Conference terri::cars_uk

In the event of a *real* crisis you can expect rationing.

In which case it is *possible* that diesel will be reserved for commercial users
and petrol for domestic users.

In any event you can buy unleaded cheaper from Tesco's than you can buy diesel 
from the (usually full price) brand leader chains.

/. Ian .\

    First, get it right! it's 'i before e'.
    
    Richard

re .;1

One minor nit, Ian. Tesco's sell diesel with a similar discount at many
(if not most) of their fuel outlets. The same is true of most of the
big supermarkets; if they sell petrol, there is a good chance they also sell 
diesel. I know, as I filled my BX turbo this morning at a Tesco station;
diesel was about .2p/litre cheaper than unleaded... (every little helps!)

Don't forget in the recent "crisis", petrol shot up overnight, while
diesel was much more stable - the same may happen again.

Since there are so many diesel engined car's, I can't see them being
excluded if it did come to rationing. Last time round, in '73 I think,
the ration was set at "so many gallons of fuel".

If they did the same again, you would win on diesel, as you can get more
miles to the gallon than with petrol.

In fact, they may just ration petrol, and leave diesel freely available,
given the large industrial/freight haulage needs for it.....

Peter.

    
    hrmph,
    
    I only know of three Tesco's with any "intimacy" - non sell diesel.
    
    When I asked Tesco's Basingstoke why not they said "its company policy
    because of the smoke emission from diesels"
    
    So the question is - before I get a diesel for my next vehicle - where
    is the nearest Tesco's (or similar price outlet) to Oxford/Goring that
    sells diesel cheap (the cheapest I see on my daily commute is 202.6p
    per gallon).
    
    /. Ian .\

    On the same subject, is there a Tesco-type cheap fuel outlet between
    Reading and Ascot?  I don't mind making a small detour if the price
    saving is worth it, but the nearest I know of at the moment is in
    Basingstoke, which is a bit too far out of my way...
    
    Scott

>>re .;1

>>One minor nit, Ian. Tesco's sell diesel with a similar discount at many

 Whilst we're on the subject of nits, it should be : Tesco sells diesel
    
 Ian
    

I've just left a job at a City bank where I recently read a market report
about the Gulf crisis. They said that currently there is a worldwide
over-capacity of refineries so even if the Iraqis take out the Saudi
installations there won't be *too* much of a problem on that score. As far
as the actual supply of crude is concerned, Kuwait and Saudi account for
approx 15% of the world supply. It's hopefully unlikely that the actual Saudi
supply will be destroyed although I guess the bits at the well-head sucking
it out of the ground are likely to go. Even so I don't believe a worldwide
shortage is expected.

What you can expect, however, is a massive price hike at the onset of
hostilities. The report was predicting between $75-$100 per barrel. However,
the long term futures trends are looking good at around $26 per barrel average
for next year.

Steve.

re .7;

Ah, but when I said Tesco's I meant the plural of Tesco....

Re .6;

the Tesco superstore in Dunstable sells Diesel; it was about 185p/gal this 
morning, unleaded was about 187p/gal, and 4* was 199p.

Mind you, Dunstable is a long-ish way from Reading...

The Sainsbury superstore in Basingstoke also sells diesel cheaply.

Peter.

    They are rebuilding the petrol station at the Savacentre at Calcot,
    just off J12 off M4. Whether it will do derv, I don't know.
    
    Steve

Re: .10

Yes, it will (according to the leaflet I have).

jb

    Newbury Tesco 'do' derv, I think. This evening their unleaded was 1.81p
    a gallon
    
    Rich
    

    > Ah, but when I said Tesco's I meant the plural of Tesco....
    
    Then why the apostrophe? :-)
    
    On with the dyezel ...
    
    Jeff.

    Torking ov deesel, wear duz de wurd `Derv' origeen8 phrom?
    
    Martin.

    
    D.E.R.V. = Diesel Engined Road Vehicle

    So when I see signs stating "Derv �1.95", does that mean the obvious? ;-)
    
    Martin.

