Conference terri::cars_uk

Exchange rate - SFr 2.57 = �1

					   SFr		   �

Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 Twin Spark		 35,600		13,852
Audi 80 2.0				 28,150		10,953
BMW 525i				 48,150		18,735
Citro�n ZX Volcane 1.9i			 26,510		10,315
Fiat Tipo 1.6 S				 19,850		 7,723
Ford Fiesta 1.3i CLX 3 door		 15,400		 5,992
Honda Civic 1.5i Joker			 17,900		 6,965
Mercedes 190 E 2.5-16			 67,600		26,303
Nissan Primera 2.0-16V GT 5 door	 34,250		13,327
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa/Nova 1.4 GSi	 19,975		 7,772
Peugeot 205 Gti 1.9			 23,300		 9,066
Renault 21 TXI				 30,850		12,003
Rover 216 GSi				 26,900		10,467
Seat Ibiza Special 1.2			 13,750		 5,350
Toyota Celica 2.0 Gti			 32,890		12,797
VW Passat GL 16V			 33,400		12,996

Exchange rate - FFr 9.77 = �1

					   FF		   �

Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 Twin Spark		143,600		14,698
Audi 80 2.0 Confort			127,450		13,045
BMW 525i				217,500		22,262
Citro�n ZX Volcane 1.9i			113,300		11,596
Fiat Tipo 1.6 S				 68,900		 7,052
Ford Fiesta 1.3i CLX 3 door		 59,200		 6,059
Honda Civic 1.5i Joker			 93,900		 9,611
Mercedes 190 E 2.5-16			315,000		32,241
Nissan Primera 2.0-16V GT 5 door	149,900		15,343
Opel/Vauxhall Corsa/Nova 1.6 GSi	 79,800		 8,168
Peugeot 205 Gti 1.9			101,300		10,368
Renault 21 TXI				133,200		13,633
Rover 216 GSi				105,500		10,798
Seat Ibiza Special 1.2			 50,900		 5,209
Toyota Celica 2.0 Gti			153,450		15,706
VW Passat GL 16V			137,400		14,063

Note Audi 80 model is "Confort"

    
    This is a pointless exercise. Trim levels differ dramatically between
    countries even for GSi, Ghia badges etc, therefore such a comparison
    cannot be made.
    
    Chris
    

    Surely not so...
    
    Just taking 'my' car (ZX Volcane) shows it to be over 2K pounds more
    expensive in the UK -v- Switzerland... and I bet the Swiss one has to
    have a cat (which Citroen don't even offer as an option in the UK
    model). About the only thing a Swiss ZX 1.9i might have different is
    perhaps electric and heated mirrors both sides, rather than just
    unheated mirrors with electric only on the passenger side...
    
    Anyone in Switzerland know the full ZX Volcane spec.???
    
    Also, just take a shifty at the price of an Audi 2.0E in the UK -v-
    Switzerland... there's around a 40% difference (if not more) there: I
    suppose that's explained by the fact that a Swiss Audi doesn't have
    electric mirrors whereas a UK one does, or some such cosmetic
    difference? Cobblers. It's because Audi market their cars as "upmarket,
    BMW-like" in the UK, and we fall for it.... In Europe (particularly the
    Germanic countries), it seems to me that there is no snobbery attached
    to Mercs, Audis, BMs, etc. People there assume they will get a quality
    car, not have to have one marketed to them.
    
                                               
    
    |SD

    I think the small matter of local taxes might have some bearing....
    
    Are those prices base, or tax inclusive?
    
    Laurie.

    I'm not sure if this is the right note, but it is to do with car prices
    in the USA....
    
    I read in the February edition of the Robb Report (American mag), an
    article on how someone in the market for, say a BMW, could save upto 12% 
    on the US list price by popping over to jolly old Europe to collect the
    car, personally.
    
    The article listed out a number of European manufacturers who catered
    for the personal import/export market... Jaguar and Aston Martin were
    among them. (Rover was not listed, but I would be surprised if an
    American wanting to buy a Range Rover could not do the same as the guy
    wanting to buy a Jaguar... I suspect that Range Rover were not listed
    as the vehicle is classed as a truck in the States, and the article was
    aimed strictly at the (well-off) car buyer.)
    
