Conference terri::cars_uk

I would have thought that the best people to answer that 
question would be an insurance company/broker.

As I understand it, a car needs to be insured, otherwise
you can't get a TAX disk, and without a tax disk, the
car cannot be driven on public roads.


Ian

	Well,


	I have fully comp, (the writing says for any car I own!) it allows me 
	to drive other cars third party.


	I bought a landrover.


	I was NOT covered to drive the landrover, as it had no insurance cover
	of its own!


	This is what my broker said is true of all insurance.
	I checked with Royal Insurance, who confirmed this.

	
	Heather

I think what they meant was that to get the tax disc the landy had to have been 
insured by someone, but their policy did not have to insure you to drive it. The
tax disc would then be valid and your insurances third party cover would allow
you to drive the landy.

Wonder how many people have broken this rule?

Nigel

    
    I was in a similar situation to .0 - I wanted to drive a friends car,
    (which was Tax'ed etc) but for which the owners insurance had expired.
    My own policy says the usual "any vehicle" stuff, and (from this
    conference) people suggested that I could not drive it. I checked with
    the brokers, and was told - no problem, but I would only be covered for
    the legal minimum. ie third party. I think some confusion arises if you
    own the vehicle, but the whole wording of this part of policies seems
    to be confusing.
    
    ps - _any_ car insurance document, (if it does not specify a registration
    no.) will be accepted at the post office when you tax a car. The name
    on the registration document does not have to be the same as the
    insurer. I've done it - 

There is a problem if a car is on the road and its owner does not have insurance
for it, viz:

Mr A owns a car, which is taxed, etc and road-legal in every respect except Mr A
can't drive it because he has no insurance.  Mr B has an insurance policy which
gives him third party cover to drive any vehicle (with the owners permission,
etc).  Mr B borrows Mr A's car, drives it somewhere and parks it.  While parked
the handbrake fails and the car rolls down a hill and causes some damage.

Mr B's insurance will not cover the damage because he wasn't driving the vehicle
at the time.  Mr A is liable for the damage, but has no insurance to cover it,
so he is possibly breaking the law by allowing the car on the highway without
it being properly insured...

My understanding of insurance policies is that they cover a specific group of
people (eg "insured only", "insured and spouse", "anyone") and a specific
vehicle or vehicles.  "Third party for any vehicle" cover is a perk which
assumes the vehicle is insured in its own right by the owner (ie the "specific
vehicles" bit above).

The wording on my policy says I have third party cover to drive any vehicle
*which I do not own*, plus vehicles which I own and which I have told my
insurers about.  I must inform the insurers of any vehicles I own so that
they can be insured in their own right, otherwise they are not insured in
scenarios such as the above.

Hope that makes sense...

Scott

    .5 has got it. You can drive it, but you can't park it.
    
    Nothing in law to say you cannot park it on private land, but there is
    no cover whilst you are not driving it.
    
    Steve

	More info........

			......I hate doing this after the orriginal note

				.................I appologise

	The landrover was taxed,


	and it would not have made any difference if my husband had bought
	it, and I drove it - we asked about this.


	It did not have insurance in its own right , therefore I was unable to
	drive it on my insurance.


	but I do wish the insurance policies were much clearer on this.


	Heather

    
    re the business about parking the 'uninsured' vehicle. My brokers told
    me that it would be insured (for the third party damage only) while I
    was "in charge of the vehicle" ie if I took it into town, parked it (on
    the street, in a car park etc) any third party damage was coved. As
    soon as my friend had re-taken charge of the vehicle then there would be
    no cover.  I cross-examined the brokers extensibly (and spoke to the
    Police) because of all the discussion that had been started in this
    notes file under a similar topic.  Maybe insurance policies vary.
    
    The only thing I would add, is that I'm glad nothing happened which
    would have meant trying to sort out any claims!

