Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    I can comment.
    
    
    
    They're still too expensive for me!!! :^(
    
    Seriously, though, prices have fallen from the crazy highs of two and
    three years ago on all classic cars (age wise 80s Ferraris are
    obviously not your usual category of classic, but they all got caught
    up in the spiral, look at Porsche prices too).
    
    I expect you'll find that Ferraris (except the ultra-rare) will fall in
    value the same as any other car now, especially the common, but very
    attractive, 308s. If you can afford one, you'll probably have a great
    time (sadly I've never experienced one beyond sitting in a stationary
    one), but I can't see it being a cast iron investment in these days.
    
    Of course, insurance could be astronomical! Look in this conference for 
    prices for Ford Fiestas and the ilk and just imagine what a Ferrari run
    every day would cost to protect against accidental damage!!!! If you
    could afford and 80-82 Ferrari as a toy (read tiny mileage), you _can_ 
    pick up bargain insurance.
    
    Mark

	Re .1

	Apparently it's cheaper nowadays to insure a 308 than it is
	is to insure a Cosworth Sierra... something to do with the
	probable mentality of the driver in each case...

	JJ.

    If you think prices are lower in UK, you should see how they have
    fallen in the US.  Last week while at a FCA meet in Pennsylvania I was
    offered a 308 GT4 for US $30K and a 330 GT 2+2 for 45K.
    
    Both were in perfect condition and past Concours winners.
    
    45K is not bad for a 12 cylinder Ferrari that seats 4 and can cruise at 
    100MPH plus.
    
    Talk around the tables seem to imply that prices were about as low as
    they were going to get, and that increases were going to be in the 
    3-5% per year if the car is kept in very good condition.
    
    Just what I gathered from the conversations
    
    regards,
    JP

>>	Apparently it's cheaper nowadays to insure a 308 than it is
>>	is to insure a Cosworth Sierra... something to do with the
>>	probable mentality of the driver in each case...
    
    Well in reading some of the silly prices being quoted in this
    conference, I would agree.  Even insuring my Porsche costs les than
    some of the prices I've seen in here !!
    
    
    Shaun.
    

    Re .4
    
    Yup, ditto for me too.  I pay around 3 1/2% of the car's value to
    insure my Porsche; the numbers I've heard of elsewhere, and seen in
    other notes in this conference, can reach up to 50% of the value!  Sick
    or what!!
    
    Really it's not insurance that is expensive in running a Ferrari - it's
    servicing and parts.  My choice a couple of months back was between a
    348Tb or a 911 Turbo;  I chose the 911 because it costs three times as
    much to service the 348, and it needs it more often, and the
    differences in costs of such things as bumpers etc.  Also, having seen
    the state of a Testarossa's insides after two years (leather coming
    unstuck, stitching coming undone on the carpets, etc) I figured it was
    German build quality for me!
    
    If you're still not daunted, then surely the 328 GTB is the prettiest
    Ferrari ever...  and now at a 'realistic' price.
    
    
    Dave.

>>                -< It's the running costs that break the bank! >-
    
    Since you mention this, does anyone know details of just what
    sort of maintenance is needed on a Ferrari V6 or V8 engine ?
    
    ie, service / rebuild intervals and very rough price for the work
    
    J.R.

	3000 mile main service inteval on my step-brother's 308 GT4, can't
	remember what he was paying for each service though.

    
    The 308/328s are undoubtedly the prettiest Ferraris around at the
    moment (well recently), but not of all time. The Daytona is a beaut and
    the old 246 Dino and quiet a few others would rate ahead of the 308 in 
    my books.
    
    Still, if anyone tires of their 308 GTB, just send it over to my house.
    
    Mark 

	Surely the best looking Ferrari is the black 328 ?

	Far meaner looking than the red 'nick me' mobiles ;-)

    I have to say that the 246 Dino is my all time favourite (one day
    maybe)  But it would have to be red.  If its not red its not a real
    Ferrari !
    
    
    Shaun.

