Conference terri::cars_uk

    �which cars are the most secure
    
    Vauxhalls with deadlocks are the best idea I've come across.
    
    I believe the new Astra range now has these fitted as standard.
    
    Roy

    
    Look for a new house/job seems to be the best answer.
    
    Thefts are more related to region that type of car.
    
    Mark

    Chris,
    
    Get a Peugeot 309 Diesel, I don't think anyone will try to nick one of
    those, besides if they do, then you could always catch up with them on
    foot. :-)
    
    Eric
    

    I've got the info sent by the home office. It lists cars in high medium
    and low risk categories.
    
    I'll try and dig it out.
    
    Richard

    
    Never mind how secure your car is... how about the 'accessories'? 
    A friend of ours came back to his car (Westfield 7) in Tilehurst
    Station car park yesterday eve, to find it sitting on it's brake disks!
    All five wheels had been stolen during the day. Luckily it seems that
    there has been no other damage done to it, but it is not easy trying to
    get wheels onto a car which is sitting on it's sump!
    
      

    Re .5
    
    Well as my Calibra has never (not since I've owned it anyway) been
    to Kensington I can only guess that the average car thief there may
    have a different aim to the joy-rider in Leeds. More likely to be 
    nicking a Ferrari or Porsche for resale than impressing the lads was 
    my slightly tongue in cheek point.
    
    Like you said Cavaliers (and Calibras) are pretty good, but nothing
    is secure from theft if someone is really determined, so a good rule
    of thumb is (where possible) don't leave your car where it's likely
    to be nicked or broken into (deadlocks don't prevent someone dropping 
    a rock through your windscreen and nicking the radio).In fact a relative 
    of mine had just that happen to him outside his in-laws house on a 
    sleepy housing estate, so nowhere is REALLY safe.
    
    A number of noters have commented that car theft is a serious problem
    in certain areas and even having a secure car isn't going to guarantee
    that it won't be stolen or broken into if car theft is a common
    occurence. 
    
    The best defence, although not a very appealing one, would seem to be
    to drive a car that no-one would want to nick. A Trabant, perhaps?
    
    Mark

    
    Well, who'd want a car which had been driven into a wall? You may
    have a point.
    
    Still a minute to get in is hardly likely to discourage many thiefs,
    if they really fancy a GSi Cavalier or a Fiesta RS Turbo (witness this
    conference).
    
    What is the answer? I don't know, but it seems that that car security
    is more of a selling point than a genuine benefit, although it is good
    to see manufacturers making an effort, especially the big ones (where
    do the likes of BMW and Mercedes come in such tables?). If you think 
    I'm wrong about car security being a selling point, just take a walk
    around your local Halfords and see how many 'car security' products
    there are on the shelves! Someone's making a lot of money out of these
    things.
    
    I must admit that the very poor showing of the Rovers is dissapointing.
    
    One last question. Was the 'breaker-in' allowed to damage the car in
    trying to obtain access?
    
    Mark

    Surely the best way to stop yer car being nicked, is to fit a clamp to
    it...
    
    Laurie.

>>>>>>>>>. Besides if I saw a car clamped so no one
           stole it, I think I would put their windows in just to be as equally 
           annoying.

           Keith.

    
    
      Do that very often do you???

    
    I don't think we're really disagreeing Keith, Halfords (etc) used to
    sell electronic ignition systems widely and now they're virtually 
    impossible to get, due to the widespread standard fitment of such
    things.
     
    �    The 'breaker-in' as you put it was not allowed to damage the cars 
    �   is any way. Which, if the would be thief is after your GTi GSi or 
    �   whatever, is unlikely to do.
    