    The usual words that the insured may also drive a car not belonging to
    him etc etc give as has already been noted, the legal minimum cover
    required by the Road Traffic Acts.  This is NOT the "Third Party" we
    all think we know and love...it only covers injury or death to Third
    Party "people" not property.
    
    In other words don't rely on it.

If you've got comprehensive insurance, you can drive
someone elses car on Third party insurance, but I 
would've thought that the car needs insurance of it's 
own too.

D'you know what I mean!!


ian

    FWIW I've been down this road before (no pun intended).	
    
    I asked my broker and he catagorically (spelling?) stated that a
    vehicle has to be insured. So even if you can drive other cars and
    they are road legal in every sense but not insured, YER CANNOT DRIVE
    IT!
    
    Roy

To make things a little more confusing how would you be fixed for insurance if 
it were a Company Car that I were insured on and wanted to drive Mr.Joesph 
Bloggs, car. If the company I worked for like D.E.C. had blanket cover.

(Answer that one if you can.)

Kieran.

    re.12
    
    Simple ! If you mean what i think. If you drive a company car (ie
    DEC)but do not have any insurance cover yourself, you can only drive mr
    bloggs car if his insurance covers you. DEC company car insurance only
    covers drivers of dec company cars !
    
    - Roy

    re .11
    
    How can it be that your Insurance Broker catagorically says "no" and
    mine (and the Police I spoke to) say "yes". I'm not trying to be awkward, 
    I'm just worried that someone is being given 'mis-information'.
    
    Is the difference in the insurance policy, or in the interpretation of
    "in charge of" a vehicle. I agree that a vehicle must not be parked
    on public highway uninsured, and that my friend could not park on the
    road as he had not insured the vehicle, but I could park it while I was
    responsible for it.

    
>    How can it be that your Insurance Broker catagorically says "no" and
>    mine (and the Police I spoke to) say "yes". I'm not trying to be awkward, 
>    I'm just worried that someone is being given 'mis-information'.
 
	Now, that's the secret of the insurance industry.

	My broker was quite adamant that it applied to all policies.

	My insurnace company confirmed it was true for them (Royal Insurance).

	The policy is a 30+ policy.
	Fully comp, with hubby as named driver.
	2 protected no-cliams in 3 years
	3rd-party cover on other cars.  (or not as above)

	Heather

As I understand it, from my insurance brokers (don't laugh they are called ...
Snowball Insurance Brokers), that most policies offer cover to drive another 
vehicle (Road traffic Act only) if the vehicle (owner?) has its own insurance.
But they don't have to give this cover if they don't want to.

There is in fact a method of driving a vehicle without 'insurance' legally.

All you have to do is (if my memory serves me right) deposit ate your local
town hall a small summ of money. I think this sum is in the order of half a
million or sum other silly amount.

Needless  to say I shall not be doing this    :-)


Simon.

	Just to amuse you all...

	I have a friend, who, three days after he passed his driving
	test, lost control of his car in Shepperton and drove it
	through the plate glass window of the shop belonging to...
	his insurance broker!

	Who says there's no justice in this world?

Re: .13

DEC Fleet Car Insurance is minimum cover (Third Party only) anyway.

Any loss, damage etc is covered by the Cost Center that "owns" that car.

In my experience of brokers, they don't know the first thing about insurance.

When I had an accident and wanted to claim off the other driver's insurance,
my broker told me I would have to pursue the claim myself as my cover didn't
include him or the insurers pursuing my claim.  I found out over a year later
that I had been paying some extra amount for the insurers to pursue any claim
on my behalf, but the broker didn't understand the policy so didn't tell me...

My mum's broker pursued a claim on her behalf: all they did was forward letters
from the other party to my mum for her "comments", then forward her replies
to the other party... how useful...

Brokers are definitely Golgafrincham 'B' Ark material...

Scott

Moral: don't trust a broker, if in doubt about what your insurance covers,
get it in writing direct from the insurance company.

