Conference terri::cars_uk

 Simple -   Drive it !!!!!!

    
    But if you'd never driven another how would you know? 
    
    Obviously you'd expect fairly good performance from this sort of car,
    especially if you'd been used to lesser models, so how would you know
    if the car was performing 'unusually' well?
    
    I've often wondered about this. Insurers ask if my Marcos is modified!
    All I can answer is 'Not as far as I know'. The car has got a brake
    servo which wasn't normally fitted, so should I tell the insurer? The
    trouble is this could be never ending!
    
    Mark

Re: .2

>    I've often wondered about this. Insurers ask if my Marcos is modified!
>    All I can answer is 'Not as far as I know'. The car has got a brake
>    servo which wasn't normally fitted, so should I tell the insurer? The
>    trouble is this could be never ending!
    
Yes, strictly you should tell them about the brake servo.  If you don't
they could legally refuse to pay up, although most companies would not be
so nasty. 

In the UK, insurance contracts (of all types) are on the basis that you
have disclosed *all* facts to the insurer.  There have been cases where
insurers have refused to pay out for seemingly irrelevant facts not being
disclosed - for example, a van that had been modified to have a built-in
refrigerator or some such was destroyed in a fire.  The insurance comapny
refused to pay up on the grounds that they had not been notified of the
modification.  This went to the Court of Appeal who upheld the insurance 
company's position.

jb

 Ah, misread the base note, thought it said about 2 sitting next to each other.


 Maybe the idea is to get a test drive of a new one first, or to race a Cossy
while lokking at the second hand one. Otherwise it is very difficult. Although
at a guess, most people selling a chipped car will tell you it is chipped, and
attempt to charge you more !!!! 

    The easiest way is to take a boost gauge and a length of flexible pipe
    with you. All RS's have a connector on the plenum chamber to allow a
    boost gauge to be filled during servicing. Simply connect up your gauge
    (you can run the pipe through the gap at the back of the bonnet and
    then through the window) and take the car for a blast. As all upgrade
    chips rely on turning up the boost to gain the power increase once you
    know the standard boost pressure you can tell if your car has had a new
    brain.
    
    Simon

>> you can tell if your car has had a new brain.

... to make up for the one the driver doesn't have?

I'm all for "sporty" performance cars, but what the hell is the point of 175 hp
in a road car?

There are very few roads where the "benefit" (I use the word loosely) of such
an upgrade could be appreciated, and none where it is at all useful...

Scott

    Re -1
    
    Scott, I was indicating a method of detecting an alteration not
    advocating it.
    
    ...athough my car has in excess of 175 bhp and I find it very usefull.
    
    Simon.    

    
    Ah, come on Scott, wouldn't you love an F40? That's got a little more
    than 175 hp! :^)
    
    Provided the car can use the power what's wrong with having lots? The
    Lotus Carlton is a good case of that. Supercar performance (massive
    acceleration) with the docility of a normal saloon.
    
    Still, I'm not sure a wheel spinning Escort with all that power would
    be awfully nice though.
    
    Mark

                      
    How many times do you use the full travel of the accelerator?
    If you do, frequently, then it shows that you want to accelerate
    quicker than the car is capable, and more power would be useful.
    In a more powerful car, you tend to use less throttle, or wide
    open throttle for less long. Only when you rarely, if ever, use
    the full depression of the accelerator do you have a car thats
    powerful enough... (of course, some nutters use far too much
    welly in the wrong places, and should all be confined to driving
    Rialtos in Bracknell).
    
    Bill.

    
    
    re: last couple...
    
       Not wishing to upset anyone :-), but, I'm quite happy with a 998cc
    engine that produces a full 142bph (dyno measured at REAR WHEEL) and a 	
    straight line top speed in excess 175mph with smooth acceleration (0 to
    100 to 0 in under 10 seconds) and all for 3500 pounds sterling....
    
    
      Al
    

    Bet you still get wet in the rain though :-)
    
    Simon

    
    get wet in the rain ??? nah I take the car....:-)
    
    Al...
    
    ps my insurance is under 800 pounds (fully comp) per annum.....
    