    Will the mod get round to fixing the title sometime soon, please?
    One very good reason is that some people might want to do a search on
    titles.
    
    Jeff.

    Sorry I can't spell......
    
    Tim

    I wasn't nit-picking (honest!).  It's just that this is an interesting
    note that would be missed by someone searching for all notes about
    Diesel.  Hence the moderator, or the owner of .0, should fix the title.
    
    Jeff.

... had the right idea; he called one of the diesel engines a

	"Diseasal".

Peter.

    As the lady said:
    Dee's ll do nicely
    mod

Hello,

	It has been rumoured that at the next budget Diesel fuel will be made
significantly cheaper than petrol. Given that diesel cars are cheaper to run
and require significantly less maintenance wouldn't it make sense for digital
to run a fleet of diesel cars and cut costs. 

What does the panel think?

Cheers....Norm Pettet

    

    ...in my humble opinion.....
    
    
    The government would also need to put diesel cars into different tax
    benefit bands. I would propose putting all diesels up to 2.0 litres
    into the up to 1.4 litres petrol band, and all other diesels into the
    1.4-2.0 litre petrol band.
    
    Now......which one of you is going to tell Norman the Lager to do this!
    
    JK
    

    
    Both of these changes are widely mooted. The European Parliament
    recently voted to "urge" member countries to increase and enforce the
    differential between diesel and petrol (note that diesel tends to get
    dearer in the winter - it can get dearer than 4*).
    
    Several sources have suggested that diesel cars should be a slot
    cheaper in the company car tax stakes (some have suggested exemption on
    the grounds of eco-friendliness).
    
    It may be worth noting that diesel is widely used for delivery vehicles
    and a significant cut in the price of diesel would also reduce the cost
    of many items in the high street hence bringing down inflation (not
    entirely unacceptable to the government in what might well be an
    election year). Further encouraging the use of diesel may be seen as
    economising on fuel stocks when they may be fragile because of the Gulf
    crisis (which will probably be a raging war by budget day).
    
    /. Ian .\

    Well, I heard that the EEC are trying to make petrol and diesel
    prices the same, and as a result of this, the bottom is dropping
    out of the diesel market ... or at least it is in Italy where the
    prices are already supposed to have changed. (This it totally
    unverified information by the way ...).

    The same rumour source implies that the same will occur in France
    in the not too distant future.

    In an attempt to economise, I had been thinking of buying a diesel
    next, so would be interested to know the truth on this one ...

 Mark

    Can anyone answer these questions for me?
    Why do trucks use diesel fuel instead of gasoline?
    Does diesel fuel pollute more than gasoline or is it the other way
    around?

Trucks use diesel fuel because of the two-stroke engines.  You can't use
gasoline in such engines--it explodes too readily.  Trucks use diesel engines
because they generate greater power (at the expense of quick acceleration).

--PSW

Diesel engines are meant to last longer than petrol engines. 
Diesel is usually cheaper than petrol.
Diesel engines are more fule efficient than petrol ones.

	Ian

Diesel exhaust stinks...
Diesel exhaust leave a film of oily substance over everything...

    Diesel fuel costs less.
    Diesel gets more mpg
    Diesel emits less Carbon Monoxide (because they normally run very lean,
    		except at high power levels. This is useful in some enclosed
    		environments, e.g. tunnels)
    Diesel engines are more reliable (no ignition system)
    Diesel engines are good for turbo charging (they normally run with wide
    	open throttle. power is controlled by the amount of fuel injected).
    Diesel engines give good torque at lower revs
    
    On the other hand...
    
    Diesel engines have a lower power/weight ratio
    Diesel engines dont rev so high as petrol.
    Diesel engines give off more particulate emissions (smoke and unburnt
    fuel).
    Diesel engines are noisy
    Diesel fuel smells.
    
    re .28
    Two stroke can't use gasoline ?? I think you have something wrong !
    
