Conference terri::cars_uk

           <<< Note 1218.0 by COMICS::FISCHER "Y'can't touch this" >>>
                              -< Diesels (again) >-

>Can anyone suggest something similar in size to the Rover
>(4/5 door) with similar performance. BTW It has to cheap!
>(around #10,000 - #11500)


Citroen BX ?  1.7 1.9 and 1.7 turbo charged diesels

    How about getting a VW Golf CL Turbo diesel with BBS alloy wheels.	
    
    You get good performance for a diesel, and with the spot lamps in
    the grill which is standard, its looks like a GTi !
    
    Like you I'm thinking about a diesel as well, but the BX looks too	
    boring.
    
    The Golf is very cheap as well.
    
    Roy
    

    Have you thought of the VW Jetta Turbo Diesel?
    
    About �10500 new, �150 on the lease scheme, 40 mpg lowest (with nearer
    50 achievable if you don't cane it), upgraded spec for '91 model year,
    massive boot (23 cu ft!!, ie 50% larger than a Cavalier hatchback's!),
    VW solidity, good seats (if you like them hard), + good refinement,
    13.0 secs to 60, top speed 100, reasonable in-gear performance, +
    more......
    
    I'm going to go for one next time I think for the same reasons as you.
    
    Incidentally, I've written a program in BASIC that works out your total
    annual cost of running a lease car (it does assume you don't pay 40%
    tax :-) ); if anyone wants to mail me for it, they can have a copy of it.
                                                                
    
    Stephen

    For a dirt cheap one, try the SEAT IBIZA deisel...I think it lists at
    about #6700, and was recently reviewed in one of the Car magazines.
    Has anyone got a copy of the review they could send me ?
    
    Cheers ..Tim Gerry@WLC

re: .-1

           <<< Note 1218.0 by COMICS::FISCHER "Y'can't touch this" >>>

>Can anyone suggest something similar ... to the Rover
>(4/5 door) with similar performance. 

for a diesel to do this I guess it would have
to be a Turbo Diesel unit

Anyone got any ecperience of the Peugeot 309 GRTD
It's a 1.8 Turbo diesel engine for only just over 
#11k. Cheaper than the Golf GTD, but not such a 
nice looker.


Ian

And don't forget the Montego Turbo Diesel.

    Ian, I agree that the 309 is not such a good looker, and that the
    turbo diesel golf is a good idea. Do you know if VW are dropping
    the CL turbo diesel in favour of the more expensive GTD ?
    
    -Roy
    
    P.S. If you go for a test drive in a golf, I'd like to come along
    unless anyone out there has got one i could try (turbo diesel that
    is) ?????

Montegos are OK if you don't mind the rattles, sqeaks and 
outdated looks.


Ian_whos_got_a_montego_hire_car

VW are upgrading their diesels.

The CL Turbo will be replaced by the GTD
and the Umwelt Diesel will include 
central locking as standard (wow!)

Ian

    re .6;
    
    be careful - the Pug 309TD doesn't have an intercooler, so it's about
    15 bhp down on the BX and 405 TD's.
    
    The Montego TD is quite slow; but it is economical to run, and cheap to
    buy.
    
    The Fiat Tipo TD is pretty good; I would have got one, but you can't
    get ABS on it yet.
    
    The Ford TD's are better than before; it's in the Sierra now, and the
    new Escort and Orion will have it in a month. It's got reasonable
    performance.
    
    The BX (what, me biased?) TD's have good performance and economy,
    and are pretty well equipped.
    
    BX TGD Turbo is �11,531, while the TZD Turbo is �12,796.
    Not as cheap as they used to be, and ABS is about �800 extra.
    (BTW so is air-conditioning, which may be useful in summer!)
    
    My TZDT gives me 45 or 46 mpg, driving pretty hard on mainly motorways
    and A roads; very little town driving. If I switch the a/c off, it gives
    me 2 mpg more. The performance is good, especially in overtaking
    situations.
    
    And diesel is now approx. 20p less than unleaded, and up to 35p less
    than 4* in most places.
    
    However; don't forget that diesels are noisier, a little slower, and
    more expensive to buy than petrol engined versions. If you do a
    reasonablemileageat your own expense, they are probably worth it.
    
    If most of your mileage is on business and claimable, then there's not
    much in it, unless you do a very high mileage, in which case the
    "profit' on the 8p/mile will outweigh the higher lease costs of the
    diesel.
    
