Conference terri::cars_uk

Some months later, a similar problem returns!

Pre ignition, car shudders when accelerating, idles too quickly, etc

I changed back to leaded petrol and the problems diminished.

There was a letter posted in this months CSMA magazine from somone who
has the same problem as me. In a recent newspaper article (I have it at
home) the AA and RAC are both quoted as saying there has been a large
number of cars breaking down which have been converted to unleaded and
which the manufacturers said could be converted. These problems are now
showing, after people have been running on unleaded for a year or so
(mine was converted last January). I think this is just the tip of the
iceberg - my engine was probably designed back in 78 or so before anyone
had even heard of unleaded. How on earth could it be designed then to 
take the effects of unleaded into consideration ?

Unleaded looks like it may be just as bad for pre 85 Vauxhalls as the
Formula Shell turned out to be. I would be interested on hearing from
anyone else who has a pre 85 Vauxhall and who has been running on 
unleaded for some time to see if they've had similar problems.

Craig

The reports you refer to mostly (if not all) involve vehicles that were
improperly converted. 

You would be better off using Super Unleaded than 4*.  It is actually 
higher octane than 4*, and it is cheaper (as well as having no lead).

The only vehicles that ever need 4* are those that do not have suitably 
hardened valve seats.  Some cars only need 1 tank in 4 of leaded fuel.

jb

    Even my VW Beetle runs on unleaded, with a tank of leaded every 4 tanks
    Although it does seem to run a little warmer on long runs with
    unleaded.
    
    Carl.
    

Here is the article (taken from the Express I think) which I would advise
anyone running on unleaded should read (and owners of pre 88 Vauxhalls and
Fords):

Scandal of the great unleaded fuel rip-off
	Writer: David Benson, Motoring editor

Tens of thousands of motorists face massive repair bills for engine damage 
caused by using unleaded petrol.

The environmentally-responsible motorists have been conned into converting
cars which cannot run on unleaded fuel [see end for list- Craig] The problem
has become so widespread that both the AA and the RAC are to conduct 
investigations.

Specialist engine repairers report that there has been a big increase in the
number of engines with damaged valves, pistons and cylinder heads which require
a major rebuild costing up to �1,000.

Some garages claim that they are carrying out 10 times the number of engine
rebuilds compared with a year ago before the unleaded bandwagon really got
under way.

The problems do not appear immediately the motorist switches to unleaded 
petrol.

But after the engine has been running without lead for about 5,000 miles 
the valve seats burn out and pistons are damaged.

Unscrupulous garages offer to adjust the timing of older cars for around �30
and claim that it can then run on unleaded petrol.

But after a few thousand miles, the engine begins to misfire, is difficult to
start and runs sluggishly.

A complete engine rebuild is necessary to correct the damage.

Cars at risk include Austin-Rover Metro, Montego and Maestro models build 
before 1989, and pre 1988 Vauxhalls and Fords.

The RAC is so concerned about the damage that they are to test 2,000 of their
own vehicles.

The AA is also to conduct a full investigation.

    
    Include all Minis pre-August 1989 in the at-risk list ! 

I am experiencing identical problems on my Cavalier to those described below
in a letter which appears in the January 90 edition of 'Motoring and leisure'
Page 5, the magazine of the Civil Service Motoring Association.

Reverting to leaded

Since my Vauxhall Cavalier was converted to run on lead free petrol by 
retarding the ignition, I have experienced a defect when in slow moving
traffic. The engine starts to race without any control being touched. It
eventually subsides but recurs when coming to a standstill after further
movement.

My dealer has checked the vehicle on two occasions but is unable to detect
any fault or simulate the effect during a test drive. The car also does not
start as well as it did before and also 'runs on' on many occasions after
the ignition is switched off, which the dealer says is not unusual.

I am seriously considering reverting to leaded and would be interested to
hear from readers with a similar problem.

A J Bridge
Diss, Norfolk


The CSMA address is:
Motoring and Leisure
CSMA
Britannia House
95 Queens Road
Brighton
BN1 3WY

If anyone would like to write in with details of a similar problem, or 
anyone who wishes to contact A J Bridge.

	Craig.

	Does anyone have any info if this risk is confined to Pre-88 
	Austin-Rover,Vauxhalls and Fords ? My girlfriend's started running
	her '84 Nissan Micra on unleaded as the dealer has said it was 'built'
	to run on either leaded/unleaded. It did'nt need any adjustment and
	it does run without pinking or whatever so they might be right.
	Can anyone confirm this ?

