car.
    
    The car was quite expensive on the scheme at 5950 when I ordered -
    although its now over 6100.
    
    Somebody mentioned something earlier which is another ( i thought )
    fault with the car - In first and second gears, the car will not rev
    past 6250rpm ( with power dropping from 6000 ) the red line starts at
    7000rpm. I have not tried it in third ( since that would be 110mph
    according to the magazines ) a note earlier stated that the revs and
    boost where limited in first and second. My understanding of the system
    is that only boost is limited and only if wheel spin is detected !!
    Autocar magazine managed to happily go past the redline in their road
    test !!
    
    The car is booked in to the dealership on Friday - so hopefully they
    will tell me what the problem is !! However the dealership is Caledonia
    Fiat in warrington and in my experience the service department have
    never sorted a problem with a car of mine ( see Punto note !! ) so I
    have little hope !!
    
    Still - its worth having a little hastle as long as I can drive the
    Coupe - it really is orgasmic !! Incredibly fast ( faster on the straight 
    than a cosworth ( has to be dry if its a 4x4 Cossie !! ) handling is
    good and outright grip excellent ( the coupe is run-in now so I can
    open it up a little ) and on a trip to Wales at the weekend I got 35mpg
    on the motorway and A roads ( taking it easy !! ) the stereo is good (
    although not excellent ) I just wish plonkers in fords would stop
    trying to race me - im not interested and if I was any XR2/3/RS turbo
    wouldn't stand a chance !!
    
    Great car - just nobody buy one - I like the fact you never see any !!
    
    Rick Barrett
    

    Rick,
    
    I'd like to know your observations on cornering. During my short test
    drive of the original Turbo Coup� I had the impression that the front
    portion was heavy and that it would understeer. As I did not have the
    time and freedom to complete my road test I could not conclude. The car
    certainly felt happy on the straights, the viscodrive helping a bit when
    starting in 1st ...
    
    When I find some spare time I'll see my friendly Fiat dealer, just in
    case he has 20V Turbo waiting outside. 
                                          

    Patrick,
    
    Yep - understeer is present - I think something like 65% of the cars
    weight is over the front wheels !! - but in most circumstances you dont
    notice it. There is so much grip from the Pirelli P Zeros that the car
    starts to understeer at silly cornering speeds. More worrying is the
    fact that you can light up both front wheels if accelerating hard out
    of a corner ( in 1st or 2nd ) if the road is even slightly damp, this
    causes the front end to run wide - which can be unnerving the first
    couple of times it happens. The understeer isn't too bad since a slight
    lift of the accelerator brings it back on line quickly - without the
    rear end trying to overtake you.
    
    The quickest way to drive it seems is to keep as much speed as possible
    through the bend ( rather than slow in fast out as it was in my MR2 )
    and keep the car on part throttle through the bend and only flooring it
    once you have exited the bend. Having said that - the car is very
    satisfying to driver quickly - its very easy too - no torque steer at
    all (absolutely none) the only limitation is traction off the line.
    Once moving the car is comprehensively faster than other cars with 0-60
    times of around 6 seconds. So all round I would praise its handling -
    its very sure-footed and a pleasure to drive - I just wish other
    motorists werent such idiots ( polite wording chosen !! )
    
    I say get a Coupe, or 3.0 Alfa GTV if you can !!
    
    Rick

    It has to be said that the P-zero's are (i think) the best tires at the
    moment and are very sticky on dry roads.
    I'm interested in how long they last on the front (the tires...;-)). 
    A friend of mine's Volvo T5 P-Zero's are being replaced at every
    service. That's every 15.000kms.
    But they do offer grip, you can go extremely fast with them...
    

    Every 15000 KM's ( 9000 miles ) !! I can see tyre wear on the coupe being
    at least as bad. Which, I feel, will leave Leasplan less than happy
    bunnies !! Since the P Zeros are expensive ( 205/50 ZR 16's ) im sure I
    will be getting told off by Leaseplan in the near future.
    
    Is there any set schedules as to tyre changes on Leasecars - i.e. are
    Leaseplan going to go mental at me for getting less than 10000 miles
    out of a set of tyres - or do they expect this in powerful front wheel
    drive cars ?
    
    Rick
     

    .33�    A friend of mine's Volvo T5 P-Zero's are being replaced at every
    .33�    service. That's every 15.000kms.
    
    15000km is not bad, that's what I get with my current driving. With my
    Porsche 928, I could barely achieve 5000km on a set of tyres, and
    because the car was perfectly balanced you had to get rid of the whole
    set.

    >Is there any set schedules as to tyre changes on Leasecars
    
    If it is suspected that its caused by driver abuse then LP will
    have a problem.
    
    If they are like other companies they keep a track of how long tyres
    last on different models of cars. Obviously high performance cars 
    wear out tyres quicker because of the compound. This is presumably off
    set in the driver price.
    
    This reminds me of the good old days when I had an RS Fiesta and I had
    the front tyres changed at 20k miles because the tracking was out and 
    caused uneven wear. Hertz replaced the tyres but refused to pay to have
    the tracking done. When I queried it they said well done on getting 20k
    miles out of them as most of the other RS's in their fleet needed new
    tyres before 10k and they didn't want the set up changed at all.
    
    Royston (30k miles up and all still original tyres (Astra est.))
                                                                    

    Well, my Coupe went in to the doctors for a check up on the stalling
    problem on hot starts - and guess what ?? a problem that occurs 90% of
    the time for me and every time my manager gets in it - failed to occur
    during an entire day at the dealers ( not to mention 1/2 tank of petrol
    ).. I arrived back to pick my car up to be told that they had checked
    the computer, plugs etc. and no fault was found.The service
    receptionist got so cocky that I was talking rubbish by saying she
    would take me to the car and start it too prove it didn't stall and run
    roughly.
    
    We got to the car and started it up - it stalled and ran like a dog !!
    
    1 - 0 to me I think !!
    
    They didnt have a clue what it was and said they will phone me on
    monday to let me know what they suggest !!
    
    All I can say is that in my experience Caledonia Fiat in warrington
    have NEVER sorted out any problem with a car I have had - they have
    very poor staff who think they are doing you a favour by looking at the
    car and if you read my notes on the Punto I wouldn't touch them again
    with a barge pole !! If anybody is looking at ordering a Fiat avoid
    this dealership IMHO.
    
    Since the problem still occurs - I think I will go to another
    dealership - probably Forward Autos in St Helens - has anyone any
    experience with this dealership or any other local ones I could try ??
    
    Last point is that with Caledonia I had to argue the toss over a
    courtesy car - despite booking the car in advance and requesting a
    courtesy car - they wanted to give me a Fiat Cinccento - which is out
    of order when you have a 22,000 coupe !! I eventually got given the
    service managers Fiat Ulysse diesel MPV which has got to be the
    nastiest form of transport yet invented !! MPV's handle like a dog,
    steer like a dog and drive like a transit van !!
    
    NOT HAPPY
    
    Rick Barrett