    I'm very happy to give test drives in my car, if you're in the SBP area.
    If you want a longer term swap, mail me and we'll see if we can work it
    out. I'm working mainly on a customer site until next month.
    
    My 2p's worth.
    
    Peter.
    

    re .-1
    
    Thanks Peter, a very worth while contribution.

    I've got a Escort 1.8 diesel out at the moment on 24 hour loan. It's
    not a turbo but gives quite impressive performance all the same, a lot
    better than previous models I have driven. It also has four-way
    speakers, central locking and 5 speed g/b as standard.
    
    Colin

    I thought that Diesel was generally cheaper that the other forms of
    fuel because it requires less refining - with the gulf crisis, are
    Diesel prices not going to rise as much as normal petrol ( as as % of
    actual price) ?
    
    Paul

The Gulf crisis is not making petrol more expensive.  Blatant greed and
profiteering by petrol companies is the only reason for higher prices.  The
Gulf is just a (thin) excuse.  Hence the reason why 4* is going up more than
other forms of fuel; they sell more of it, so can make more profit out of a
price increase...

Cynical of REO

Diesel prices are based on a different market to petrol.


re .-1 I agree

Ian

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1223.0                      Maestro Deisel?                      No replies
PEKING::GERRYT                                        4 lines  13-SEP-1990 12:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Maestro Deisel 2.0 litre Perkins unit is supposed to be very
    economical...up to 78 mpg  and costs about #7800 I believe.
    
    Timbo

    >>>I've got a Escort 1.8 diesel out at the moment on 24 hour loan.
    
    Which model is it, Colin? I own one of the `old' ones.... Mine's a
    Ghia, because at the time I bought it, Ford's offer on Diesels only
    extended to that level of trim. In addition to central locking, 5-speed
    g/b and 4-way stereo, it also has electric front windows, electrically
    adjustable, heated door mirrors and tilt/slide sunroof fitted as
    standard.
    
    /Ben

    	Can't remember the model but it was a pretty "basic" one ; even so
    it had central locking, electric front windows, four-way speakers,
    manual sunroof, 5-speed g/b. Quite nice trim and level of "extras",
    actually - I was impressed. The engine was extremely "lumpy" though ;
    nowhere near as smooth as my BX....!! But it went! Let me know if you
    want to know the exact model derivative - I've the brochure at home.
    
    Colin

    A small car that is coming out soon that might be of interest is a 	
    Pug 205 turbo diesel.	
    
    I understand that its the same engine as the 309 GRTD.

re Peugeot Diesels 

They've no intercooler so they don't have much 
in the way of power. I'd have thought Peugeot
would be thinking about a replacement/facelift
to the 205 soon.


Ian

    Has anyone any details of Deisel cars under 1400cc...how economical are
    they, and is the power output too low & noise too high to warrant 
    considering them ?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tim

I would have thought a 1400 or less Diesel engine would be slower
than a C5!


Ian

>>      <<< Note 1218.23 by COMICS::FISCHER "I've got a special purpose" >>>

>>I would have thought a 1400 or less Diesel engine would be slower
>>than a C5!

    Then look at the Citroen Visa diesel! 1360cc, 0-60 about 12 seconds,
    beats many 1.6 petrol engined cars (e.g. sierra, cavalier)
    
    Richard

 RE.22
This car seems great if the mileage is limited. Shopping, nipping to work
10-15 miles journeys. 

 70+ MPG at 56 
 50ish MPG Urban
 55 MPG at 75 MPH - Yes it tops 90+ and if you can bear the noise stay there
		    all day
Power output 55BHP in a car that weighs in at 850Kg
0-60 15 secs  Approx

If you want I can bring in What CAR in and enter the exact figures?

Dave

Talking about AX's

what cc's is the AX GT ?

1600 ?

>>Talking about AX's

>>what cc's is the AX GT ?

>>1600 ?


1400cc twin carb

>1400cc twin carb

oh...I'll have to try harder next time I meet one then :-)

    re.25
    
    Is the WHAT Car? information from a documented full test report ?
    If so, wht issue, or ? can I have a copy ??? (Sorry Mr. copyright)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tim

re.30 AX DTR

I guess one would say a short comparision of what is available in this market
from small shopper to large executive barge. 

I will look it out tonight and enter more tomorrow.

The figure came from memory

    I believe many test reports are suspect. Personally, both my BX's
    didn't start to 'loosen up' until around 10,000 miles, so any
    performance figures on test cars I take with a pinch of salt.
    