    Re .6
    
    I was told that you need to service a 348Tb every 6K miles with a minor
    service, and 12K for major (bit like a Ford really, if you excuse the
    analogy).  Price was around �1K for labour, plus parts, and all plus
    VAT for the major service.  FWIW, a 911 Turbo has the same schedule,
    but at a cost of 'only' �190 + VAT for the 6K service, and �700 + VAT
    for the 12K service.
    
    
    Dave.  

    I still think a 308 is the best looking Ferrari. The 246 Dino comes a
    close second - and Maranello had one, a '66 with 12k miles. Price -
    �65k! You see it costs more for an older uglier car. It's mainly two
    things I don't like about the 246; you can see the screws holding the
    light covers on, and the rear window is curved _outwards_ Now if they 
    had pop-up lights... But then they wouldn't be the ultimate sixties 
    sports car. 
    
    What about the racing 206SP. I hear someone in Italy has a road-going
    one. If I could only buy three Ferraris and money was no object - I'd
    have a 206SP, a 246GT and a 308GTS QV.
    
    I was in Atlanta recently, and visited FAF, the Ferrari dealers. There
    was a great guy there called Fred Repass. He gave me a tour of the
    workshops, let me sit in an F40, a couple of Testarossas, a couple of
    308s and a 348. Don't you think the TestaRossa is an ugly looking car?
    It was the first time I'd seen a Koenig model in the flesh, much nicer.
    The owner had 2 engines, and FAF would swap the engines and work on the
    spare, then when he came back do another swap and work on the spare.
    Anyway - he had an '83 308GTB, a QV, for $40,000 - is that about �25k.
    Makes you wonder about importing, but then it's a left-hand drive, with
    all the US emission control stuff on it.
    
    Steve.
    
    You can really give the game away when you try to open the door of a
    Ferrari - those door handles can really catch you out!

    
    Pop up lights are a really bad idea, the Testarossa isn't that bad
    (There was a Diablo and a Testarossa (2, in fact) at Thruxton on
    Monday and the Ferrari looked MUCH better).
    
    Koenig seem to specialize in turning good looking cars into machinery
    for the kind of people who bleach their hair and wear gold medallions!
    :^)
    
    Just goes to show that everyone has different tastes, doesn't it? :^)
    
    Mark

>>    I was told that you need to service a 348Tb every 6K miles with a minor
>>    service, and 12K for major (bit like a Ford really, if you excuse the
>>    analogy).  Price was around �1K for labour, plus parts, and all plus
>>    VAT for the major service.
    
    I though that the 6000 mile service was only for the new Ferraris.  I
    remember being told by someone who had looked at buying an older 308
    that a major service was required every 3000 miles and the cost would
    be �1000.  However, to keep the engine in its high state of tune would
    required a tune up every few hundred miles, and the engine would be in
    need of a rebuild at around 20000 miles.
    
    
>>    FWIW, a 911 Turbo has the same schedule, but at a cost of 'only' �190 
>>    + VAT for the 6K service, and �700 + VAT for the 12K service.
    
    For the Carrera (non-turbo) it only requies servicing every 12000 and
    the cost is approximately �400 + VAT.
    
    Shaun.

Be careful when choosing a 308 gtb/s, the original carb model produced 255 bhp 
and then they introduced fuel injection - the 308 gtb/si this produced 214 bhp 
went like a (dead) dog so the 32 valve QV was quickly introduced (308 gtb/si QV)
but this still only produced 240 bhp - the original 255 bhp only being surpassed
with the introduction of the 328. Now THE model to get is the fibreglass bodied
308 gtb (carb) - also the gts is heavier than the gtb.

What ever you get remember the service interval/cost (3000 miles and ���s) my 
308 gt4 is due its 50,000 mile service and that will be 27 hours + parts + all
other things they find wrong (and they always do). Then there's all the in
between costs, rear tyres only last (me) 5-6000 miles, 20 mpg (if your lucky),
exhaust systems, suspension systems, ...

If you are buying for investment, then you will be buying a low mileage car and
keeping it that way - so you may as well store it. If you want to use it then it
WILL cost you (don't I know it).

Tony.

ps. The 246 Dino doesn't have a Ferrari badge on it and from the ones I've seen
    scarlet doesn't look too good on them.