    Anyway, sticking to the BMW example, BMW assumes that if you've gone to
    all the trouble of coming from America to Germany to collect your new
    Beamer, then you'll probably want to make a bit of a holiday of your
    trip. So they fit a European-spec radio/cassette to your car
    (different, wider band widths on Euro radios compared with US
    equivalents)... when your car finally arrives in the States it gets
    fitted with the US spec radio/cassette. If you choose to buy your car
    during the ski season, then BMW oblige with a weekend ski-pass for a
    (nearby) ski resort.
    
    Some of the manufacturers offer stuff like tours round their
    factories/museums. Hotel arrangements can be made as well.
    
    All the manufacturers listed  ensure that all customs/shipping 
    paperwork/details are organised. 
    
    The buyer litteraly only has to turn up to collect and drive/accompany 
    his/her new car. And remember all of this is to save upto 12% on (the
    already cheaper than the UK) US list price.
    
    Re: a few back which queried the relevance of comparing UK prices with
    car prices in other countries because of the different spec levels of
    the same vehicle in different countries.... (deep breath)... Last time
    I looked in the US of A there was a choice of at least 100 cars under
    the $10,000 mark, and included in this list was the Mazda MX-3.
    
    Now if you use the "spec" argument, then that would seem to infer that 
    it's very doubtful as to whether, in the USA,  the MX-3 comes with an 
    engine or not (comparing the UK price of the car)... or am I rambling
    again.
    
    Regudgitation
    
    Stephen  
    
    

RE: .3

Of course this is true - I pointed out an example where the Corsa GSi is
a 1.4 litre in Switzerland and a 1.6 litre in France. However, I think it is
putting it strongly to say that it is 'pointless'!

Since you mention it, options themselves are interesting to compare across 
countries. 

I'm interested in buying a VW Camper T4.

Here are some engine options:	2.4l diesel	2.5l 110hp petrol

	Switzerland		�  800		�1,000
	Britain			�1,800		�2,500

It was this discrepancy - which I find inexplicable - which prompted me to
write the note. I thought that it was a good way to start off an interesting
discussion?

RE: Another reply. All petrol cars in Switzerland have to have catalysers -
that is why they stopped selling the mini (though I think that they're just
starting to re-sell Mini-Coopers).

Laurie, these prices are inclusive and tax and delivery for Switzerland - I
cannot say whether this is the case for France (likely though).

Cheers

Steve

...and I would still like to see lists if other people are prepared to help
out!

   If anyone wants to know the price of their car in Switzerland/France then
let me - I have complete price listings (except that Porsche seem to be missing
from my French magazine)...

    
    Will Swiss and French dealers come down on the asking price as much as
    dealers in the UK?
    
    I got 15.3% off my present car. Probably not a record but still a
    substantial amount.
    
    Chris
    

    I think that the prices quoted are not on-the-road prices in France.
    
    You still have to pay to have the Carte-Grise registered, and,
    depending on which type/power of car you have, is how expensive it is.
    (Carte-Grise is the log book and plates). This can range from anything
    from �40 (for a fiesta etc...) to �240 for a larger car. This is how 
    the french 'penalise' large car drivers. Of course the same system works 
    for Road-tax aswell! ;-(

    Here in Belgium, prices are always quoted ex-tax.
    
    Laurie.

    Swiss dealers will come down 5-12% not much more to my knowledge.
    
    We (Digital) have deals with many garages to go the around 12%
    discount.
    
    Paul

    The specifications can vary wildly, and do make a significant
    difference.
    
    One example: Citroen BX GTi - in the UK has ABS, electric windows,
    electric sunroof, alloy wheels, electric windows, fog lamps,
    tintend glass, six speaker radio/cassette. I guess the ZX Volcane
    will be fairly similar.
    
    In France - none of the above. The options must cost between �1500 and
    �2000 or so....
    
    Peter.
    

