Conference terri::cars_uk

	Just for information. Our local paper carried this article.

	Peugot 309 GTRD.

	1769cc diesel turbo.
	78 bhp @ 4,300 rpm.
	Max torque 16.0 mkg @ 2,100 rpm.

	Max speed 108 mph, 0-62 in 13 secs.

	57.6 mpg @ 56 mph
	40.9 mpg @ 75 mph
	40.4 mpg @ urban cycle.

	Power assisted steering, rear hatch now opens down to bumper level,
	new levels of trim, new dashboard, new front end grill.

	Cost inc car tax @ VAT - 11,125 pounds.

    Wow, what happenned to all the power?. The BX with exactly the same
    engine in a slightly bigger body does 0-60 in 10 secs, and about 61mpg
    at 56!.
    
    Richard

    Is the BX more aerodynamic the the 309? The bx is .34, as far
    as I remember...
    
    Peter

    Re .17 
    
    I have followed the BX with a second hand Granada; I chopped it
    out after 6 months. I now have a car I can sit in, I can see all
    the road in daylight, and some of it in the dark (did I mention
    the headlamps with no beams?). I can reach all the controls without
    losing sight of the small portion of the road that was visible from
    the drivers seat, and the speakers can cope with the output from
    the stereo.
    
    Handles like a whale, tho.
    
    The lease on this one expires in June, so I will try again. I have
    learnt to be a lot more critical on the test drive next time.
    
    Steve

re .0 ..  what was your choice ?

I'am looking at cars in the BX 'range'.. IE

BX GTI 
Renault 21 (no idea what model yet)
Cavalier CDI ?

and just wondering if there's any input here on the above selection

(The 'default' choice would be the BX.. it looks good and has
all the extra bits (electic this 'n' that) that i'd like
.. but would I be missing out on either the Renault or Cav?)





PS: The Peugeot 405 is out of the runing for other reasons

    The Cavalier is complete, has all the goodies, all the write-ups
    and is clearly the sensible option; but there are thousands of them
    about.
    
    The BX is a Citroen, and thus quirky, has all sorts of design defects;
    but a wonderful engine/chassis combination.
    
    Can't speak for the Renault.
    
    I have written elsewhere about my experience with a BX. I would
    have kept it and enjoyed it, warts and all, if only I could have
    got my head in it. As it was, I could only stand six months driving
    with my head bent sideways. So my advice is, if you are short, take
    the BX.
    
    Steve

    Re: .25 (re: .0)
    
    Renault 21 GTX Auto.  Delivery 10-14 days time, so they tell me, and
    with FREE alloy wheels :-).  Less than the new BX19Gti price, and
    little more than what I'm paying on the current lease.
    
    Jeff.

    This note has been quiet for a while! But given Citroen's current run
    down of options, it seems worhwhile re-awakening things.
    
    I have had two citroens both
    
    1.7 Diesel Turbos (DTR then TZD)
    ABS
    Air Conditioning
    
    in both cases at around 1300 pounds.
    
    Now Citroen have dropped A/C I am stuck, I still want Diesel (prefer as
    good as the 1.7 Turbo on the citroen), I must have A/C, I would really
    like ABS and wouldn't want to give up the Citroen suspension.
    
    I don't want to pay an arm and a leg!
    
    What can I do (other than jump off the top of the building). 
    
    Peugot have the same engine but I don't know their policy on A/C on
    those models, price seems higher as well.
    
    Any other suggestions (I've already tried Citroen, there seem to be no 
    more A/C models in the pipeline I can grab and the new model's are too 
    late!)
    
    regards
    
    worried of Welwyn
    

    Is A/C not an option on the ZX Turbo diesel ?
    
    I know that this does'nt have hydropneumatic suspension, but in all
    other areas it's  a citroen, and uses the same engine unit.
    
    I'm told it's quieter than the BX (which I also have).
    
    

    I have a ZX Volcane with air-con, and all I can say is: if my
    experience is anything to go by, don't get the air-con option on a ZX!
    
    It works admirably as a cooling aid, but when you use it, the moisture
    that is taken out of the atmosphere is deposited all over the passenger
    footwell, instead of (how I assume it should happen) through a pipe
    leading out of the bottom of the car. The amount of moisture that
    builds up in this way is sufficient to form a sizeable puddle, and in
    fact on one recent journey with a colleague during very humid weather,
    I had to stop on the hard shoulder of the M40 so that he could empty
    out the water that was sloshing round his feet!
    
    I've taken the car back to the dealer (two different ones) on at least
    three occasions, but still the problem persists; next time, I shall get
    tough and tell Fleet that if it's not fixed, I shall hand them back the
    keys till it is -- no-one minds a few drops of water, but I draw the
    line when passengers have to start paddling...
    
    The first time I took the car back, the Citroen dealer said that mine
    must be the only ZX in the UK with air-con: they hadn't seen one! They
    said that the unit was installed fine, except that someone had omitted
    to provide a pipe to drain the air-conditioned moisture away. They put
    a call in to Citroen UK, who didn't have an answer -- apparently, even
    they didn't know where the drain pipe should go on a ZX, although they
    could provide an answer for the XM (fat lot of use that is...).
    
    So, unless Citroen can prove they have their act together on this, I
    would say: don't go to Citroen if you want air-con on a small car (by
    the way, I'd still be interested if air-con is an official option on
    the ZX turbo diesel, if anyone knows).
    
