Conference terri::cars_uk

    	Seat belt catches are supposed to be easy to undo, you'd want to
    	get out quickly in an emergency. This is a problem when your child
    	becomes old enough to do this himself ( a sort of Catch-22! ).
    
    	The seatbelts I bought recently for my wife's car came with a
    	warning that the catches were deliberately not tamper proof, and
        a recommendation that you encourage your child not to fiddle with
    	them - some chance!
    
    	Ian.

RE:       <<< Note 1822.0 by FORTY2::GAMI "Raj Gami REO2 F/M3 (830-6839)" >>>
�    but has any one heard of any devices which would stop a 2/3 year
�    old from undoing the seat belt. Can any one suggest some other
�    ingenious ways ?
    
    Yes indeed. It's called a smacked arse, and it works a treat. I know,
    I've been there three times, and each one tried it. Reasoning with them
    won't work, and as pointed out, any device to lock the belts could have
    potentially fatal results.
    
    Laurie.

Whilst smacking a baby might still be legal, it's certainly not recommended as
a means to pursuade babies to do what you want. In many cases smacking can make
the child less predictable. We had the same problem as .0 and on both occasions
stopped the car until the matter was sorted via serious discussion. For us, it
has only happened when our son was very bored from a long journey, the answer
to that is frequent breaks or journeys when the children are likely to be tired
and therefore sleep through the journey.

/Dave.

	I agree with Laurie, my first, at about 2 years undid hers and
	stood up (on the M4 near Bristol).  Despite stern warnings, she
	didn't sit down.  So, exit asap and smack bottom�.  She's never
	done it since.  Number 2, son now 2 had this habit of opening
	the window with his foot (via the window winder); same treatment
	as before and end of problem.

	Dave

	�This sounds draconian, but with a nappy on, smacking bottoms
	does not hurt.  The main deterent comes from making them feeling
	bad about doing these (dangerous) things.

    
    
    Wasn't there some Scottish Woman trying to get the smacking of kids
    outlawed... If she managed to get that law introduced we would just
    have to let our kids fall out of the car..
    
    Thats providing you haven't lost your licence for amassing speeding
    points on the way home form the video shop..
    One other solution would be to lock all kids in the boot so they could
    wander freely in part of the car without being at risk. This would also
    make car blinds superfluous and keep other motorists happy that they
    can peer into other peoples cars..
    
    Gary..

    I agree with your comments about trying to explain it to him, but he
    just does not listen. He will not do it if I am in the car, only when
    he is with the missus. I've tried slapping (without nappies !) no
    effect, it just makes him a little wilder. He is a very hyper-active
    kid. I suspect he is too young to understand that his behaviour can be
    dangerous.
    
    Nevertheless, I will remove the window winder and try some other
    avenues to keep him in his seat (handcuffs, chains, superglue....)
    
    Kids! who needs them...

>>> Nevertheless, I will remove the window winder 



Errr.. last time I took a window handle off, it left a very nasty spikey
metal shaft sticking out of the door trim.   

Not the kind of thing you want lying about the car when your kids are on the
loose.....


Ian

	Perhaps I should have added the rider that what works
	for one child does not neccessarily apply to any others.

	Dave

I try to teach my children violence is wrong. I think they'd find being smacked
a contradiction.

"Violence is the means of the inadequate".

/Dave.

    
    I can't say I've ever equated smacking with violence. I certainly don't
    remember my parents being violent... but I do remember getting smacked.
    
    It didn't hurt, just gave me a feeling of "oh boy, am I in trouble"
    
    No doubt there are as many opinions on this as the conference disk
    quota will allow.
    
    :-)

>>>	I try to teach my children violence is wrong. I think they'd find being smacked
>>>a contradiction.

	So do I, and smacking them when I tell them off for hitting each other
	(my son's more prone to this, must be the testerone levels) *is* a 
	contradiction.  

>>>"Violence is the means of the inadequate".

	Sometimes its the last resort of the desperate.  I use the "rule of 3", ask
	them, tell them and, finally, smack them.  I *very* rarely smack, in fact, I
	cannot remember when I last did.  Also, we have very few rules, and almost
	all of them safety related.  Finally, smacking is probably a lot less harmfull
	than ridicule.  That's it, I will enter no more notes on this subject - it is
	(after all) a car notes file...