    The AX catalogue says the 14 diesel has the following:
    HP (DIN)		53 hp @5000rpm
    Torque (DIN)	62.2 ft/lbs @2500RPM
    top speed		96.3 MPH
    0-60		13.2 secs
    urban		54.3 MPG
    cons 56		78.5 MPG
    cans 75		56.5 MPG
    
    Richard

    As promised and reprinted without permission from "Autocar & Motor" 5
    September 1990. 
    "Day of the Diesel?"
    
    Small Cars:
    AX 14TGD/DTR �7056 - 7826
    The Citroen AX diesel returns an amazing 78.5 - albeit an the rather
    academic 56 MPH fuel test - but none the less this makes it the most 
    economical car on sale. In practice the AX is a spendid little car,
    with brisk performance from the 53 BHP 1.4-litre. Once revs rise above
    tickover the engine smooths out and is fairly quite when crusing. In a
    mix of conditions, 50-60 MPG should'nt be hard to achieve.
    If the diesel price was more attractive, AX diesels would be like gold
    dust.
    Engine(cc): 1360
    BHP/RPM: 53/5000
    Torque/RPM: 62/2500
    MPG(test):54.7
    MPG(city/56/75): 54.3/78.5/56.5
    0-60:(secs):16.2 
    
    Best feature: Outstanding economy.
    
    Other cars tested.
    
    Pug 309 GRDT Turbo
    Nova 1.5TD Turbo
    BX 17TGD/TZD Turbo
    Tipo 1.9TDS
    Montego DLX/DSLX
    Golf Umwelt
    Citroen XM Turbo D/DS/SED
    MB 300D
    Land Rover Discovery TDi
    
    All have about the same amount written as included for the AX. Go get a
    test drive and see what YOU think! Mail me if any one wants a reprint
    of the article.
    
    Dave

RE: sub-1400 diesels...

We have the new style Fiat Uno TD. Engine is 1367 turbo diesel with intercooler.
It goes very nicely, thank you (similar performance to the Uno 70 SX i.e. 
petrol version) and is very economical. It is MUCH faster than the Uno D or DS,
which has a 1700 cc non-turbo engine.

The equipment level is pretty good on the standard car (in France, anyway): 
electric windows, lots of gauges, 5 speed, front and rear fog lights, central 
locking etc.

Is this car available in the UK?

Ceri

>
>Is this car available in the UK?
>
>Ceri


I have just looked in WHAT CAR and guess what? 

The answer is no.

This sounds a good contender to the Citroen AX Diesel.

re: Uno TD not available in UK

That's very interesting, as the TD and D/DS are VERY different beasts. The TD 
is fast and has a good trim level, the D/DS is slow and base-modelish.

I'd love to know what Fiat had to say (I suspect I know the answer - price).

If anybody's interested in further info, I'd be happy to respond.

Ceri

    Hi All,
    If you want to save fuel costs AND your neighbours can put up
     with the noise in the mornings go for the Citroen BX19. I have been
    driving a TGD for 2 months now and I have really grown to like it.
    It's the base diesel but it has electric sunroof,electric front
    windows,power steering.But what you get above all are two things
    besides the fuel economy.
    1. Those brakes ! no matter how hard you hit the brake pedal the nose
    of the car does not dive into the floor the whole car stays level.
    2.You get that wonderfull Citroen suspension that really does work.
    if you like to arrive in comfort then it must be a BX for the ride
    quality.
    If you want to go really fast then either get a 16v BX or don't bother
    at all and stick to Golf GTI's and so on.
    
    I think a BX is like a Beetle, you either loathed it cos it was noisy,
    ugly etc OR you thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    For me, the mistake was not getting one ages ago.
    
    Regards       Ron

    Ron,
    
    My BX GTi was the best thing since sliced bread, except for its faults.
    The most significant of these was that I could not get my head in.
    
    Steve

    My GTi allows all 6' 2" of me to sit in comfort - but only with the
    panel under the sunroof open, thus giving more headroom than a solid
    roof. However, one of the reasons for my last two cars was the sunroof
    and lots of light - therefore I never want the panel closed.
    
    I've heard the same comments elsewhere on the GTi but don't see the
    problem.
    
    Quasimodo Glanville

>    My GTi ...

Rover 216?, Peugeot 205? Peugeot 309? VW Golf? Citroen BX?





Ian

    Sorry, 
    
    My reply .40 was in answer to the .39 which are both talking
    about the Citro�n BX19 GTi.