    � ps my insurance is under 800 pounds (fully comp) per annum.....
    
    So is my entire household's motor insurance bill...
    
    Mark

re several

I wasn't getting at anyone in particular, just asking a genuine question about
the need for all these horses...

Yes, I'd like to drive a 175hp car... dunno about an F40, never been a Ferrari
fan, but I'd rather drive it on the track where I can make full use of, and
get most enjoyment from, the power... you just can't do that *safely* on a
public road.

I still refute anyone's claim that such power is needed for road use; I'd be
very concerned about the driving ability of such people!  I currently drive
(and don't like... it's a temporary car that's ended up a bit too permanant!)
a 998cc 50-something hp metro... now more power would be nice, and indeed
useful on occasion, but certainly not *necessary*.

It is interesting that the main times more power would be useful are when
overtaking on motorways when you need to quickly match the speed of
turbo-nutters in the next lane to the right who seem to want more horses just
for the sake of it...

To take up Bill's point, yes I drive with the throttle full open a lot of the
time... the traffic conditions and other driver's attitudes often necessitate
it if I'm to make "fair" progress (ie not be bullied into sitting in the
inside lane at 50 behind some artic 'cos the BMW brigade are all nose-to-tail
in the middle lane not letting anyone else in).

So it seems reasonable that I should get a car with a bit more power... which is
precisley what I'm doing... but I think 110(-ish) bhp/ton will be more than
plenty to make the fastest possible *safe* progress on today's roads...

Having said all that, if someone wants to spend hundreds of pounds on more
horses just to know they've got them, that's entirely up to them and I wouldn't
try and stop them... just don't drive down my road... :-)

Scott

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    175 is  peanuts  on a decent sized auto.  I've got 200, I drive it flat
    out, it's not enough, I'm after more, and in 4 months, I'm getting 'em.

    
    The safest car I drive regularly has 225 bhp in a Fiesta sized shell.
    The perfect road car.
    
    Great roadholding, superb accelaration, good brakes, & small. Ideal
    combination in the remote areas of the UK, where long cruises on wide
    motorways are not easy .... & where a short straight to get past a
    tractor is a delightful sight.
    
    Colin
    
    BTW it's an Integrale.

    
    I'd agree with the idea of an Integrale being one of the safest cars
    on the road (except for it's normal LHD format in the UK), but the
    shell is more Astra sized than Fiesta isn't it? Even the new Fiesta
    is a pretty small car.
    
    110 bhp MIGHT be enough power if you drive a light car on dual
    carriageways, but a heavier car is going to need more power than 
    that to make quick progress on single carriageway roads. If you're
    happy to drive along behind whatever you encounter, great stick to
    a low powered car, if not (and I don't have that amount of patience
    :^)) you'll need more. 
    
    You can't compare cars on power alone. My Renault only had 120 bhp 
    but was quicker on acceleration than my 150 bhp Calibra. The Vauxhall
    has a lot more weight to haul around, but which would you consider the
    safer?
    
    Mark

    It's not the power, its the power / weight ratio.
    
    110 bhp/ton(ne?) is OK.
    
    Also torque come into it. What do people think of the Porsche 968 (944
    replacement) 240 bhp but approx 300 lb/f !!! care of their ``VTEC''
    like valve adjuster. (Can't wait 'till they put that into a 911)
    
    Re. back a few
    
    OK, what are you going to replace the M3 with ?
    
    All this talk of Integralies (sp?) must be making ``The Nut'' a bit
    sick - where is your luggage these days :-(

    Re. -.2
    
    Yes you can be nicked for travelling ``too fast'' even though your
    within the speed limit. I cant remember what the offence is called but
    you are very unlikely to be booked for it. They tend to reserve it for
    people travelling at 70 in thick fog and alike.
    
    Maybe you should buy a 911 ... the you could fit an opposite lock
    switch to go with your three position accelerator. How may positions
    does the brake pedal have - two. Do you ever use the left hand pedal ?
    
    Perhapse you should get read of the pedals altogether and get an
    n-position switch.
    