    
    Well, when i had my 'accident' i nearly didn't get anything.  It was
    only when i rang up my broker one day to find out how things were going
    that i was told that the insurance company were going to send the money
    in the next couple of days to the lease company !
    
    I couldn't make the person understand that lease and lease purchase
    were completely different, and even the manager didn't seem to be clued
    up.  I ended up speaking to the insurance company direct and the first
    person there didn't have a clue either.  Luckily their supervisor did,
    and it all got sorted out...
    
    Personally i think brokers are a waste of time when it comes to claims.
    
    Has any one else noticed that they always put you on hold for about a
    minute before they will let you say anything apart from your name.  The
    last time i rang them i knew it was going to happen ( i was getting
    temporary cover for a hire car - ie a transfer) and i told them that he
    could take the details, then look at the file, because he wasn't
    wasting my money again.  He seemed rather put out....
    
    Nigel                                                                  

Re: .9

>    him etc etc give as has already been noted, the legal minimum cover
>    required by the Road Traffic Acts.  This is NOT the "Third Party" we
>    all think we know and love...it only covers injury or death to Third
>    Party "people" not property.
    
I think the law has been changed to require cover for property damage in
the legal minimum.

jb

    Re.18
    
    Not quite right, DEC's Lease car insurance is full Third Party but the
    lease cost and C/C contribution include a "comprehensive" premium so
    that damage to your car is paid for by an insurance fund.  It is not
    paid for as a direct C/C charge.  Included in that comp premium are
    goodies like legal costs insurance for DEC and you if you have a
    personal claim for injuries etc.  
    
    This particular rathole is noted elsewhere.
    
    Re.21  Thanks Jeremy, I'll read the RTA (as amended) again, but I'm
    sure you got the point, don't rely on the small print on an insurance
    certificate
    
    Doug

    I have just heard some of the new insurance groupings, and they made
    quite interesting reading (or hearing as the case may be ;^).  The
    particular examples I was told are as follows :-
    
    The groups have increased from 9 to 20.
    
    CAR					Old Group	New Group
    
    Ford Escort 1.4l			    4		    5
    Ford Orion Ghia (not i)		    5		    7
    Rover 214 S				    4		    7
    Rover 214 SLi			    4		    8
    Rover 214 GTi			    5		   10
    Escort XR3i				    5		   13
    BMW 318i/320			    7		   13
    Ford Sierra Cosworth		    8		   16
    Audi Quattro			    9		   20
    
    
    I did'nt understand how Cossie was only a group 16 !!!
    
    If I hear any more I will post them here.
    
    
    Shaun.

    Are these groups decided on by value,engine size,age .........or is it
    a combination of these things ??
    
    I have a 1976 Triumph Spitfire 1500 (bought for 1200) and I think I am
    in group 6......where will I be in the new groups - any ideas ??
    
    Bazza
    

>>    Are these groups decided on by value,engine size,age .........or is it
>>    a combination of these things ??
    
    Pass.
    
    Ask me one on sport.
    
    
    Shaun
    

	There was a large list a couple of months ago in the money mail.

	From what I can remember of the groupings:

	Expect your group to double, is if its a 6, then expect a 12.

	HOWEVER they have now taken into consideration the security of the car,
	and the saftey of the car - and a couple of other things I can't
	remember.	    

	Heather

>>	HOWEVER they have now taken into consideration the security of the car,
>>	and the saftey of the car - and a couple of other things I can't
>>	remember.	    
    
    That does'nt say much for the quattro then does it ?
    
    It's not the fatsest car on the market. Its not the most expensive car
    on the market.  I would'nt have thought it was unsafe. I would'nt have
    expected it to be particularily picked on by thieves, yet its stil at
    the top of the shop ?
    
    Shaun.
    

	I was told by an insurance company that if your car's group
	went up to exactly double what it is now, the premium would
	decrease slightly. So expect more than a doubling of the
	group because I don't believe the premiums are going to be
	less next year!