    Why not try Peugeot? They now do air-con on the 405 GRD turbo, as an
    option, and it's standard on the GTD turbo. Alternatively, perhaps SEAT
    do air-con on the new Toledo turbo diesel (I'd be interested to find
    the answer to that one, as well); I know it's an option on the
    higher-spec. Toledos. I also believe Rover's latest range allows
    air-con on the 400-series diesels, although not on the 200s: perhaps
    someone can confirm? Also, is it available on the 309 GRDT?: I notice
    that you can now get in on a 205 GTi, according to the preferred car
    list...
    
    I think Toyota offer air-con as an option on all Carinas. The new
    Carina E looks quite nice, and there's also a diesel version, although
    it's a bit slow and lacking in character.
    
    
    
    Stephen
                                             

    
>>>    Why not try Peugeot? They now do air-con on the 405 GRD turbo, as an
>>>    option, and it's standard on the GTD turbo.

Not according to the Preferred car list.  It's shown as an extra-price option.
Maybe Hertz/PHH get a special cheap version....


Ian                                             

    As I understand it (via Autocar...), the 405GTDT and Mi16 (and the
    GTX?) all have air-con as standard now, but I must admit I haven't been
    to a Pug dealer to check....
    
    
    
    Cheers,
    Stephen

as with any fast moving market place, anything you write down is obsolete
immediately.

e.g Citroen no longer do air con on any of their BX's, and the BX 19 TZS
hatch is no longer on the price lists...

Peter

    Confirmation from Pug dealer......
    
    405GRDt has A/C as an option
    405GTDt has A/C as standard.

    Re: .34

    Yes..but what prices :-(

    405 GRDt	�14060
    405 GTDt	�16545

    Add approximately another �1,000 for the estate and say �400 for on the
    road costs. Thats �18,000 for the top of the range estate! 
    
    Anybody know what discounts are being offered on the Pug? Is 15 - 16%
    likely?
    
    Dave

    Dave, there's not much difference between the GRDt and all the goodies
    added on off the price list and the GTDt with all the goodies as
    standard. GRDt+a/c+ABS+alloys is as near as dammit the price ofthe
    GTDt. The only options that you can't get as factory fit on the GRDt
    are alloys (dealer fit) and headlamp wash.  
    
    I had pretty much decided that I was going to go for the Pug over the
    BX on the grounds that the Pug was slightly heavier and less likely to
    be upset at the thought of towing the 'van.
    
    I think the Pug is about the best value on the market in terms of mid
    range estates. JMHO.

    The Peugot seems to be my only alternative (a/c on the ZX Diesel Turbo
    isn't an option  - according to Citroen).
    
    I have not given up on the Citroen yet and am seeing if I can persuade
    Car Fleet, Personel (who set the policy that you can't I think) and 
    Hertz that fitting after market A/C is acceptable (and that the price 
    will be). I will report on my success or failure.
    
    However the difference between the Pug and Citroen and cost is
    horrendous - but I do like the engine
    
    DaveB
    
    p.s. Dick, I'm sorry to see you go - seems to affect many of those who
    escaped Newmarket (and quite a few who didn't)
    

from another note in here, it's seems the a/c on the ZX is a dealer fit
option, and seems to live in the glove box - is this true?

Peter.

    I've got the ZX with a/c (see previous notes...), and yes the a/c lives
    in the glove box.
    
    I also believe the a/c was a factory fit -- no dealer in this country
    seems to know how to rectify a problem with the fit, so I also assume
    they don't know how to fit it in the first place!
    
    
    
    Rgds,
    Stephen

    I believe that all A/C for the ZX and BX is fitted in the UK, from
    factory parts. The dealer can choose to order a car with A/C from the
    factory or get it fitted locally (resulting in quicker delivery, but
    higher cost). It is not actually fitted by the dealer - there is some
    place in Leatherhead which can fit it. I believe the RH drive ZX does
    lose the glovebox, although the LH drive doesn't.
    
    Whether the factory parts are still available for BXs is another
    question.
    
    Andrew

My BX delivered two years ago was factory fitted - in the glovebox was
a copy of the "Works manufacture order" (or some such) where "aclimitaseur"
was one of the things to fit. (or something like that....)

Peter.

    Re a good few back.
    
    	The XUD Turbo diesel engine fitted to the Pug 309 give a much lower
    power out because, I think, it doesn't have the Inter-Cooler, hence it
    cannot be turbo charged to the same extent.  The same engine is also
    now fitted to one of the Rover range, the 4XX I believe.  This one has
    a smaller Inter-Cooler than the BX installation, hence again delivers
    somewhat less power than the BX.
    
    	Re Airconditioning:  I am on my 3rd BX diesel - 19DTR, DTR Turbo
    and currently TZD Turbo, all hatches.  The current one has
    Airconditioning and very useful too, but it did struggle with 43
    degrees C in Madrid last June twelvemonth ('91).  Haven't had any
    troubles with the Factory fitted installation.  Very useful in humid
    conditions.  Thank goodness that the Xantia will be out by the time my
    lease expires and, hopefully, I'll be allowed Airconditioning in that. 
    I've found it to be too useful to be without it - and no wet passenger
    feet either Stephen!
    
    				Malcolm.
    
    PS. Yes, I'll go for a fourth one Jeff - if you're still with us.