    I'd disagree with this. You're assumption is that the thief wants your
    car to keep. The majority of thefts these days are of the steal, thrash
    and crash type. Why should a thief worry about scratching the paintwork
    if he intends to burn your car out or plough it into a tree? Even the 
    organised theft for spares thief isn't going to worry unduly about
    damaging the door panel or breaking a window. Whatever you reckon about 
    Vauxhalls and Fords and Gtis, etc they're probably not worth the effort
    to try and resell, only cars like Mercs, BMWs, Rollers, Porsches, etc 
    are really worth the hassle of re-registering, doctoring chassis
    plates etc and people involved in stealing them for resale won't be
    disuaded by a minute to get in without special tools (you can bet THEY
    have them!).
    
    I'm all in favour of better security for cars and like the idea of my
    car having deadlocks and a standard alarm, but I'm under no illusion
    that if someone really wants to nick my car that they will. 
    
    Mark

    
    Having had my previous car broken into, I was NEVER under the
    impression that my car would not be stolen, but as I moved house last
    year I'm not likely to move again in a hurry anyway!
    
    As for changing jobs, who knows? :^)
    
    Going back to regional matters though, I was amazed by the comments of 
    people living in Reading of regular attempts to break into their cars.
    I know if they lived in one of Reading's quieter suburbs that they'd
    not be as likely to suffer from this, so maybe choosing where you live to
    avoid theft (and no doubt other crimes) isn't such a daft idea at all?
    
    Mark

    Has anyone any comments on the new anti theft device housed in the
    Renault clio 16v. This is held in a discreet place and is supposed to
    imobolise the electronic managment system. I would be interested to
    hear how a thief might potential work his way around that one. 
    
    I agree with past replies in that anto-theft devices are being used as
    effective nmarketing tools.
    

	One of the Reading freebe rags mentioned there were 200 cars stolen in 
	Reading in two days, and were recommending people NOt to park in the
	multi stories - I have no-idea where they think people can park,
	Reading parking is abysmal at the best of times!

	Heather

>>>	One of the Reading freebe rags mentioned there were 200 cars stolen in 
>>>	Reading in two days, and were recommending people NOt to park in the
>>>	multi stories - 



I had my car broken into on Friday, in Reading, and that's exactly what the 
police said to me..... "Well, you shouldn't have left it here (the Broad St Mall
multi), this is where they all get stolen from"

Where am I *supposed* to park, then ?
On present form, it looks to be cheaper to leave my car somewhere very
visible and just pay the parking fines than to pay out for damage and loss !

... and if they *know* that all the car-thieves are in the multis, why aren't
there lots of policemen hanging about waiting to pick them up?
It seems to me that one good organised evening of surveillance could pick
up a very large proportion of the b*******s.

(Though a local copper, with whom I discussed this, pointed out that the 
people like me, who have to park in car-parks, are usually visitors, so 
they don't vote for the local councilllors, who sit on the watch committee,
so who cares ?......)

Did I read somewhere that insurance companies are refusing to give full-comp
to people who live in the more popular target areas of Reading ?
....or did I imagine it ?


Ian

    A small question....if all the cars are being stolen from this car park
    how are the thieves getting the cars out without making themselves 
    noticed?? Does everyone leave there ticket in the car?

    1683.19 : invalid question it's a park and display car park NO control on
    exit.
    
    Richard

    re Note 1683.0 by BAHTAT::FRANZ "Chris Franz, Leeds, UK" 
    
    I've got the information in work, If you let me have a fax number or
    infernal snail address I'll send it to you.
    
    Richard

    
    re .18....
        probably not....but one thing you can believe is that Insurance
    companies wont insure Motorcyclists under the age of 28 fully comp.....
    
    The only way to deal with this is to bring back capital punishment, coz
    it works, the lad who nicked my bike will verify that.........
    
    Al...

    RE: 1683.18
    
    Regarding Police surveilance.
    