    � The 246 Dino doesn't have a Ferrari badge on it

    Huh? You sure you're not talking about the *Fiat* Dino? The Ferrari
    version has Ferrari written on it, or at least one owned by a friend
    does...

    Hi,
    
    ANy idea of the 0-60 and top-end for the 308 with injection and carb. I
    was always under the impression the carb developed 230 bhp and the
    injection QV 240 bhp? What year would a plastic bodied 308 carb be? Are
    there many around? I guess they'd be a lot cheaper?
    
    Steve.

    Re .14
    
    Absolutely.  But remember that the 348Tb and Ts have rather more modern
    engines, and as such they apparently don't need the 3K services, and
    their engine management systems keep the engine in a much better state
    of tune.
    
    About the 6K and 12K servicing on a 911 Turbo; this is recommended due
    to the heat that the turbo generates, and the 6K services is really
    only an oil change, check of manifolds and head bolts, and a general
    look-over.  The 12K service is more expensive than for a normal carrera
    due to the need to check tappets etc etc (or so I'm told - I haven't
    got there yet!).
    
    BTW, do you have a pre-'89 carrera, or a post-'89 carrera 2 or 4?
    
    Re .15
    
    I think you've hit the nail on the head re the cost of ownership angle. 
    Still, they have a great engine note (more than I can say for my 911 -
    sniff!)
    
    
    Dave.

    
    Plastic bodied carbed 308 GTBs are (or certainly were) much sought
    after (especially amongst the racing fraternity) which kept their 
    prices high. You'll almost certainly pay more than for an older metal
    308.
    
    Mark

>>    BTW, do you have a pre-'89 carrera, or a post-'89 carrera 2 or 4?
    
    Its an '85 Carrera (3.2 and averaging 27 mph!)
    
    
    Shaun.
    

    � Its an '85 Carrera (3.2 and averaging 27 mph!)
    					       ^^^
    	
    Blimey I won't get one of those then! :^)
    
    

    >> Its an '85 Carrera (3.2 and averaging 27 mph!)
    
    One hopes you mean 27 mpg ... :-)  Still, that's much better than I get
    out of mine (around 18 mpg the last time I dared calculate it... but
    then again, that's what I get for giving it a sound thrashing every
    time I drive it!)
    
    
    Dave,

    Hmmm, well I only get 24-25 mpg from my RS Turbo, and thats driving
    semi-economically. Perhaps I could fit a 911 turbo engine in it
    ? :-)
    
    Gary.

    Just out of interest, I once sat in a genuine rhd Ferrari Daytona...
    I bet those haven't started dropping in price ;-)

    re:.17
    
    Copied from Autocar & Motor 27 May '92 (without permission)
    308GTB road test 23/10/76 (Carb?)
    0-60 6.5 sec (a Westfield SEiGHT is 4.3 sec! but that's a rathole and
    		    another note but I'll include the figures in brackets
    		    anyway)
    Max speed : 154mph (140mph - Brick like aerodynamics)
    30-70 : 6.5 sec (3.6 sec )
    50-70 : 6.4 sec (4.8 sec)
    Overall Mpg : 19.1 Mpg (12 Mpg :-( )
    Weight : 1300Kg (690 Kg)
    
    
    
    

The original 246 Dino never had a Ferrari badge (same with the early model 308 
gt4 Dino) if you see a ferrari badge then someone other than the factory put it 
there! The Dino was supposed to be a new marque in memory of Enzo's lost son
Dino, but when it came to the 308 gt4 they took a commercial decision to re-
badge to Ferrari.

If you want the 308's performance but not pay the price - you can pick up a gt4
for between �10-20k with the added advantage of room for 2 amputees in the back,
that is if you don't mind Bertone styling. Also there is an opinion in the 
Ferrari owners' club that gt4s handle better that gtbs - they certainly do well
in the marenello cup. But remember they cost the same to maintain.

Tony.

    RE: .25
    
    Thanks for the numbers.
    
    I wonder how they got those figures... 30-70 = 6.5 secs
    					   50-70 = 6.4 secs
    
    Only a tenth of a second between them!
    