    Two stroke can't use Diesel (can't get high enough compression). All
    Diesel engines are 4 stroke. They use high compression to ignite the
    fuel, instead of a spark. (I suppose someone might be able to build a
    two stroke diesel nowadays, with the improvements in two stroke
    technology).
    
>>  "Trucks use diesel engines because they generate greater power (at the
    expense of quick acceleration)."
    
    So what is this power doing, if it is not available for acceleration ?
    
    
    Andrew

.31> So what is this power doing, if it is not available for acceleration ?

 Isn't there something about diesel engines having more pulling-power at the
 low end of the revs, where it's needed to pull the truck-load up hills?

I have several 2 stroke diesels in the loft which used to power
model areoplanes over 10 years ago.

I also have a vague recollection of a truck at Brands Hatch running with a
2 stroke 300? Hp engine (West Coast Diesel?) several years ago.

Ian.

Some railroad locomotives use 2-stroke diesels and have for years.

    FIAT make trucks (or used to) with two-stroke Diesel engines.
    Two-stroke Diesels have higher specific power output but are less fuel
    efficient.
    
    - John.

Diesel engines definitely suffer a penalty in very cold weather.  At the
temperatures we get down to here in New Hampshire, diesel fuel is about the
consistency of molasses.  Cutting the fuel with kerosene and engine block
warmers are necessary when running diesels in the colder parts of the world.

--PSW

    Here in Finland you can get so called arctic diesel fuel which is good
    until it's below -32 degrees celsius. Hardest thing with diesels here
    is to get them started when it's really cold. In Siberia (Russia) they 
    don't stop the diesel engines of their lorries during the whole winter.
    
    - Jyri -

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    I'm sure  Volvo  made  two strokes 10-15 years ago.  You could hear the
    sound  difference  between  them and four strokes.  Diesels have a much
    longer stroke (higher compression for ignition), thus generating oodles
    of  torque.   Power  isn't so important.  You can't pull the skin off a
    rice pudding with a powerful engine if you ain't got torque.

>    of  torque.   Power  isn't so important.  You can't pull the skin off a
>    rice pudding with a powerful engine if you ain't got torque.
    
    Not so.
    You can always select the right gear to produce as much torque as you
    want. You can't do anything to increase the power. A high power low
    torque engine (with the right gear ratio) will pull the skin off your
    rice pudding faster than a lower power engine with any amount of
    torque.
    
    If an engine has a narrow power band then selecting the right gear is
    more critical (as 16valve car drivers have found out). Usually what
    someone means when they say that an engine has good 'torque' is that it
    produces more power at low revs than another engine of comparable max
    power. This normally shows up in the max torque specification of the
    engine (because max torque happens at lower revs than max power).
    
    Andrew

    Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but if my memory serves me
    correctly, Dyno's only measure torque, BHP is a figure calculated from
    measured torque, using STROKE,NUMBER OF CYLINDERS,RPM, etc.
    
    Why don't we go back to steam, Max Torque at 0 RPM!! :-)

    BHP = torque * rpm (* some constant depending on the units you measure
    			things in)
    
    A nominal power rating used to be calculated from such things a bore,
    stroke, compression ratio, number of cylinders etc. However BHP (Brake
    Horse Power) is a measured quantity (And yes, they usually do measure the
    torque and multiply by rpm).
    
    Other equations involving power and torque are
    
    Tractive effort= Power/(road speed) - losses in transmission
    
    		 = Torque * RPM/( road speed) - losses in transmission
    
    		 = Torque / (overall gear ratio*road wheel size)
    				- losses in transmission
    
    Also 
    
    Acceleration = (tractive effort - drag)/mass
    
    Note that you can find the tractive effort directly from the Power and
    speed. If you are given the Torque then you also need to know about
    gear ratios to determine the tractive effort. Torque by itself is not
    useful.
    
    Andrew

There seems to be a lot of torque from this topic  :-)

	As a previous reply wrote, fuel costs may be marginally cheaper,
Servicing costs are cheaper and residuals are somewhat better.

	Each one on its' own may not be much of a saving, but cumulatively
they become very significant!