    I live in Leeds in a converted old hall which is now 10 flats. 
    About eight of the occupants living there (including myself) have had
    their cars stolen , some more than once. It seemed a very reasonable
    assumption to me , that if the Police were to keep the area under
    surveilance for several nights, then they would surely catch the
    criminals red-handed. Anyway, about two weeks ago , one of the
    neighbours had his Golf GTI stolen , for the FOURTH time. When the
    police arrived I asked one of them why they didn't put the area under
    surveilance. He told me that they could wait several days and not get a
    result, thus wasting manpower. So it all seems like a resources issue.
          It really makes me frustrated when on the news they talk of how
    the government are cracking down on Joyriders/Car Theives. In my
    opinion  , car theft should carry a mandatory 5 year spell behind bars
    and I also think that the parents of the youths resposible should also
    be held responsible, because let's face it, these kids are out until
    the early hours of the morning commiting crimes, and if their parents
    can't stop them , then who can. Perhaps the Joyriders should also be
    birched, just for good measure.
          The bottom line to my argument is that the criminals seem to have
    more rights than the victims. 
    
    
    It makes me mad. Grrrrrrrr.
    

    
    RE -1:
    
    	The law is also soft here in Finland; if someones steals a car
    	and drives it somewhere and leaves it (usually damaged) he/she
    	get practically no punishment at all ( if gets caught).
    
    	By law is is called UNAUTHORIZED BORROW! 
    
    	Young kids make here most of car-thefts and cause insurance 
    	taxes go high and owners go mad.
    
    	Hannu

Re: .-1

	And here in Finland the police is not even allowed to arrest car 
	thieves.

	Why, you? The police is not allowed to arrest anybody if the maximum
	punishment from the crime is two or less years in jail. And this is
	the case in the 'unauthorized borrow' of a car.

	Please, do not tell this to the British joy-riders ;')

	- Jyri -

I don't think car theft is that important.

Joy riding, however, carries the risk of injury to
innocent third parties, and should be pursued.

Who cares that someones GTI gets stolen??

Mark.

    
    re -1:
    
    >Who cares that someones GTI gets stolen??
    
    Someone does.
    
    I think you care if your car will be stolen some day. Or maybe you
    have a company car and don't care about material. 8-)
    
    
    Hannu

    RE: .26
    
    People with massive insurance bills, car repair bills etc etc
    probably mind their cars being stolen.
    Obviously it has never happened to you, or you too would have a more
    realistic opinion on the matter....

    
    Actually it HAS happened to Mark, but it was only a company car so the
    blow was greatly cushioned.
    
    Mark does have a point though, crime against property seems to be treated 
    more severely than against people. A hangover (hopefully soon to be
    swept away) from the "Me First" era of the Eighties.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Company cars push up servicing, repair and insurance bills. They
    should be made highly unattractive (except to REAL needers - anyone 
    doing over 30k miles a year on business, say) and then we'd see a 
    swing back to more reasonable costs in all areas, I suspect.

>  doing over 30k miles a year on business


WOW! That would be very hard to acheive Mark! I'm hardly ever in the
office, and don't expect to cover 30k miles

    
    So, you don't need a company car! :^)
    
    Mark

I agree with the two Marks.  I know I'd far rather have my car stolen -
even if it was my own rather than a lease car - than be physically
attacked.  I guess different people think differently.

Jon

re. .36


It's not just a case of "Who cares if your company GTi gets stolen, 
DEC/Hertz/PHH will give you another one..."

First:  

If the car wasn't stolen in the first place, the joyriders wouldn't have
anything to joy-ride in.

Second:

In our case, DEC has to bear the cost of the elevated insurance premiums, which 
affects the copmpany's financial performance, which, in turn, affects the 
pound in my pocket, or not.

There's also the question of all the stuff that gets stolen with (or from)
your car, which can often cause more chaos than the loss of the car itself.
(and is, in my case at least, more expensive, since DEC's insurance cover isn't 
enough to replace it all)

Also, when work-related material, information, papers, etc are taken (and
most likely dumped in the canal), there's loss of time and money to DEC in 
re-assembling the information.


It's not quite as simple as that......


Ian

You missed my point.

Even though its a company car, I like it. But, even if it were my own,
I would *NEVER* rate it above a person.