    Do you reckon a QV is as slow as 7 secs to 60. There must be
    hot-hatches quicker than that! Now that WOULD be embarassing, a good
    looking car like a 308 being beaten by a jazzed up 'shopping' car.
    
    Steve.

>> Its an '85 Carrera (3.2 and averaging 27 mph!)
    
    Congratulations to those of you who passed the initiative test ;^)
    
    Yes it is 27 MPG !
    	         ^^^
    
    Shaun.
    

    Re .27
    
    I think you'll find that the 30-70 is a 'through the gears' time (ie
    using first, second, and - if necessary - third), whereas the 50-70
    time is recorded in top gear (this shows flexibility).
    
    Re .28
    
    The beauty of a really quick car is that no-one dares to take you on in
    a traffic lights 'grand prix' for fear of being beaten!  And just how
    often would you come across an integrale at the lights?  Now, on the
    open road it's a different matter... ;-)
    
    
    Dave.

>>    The beauty of a really quick car is that no-one dares to take you on in
>>    a traffic lights 'grand prix' for fear of being beaten!  And just how
>>    often would you come across an integrale at the lights?  Now, on the
>>    open road it's a different matter... ;-)
    
    Unfortunately this hasn't been my experience.  I've found that high
    performance cars (eg. Ferraris, Lotuses and the like) don't tend to
    bother, but if (depending on the mentality of the driver) a lower
    performance car should pull alongside then thats a different matter. 
    I've had most cars ranging from a Nissan Micra to a 2.3 Granada estate
    try to race me from the lights !   I prefer to let them get on with it
    then pull off afterwards.
    
    
    Shaun.
    

    
    Yep, it's usually true that sportscar attract the traffic light racers.
    
    After all, what's the point of saying "I burnt off a Fiesta 1.1"? :^)
    
    Just wander into your local tonight and listen to the XR3i owner
    spouting on about how he took that Porsche or blew away that M5! 
    
    Mark
    
    PS I'll be on the third stool from the left! :^)

>>    Just wander into your local tonight and listen to the XR3i owner
>>    spouting on about how he took that Porsche or blew away that M5! 
    
    
    Not too difficult at 27 mph !
    
    
    Shaun.

    
    For an XR3i, it's an achievement! :^)
    
    SORRY FORD FANS! 
    
    Mark

    >> For an XR3i, it's an achievement! :^)
    
    For an XR3i, beating anything at the lights is an achievement... ;-)
    (advance apologies to any/all XR3i readers!)
    
    Okay okay, I take your (collective) points.  But what I'm trying to say
    is that, with something like a Ferrari, you've really got nothing to
    prove.  Besides, if the 0-60 is important, then why do you want a
    Ferrari - a 911 gets off the line better than anything else I've driven
    - right Shaun?
    
    Dave.

>>    Ferrari - a 911 gets off the line better than anything else I've driven
>>    - right Shaun?
    
    I can't disagree with that ! (there was that incident with the Micra
    though ;^)
    
    
    Shaun.
    

    
    whats so quick about a 911, 928, 959 porsche ?? 
    ...can they lift the front wheels......no
    ...can they corner as quick as a GSXR1100.......no
    ...can the accelerate as quick as an FZR1000.....no
    ...can they filter through traffic jams......no
    ...
    ...do they cost 10X more than a decent bike....yes
    ...are they less enviromentally friendly than a bike....yes
    ...is the cost of ownership more than for a bike......yes
    ...do they stop quicker (150-0) than a bike....yes
    ... 
    
       I know this is the cars note......but I just wanted to talk about
    performance and cost.....
    
    Alan.
    

    
    Do their riders consider that the Highway code doesn't apply to them?
    
    Do they where clothes the same colour as their car?
    
    Do they travel on the rear wheel at stupid speeds through built up
    areas?
    
    Give me a Porsche driver any day! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    
>>    Do their riders consider that the Highway code doesn't apply to them?
  
      No more than car drivers 
      
>>    Do they where clothes the same colour as their car?
  
      No - and what's that got to do with anything?
      
>>    Do they travel on the rear wheel at stupid speeds through built up
     areas?
   