	On a slightly different tack, Turbo-charging petrol engines usually
has a large cost in fuel comsumption, but Turbo-charging a Diesel rarely incurs
a fuel penalty of more than 10%.

	My BX averages about 41 MPG compared to 44 MPG for the 1.9 straight
Diesel predecessor.

	Also, Diesel Turbo cars usually have very long legs, my BX TZD Turbo 
is 25.9 MPH per 1000 RPM, which means that 100 MPH cruising is less than 
4,000 RPM.  The old Cavalier SRi was screaming away at 6,000 RPM at that 
speed - very tiring, just the pitch of the engine noise I found (not that 
the Cavalier was noisy), compared with the 4,000 RPM cruising.

	I find that the Diesel Turbo gives me all the performance I NEED, boy 
racers may WANT more.  I won't be going back to petrol, especially given
the price of Diesel fuel in France, Spain and Portugal compared to petrol!

	Just my own views of course.

				Malcolm.

RE:<<< Note 2100.99 by CMOTEC::POWELL "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be, is it?" >>>
�        -< Diesel Economy AND more relaxed driving.  In my experience. >-


�	I find that the Diesel Turbo gives me all the performance I NEED, boy 
� racers may WANT more.  I won't be going back to petrol, especially given
� the price of Diesel fuel in France, Spain and Portugal compared to petrol!

    I agree with all Malcolm said, especially the above.
    
    My Pug 405 estate averages 40mpg. Typical use is 2/3 a tank on short
    school runs of stop-start <3miles, followed by a high-speed motorway
    blast to the UK from Brussels. If I keep the revs under 3500 (90mph) I
    get 45mpg. If my wife could ever manage a full tank on her own, I swear
    she'd average 50mph even with all those short journies from cold.
    However, we get between 550 and 600 miles from a 70 litre tank into
    which I can never squeeze more than 62 litres, which means that it lasts
    her weeks, and then we have another trip home.
    
    It cruises happily at 100mph (<4000rpm). In fifth on the motorway I can
    accelerate from 50mph to 100mph faster than an equivalent petrol car,
    and faster than many "hot hatches", even when they drop down to fourth.
    When required, I can go 0-60mph in 11.6 seconds, and top speed is
    115mph. There is *NO WAY* a 2 litre petrol estate car, driven the way I
    drive, would return even 25mpg, never mind 40mpg. I don't believe the
    performance difference, if there is one, is worth measuring.
    
    Speaking personally, I can say with confidence, that switching to
    the diesel Pug has halved my motoring costs. I won't be going back to
    petrol, not for the "family" car, anyway.
    
    FWIW, Laurie.

My Cavalier 2.0 CDi does 40+ mph and I bet it could leave your diesel standing.
I don't know the Cavalier's revs at 100mph but it's nearer half the figure you
quoted.

Want a test drive?

Dave.

    
    
    
    Re 2100.100
    
    >>There is *NO WAY* a 2 litre petrol estate car, driven the way I
    >>drive, would return even 25mpg, never mind 40mpg.
    
    I have to dispute this, I dont drive a petrol 2 litre estate car, but
    I do drive a 2 litre MR2 (which should in theory be in a higher state of
    tune than the average 2l estate, and hence theoretically thirstier) and
    even when I *REALLY* "wellie it", my fuel consumption doesn't drop *THAT* 
    low.  I used to have to push my Renault 5 GT (Petrol) Turbo quite hard
    to drop to 25 mpg.
    
    Graham Warnes     

    A significant difference between TD cars and petrol cars with similar
    performance is the way they deliver it.  The TD's tend to be torquey
    and allow a relaxed driving style.  The petrol cars need to be worked
    harder but do have _very_ much better throttle response.  Even TD cars
    tend to be driven as cruisers by most people.  Drivers of petrol car
    seem more likley to vary their speed, TD drivers do all they can to
    maintain their speed.

    
    	Turbos on Diesels actually increases the MPG, look at your spec
    sheets if you don't believe it.
    	The converse is true of petrol cars by a long margin.

