Conference terri::cars_uk

    Pete,
    
    	I think this topic has been covered elsewhere recently (the BX topic?) 
    but can't quite remember exactly. There are additives you can stick in
    (available from fuel stations) with the diesel which lower the risk of
    thickening. Alternatively you can stick in a gallon of 2* when you tank
    up.
    
    Colin

    Pete,
    
    Due to fuel taxation rates france is full of diesel cars. They all run
    ok in winter. My only advice would be to fill up when you get there so
    that if there are any different additives you will be running on local
    brew.
    
    Have a good trip
    
    Peter

    Here in New England the service stations get a winter grade of Diesel
    Fuel as the temperatures drop.  This is to stop the Diesel from
    turing to wax in the tank.  I would have thought that anywhere the
    temperature gets close to freezing the Diesel distributors would
    have done the same.

Check with your local garage if the 405 has a heater fitted as standard -
Citroen does on the BX's it sells in this country. If it has one, you'll
be OK - if not , I'd recommend the additives or petrol trick mentioned
earlier.

Peter.

P.S. Since 2* isn't available any more, I guess 4* will do just as well -
or probably unleaded, since it's cheapest! Ask the local dealer.

Pouring in a gallon or so of kerosene with each tank will do the trick, as well.

--PSW

    re 1670.6
    
<<Pouring in a gallon or so of kerosene with each tank will do the trick, 
    as well.                                                            >>
    
    The addition of kerosene is not legal in the UK as it not subject to
    the tax  that is applied to road fuel. So beware H.M Customs and Excise
    dipping your tank.
    
    
    DGS
    

>>    The addition of kerosene is not legal in the UK as it not subject to
>>    the tax  that is applied to road fuel. So beware H.M Customs and Excise
>>    dipping your tank.
    
    Does this mean that H.M. C & E would like to charge us for the air
    that is also used in the combustion process ?    ;-)
    
    J.R.

If they could think of a way to do it, yes......;-)

    I Don't think the Customs men would be as upset by Kerosene (paraffin)
    as they would by 'red' diesel.
    
    Huw. 

A quick question about Diesels and the cold weather.

I am quite new to Diesels, and have a newly rebuilt engine, so I'm not
sure if the symptom I have is due to the cold or a problem with the engine.

I was up in the mountains here in France over the weekend. When I started
the engine, there was quite a lot of white smoke (as usual). I usually
leave the engine to warm up for about 5' before using it, by which time
the smoke has gone.

However, this weekend, the smoke persisted, and on coming down from the
mountains, with the engine under compression, everytime I used the accelerator
there was a cloud of white smoke. By the time I got back down into the valley
(after about 15' of driving), the smoke had cleared, and didn't reappear.

Is this normal behaviour for a diesel when it is cold (it was probably around
-5c) ? Or normal behavious under compression (engine braking) ?

I wouldn't consider lots of white smoke 'normal'.  That means there
is water (and coolant) in the combustion chamber.  A very small amount
might be okay due to condensation, but more than a few puffs at
start up would have me concerned.  Keep an eye on your coolant level
and see if it drops.

You mentioned you had the engine rebuilt, how many miles (kms) ago?
If it had a new head gasket installed, it should be retorqued after
1000 miles (1600kms) or so.  This would be even more important on
a diesel because of the much higher compression ratio.

Dave

    Dave,
    
    sorry for the nit-pick, but I'm going to do it anyway.
    
    You refer to the higher compression ratio of a diesel causing greater
    stress on the head. Surely it's the force under firing that causes the
    stress and not the force under compression. 
    
    So a turbo engine would be much greater than a non-turbo, but I don't
    know what causes more force, expansion of burning petrol or diesel. I
    wonder if anyone does, or even cares?
    
    Peter

    Mark,
    
    My Pug starts first flick, every time, and even when cold, there's not
    a flicker of white "smoke" (or do you mean condensation?). I also
    understand that it's better to start up and drive off immediately,
    rather than let it tick over until warm. Unlike a petrol engine, a
    diesel pulls well from cold, with no farting and banging, so start it,
    and drive it!
    
    I think I'd be a little worried about that white smoke, meself...
    
    Laurie.

    My brother has had a lot of hassle with a Diesel van he's got. Anyway,
    after some work was done on the cylinder head, the thing was kicking
    out masses of 'white smoke' out of the exhaust. The garage that had
    done the work said 'Dunno what it is, but it seems to go okay !!'.
    
    So my brother kept using it, but noticed the starting was getting
    worse. Eventually the thing refused to start. When the very nice AA man
    turned up, he said 'Your glow plugs are knackered !'. Sure enough, one
    new set of glow plugs later, the thing started and ran like a dream,
    (well, it ran without kicking out masses of 'white smoke').
    
    Might be worthwhile checking these out.
    
    Dave.
    