      Never tried this - my bike prefers to run on front and rear wheel 
    
>>    Give me a Porsche driver any day! :^)
  
      Which would you rather have? - 20 Porsches in front of you in the
      traffic queue, or 20 bikes disappearing out of your way? :-)
    
    
      Elaine
       

    
    Hello Elaine! 
    
    I thought I'd elicit a response from somewhere, but you've been very
    quiet recently, so I wasn't expecting you to reply.
    
    Unless my copy of the HC is vastly out of date (well ok it is, but...)
    even motorcyclists aren't allowed to drive between lanes of moving
    traffic, which is something I see _EVERY_ day (more or less) and have 
    _NEVER_ seen a Porsche attempt! :^)
    
    All the other points are totally irrelevant (although I think matching
    your clothes to your vehicle is best left to _real_ racers, but that's 
    only an opinion):^)
    
    As for the queue, I'll take the one with the bikes please, provided
    they actually know how to ride and aren't all busy trying to weave in 
    and out of each other and flick in each others wing mirrors!
    
    Mark
    
    PS I bet a bike can't pull as high Gs as a Porsche, either.

	Re: bikes

	When I used to own Porsches, I was never refused entrance
	to a pub because of my mode of transport ;-)

	JJ.

    
    re: .36
    
    To paraphrase George Orwell ("Animal Farm"):
    
    	"Four wheels good, two wheels bad"
    
    Mike H.
    

    Re: driving on rear wheel(s)
    
    I don't know about the fellow with the turbo, but I've driven my
    Porsche('70 911E) on its back wheels frequently. Not nearly as long and
    as pronounced as I have on bikes, but when you're driving you KNOW they
    are off the ground.
    
    A good bike and a good Porsche are a GOOD combination!!
    
    Bob

    Re .42
    
    The front end sticks down pretty well on newer Porsches.  I can even
    lift off the power in mid-bend, and all that happens is the line
    tightens... mind you, I haven't tried this in the wet or on the limit
    (or both) yet ;^)
    
    You can't really argue bikes vs. cars.  Bikes are faster accelerating. 
    And cheaper.  And more economical.  A friend has a Yamaha Genesis (a
    couple of years old now), and this _canes_ my 911 on acceleration.  So
    if I like performance, then why don't _I_ own I bike?  Because, simply
    put, they scare the living s**t out of me.  Simple really.
    
    
    Dave_who_prefers_lots_of_metal_around_him.

    
    re 39.
    
     Mark,
        last year Performance Bike magazine had an article testing a
    Porsche 959? (�56,000) against an FZR1000 (�5,700) "past the line
    performance" the FZR was first every time with exception to stopping
    (so cars stop quicker, I've got the scars to prove this). 
    The test were...
    0-70 straight line.
    30-100 straight line
    slalom (suprised most motorcyclists as cars should corner faster)
    standing � mile
    top speed (gained at test site)
    70-0 straight line (??)
    and a few others
    
    Coupled with cost of ownership and enviromental issues the bike would
    seem to be the better performer. 
    Both vehicles had professional drivers/riders
    
      Alan.
     

    Re .44
    
    I'd rather Lands End to Fort William, on a wet January night...

    
    Well, I've no idea about what a FZRZXXSEWE Whatsit is, but at �56,000 it
    wasn't a 959 they were testing! (Maybe the spare wheel?).
    
    I doubt a Honda 90 could burn off an F40 and I KNOW an F1 car laps
    faster than a GP bike, so the car _MUST_ corner better.
    
    In pure performance terms there's always SOMETHING faster, but I
    would never buy a bike in preference to a car. For an adrenalin rush 
    along a bike is probably pound for pound unbeatable, but I make other
    demands of my transport (like it keeps me dry, warm, in one piece, not 
    looking like I slept in my suit, and will carry me, the Mrs and 2 others 
    to the pub, Austria, wherever) which mean that an exocet missle on wheels
    is not a very practical option.
    
    Then again, I'm probably odd in that I've never liked motorcycles and
    when I was 16 I was simply counting the days until I was 17 instead of 
    risking life and limb on a FS1-E! :^)
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    Spot on.  And it wasn't a 959 - it was a 911 Turbo.  Funny I should
    remember that... 
    