                               Clutch  Break Acc
    	1. Stopped               in     on    off
    	2. Approaching corner   out     on    off
    	3. Round corner         out    off  constant
    	4. Default              out    off    full
    	5. Police               out    off  constant
    
    You should be able to rig this up with a few solinoides (and think of
    the weight saving)
    
    	Rik

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    Either Audi  90  Coup�  S2,  Toyota Supra, or Nissan 300ZX.  It's all a
    matter of money (sigh).

�   Audi  90  Coup�  S2
    
    Is that the same as the Audi Quatro S2 here in the UK, I've not heard of
    the 90 Coup� ?
    
    	Rik

    
    How are prices of the 300ZX at the moment ?  I understand that Nissan
    UK have knocked then down by a few bob in the last few weeks.
    
    
    Nigel

    
    Toyota Supra - urgh.
    
    Yes the Audi s2 is the new quatro, and they are already available in the
    UK, I beleive the first 50 have already been presold.
    
    Get the Nissan, then after the lease has run out you can sell it to 
    me for peanuts ;-), these things really lose a lot, I saw last week one
    in the Times 1989 300ZX for 12K �'s
    

    Re.20
    
    � Maybe you should buy a 911
    
    Maybe YOU should buy a 911, and then stop making such stupid remarks!

    To cut a long story short.
    
    I have been in a 911� being driven by an ex-rally driver going sideways
    (almost backwards) round roundabouts before now.
    
    My parents also have a heavily modified 911SC - but I wouldn't like to
    be in this going sideways as you would have to be going at one hell of
    a speed.
    
    Just to clarify then.
    
    	The older (pre '76 ish) 911 can be a bit hairy when driven with no
    respect - but good fun.
    
    	Newer 911 are a lot more forgiving (Carrera-2 esp.) but when they
    do go (and they do, believe me) you must be a better driver than me to
    catch it. But to get a 911 into this sort of state you really do need a
    death wish.
    
    Re. comment in this notes file a few days ago about MR2 keeping up with
    2.7l 911 - the 911 driver must be asleep. After all an MR2 is just a
    Toyota Corolla with plastic surgery, a few seats removed and the engine
    moved.
    
    	Rik
    
    
    
    � Old 911S I think, it was some time ago.

    
    Don't apologise Rik, Colin's just getting withdrawl symptoms :^)
    
    Mark

Chaps

What is the "ugh" comment for on the Toyota Supra.???  Have you driven one ?? 


Regards

Bruce

    I saw an H registered 300ZX in a car park at Valbonne the other day and
    it looked much more rounded at the back than I remembered. Have they
    brought out a new model recently?
    
    Thanks,
    Barry.

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    The one  you  are  talking about Gary is the LAST 300ZX model for �12K.
    I'm not surprised when you see the new ones.

    Twin Turbo  3.0  litre  6, twin intercoolers, 4 wheel steering, 268 hp,
    governed to 155 mph. 5.6 seconds 0-60. This is indeed a new model.

    
    Thanks Rik, I must be a better driver than you .....

    re .28
    
    'Done more than driven one, Bruce
    
    Simon.
    
    PS Maybe the Ugh was for the smell.........

    
    Rik,
    
    The 2.7 in question wasn't that well, the concensus was that
    it was running rather rich. Also bear in mind that road
    driving tends to even performance differences anyway, if
    the emphasis is on driving extremely well rather than
    extremely quickly. 
    
    For the record, in no way would I say the performance of an MR2
    was comparable with modern 911s. I'm fortunate enough to have
    driven a wealth of the marque, including an SC, CS, 2.7, Carrera,
    Carrera 2 and 3 litre RSR; and would willingly negotiate a swap
    for my car...
    
    Bill
    

    re .32
    
>    'Done more than driven one, Bruce
    
    You weren't the bloke who totalled one the day before i was supposed to
    pick it up for the weekend  ?  :-)
    
    
    Nigel

    could be
    

    But if I was you didn't miss much anyway :-)
    
    Simon

    
    the "Ugh" for the supra was for the looks of the thing, purely objective
    I know but then who buys a car that goes great but looks unpleasant to
    them.
    