Here are the prices in Finland:

Exchange rate	8.05 FIM = 1 Pound	      FIM       Pounds

Alfa Romeo 164 2.0 Twin Spark             209,900 	26,074
Audi 80 2.0E                              149,900 	18,621
BMW 525i (incl. extras)                   359,500 	44,658
Citro�n ZX Volcane 1.9i                   119,900 	14,894
Fiat Tipo 1.6 S                            95,600	11,876
Ford Fiesta 1.3i Fun 3 door                67,200 	 8,348
Honda Civic 1.5 LSi 4 door                109,900 	13,652
Mercedes 190 E 2.5-16                     502,300 	62,397
Nissan Primera 2.0e Sedan GT              189,600 	23,553
Opel Corsa 1.4i Swing 4 door               68,100	 8,460
Peugeot 205 Gti 1.9                       123,600   	15,354
Renault 21 TXI                            164,900 	20,484
Rover 216 GSi                                   -            -
Seat Ibiza Special 1.2                     62,900	 7,814
Toyota Celica 2.0 Gti                     196,700 	24,435
VW Passat GL 2.0                          187,900 	23,342

BTW: The most expensive car here seems to be:
Ferrari 512 TR                          2,000,000      248,447
    
The prices include taxes...
    
- Jyri -
    

     
    Jyri , 
    
    Mercedes 190 E 2.5-16                     502,300 	62,397
    
    I don't doubt you info but is this correct ? !!!!
    

    I am sorry to tell, but - yes it is correct...
    
    The cheapest Mercedes here is 190 E 1.8 which cost app. 200,000 FIM =>
    app. 25,000 Pounds.
    
    The cheapest 'car' here is Lada which costs app. 35,000 FIM => 4,300
    Pounds...
    
    - Jyri -

    I would be interested to see our Noters completing the exercise in the
    spirit in which it was offered. I expect the price to be the amount of
    money I would have to give to the Seller to enable me to drive away my
    new car. ( In the UK this figure should include Car tax, VA Tax, Number
    Plates, Delivery charge, Road tax & any other unavoidable expense, less
    any discount I could REASONABLY expect to receive). Hopefully we should
    quote nearest possible equivalent.
    
    I just do not believe that we in the UK pay a similar price to that of 
    our friends in Belgium, Holland etc.
    
    TJ.

    The prices quoted from Finland are almost exactly the same as the Irish
    Republic prices, give or take(mostly take) fifty quid or so.
    You dont have to travel that far to be ripped off. 
     ;'>

Ahhh Gi'day...�

	  German cars are generally cheaper in the US than Germany.

I've a quote of interest for those after a new MR2...

A Japanese work colleague said (Oct 91) that a fully specified MR2 with air-con
leather seats etc cost the equivalent of �9,500.
What Car May92 quotes 18,395.
Shipping & import duty will add a large amount (50%?), but there might be ways
to reduce this (register in Japan for 6 months before importing?)

    I'm in the US at the moment, on TEP, and I am astounded by two things;
    how cheap cars are here, and how bad the American cars are.
    
    The local Subaru dealer in Nashua is advertising brand new saloons for
    $7,995 delivered, inclusive of all taxes. That's about �5,000 for a
    four door saloon, with power steering, air conditioning, radio, power
    locks and windows. I can't remember whether this model is sold in the
    UK, but imagine an Astra or Escort to the same spec - you'd be talking
    at least twice as much.
    
    Now to the dis-advantages; I've got a Chevrolet Cavalier as a hire car.
    It's a four door saloon, about the same size as the European Cavalier.
    The car has an old fashioned three speed auto; no power, a very poor
    radio, no cassette. It does have a/c and PAS.
    
    The power door locks lock automatically when you move the gear lever
    out of park. It doesn't open all the locks when you unlock the drivers
    door. A gong sounds if you insert the ignition key with the drivers'
    door open. It sounds again if you start the engine without the seat
    belt. The seat belts are attached to the door(!). Oh, and you can't
    move the gear lever out of park unless you press the footbrake.
    The suspension is terrible on the badly rutted roads in New England.
    It crashes from one bump to the next.
    
    As you can tell, I'm not too impressed.
    
    Mind you, it's almost worth it to get a *real* American sports car to
    import into the UK...
    
    Peter.		(who is really missing the BX's suspension!)