    Comparing an MR2 to a 405 estate is laughable. Also you should bear in
    mind that the estate has 5 passengers, and a *full* load space.
    
    Laurie.

RE:<<< Note 2100.101 by VANGA::KERRELL "Imagine:  It's your business, your money..." >>>

� My Cavalier 2.0 CDi does 40+ mph and I bet it could leave your diesel standing.
� I don't know the Cavalier's revs at 100mph but it's nearer half the figure you
� quoted.
    
    I should hope it does do more than 40 mpH.
    
    Actually, you're missing the point. I have an estate car, it is large
    and heavy. It is generally loaded on long trips, which is where the fuel
    consumption drops (thanks to my heavy right boot). On these trips, I
    rarely drive slowly, and even in the UK, I generally drive at 85+MPH, a
    luxury afforded by having foreign plates on the car.
    
    With all due respect, I very much doubt your car revs at under 2000rpm
    at 100 mph.
    
    Now, you say your car does 40mph+. I don't dispute that, but I do
    dispute that it would under the circumstances that mine does. All week,
    it starts in the morning, and drives 1.5 miles to school. then back
    again. Occasionally there's a trip to brownies or the supermarket, all
    within 2 miles of home. That's it for weeks on end, it never warms up.
    Then I get in on a Friday nioght, and drive fast, motorway, 90-100mph
    all the way to Calais. After that, it's 80-90mph all the way to
    Ipswich from Dover. In my Granada 2litre, it returned 18mpg. Now, I
    accept that your Cavalier is far lighter and far more modern, but, such
    usage is hardly conducive to fuel-economic driving.
    
    I'd be interested in seeing the manufacturer's fuel economy figures
    compared.
    
    Laurie.

    To clarify the points made in .99 (Malcolm Powell) and .101 (Dave
    Kerrell) - they are talking about different cars.  The former is a
    Cavalier SRi, the latter a CDi. Although they both have 2.0 litre
    engines, the CDi is much more highly geared - hence lower revs for
    a given speed.  From memory (as an ex CDi driver), it would be doing
    about 3,300 revs at 100 mph.
    
    I am now, like Laurie Brown, a Peugeot 405 turbo-diesel driver and very
    happy with the car.  I get a consistent 43 mpg - and I drive fast.  The
    main difference in driving technique (Mike Fiddler please note) is that
    I drive watching the rev counter as much as the speedometer.  This is
    because the turbo delivers its power only in the rev range 2,000 -
    4,000 rpm (this obviously doesn't apply to non-turbo diesels).
    
    One point that hasn't been made in comparing petrol engines with
    diesels is that the latter should last a lot longer - largely because
    they tend to deliver their power at lower revs and hence are less
    stressed.  Hence higher residual values.
    
    I was hoping to replace the Peugeot with either another 405 or Citroen
    Xantia with the new 1.9 turbo diesel (my 405 has the old 1.76 litre
    jobby).  It was the rumoured switch to Vauxhall, which may make this
    not a cost-effective option, which miffed me enough to start this Note
    off in the first place!
    
    Ian
    	

re .99
What were you doing??

I have a Cavalier SRi and on the odd occasion I have done near 100 mph 
the rev counter was no where near 6000 rpm. Example at 80 MPH in fofth 
gear it is around 3500 rpm about 5000 at 100mph.

regards

malc

	...it certainly doesn't rev to 6K doing 100 (on autobahns) mind
	you it is noisy.  Especially the new model that has doors so
	badly fitting the gaps are filled with massive lumps of rubber
	that harden slightly with age and generate a *lot* of wind noise.
	However, on a motorway run we get 40+ per gallon and around town
	we get 35 or so.  When my wife drops it as her lease car we will
	not be buying a Cavalier as the family barge.  Whilst it is reliable
	it is expensive to run (ie insurance) and badly built.  A diesel pug
	405 estate was on my list of cars to start looking at.  I cannot
	see me towing but my father in law swears by his Vauxhall Cavalier 
	diesal automatic for his weekend gypsying because of the low down
	torque (as opposed to my mother in law's high up talk).