	Graham

    I now have a more comprehensive list, with some details of how the
    ratings have been calculated.  I will enter them here later when I have
    time to do so.
    
    
    Shaun.

    Doesn't the cost of repairs count for a lot?
    
    Laurie.

    Warning previous reply contains 100 lines !
    
    

    
    Only Joking.
    
    The following note is 100 line long for all you DECwindows watchers.
    
    Shaun.

O.K. the details are as follows :-


The formula use to calculate the new ratings has taken into consideration the
following :-

	1)	The cars price
	2)	The cars repair times
	3)	Damage and parts costs
	4)	Body shell availability
	5)	Performance
	6)	Security


CAR					    Old Group        New Group

Alfa Romeo 73 3.0i V6 Cloverleaf		8		16
Audi 80 Sport 16V				7		14
Audi 100 2.0E					6		14
Audi 100 2.3E					7		14
Audi Quattro 20V				9		20
BMW 316i					6		10
BMW 318i					6		11
BMW 320i					7		13
BMW 518i SE					7		13
Citroen AX 11 TRS				3		 5
Citroen BX 16 TGS				4		 8
Citroen BX 19 GTi				6		14
Citroen BX 19 TZD				4		 8
Citroen XM 2.0 Si				6		12
Citoren ZX Aura					4		 8
Citoren ZX Volcane				6		13
Fiat Tempra 1.6					5		 9
Fiat Tipo 1600 DGT				5		12
Ford Escort XR3i				5		13
Ford Escort LX 1.4				4		 5
Ford Escort LX 1.6				4		 7
Ford Fiesta 1.1 LX				3		 6
Ford Fiesta 1.6S				4		 9
Ford Fiesta XR2i				5		14
Ford Granada 2.0i LX				6		12
Ford Granada Scorpio Cat.			7		13
Ford Orion Ghia					4		 6
Ford Sapphire 1.6 LX				4		 8
Ford Sapphire 1.8 LX				4		 9
Ford RS Cosworth				8		16
Ford Sapphire 2.0i 4x4				6		12
Ford Sapphire 2.0 GLX				5		10
Ford Sierra 2.0i GLS				5		11
Ford Sierra XR4x4i				6		14
Jaguar Sovereign 4.0				8		17
Jaguar XJ6 3.2					8		16
Lexus LS400					9		18
Mazda 323 1.5 LX				5		 9
Mazda 626 1.8 GLX				5		11
Mercedes 190E					6		12
Mercedes 200E					7		13
Mitsubishi Colt GLX				5		 9
Mitsubishi Galant GL				5		10
Nissan 200 SX					8		16
Nissan Primera 1.6 LS				5		11
Nissan Sunny LX					5		10
Nissan Sunny ZX					6		13
Peugot 205 GTi 1.9				6		14
Peugot 309 GLX					3		 5
Peugot 405 GL					4		 6
Peugot 405 Mi16 4x4				6		14
Peugot 605 SLi					6		12
Proton 1.5 GL					4		 7
Renault 21 GTS					5		10
Renault 25 GTS					6		13
Renault Clio 1.4 RN				3		 5
Rover 214 S					4		 7
Rover 414 Si					4		 8
Rover 416 GTi					6		14
Rover 820 Si					6		16
Rover Metro 1.4 SL				3		 6
Rover Montego 1.6 LX				4		10
Rover Montego MG Turbo				6		14
Saab 900S					7		14
Saad 9000 CD XS					8		16
Seat Malaga 1.5 GL				4		 7
Toyota Carina 1.6 XL				5		10
Toyota Corolla GL Executive			5		 9
Vauxhall Calibra 16V				7		14
Vauxhall Carlton 2.0i CDX			6		12
Vauxhall Carlton 2.0i L				6		12
Vauxhall Cavalier GL				3		 7
Vauxhall Cavalier 1.6 GL			4		 8
Vauxhall Cavalier 2.0 GL			5		10
Vauxhall Cavalier 2000 GSi			6		13
Vauxhall Senator 2.6i				6		12
Volkswagen Golf CL Diesel			5		 8
Volkswagen Golf GTi				5		11
Volkswagen Passat L				6		10
Volkswagen Polo CL				3		 4
Volvo 340					4		 8
Volvo 440 GLi					5		 6
Volvo 940 SE					6		15