    Yes I know its an old one Dennis, but I bet the new ones go the same
    way as far as depreciation is concerned. ( I hope so cos a 2 year old
    for 10k would be nice )

Simon

Due to the recent problems I have had with mine (Supra).  How do you fancy doing 
me a favour and taking it for a spin.  Save me complaining to the lease 
Company !! :*)

Regards

Bruce

    
    What kind of problems have you been having ?
    
    I've been thinking of getting a manual turbo supra a couple of years
    old (but still within the 3 year warranty), but if you are about to
    tell me that it spends every other day in the garage then i'll forget
    it.
    
    
    Nigel

    re: .30
    >    Ahhh Gi'day...�
    
    Could you tell me how the 4 wheel steering works exactly?
    Do the back wheels turn in the same direction as the front or opposite
    direction? And is it always in 4-wheel steer mode?
    
    Thanks,
    Barry.

	re 4 wheel steering

	It depends on your speed. At low speeds ie parking the wheels go 
	opposite, thus easier to park. At high speeds, maybe more than 20,
	the go in the same direction.

	Alex

More on 4 wheel steering.

It also depends on how much you steer... if they start moving in the same
direction, if you turn sharper they then go back and start going the opposite
way... well, they did in the demo I saw on TV!

Scott

 With 4 wheel steering it tends to vary between manufactures as well, some have
it always turning the opposaite way to the fronts, and some have 'dynamic'
variants.