    The reason the bike beat the car in the cornering tests is due to the  
    rider of the FZRetc etc was a total nutter and rode the wheels of the
    thing.  Brave chap, but rather unrepresentative of what a bike vs. a
    car can do.  Anyway, the only people who comment on bikes vs. cars are
    bike owners - we all know that a superbike has better acceleration than
    any road car (at least up to around 120) so it's a bit of a rathole to
    try to compare the performance.
    
    Dave.

>>
    Unless my copy of the HC is vastly out of date (well ok it is, but...)
    even motorcyclists aren't allowed to drive between lanes of moving
    traffic, which is something I see _EVERY_ day (more or less) and have 
    _NEVER_ seen a Porsche attempt! :^)
>>
    In all seriuosness - I'm not sure whether moving between lines of
    traffic is allowed or not. I think in the highway code there was 
    a mention of being careful if you do, which sort of implies that it
    isn't illegal.  Anyone know?  I've moved past stationary Police cars,
    and even been along side them, and never had a telling off!
    
    I think if bikes had to wait in line - there would be far fewer on
    the road - I know that if I had to sit in a queue, I'd rather sit in a
    comfortable box with the radio on than freeze/melt/get soaked on a
    bike.  I would still have the bike for 'fun' - but not going to and
    from work.     
    
    As for being refused service in a pub, because of my outfit, I think
    the perfect solution is to go into that pub 'acceptably' dressed, order
    a round, and then remember that the pub doesn't serve bikers - and
    leave, with the unpaidfor drinks on the bar! :-) If I can go into a pub
    dressed in leather trousers and jacket - I don't see why the addition
    of a helmet makes me a disreputable  biker!  (and no comments from 
    Mr Saxby  please :-) ) 
     

    
    Re .48
    
    I was only going to agree entirely with your comments on dress codes
    and pubs, but, as you don't want me to, I won't! :^)
    
    Mark
    
    PS Don't we owe you dinner?
    

    
    
    Mark...
         and their I was thinking that 'we' were discussing performance and
    cost... :-) 
    
    959 ?? it was the new one that was released early last year ..
    
    F1/GP performance differentiation is largely due to adhesion/tyre
    performance than vehicle manufacture.
    
    Can I watch when you try to get 4 adults to Austria in a
    Porsche/Ferrari/lotus. ;-)...
    
    I also have a list of must haves for my chosen vehicle..
    
    360� unobstructed view, economy, cheap to run, tractorbility/torque,
    16valve engine, unleaded petrol (would prefer AVGAS), Stealth like
    speed and handling less than �55 for an anual excise license and the
    unsurpassable feeling of freedom (you can't get a cabriolet cheaper
    than a bike).
    
    re: Pope vs Rabbi.
      why, they both believe in God, but just read the good book
    differently.  
    :-)
    
    Alan 
    
                

Hi,
    
Well, I just test-drove the Ferrari 308GTS I was talking about when I opened 
this note. The salesman was very open and honest and said that the prices of 
Ferraris were coming down. He could see them coming down a bit further but not 
a great deal because of the differential between a 'good' and a 'bad' Ferrari. 
Like a tatty old something or other might go for �10k, a fair one for �15k 
which means the cost of getting into the Ferrari market with a reasonably clean 
drivable Ferrari is about �25k-�30k. That makes �40k for a neat clean 
definitely nice Ferrari 308GTS not far off as low as it can go. I suppose it's 
the reverse of when house prices were rising and first-time buyers couldn't get 
in. It meant there had to be a differential in price. With the Ferraris, �10k 
seems to be the rock bottom, which means there has to be a differential.

Anyway, it was a great drive. Quite a noisy vehicle and the gear shift was a 
bit awkward but it just wanted to go... I thought I was going to stall it at
one point but there's so much torque at tick-over it just pulls away. It's 
quite difficult to get it into second gear, but I didn't really need it at the 
moderate speeds I was driving at (well you can't really thrash it when the 
salesman is sat next to you can you).

Here's a question though: If money were no object, which dealership would you 
get to look after your Ferrari for you. I've only looked around two - 
Maranello, and FAF (Atlanta in the States). Maranello definitely had the edge 
on appearance and they do treat you well as a customer - what other dealers are 
there who offer an excellent service (excuse the pun!).