	Dave

Re -.1

I think we are in danger of ratholing here.

I am on my second Cavalier, both have performed well, no rattles, gaps 
in doors etc and both have been well built, reliabel and relatively 
economical. Also the SRi is an excellent towcar due to it's low end 
torque - I tow a caravan regularly. I have looked at the 405 in the past 
and felt it to be solid but have known many people who would never get 
one again!

All this proves is that the cars you like are influenced by your own 
perception and experiences of those cars.
rgeards

malcolm

re -.1

apologies for my typos

regards
malcolm

    Well moved, the moderator, this was a grade 1 rathole!
    
    I can only endorse Ian Currie's comments. Every one who's ridden in my
    Pug has been very surprised at the performance and the quietness of the
    car. I have the new 1900 engine, and I think it's a cracker. Here, for
    Dave Kerrell, are the manufacturer's fuel consumption figures. I know
    for sure that they can be bettered with a little reservation of the
    loud pedal.
    
    		Urban		56mph		75mph
    
    Non-turbo:  39.8		55.4		37.2
    Turbo:  	34.0		53.3		39.2
    
    Laurie.
    
    PS. Just filled up, average 44mpg, including a *very* high-speed trip
        back from the UK.

Re.whatever

Laurie, I was claiming nearer half the 6000rpm figure. I've done a trip to the
Alps and back from the UK in the CDi. 5up, roof rack, full boot, cruising at
80-90mph and got 42mpg. Why should I pay more for a diesel turbo for 3mpg
advantage?

Dave.

    HOw can all you chaps get such good petrol consumption?  I have an
    Astra SRI (1800), I drive carefully these days, keep my revs to 3500
    max as a rule (75mph), getup into higher gears as soon as I can, and I
    still cant get to the end of the drive without using a gallon of
    petrol.  Maybe there are some terrorist diesel supporters drilling
    holes in my tank.
    
    I had a Cavalier 1.7TD as a hire car (I get lots of hire cars), and I
    was seriously impressed with how quiet it was, and the fuel
    consumption.  On a round trip to Reading, I expect to pay around 22 quid
    in petrol, but I fork out just less than 17 quids in the diesel.
    
    Mikef

    If turbo-diesels are so versatile (I don't dispute such claims), I see
    no reason for there not to be a soft-top turbo-diesel made by somebody. 
    Any clues?
    
    Andy

    Wouldn't have to fit an alarm on a diesel either.... 
    Joyriding in a diesel... Now there's a concept.
    
    Stephen
    

    
    Re.59
    
    I think Westfield did a diesel prototype recently, but you imply you
    don't like metal roofs, so you must have experienced sitting behind a
    diesel with the roof down. I hate it!
    
    BTW, my old Boss in Belgium thought my car was a diesel because it had
    'turbo' written on the back of it ....

    Is it true, or just my imagination, that Chrysler/Talbot had to get up
    on their hind legs and deny the existence of diesel versions of the
    Alpine/Solara series....?
    
    Richard
    

    I have a 2CV and regularly drive at 120mph+ and get 85mpg.

    Ian.

    Is that diesel 2CV and do you have the top down?
    
    Richard
    

    This subject raises it's ugly head with monotonous regularity. Someone
    expounds the  advantages of Diesels, a petrol patriot then goes on at
    length  about how he can get  equal performance economy etc from his
    high performance jobby!.

Fact:
    Every manufacturer and official body recognises that diesels ARE more
    fuel  efficient, I doubt that even you could match the 112MPG measured
    (and verified  independantly by the RAC) by the AX 1.4 diesel in a long
    distance run. (not a test  track theoretical)

    Further, if the 1.8 SRi cavalier could produce such astounding milage
    over general  use, don't you think Vauxhall would be shouting it from
    the rooftop?. Crowing about  how much better it was than their own
    diesel engined equivalents?.

    It's no good comparing what you do with anyone else, you've got to
    measure like for  like. So whatever milage your getting (calculated
    whichever way you do) you will  undoubtedly get better driving a diesel
    IN THE SAME MANNER. 