Re .21

Well, the Chevrolet Cavalier isn't considered to be a sporty-handling car by
many Americans. Like most GM products in the US, it's targeted at a broad
market, trying to meet the needs of many car buyers, most of whom use the car
to take the kids to school, pick up some groceries, drive to-and-from work,
and drive to Grandma's on the weekend. 

The power door locks and seat-belt on the door thingies are the result of our
wonderful government trying to protect us from ourselves. The car manufacturers
can get around the seat-belt-on-the-door by installing an airbag, but that
costs extra money. 

The brake-required-to-get-the-car-out-of-park is a direct result of the Audi
"Unintended Acceleration" problem from a few years ago. Though it was 
sufficiently proven to most people that the problem was with the driver's
in question not knowing which pedal they were pressing, many car manufacturers
have taken this step to protect themselves from the all-American lawsuit.

The door-open gongs have been in American cars since the ealy 70's, if not
sooner. I remember my '73 Ford Pinto had the sealt-belt buzzer and the door-ajar
buzzer. Again, it's the big brothers in the Federal Government protecting us.
8^)....

Why do the American auto manfacturer's build this type of car???  Why is the 
American auto business in such trouble???  Could it be that the questions are
related???

Bob.

    Coming from another yank with a Cavalier:
    	Mine is a 1983.  It has gone 260,000 miles at around 32MPG.  Until
    last summer 230K the original engine and transmission hadn't been
    worked on in any significant way.  At that time the original engine
    needed new piston rings and valve lapping, etc.  Since I had a spare
    engine handy I installed it.  Besides that other than routine
    maintenance the car has only needed a couple of sets of alternator
    brushes and a couple of wheel bearings.  This has all been with the
    previously mentioned pounding on potholed and dirt roads, etc.
    	The american manufacturers may not make the most appealing car, but
    when they get it right they build something that will outlast a
    japanese car by a factor of two or more.
    						John
    

Re: .21

    The power door locks lock automatically when you move the gear lever
    out of park. It doesn't open all the locks when you unlock the drivers
    door. 

This is an excellent security feature.  I have always thought that the
common system here where all doors unlock at once is really stupid.  An
ill-intentioned person can easily (especially after dark) hide at the 
other side of the car and open the door to get in and attack the driver
when it unlocks remotely.

	A gong sounds if you insert the ignition key with the drivers'
    door open. It sounds again if you start the engine without the seat
    belt. The seat belts are attached to the door(!). Oh, and you can't
    move the gear lever out of park unless you press the footbrake.

These are all safety features.  The gong can easily be avoided by closing
the doors and fastening the seat belts before you put in the keys and
start the engine.  The need to operate the brake is not confined to the
US.  I parked next to a large Merc at the supermarket last week and took
a look inside.  It has exactly this feature fitted.

jb

    re .21 and so on;
    
    I was in the office over the weekend, and used the empty car
    park to test the ABS on my hired Chevrolet Cavalier....
    
    I'm pleased I haven't needed them, as they are pretty useless!
    
    The ABS on this car allows the wheels to lock up, and then releases the
    rear wheels, leaving the front end still locked! I guess it's a cheap
    mechanical system, but the performance of it is not too useful.
    
    It was the same in both the dry and the wet.
    
    Peter.
    

>>    park to test the ABS on my hired Chevrolet Cavalier....
    
    Obviously none too effective in preventing wheel lock-up (even if
    that is what it is for !), but maybe it has some benefit if you
    brake hard with left/right wheels on different (wet/dry ?) surfaces.
    
    J.R.

Some prices from Denmark

			Dk		�
Audi 80 2.0E		280.000		25.400
Alfa 164 Twinspark	360.000		32.700
Mercedes 190 1.8E	400.000		36.400
Lancia Thema Turbo 16V	430.000		39.100
VOLVO 850		400.000		36.400

This is due to a special Taxrate of 180% !!!!

For the numberplates the rate per year for the above cars
is approx. 275�

The average lifetime for a car in denmark is more than
14 years.

Rgds
Lars

    Which cars do better than average?
    
    Better still, is there a table around somewhere? 
    
    Malcolm