So, compared to Assault, Rape or Murder, car theft comes a pretty poor
99th.

Thats why I made the point about Joy riding being more dangerous than plain
car theft. With joy riding, there is a risk to an innocent third party.

There is a brilliant Fry & Laurie sketch, with Stephen Fry giving an MP 
style lecture on why not stealing my car was the cornerstone of a decent
society.

Mark.

    This note seems the best place for what I've got to ask.
    
    Does anyone what the claer up rate for car crime is ?
    
    Whatever it happens to be I'm getting somewhat suspicious that the
    Police (who I have an inherent dislike of) are fixing the figures. I've
    had my car broken into 3 times over the past three  years and
    although I didn't expect anyone to be caught I thought it best to
    report the crime anyway. About 18 months after the first 2 incidents I
    got a letter from the West Midlands police stating that someone already
    in prison had intimated that he was responsible for the crime against
    me and as he was already in prison no further action would be taken and
    the case was now closed.
    
      The first time I got a letter like this I never questioned it but to
    receive a second letter exactly the same got me somewhat suspicious as
    it's obviously a standard letter. I say it's a standard letter because
    it contained the statement 'no property has been recovered'. In both
    incidents no property was taken.
    
    So what do people think?
    
    Is it a coincidence ? I'm expecting another letter in about 6 or so
    months concerning the third incident, if that's the same, well...
    
    Are the police trying to make the clear up stats better ? I mean how
    can someone remember the details of all his crimes after such a long
    period. I cannot even remember the name of the pub I was in during the
    second incident after this long.
    
    Has anyone else received such letters ?
    
    Cheers
    
       Andy  

    re: -1.
    
    Andy,
    
    At least you recieved letters from them. My car has been roken into
    twice, i have found the police to show total disinterest in these
    crimes!!
    The second time my car was broken into, outside Glaxo in Greenford, est
    London, i rang the police to report the crime and they could'nt even be
    bothered to send someone out to have a look! In fact i was asked to
    drive down to the local station to report the crime. I was most
    furious. You would think that they might want to come down and have a
    look and get some fingerprints etc. I often see a lot of broken glass
    in the same spot as i drive past, and this is obviously a haunt for a
    person(s). I'm sure if the police were interested in catching these
    people they could do something about it!!
    
    >>i have an inherent dislike of policemen.......Likewise , for many
    other reasons apart from this.
    
    Sheleen.

	I find it even more annoying when your car gets broken into by some
smashing a window to steal #1.50. Rather than drive around in a car with a
window missing I replaced the door (unfortunately it was the wrong colour). I
then get stopped by the police for driving a car that looked like it did not
have an MOT because it was so scruffy. And those were his exact words.

Gordy.

    re. 35
    
    I saw a documentary once about this very thing, only it was house
    burglaries. It was implied in no uncertain terms that it was a regular
    practice and the Police were knowingly using it as a devious method for 
    the Police to imrove their stats.
    
    Phil Gill.

    Well it finally happened.  After 24 years of motoring, two toe-rags
    tried to steal my car.  I know that there were two of them because they
    were spotted lurking around the cars prior to coming into the pub to have
    a pint (according to the landlord/kitchen staff).  Before anyone had
    sussed out exactly what they had done they had made their escape in in
    an XR2 which they had to push start, presumably because that was stolen
    as well.
    
    Anyway to the point.  Here are a few thoughts about this experience:
    
    1.  For all the publicity about Vauxhall being one of the most security
        conscious manufacturers, it was incredibly simple for these sh@ts
        to get into my fully alarmed, centrally locked and deadlocked car.  
        They used a screwdriver to prize the bottom lip of the plastic (I
        thought it was metal) plate which houses the door handle and lock
        barrel.  Having broken this lip they simply pushed the whole
        assembly into the door cavity and manipulated the central locking
        levers etc. To demonstrate how little force is required to do this,
        they didn't even dent the door skin. Must have taken them seconds to 
        do this and in the process deactivate the alarm which is controlled 
        from the door  key/central locking.  This is a p*ss poor design........
        ....it's round to the local vehicle security shop to have a decent 
        alarm fitted. 
    