Maybe retorquing the head gaskets isn't any more
critical on a diesel than a petrol engine, but it's
still something that really ought to be done
after replacing it.

My thoughts are based on the fact that when a petrol
engine is on the compression stroke, it's compressing
from 1:1 to 1:9 (roughly) before the mixture explodes.
The diesel will compress from 1:1 to 1:22 before 
everything blows up...  So, at least on the compression
stroke, the head gasket of the diesel has to hold
back more pressure than the petrol engine.

Glow plugs - you can check the resistance of the plugs
before replacing them to make sure they are bad.  They
should only effect starting and maybe warming up.  Do
they stay 'lit' after the engine has started?  I'm not
sure.  Still, white smoke is steam, unless it's unburned
diesel fuel from a cylinder that isn't firing.  But on
my diesel Rabbits (Golf Mk 1), the exhaust would be blacker
on a cold startup until it warmed up, not white.

Dave

    Glow plugs, in general, are only used to assist starting. Once a diesel
    is running, it has no further need of them. In a modern diesel, once
    the glow-plug light has gone out, the plugs start cooling down. On some
    older diesels, the glow plug switch was manually rather than
    thermostatically controlled.
    
    Laurie.

I'd disagree with -.1, 

I found on my BX's that the sequence was:
	Ignition on, glow-plugs start heating.
	Light goes out (seemed to vary based on environment temperature, e.g 1-2 
	secs in summer, 7 or more in winter)
	Plugs continue to get heated, even after engine starts for a 15 secs or 
	more.(supposed to help those first few revs)
You could tell this by listening to tohe relay that energises them.

Richard

Thanks for all the response. I've been away, hence the lack of comment
from me.

Well, the outside temperature has risen quite a lot, and the white
smoke is much reduced. If I didn't explain myself well enough before,
this white smoke is only when I start in the morning, or after leaving
it unused for a prolonged period of time. It usually lasts for a few
seconds and then goes away. This is why I was surprised to see any at
all with the engine running, although under compression going down hill,
things might be different.

Yes, the engine was rebuilt recently, and everything was tightened down
after 1500kms. This was before I noticed the smoke.

Regarding starting and glow-plugs ... I think these were changed when the
engine was rebuilt, but I don't have any problem starting.

Are you diesel owners telling me that their engines NEVER smoke on startup ?
This does surprise me. ALL the diesel cars I've seen starting up in the
carpark here seem to smoke. Maybe it's the quality of the diesel, or rather
lack of it ...

    My 3500 mile-old Peugeot 405 Td does not smoke on start up.
    
    Laurie.,

My 1200 mile Espace RT Td does not smoke on tickover, which is the only time
I have looked at the exhaust.

I have yet to have anyone follow me and comment on smoke output under full 
throttle.

Dave

I have a Pug 205 XLD with 95,000 miles on the clock and I have never noticed
any smoke.

Karen

    My 405 does smoke under hard acceleration. I'm given to understand that
    turbos do that.
    
    Laurie.

I have to say that I've seen many diesels smoking under acceleration, though 
it's not usually so much that the driver can see. After all, the exhaust pipe 
is probably the most impossible place to see from the drivers position

I'll believe you all when you get someone to follow you and ask THEM what it 
does....

Richard

    Wassamatter Richard? Got those blinds in your rear window?
    
    I can see quite clearly that my car is smoking under *hard*
    acceleration, via the simple means of looking in my rear view mirror.
    
    Laurie.

1 I don't have blinds (yes I know the reference.... 
:-))

2 I don't currently drive a diesel so I don't smoke

3 YOU might see it (why are you looking in the mirror 
whilst accelerating hard forwards?) but not everyone 
might, some exhaust pipes are on the nearside and have 
a turn-down at the end.

Richard

�� 3 YOU might see it (why are you looking in the mirror 
�� whilst accelerating hard forwards?) but not everyone 
    
    The juxtaposition of 1st & Reverse, in a Golf, can necessitate it !
    
    Mike

    
    
    My BX diesel(non-turbo) smokers like a DEMON on hard 8*)  acceleration.
    
    Richard (young)
    

All of the diesel Golfs (mk 1) diesels that I have owned (4 or 5
at last count) have smoked at startup, black and sometimes
blue smoke, but not white.  That was the main point of discussion.

Black is soot
Blue is oil
White is water/coolant

Dave

    So, perhaps the white smoke I saw when coming down from the
    mountains was just condensation in the exhaust system. Could
    this build up when coming down hill under compression ?
    
    When the engine is warm, there is no smoke/steam at all,
    although, as Laurie said, I do see a little on hard acceleration
    and then it's a grey/blue colour ...

    
    I noticed my BX turbo diesel smokes alot more on acceleration after
    the garage had removed the pump to fix a leak and obviously had to
    retime it. I reckon they didn't get the timing quite right. As to the
    smoke up in the mountains, maybe the altitude affects the timing the
    same as it does a petrol car ?