Steve.

.48�    isn't illegal.  Anyone know?  I've moved past stationary Police cars,
.48�    and even been along side them, and never had a telling off!

     But I think the note (.47?) referred to the times when two cars in
lanes 2 & 3 are doing 60mph+ and bikers try to nip between them.

    
    	re .50..
    
    	Well I'm not going to enter into this particular "discussion" on
    	what's "best" coz I enjoy both modes, but Alan..
    
    	..how do you manage 360� unobstructed vision with a brain-bucket
    	on your head?  Swivel-neck, perhaps?  8-)
    
    	Andy.

    
    re: lane splitting...
    
        If both lanes of traffic (2 way highway) are stationary it is
    accepted/expected for a motorcycle to pass between the lanes (whilst
    using caution). Whilst I was an instuctor (part time/weekends) one of
    my trainees failed their test for not maintaining a good progress/road
    awareness......the cause of this.....sitting in stationary traffic when
    the ability to pass safely arose.... Roadcraft advises it and the
    Police do it.....so it must be legal.....
    
    
    Alan 

    
    re: 360� with crash helmet....try bending and turning at the waist
    aswell as the neck....
    
    ..that sums up the Friday afternoon lessons on "paying for performance"
    
    sorry to digress this note.......
    
    
    Alan..
    

�    isn't illegal.  Anyone know?  I've moved past stationary Police cars,
�    and even been along side them, and never had a telling off!
    
    I thought it was illegal as you are not allowed to create an extra
    lane.  Just imagine a car moving from the outside lane to the inside
    lane (a rarity i admit ;^) and just before he moves a bike decides he
    can get through the gap !
    
    I don't mind, and help where ever possible, bikes squeezing through the
    gaps when the traffic is stationery, but I've seen quite a number try
    it on the move as well !
    
    
    Shaun.

�    Can I watch when you try to get 4 adults to Austria in a
�    Porsche/Ferrari/lotus. ;-)...
 
    I've often had four people in mine, though its is a we bit cramped, then
    again i've seen two adults and three children on a Honda moped before
    now ( in Spain ).
    
    Garry.
    
       
    

A friend is looking at a '77 308 GTB and would like to verify some details.

(This is all US based, but the European version info would be interesting too)

It has 26k miles on it and the asking price is aroun $39,000.  Is that
reasonable?  He's seen others around the same age and mileage but the prices
have been in the mid-to-high 40's and even some up in the 50's.

It has the original paint and it looks in very fine shape (photos, but he will
personally look at the car before buying, of course.)

It has carbs (correct for that year), but we're not sure if it has fibreglass
body panels or not.  When did they go to steel?

It's at a dealer who deals in exotics and he will transport the car here if
my friend decides to buy it (about 500 miles away), so it appears the dealer
has some integrity.  Are there any quick things he should look at to determine
if the car is a good buy for the money?

The books I have list the hp as 255 (6000 rpm?) and torque at 210 ft lbs at
5100 rpm.  What would the US specs be?

Thanks
Dave

    Dave,
    
    If it's fibre glass, it's a steal at 39K.  I will have to check some of
    my info on what to look out for specific to that model and year.  Have
    your fried take it to a Ferrari dealer to have a thourough check up, it
    will cost a few hundred but is well worth it.  In your area you could
    take it to FAF just ourside of Atlanta.  They are supposed to be very
    dependable.  What dealer is he getting it from and what city are they
    located in?  The general rule of thumb is to buy a Ferrari with
    reasonable amount of miles with a full service record.  If it has too
    few miles then most of the rubber in the suspension dries out and is
    very expesive to replace.  Have yor friend drop by FAF and ask
    questions.  They should take an interest especially if they want his
    future service business.
    
    I'll look up the year and model tonight and get back to you.
    
    regards,
    JP

The dealer's in Springfield, MO.  I have suggested to him that he ask the
local dealers what to look for.  I'll make sure he gives them a call.

Thanks
Dave

    .58�A friend is looking at a '77 308 GTB and would like to verify some details.
    
    Good taste. Should be fibre-glass and carbs. That's the most sought
    after version.
    