    2.  The only thing that stopped them taking the car was the AUTOLOCK
        that was fitted at the time.  If they had removed this the normal
        vehicle steering lock would have offered little opposition.  For those
        of you not familiar with the AUTOLOCK,  it fits across the steering 
        wheel and snap locks in place.  They broke a screwdriver into three 
        pieces trying pry this apart - unfortunately there was no blood in the
        car so they didn't injure themselves when the screwdriver broke. 
    
    3.  The Police were called.  According to the landlord this is now a
        statutory requirement for Pubs and Restaurants to notify the Police
        in cases like this.   They turned up 15 minutes later and went
        through the formalities; crime report, statement etc.  It was some
        comments that he made that made me think.  
    
    	As we were filling the crime report,  he wrote at the top "Attempted 
        theft of a motor vehicle".   As he did this he said "This is one that 
        the government won't like".  When I asked why he told me that the 
        government have insisted that some car crimes be reclassified.  Theft 
        of property from a motor vehicle is now classified as `Criminal
        Damage".  In this way they have managed to make it look as if car
        crime is reducing and hailing this as a victory.  The Police have
        apparantly opposed this move to frig the figures with no success.
    
    There are several points here, some of which may already be covered in
    other entries - Mr moderator please feel free to redirect me to a more
    approprite note or move this one.  Has anyone got any observations?
      

    It's a sad fact that everyone states after an event like this, and it's
    probably the last thing that you want to hear, but basically ... if
    they want it, they'll get it.
    
    Forget all the advertising blurb most car manufacturers use about
    'deadlocks' ... some advertise 'shielded lock mechanisms' which, in
    some cases, has turned out to be 'shielded with thin plastic'. I
    believe expensive German car manufacturers (ie. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche)
    actually have decent door locks/steering locks shielded with heavy
    metal plate, but apart from that nobody else jumps to mind.
    
    I prefer the idea one guy had of wiring his Sierra Cosworth up to
    the mains and frying the scum who tried to nick his motor, but
    unfortunately this is illegal and gets _you_ into trouble. Ahh well.
    It's a funny old world...
    
    Dan

	When we lived near the University in Reading there were
	several attempts to steal my wife's Cavalier from the drive,
	none of them succeeded.  When she had the model with deadlocks,
	they didn't get past them and so I've always assumed that they're
	pretty good.   Like your attempt, they did pop out the lock 
	though.  I have one of those big bars recommended by the AA that
	fits over the steering wheel for my MG even though it is unlikely
	to be stolen either for parts (they're too cheap) or for joyriding
 	(not enough room).   The Peugot is alarmed, immobilized and has
	one of those card key thingys that joins up the key wires.

	As for the government fiddling the figures - well what do you
	expect?

	Dave

    The SRi's here in Leeds are going faster than hot cakes, a guy I know
    at Olivetti has his nicked/broken into once a week on average.
    
    Someone even cooly broke into it in the office car park, in full view
    of a number of windows, and calmly drove off, some saw the car leaving
    at a normal sedate pace, and assumed it was the owner!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Those things that clip on the steering wheel are fairly easily
    circumvented. All one has to do is to hackshaw though the rim either
    side of it. I suppose a wheel clamp is the best idea. Whatever, as has
    been said, if they want it, they'll have it, one way or another.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    Re .3
    
>>    The SRi's here in Leeds are going faster than hot cakes, a guy I know
>>    at Olivetti has his nicked/broken into once a week on average.
    
        	how many SRi's has this guy got if he loses one a week on
    average??? 8-)
    
    JBG

    sad, but true. had my much-loved 205 GTI nicked earlier this year and
    recovered wrecked.
    
    decided to get a car that wouldn't be a target so i'm plodding about
    in a 106  -hopefully no thief will target that. pragmatic but ... i'd
    rather have a nice car !