    Let's get back to reality: there are some of us who think Td's are the
    best thing  since sliced bread, there are other's who'd never entertain
    the idea of driving an  oil burner and will quote all amnner of
    'statistics' to prove themselves right.

    In the end you can only take your own opinions as the judge.

Richard
    

re.66:

That all sounds very sensible but when I see diesel/turbo fanatics claiming
the same mpg/loads/revs as my petrol car don't expect me to get excited!

Dave.

To add my experience to this debate; I changed in February from a BX TD
to a Cavalier 2.0 petrol.

My type of driving is the same.

I used to get about 45  mpg overall with the TD; my petrol average is
down to about 34. On a long run *at constant speeds* the petrol cavalier
will do around 40. The BX TD would do approaching 50 on the same
run.

As a few people have pointed out, there is a different driving style
required. The TD has plenty of torque in the low and mid range; the petrol
cavalier has plenty in the mid and high range. You quickly adjust.

What used to cost me about �22 in the TD now costs me about �27 in petrol.

It was my choice, to trade the extra cost of a TD against the higher running
costs of a petrol engined car. 

Diesel fuel is usually a little cheaper than unleaded petrol; this often
reverses in winter, as diesel is used as a heating fuel in the US, so if
they have a bad winter demand goes up.

The EEC tax harmonisation should in theory reduce the price of diesel in
the UK. Don't hold your breath for it, though.

Peter

    On prices, here in Belgium diesel is the only sensible choice. 4-star
    is 66p a litre here, and diesel is 46p. The comparison between my
    Granada estate and the Pug is incredible. My Granada cost me �38 a
    tankfull here, and returned, at most 220 miles. The Pug costs me �28 to
    fill and I get between 550 and 600 miles from the tank. So, in fuel
    costs alone:
    
    Granada = 17.27p per mile
    Peugeot =  4.6p per mile.
    
    It's simple, if rather extreme as the Granny was a 2litre automatic.
    However, for me, there's no question diesel is cheaper, and even a more
    modern car petrol of equivalent size is really not going to come close.
    The fuel figures in the Peugeot handbook for the 405 estate are as
    follows:
    
            urban   56     76
    petrol  24.6 / 44.8 / 35.3
    diesel  39.8 / 55.4 / 37.2
    Tdiesel 34.0 / 53.3 / 39.2
    
    Laurie.

re.69:

Laurie,
	that example is not extreme, it's ridiculous!
Ciao,
Dave ;-)

       
    Yesterday I spent 3.5 hours in a Citroen BX Turbo Diesel,and I must say
    I was very impressed with it's smoothness,noise and comfort levels and
    it's torque at 2000rpm and above.
    	But,it's not advisable to take bends at speeds INXS of 40 mph.It's
    road handling stinks!
    	
    
    	Andy.Very impressed and will certainly look at the ZX TD. 
                                     

    �Andy.Very impressed and will certainly look at the ZX TD.
    
    Check out the Volcane Turbo D. I've recently driven one of these and
    was very impressed. 
    
    Don't know how much they'll be with the new car scheme though :-)
    
    Royston

    RE: .71
    
    Personally, I wouldn't give a Citroen garage-space, but since it has
    the Peugeot engine, and you like it, why not try the Pug 405 TD? It
    handles and drives really well.
    
    Laurie.

    
    Laurie,
    	The engine was the most impressive factor of the Citroen,but the 
    suspension gives a good ride on the motorway.
    		       ^^^^^^^^^
                           ^
    			phnar,phnar
    
    
    Andy

    Anyone have any idea what the price of a litre of diesel is these days? 
    Unleaded petrol can vary between 45.9p to 51.9p if you shop around.
    
    Ta
    
    Mikef

    In Tesco/Sainsburys/etc,  Diesel is about the same as unleaded.
    
    At least, in Basingstoke and Newbury.  45.2 is the best I've seen it
    (before yesterdays budget).
    
    Jc