    

    

    Re .32

�The formula use to calculate the new ratings has taken into consideration the
�following :-

�	1)	The cars price
�	2)	The cars repair times
�	3)	Damage and parts costs
�	4)	Body shell availability
�	5)	Performance
�	6)	Security
    

    It's amazing what the jolly old insurance companies consider 
    important when you might only want third party cover! 
    
    

    
    So. Since the Calibra has gone from 7 to 14, I can expect a drop in my
    premium?
    
    Mark
    
    PS I read somewhere that Vauxhalls, Fords and (maybe) Volkswagens had
    benefited under the new ratings because of the attempts (I stress that
    word) that they are making on protecting their models from tea-leaves.
    

>>    So. Since the Calibra has gone from 7 to 14, I can expect a drop in my
>>    premium?
    
    Isn't there a smiley missing here ?
    
    But seriosly though, according to the article, I would expect your
    premium to remain the same (They won't let many people benifit from the
    changes will they ? ;^).
    
    I the same article as a small section about car thefts, and a few
    examples of how long it takes to get into different cars.  What they
    found was the following :-
    
    CAR					Time taken to get in
    Renault Clio				 8.3 Seconds
    Nissan Primera				15.4 Seconds
    Rover 416                                   16.1 Seconds
    Peugot 405                                  58.3 Seconds
    Ford Escort (New shape)                     13.0 Minutes
    Vauxhall Cavalier                           21.0 Minutes
    
    
    So, as long as you never leave you Vauxhall unattended for more than 20
    minutes, it should never go missing ;^)
    
    
    Shaun.

    
�            <<< Note 1220.35 by FUTURS::LEECH "O.K. Mr. Moley..." >>>
� 
� >>    So. Since the Calibra has gone from 7 to 14, I can expect a drop in my
� >>    premium?
�    
�    Isn't there a smiley missing here ?
    
    There's not much to smile about when it comes to insuring the Calibra!
    I can't understand how the insurers can justify �130 difference between
    a 8 valve and a 16 valve - and that was on the BEST quote I got (350 -
    8v, 480 - 16v).
    
    Mark
    

	Those valves are obviously very expensive to replace
	:-)


	Mark.

    If you opt for the 8-valve calibra, your primary requirement is a
    respectibly fast, stylish coupe.  
    
    If you need the 16-valve stormin' Vauxhall engine, you don't consider 
    the 8-valve's performance up to your requirements.  Therefore you will
    use the added performance over the 8-valve.  Hence the higher risk and
    so increased premium.
    
    Rob.

    
    Maybe, but I reckon 130 mph is pretty damned quick and I certainly
    never drive the 16 Valve at over that speed. I can see the argument
    between a 1.3/1.6 and a 3.0 litre Capri, but 10 mph at 130 or 140
    doesn't seem to be worth worrying about.
    
    If the speed's the factor surely the Calibra 8 valve should be rated
    higher too.
    
    Mark
    
    PS I only got the 16 valve because it's more economical!

    I would imagine that it's the improved acceleration that would be used
    as opposed to the top speed. The acceleration times for the 8v Calibra
    aren't all that good.
    
             Niall

    
    Maybe. I still reckon it's the 'Ah it says 16 valve' con!
    
    Mark

>>    Maybe, but I reckon 130 mph is pretty damned quick and I certainly
>>    never drive the 16 Valve at over that speed.
    
    If thats the case, as I never drive the 911 over that speed either,
    does that mean I can pay the same premium as for an 8V Calibra ?
    