	Dave

    I dont want to get into the pros and cons of smacking kids, lets leave
    that for the PARENTING conference.
    
    I'll see if removing the window leaves any sharp edges, if it does,
    i'll see if I can cover them properly with tape and such like. I am not
    going to allow him to open the window again !!
    
    Raj
    
    PS. I like the idea of a padded boot !

    One other observation about smacking as the final penalty.
    
    The effect of a smack seems to last for an exponential period of time
    to the previous. e.g. The first smack is administered (usually at an
    early age) and lasts a few days. The next one last n� days, the next
    n�� and so on. I can't remember the last time either of us smacked our
    ten year old, but it's certainly a number of years. Occasionally we
    may have to threaten a smack, but that's about all nowadays. It's quite
    a relief, otherwise we'd have begun to think he liked being smacked
    (but that's another topic, more about adults than children!! (-;))
    
    JK

    I'll say no more here than that .13 reflects my experience too. Any
    more discussion belongs in a more appropriate forum, such as EF_92.
    
    Laurie.

To get this topic back on track, I think it even more dangerous to smack a child
while driving than allowing the child to be out of their seat!

I urge parents to take the following measures;

1. Try to ensure the child is not bored. Buy a chair that allows views out of
   the window. Provide suitable toys. If possible have another adult or older
   child next to the child so that can play/supervise.

2. If a child does get out of their seat, stop as soon as it is safe to do so.

3. Talk to your child about the problem.

What won't work is shouting at them to get back in their seat or telling them
they are a naughty child. Tell them why they must stay in their seat and explain
the possible consequences of not doing so (injury in an accident) in words
appropriate for their age and understanding. Works for me.

Peace,
Dave.

    One thing that concerned me about .0's comments was that his 2 year old
    was on a booster seat.
    
    My lad is 4 and only recently has he transferred from a baby/child seat
    to a booster seat.
    
    Most baby seats are for children from 9 months to 5 years.
    
    Still I guess the same problem would remain that the baby seat belt
    would also be able to be undone quite easily.
    
    Roy

    Children whose parents are thick and who have their kids in their car
    and talk to them whilst not looking where thay are going and therefore
    crash into the back of my RS Turbo should be banned from driving for life
    or given a really good "kicking" instead of a slap on the bum. :-/
    
    Gary.

    
    re: .17
    
    >            -< My rear end will never be the same again... >-
    
    Mike H.
    

    A bloody big Renault 21 "snowplough" pilotted by a lunitic woman who
    was gossiping away to her offspring, blissfully unaware that there was
    a stationary queue of traffic ahead with my beloved RS at the end of it
    ready to be "snowcleared" sob, boo, hoo, uncontrollable quivering :-(
    
    
    Gary.

    RE .16
    
    >>One thing that concerned me about .0's comments was that his 2 year old
    >>was on a booster seat.
    >>
    >>My lad is 4 and only recently has he transferred from a baby/child seat
    >>to a booster seat.
    
    He does not fit into the baby/child seat and finds it uncomfortable.
    He's a big lad, (not really fat, but tall). 
    
    The seat he uses has a base with high sides and a large back rest which
    also wraps round his sides. It does provide very good support though
    once the belt (if it stays on) is strapped round him and the seat.
    
    Raj

    
    Best solution is to tie the child to roof bars (to stop them getting
    bored it's best to tie the ankles to the front bar and wrists to the
    rear!).
    
    
    
    And on a serious note, if taking the winder off reveals a spike
    (normal not sharp enough to be described as a spike though, surely?)
    why not get a matching handle off of a scrapped car (or something with
    a similar spindle size) and cut off the handle (leaving just the bit
    covering the spindle - I'd put a diagram, but no doubt it'd be
    ridiculed! :^)). Alternatively, if the car is available with electric
    windows, the manufacturer will almost certainly be able to provide a
    neat little blanking panel.
    
    Mark

Re 1822.21                
    
>>    Best solution is to tie the child to roof bars (to stop them getting
>>    bored it's best to tie the ankles to the front bar and wrists to the
>>    rear!).


Can't do that ...    
    
    
	Already got the mother-in-law there !