		 Alan
		~~~~~~

 P.S. Hate to think what would happen if you were in a car where the direction
the rear wheels turned was dictated by speed and you passed that speed in the
middle of turning !?!?!?!?!?!?

    Yesterday my brother inlaw decided he would have his RS tuned on the
    rolling road as hes only been getting about 22 mpg. So he booked it in
    at POWER + at Uxbridge for 12:00. On his return at 15:00 the technician
    said he had some very good news and pulled out the power graphs to show
    him.
    
    Graph 1 (power before tune) 133bhp at 5310 rpm with max torque of
    155lb/ft
    This to most of us would be what we expect, but to the boys at power +
    all standard RS's come in at about 125bhp further investigation found
    that the car had been chipped by its previous owner, The only reason
    they discovered this was due to a boost pressure of 12 psi against the
    standard boost of 6 psi.
    
    Graph 2 (after tuning which involved k&n and ngk plugs)
    177bhp at 5013 rpm with a torque of 207lb/ft 
    
    So his car was chipped and HE did'nt even know.
    
    Regards Martin
    

    Hi Martin,
    
    When I had my RS Turbo chipped just over a week ago by BBR, I received
    a sort of certificate thingy detailing what new settings the car had
    and what to do and when to do it to keep it in perfect running order.
    At the top of said certificate in big letters was "TURBO ENGINES SHOULD
    NOT BE TESTED ON ROLLING ROADS" - hmm I wonder why. Suppose I should
    have asked last night when I had a new roll bar fitted and picked up
    the NGK spark plugs as recommended on the certificate.
    
    As for not even knowing the car has been chipped when you are an owner
    of a used one - this is quite possible as the chip really has nothing
    to do with increasing the performance by itself. The wastegate is the
    piece of gubbins which gives the increase in performance. A new uprated
    one looks exactly the same as a standard one, except that it is
    slightly stiffer. The boost is then adjusted by fiddling with the
    wastegate toggle bar as suggested in note 1500.? The chip simply allows
    this boost to be developed, where a standard engine management system
    would call a halt to such excessive boost. Therefore it is possible to
    have a chipped car with the wastegate adjusted to give standard boost
    (this is what I had when I was running a temp. engine man. sys. when
    waiting for mine to be reprogrammed - result car feels absolutely
    standard (except for a hiher rev limit of 7000 rpm).
    
    Even if you have a chipped model with higher boost than standard, then
    you are unlikely to know unless you drive a standard one. My boost was
    set at 8psi insted of 6psi when in "standard" trim - I didn't know any
    different.
    
    Regards,
    
    Gary.

�    At the top of said certificate in big letters was "TURBO ENGINES SHOULD
�    NOT BE TESTED ON ROLLING ROADS" - hmm I wonder why.
    
    This is something that BBR have claimed, and they are quite likely to
    be correct - but a rolling road tune may be better than no tune at all !
    
    The reason they disagree is that turbo engines generately noticeable
    higher underbonnet temperatures and the fans used for cooling the
    engine bay in a rolling road environment are nowhere near good enough
    to provide similar conditions to when using full boost, in gear, on
    an open road - even in 'high' ambient temperatures.
    
    Just think about it, the amount of fresh air that will flow at, over
    and through the engine, radiator and intercooler (not necessarily in
    that order) when running you car hard in third gear up to it's maximum
    revs.  Do you think that the fans used in the rolling road are going to
    provide enough cooling ?  I don't.
    
    I would doubt that the fans provide enough air for correct cooling of
    a decent non-turbo engin, but with a turbo engine this will make much
    more difference.  If there is insufficient colling air, then the
    intercooler will not be able to do its job properly.  This will result
    in the car running on much increased charge temperature (and effectively
    a lower boost pressure), so that any fuel/ignition adjustments will
    not have quite the same effect when the car is back on the road again.
    
    Anyway, as I said above, a rolling road tune may still be better than
    not having the engine 'tuned' in the first place (if it has already
    gone out of tune, that is).
    
    J.R.

    Gary,
         My brother inlaws car was just badly out of tune as it was
    developing 12psi when it went in there. Regarding the "TURBO ENGINES
    SHOULD NOT BE TESTED ON ROLLING ROADS" Weither it was sales talk or not
    they say that most chipped cars without being put on a rolling road
    develop about 165 instead of the claimed 175.They also say they had a
    bloke in who said he had a 260bhp conversion in his RS they said it was
    impossible to get without changing to a 2.0liter block and when they
    put it on they're rolling road it was only 196bhp the guy was well
    gutted as he obviously spent alot of money.
       Perhaps this is why they say dont put it on a rolling road as your
    not getting what you pay for!!!!
    
    
    Regards Martin

�    bloke in who said he had a 260bhp conversion in his RS they said it was
�    impossible to get without changing to a 2.0liter block and when they
�    put it on they're rolling road it was only 196bhp the guy was well
�    gutted as he obviously spent alot of money.
    
    I would also seriously doubt that 260bhp is available from the
    smaller engine (but what does/did a Group A Mazda 323 put out ?).
    
    As for the actual quoted power figures from *any* tuning concern,
    you cannot take them 'as gospel'.  Checking your power output on
    a rolling road is also not going to give you a 100% correct figure.
    
    Really, the power figures from a rolling road should be used for
    'before and after' comparisons, then only valid if the figures
    are produced on the same rolling road (and if they include some
    compensation for different conditions, ie ambient temperature).
    If a rolling road gives you a figure of 100bhp, then you change
    camshaft profile (for instance) and the rolling road then gives
    you a figure of 115 bhp, you can rest assured that the cam change
    has given you a 15% power increase, but you still cannot be too
    sure that your engine really puts out 115 horsepower.
    Then again, these figures are mostly for bar chat (or notes entries).
    
    What really counts is how well the vehicle performs on the road.
    That also means that 0-60 figures aren't always going to indicate
    which of two cars is the quickest, but manufacturers find them to
    be their favourite yardstick.  Why not quote the � mile time ?
    
�       Perhaps this is why they say dont put it on a rolling road as your
�    not getting what you pay for!!!!
    
    If you checked the power output and found it slightly (15% ?) below
    what you were led to expect, then you couldn't really complain.
    Then again, you may find it appears to be higher than expected...
    
    If you paid for a conversion to give you 260bhp and a rolling road
    told you that only 196bhp was being developed, I think you should
    go back and ask where those other horses are supposed to be !
    
    Or was this the difference between power at the flywheel and at the
    driving wheels ?  (Although, IMO, 260bhp from this engine is unlikely)
    
    J.R.
    
    
    PS  Do you think that rolling road fan systems will be good enough to
        provide cooling at a simulated 90+mph speed when running full boost ?
    
        I doubt they would be effective in matching a 30mph blast...

    John,
    
    Why do you think the � mile figure is any better than the 0-60? It
    may be popular in the States, but unless you want to play at the
    traffic lights it's as meaningless for road cars as 0-60 or 0-100.
    
    Personally, I like to compare the 30-50-70 figures on various cars.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Re not using rolling roads, How ARE you supposed to get a realistic
    idea of what power your car is producing in comparitive or absolute
    terms? I would have thought ANY highly tuned engine, turbo or not, in 
    an enclosed engine bay is going to have problems with static tuning,
    although I can see the point about intercoolers.
    
    PPS Isn't it an unpleasant experience having your car rolling roaded?
    Well it is with a V6 being revved to 6K!
    

 I read am article about the POWER + rolling road, which uses a totally 
different method of working out the power. Basically, rather than keeping the
car at a set revs and then working out the power, then going back and doing it
again at 500 RPM more, the operator just sticks his foot down while it is 
idling, and lets it rev up to max revs, then all power is worked out in one run,
with the transmission losses being calculated on deceleration.

 The article said that it was the first of its kind in the South, although there
is one some where up North that has the same software. Is my definition of what
the normal rolling road does correct ? If so, then this is definitely much nicer
on the car.


		 Alan
		~~~~~~