    
    Shaun.
    
    
    

    
    Ah, but how much would it cost to repair a crashed 911? A lot more than
    a Calibra. However, other than some mechanics there's no difference
    between an 8 and 16 valve Calibra. Repairing a rear end shunt or a 
    front wing should cost exactly the same.
    
    I'm not suggesting that there should be NO difference between the two
    models (obviously the extra performance will affect the premium to some
    extent), but the difference (about 40%) does seem a lot and isn't
    justified (IMO) by the greater performance (that it is, 0-60 difference
    is about 1 second, but some mid-range figures are wider) of the 16
    valve car.
    
    Mark

>>        -< Would you rather pay for a Vauxhall wing or a Porsche one? >-
    
    I have to agree, I would much prefer to have to buy a Vauxhall wing
    (its a pity it would'nt suit the car though ;^).
    
    I have to agree with you comments regarding the Calibra though, as far
    a differences go there certainly is'nt a 40% higher risk driving a 16V
    as apposed to driving an 8V.  Rut and I were commenting yesterday about
    the categories, and it appears if it has an 'i' after the name the
    premium is increased, and if it dares to have '16V' after the name, the
    premium increases further.  I also wondered if someone from Ford had a
    hand in the dealings with some of the cars highlighted (A Cossie only
    being a 16 ? and an Onion Ghia only being a 6 ?).  I doubt whether many
    people will benefit from the new ratings, the only thing we don't know
    yet is how the premiums are going to equate in the new groupings.
    
    I suppose we will just have to grin and bear it.
    
    
    Shaun.

    Just paid my renewal premium...
    
    1989 Ford Escort RS Turbo = 1070.50 TPF&T (2 years NCD) !!! :-((
    
    It's gone up from last year too!
    They even stipulated that they would not insure it unless a good alarm,
    Pedalok, and locking wheel nuts were fitted. They've got themselves 
    pretty well covered there I think, because if I crash it, then it's no
    skin off their nose unless I hit anyone else of course.
    
    Premiums over here in Northern Ireland are astronomical when compared
    with the rest of Britain.
    
    Gary (I hate insurance companies, and all they stand forv :-)

    
    Well anyone with a boy racer RS Turbo deserves all they get premium
    wise! :^)
    
    As far as I can see the only hope I've got of ever improving my
    premium (which does indeed look paltry next to yours) is to become 
    over 50 and qualify for the oldies insurance (Not sure they'd touch
    a Calibra Turbo 4x4 though! :^)). I even got married 'coz someone said
    insurance was cheaper - well it is, but for my wife, not me! She gets
    to drive the Calibra and the Marcos for nothing and I get to drive her
    FIAT Uno 45S!
    
    Mark (29, live in rural Hampshire, Full NCB for years, No convictions
    - ever (Touch wood!))
    
    PS I had a quote similar to Gary's when the woman thought I said G13
    rather than GU13, so Glasgow's probably not much better than N.I.

    Related digression......
    
    I owned on of the very first Escort RS1600s. When I went into my
    insurance brokers, he couldn't find it on the list, so he phoned the
    insurance co. They said "oh, just use the top Escort band, but go up
    one group as the engine's bigger (1300 vs 1600).
    
    So for 1 year, my Escort was group 4. Next year they'd realised the
    error of their ways and it was group 7 plus 50% (Group 8 hadn't been
    invented then....)
    
    Those were the days .....
    
    JK

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    The group  are  percentages?  If the car costs more, you're paying more
    anyway.

    Insurance is  a crooks business.  This calculation stuff is CRAP.  They
    put a car in a group by the following means:

	Performance (up a few) - you're willing to pay for it
	Cost        (up lots) -  you're willing to pay for it
	"Sportieness" (up)    -  you're willing to pay for it

    So there's  your profit.  Now for cash flow, you offer low rates to the
    part-time punters with dog cars.

    You don't believe me? Ask for their statistics and see 'em run.