    I was lucky enough to convince my manager tha the Cav deadlock system
    was not enough and had a second alarm fitted. If anyone else does 
    this make sure before activating both alarms that you've disabled
    the vauxhall ultrasonics with the button above the drivers seat
    or the two sonics will "fight" and set each other off! I've had
    it happen and it's embarassing....
    Good Luck
    Matt.

    >>I was lucky enough to convince my manager tha the Cav deadlock system
    >>was not enough and had a second alarm fitted. If anyone else does 
    >>this make sure before activating both alarms that you've disabled
    >>the vauxhall ultrasonics with the button above the drivers seat
    >>or the two sonics will "fight" and set each other off! I've had
    >>it happen and it's embarassing....
    
    Matt,  what make, type of alarm did you have fitted and what was the
    cost?
    
    As an addendum to my base note and as a note of caution for others.  
    
    Last Sunday when the attempted theft of my car occurred, I and my family 
    were on our way back from a weekend in Devon.  As a precaution whenever
    away from our house I always take the keys to my wife's car with me. 
    The theory is that if anyone breaks into the house whilst we're away
    then we don't make it too easy for the burglers to become car thieves
    as well.  Well, you guessed it, like a complacent idiot I left them out
    of sight in the glove compartment of my car whilst in the restaurant. 
    They were the only thing taken.  Golf GTi key, front door key, garage door
    keys, alarm remote control - the lot.
    
    Worried that if they have the registration of my car, or if there was
    something in the car that gave away my address, I checked with the
    Police to see how easy it is to get an address from a VIN.
    
    Both Basingstoke local and the Newbury lot (the incident happened at the 
    Winning Hand on the A4) hesitated then said that it was very
    difficult as this sort of information comes under the data protection
    act and that fees would have to be paid and requests for info made in
    writing to either the police or DVLC.  
    
    I'm not convinced and have taken the precaution of changing house locks etc.  
    But here's the rub, checking with my insurance broker as to which company 
    was going to pay for what, my wife's company were contacted who promptly 
    said that unless I changed the locks on her VW, she was not insured. 
    Gulp!  I seem to have convinced them that now that I have a fitted yet
    another security device to it (another steering wheel lock) that it
    should be OK.  List of security on my wife's car:
    
    Gear to handbrake security device
    Steering wheel crooklock
    manufacturer's steering lock (useless)
    lock plates
    alarm system and immobiliser
    locking wheel nuts
    
    Do I feel that it's safe?  Not
    
    Paul :-(
       
    
    
    

    It's just getting a joke, isn't it? If only the insurance companies
    would drop dead, it'd make me feel a heck of a load better.
    
    What's it coming to that people have to do this to their cars just so
    they can keep them. It's not the police's fault. It's not entirely the
    insurance companies fault either.
    
    The sooner we can go back to chopping the hands off criminals, the
    better, I say.
    
    My sympathy,
    	Dan

    The Alarm remote says "Serpi Star" on it, the fitting was arranged by
    car fleet as part of the delivery, as for normal non alarmed cars
    in field service that had to have alarms fitted for carrying company
    property. the car is K reg Cav Sri 16v. I'm sorry I've no idea on 
    the cost, car fleet would be able to tell you with luck?
    
    Matt.

     �"Serpi Star"  
    
    Car Fleet fit VSL alarms.
    
    You can contact VSL on 0582 324269.
    
    Royston

My Audi Coupe Quattro is fitted with an alarm, immobiliser, handbrake guard
and steering wheel lock. Even with this lot fitted I am still uneasy about
leaving it parked on the street. 

I have decided that if it get's nicked, I'll pin a medal on the guy if I see 
him......after I have had a quiet "word" with him of course.

The personal hassle and stress factors associated with car theft is bad.....never
mind trying to get the car back!

John