    .58�It has 26k miles on it and the asking price is aroun $39,000.  Is that
    
    From what I know of current prices over here, that sounds reasonable.
    As noted earlier your friend should get a full inspection and a test
    drive.
    
    Things to know about 308s: the carbs get out of sync very quickly and
    the spark plugs also wear very quickly. Your friend should be prepared
    to work on the engine quite often. When well adjusted the 308 (GTB and
    GT4) is excellent, much quicker than 308PI or even 328.

    Dave,
    
    I haven't been able to find out too much to look for.  If ti's
    fibreglass, he has a good deal.  #1 thing to make sure is that the
    linkage of the carbs should be inspected thoroughly.  All the
    infomation says that once the carbs are set properly it should give no
    problems.  However if the linkage isn't 100% it will only cause
    problems (read $$$$$).  Also check suspension very carefully for dried
    out bits.  The miles are low so that means at some point the car wasn't
    driven very much.  Other than that all my info says to get it too a
    reliable Ferrari mechanic and have them give it a serious once over.
    
    1 other thing was that there have been some complaints about the
    steering being a little heavy, this is supposedly very normal for the
    earlier cars.
    
    If I come across any other info I'll post it.
    
    regards,
    JP

The dealer has sold the '77 my friend was interested in, but now they say they
are trying to get a hold of another '77 with only 10k miles for about the same
price!  I've warned Werner (my friend) about the problems with low mileage, but
he would have it checked out locally before buying it anyway.

But now he's not quite sure about buying the Ferrari.  His main reason was to
get something to replace his '90 735i, but now he may keep it.  We went up
to Nashville, TN (240 miles each way) for the national Studebaker meet and took
the 735i.  It only had 6400 miles on it when we left and this was the first
real road trip for the car, all the other times he uses it is just around
town!

He drove up and I had lots of fun playing with the CD player, computer and
climate control systems..... :-)  I also made some comment about the little
BMW flashlight in the glove box.  I also discovered the seat warmers work well,
very well, except that it was already 80F outside and I didn't need my seat
warmed!  (I love pushing buttons)

While at the swap meet I bought a head gasket and other stuff for my 1924 Stude,
and found some interesting facts about my car.  There is a little 2" light on
the passenger side of the dashboard and it turns out this is a flashlight!  It
clips into the dash and it attached to a 3' retractable cord.  So much for
modern innovations in cars!  When we got home we tried it and it works just
great (well, the pulling part, I don't have a battery in the car yet.)

I got to drive the 735i home and it's a 'dangerous' car (for your license).  
Cruising at 80-85 and it feels like 50.  Hit the gas and go (from 85).  
Werner liked cruising in it too, so he just may keep it a while longer and 
enjoy it.

Dave

    Dave,
    
    Your friend should be aware of what it means to drive a Ferrari. He
    should forget about eventless morning cold starts, easy riding, CD
    player, air conditionning, talking to passengers, ... etc
    
    Driving a Ferrari is something you WANT to do absolutely (until you're
    fed up with breakdowns, being unable to meet your appointments,
    spending a fortune in garages, ....
    
    The only time Ferrari owners are happy is when they look at the car in
    the showroom and think they could buy it.

    If he is interested in high performance GT's without all the hassles
    mentionned above he should buy ...
    
    			a Porsche	928, CD player, etc
    					911, raw performance

	Well, well... the usual Porsche fanatic's anti-Ferrari propaganda.

	Ferraris are no problem if they're looked after properly (i.e.
	serviced when they're meant to be by a Ferrari dealer). Having
	said that, I've only my step-brother's word for it...

	JJ.

	P.s. the "spending a fortune in garages" bit was right though...

    .66�	Well, well... the usual Porsche fanatic's anti-Ferrari propaganda.
    
    I was speaking of experience ... 

Actually, we were discussing some alternatives during the trip and the 928 did
come up as a possibility.  They are a lot cheaper than the Ferrari (used anyway)
and one of his two kids *might* even fit in the back 'seat'.

But, he's still got the '56 supercharged 190 SL to work on so it doesn't look
like he'll be trading the 735 in soon.

Dave