�    traffic lights it's as meaningless for road cars as 0-60 or 0-100.
�    
�    Personally, I like to compare the 30-50-70 figures on various cars.
    
    Yes, the in-gear increments are the most relevant (and revealing) of
    all the figures which are listed in road tests.  These do actually
    relate to how a car will perform on the road.
    
    The � mile figure is not as good as the 30-50-70 figures, but is still
    more useful than a 0-60 figure as it is probably more approachable by
    a 'normal' driver of a car.  Wheelspinning and gear snatching techniques
    as employed by road test drivers can have a more noticeable effect on a
    0-60 time than they will over a quarter mile.  Also, the number of gears
    a car may use in reaching sixty mph can effect the resultant figure.
    
    I would like to see � mile figures in preference to 0-60's, but if
    manufacturers could be persuaded to list the 20mph increments instead
    then that would be even better - but would that have to be in top, 4th,
    or the best available gear ?
    
    Re. not using rolling roads.
    
    My main concern would be that any adjustments made to a turbo engine
    might not be correct for on-road use.  If you want comparative figures
    then you would have to go to the trouble of getting timed runs to
    see if changes have improved these.  This doesn't seem to be as
    accurate as making tests on a rolling road, although if the changes
    made are useful, it is the in-road figures which you would want to
    see improved regardless of what the rolling road may tell you (unless
    you then happen to be running too lean a mixture or too advanced an
    ignition timing setting...)
    
    J.R.
    
    PS I haven't had a car checked on a rolling road, but I can sympathise
       with the thought of your own car being revved away in front of you !
       (especially on something like the Essex V6, not best suited to revs)

    I dont know about other places but at power + they actually supply you
    with a graph of power to rpm so they have no need to rev the nuts off
    the car at 7000 rpm for long periods.
    
    martin

    How much does this cost at POWER+, and where are they ?
    
    Pete

    Pete I got a mail message from Martin yesterday which said they were in
    Uxbridge, I think. I can get you the full address and telephone number
    tonight out of Performance Ford magazine and post a note tomorrow if
    you are interested.
    
    Are you thinking of a rolling road tune ??
    
    Gary.

 they are definitely in Uxbridge, I even used to know where they were, until 
they moved, but they are still in Uxbridge. They tended to have some very nice 
cars sat around outside, I remember the 6R4 that was commonly sat outside.



		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    the Address is :
    
     			The Power House
    			8 union buildings
    			wallingford Road
    			Uxbridge
    			Middlesex
    			UB8 2FR
    
    			Tel 0895 255699
    
    Prices		50 quid for a tune +vat
    			130 for 145-150 bhp for standard RS
        		inc.k & n ,ngk plugs and bleed valve.
    			345 quid for previous plus chip 175bhp
    
    Regards Martin
    
    P.S Power + do one "power run" in third gear only to get outputs and as
    soon as the power starts dropping off that it!!