	Gordon

    
    Not needing adjustment and not pinking only proves (I think) that
    the octane rating of unleaded fuel is suitable for the car. It may
    be that lead is needed to lubricate the valve seats even so.
    
    Trouble is, if you can't believe the dealers who do you believe!
    
    Mark
    
    PS I run the Marcos on supergreen sometimes, but it does need lead
    some of the time.
    

    
    I don't think is necessarily the dealers at fault - when I enquired 
    about running our (old - 1986) Mastro efi on unleaded, I was told not
    to. The same with the Landy, but that requires the lead, not the high
    octane, in fact if I could find a supplier of 2* - I'd use it !
    
    Elaine 

    
    This trouble affects all cars.  Last October i was back in the UK
    for a quick service, and spent an hour or so talking to the mechanic,
    a very articulate exponent of the Toyota way of doing things.
    
    It would appear that one of the big problems is carbon build up inside
    the engine.  Using an endoscope ( i think), it was possible to see
    where it was attaching itself.  He recomended that i should have the
    engine cleaned out ( by taking it apart), which Toyota will do for
    free.  Apparently large numbers of all Toyota makes have been going
    in for this treatment.  ( How many other manufacturers have been
    this reponsible ?).
    
    Both he and his manager said that as cars were changing down to
    go up the hill in fron of the garage, that in the last few years
    the sounds of pinking were greatly increased.
    
    He also recomended adding REDEX to the petrol, this seems to cure
    the pinking, and also trying where possible to use super-unleaded.
    When using the REDEX, he also reommended doing a couple of hundred
    miles in 4th at high revs.  ( that probably explains why i had to
    fill up BEFORE Paris (from Calais), and why it only took ^%$#.
    
    Anyway, it appears that Toyota are far from happy at the situation
    ( they 'sound' bad, and it's costing them a fortune), so they have
    shipped tanker loads of the unleaded variety back to Japan to see
    what they can do about it.  
    
    I would have thought it may even be the case that the fuel companies pay
    some kind of compensation if the manufacturers can 'prove' that it's
    fuel that has deteriorated.
    
    The car is an 89 MR2, designed to use both leaded and unleaded without
    modification, but it was pinking at 3,000 when the right foot was
    depressed in a hurry.

    It seems to me that the fuel companies need to get their act together,
    otherwise second-hand car prices could vary depending on the fuel
    you ran it on.
            

 Vauxhall stated to me in a letter that their campaign to convert post 85
 vauxhalls to unleaded for free was because all these cars could run on
 unleaded quite safely. I was told my car was also ok (it's 83) to run on
 unleaded all the time (ie I didn't need leaded every 4th fill or whatever)

 Now the press tells us that only post 88 Vauxhalls are safe - did Vauxhall
 make a change and not tell anyone? Did they have any unleaded petrol around
 in 85 to test it's effects when designing these older engines? I think not.

	Craig.

	Yes it does all sound very worrying. Particularly when the
	manufacturers are stating one thing one minute and then are
	seemingly contradicted by other sources the next.

	It would be interesting to see the legal position regarding
	liability if indeed only post '88 Vauxhalls are suitable to
	run lead free and not post '85 as they stated IN WRITING.

	Gordon

Almost all Japanese origin cars will run OK on unleaded.  They have to do
so in Japan (catalytic converters are required equipment there) and they
designed all their engines to be OK.  So that they keep down the number of
variants in manufacturing all the engines are the same, whether or not the
vehicle will be exported. 

Slight pinking on heavy acceleration with unleaded fuel is probably OK.
Almost all cars I have driven in the US over the last 8 years clearly state
in the owner's handbook that this is normal. 

jb

> Slight pinking on heavy acceleration with unleaded fuel is probably OK.
> Almost all cars I have driven in the US over the last 8 years clearly state
> in the owner's handbook that this is normal. 
  
    Jeremy's correct - I drive a Japanese car here in the US that has
    the full catalytic converter package and hence, like all cars since
    the mid 70s sold in the US, will only run on unleaded fuel. My car,
    and all other (Japanese and US) cars I have driven here have pinked
    a little as times, most noticeably on hard acceleration with a load. The
    book says this is normal, as long as it goes away after a few seconds
    (though I know it doesn't sound too healthy!) 
        
    The US is Japan's biggest market, and, like Japan, has strict fuel
    emissions standards that require only unleaded fuel to be used.
    The biggest market tends to dictate how a car is built - so there
    are probably very few Japanese cars anywhere in the world that can't
    cope with unleaded fuel.
                                                         
    John

 slight pinking may be ok, but in my case the whole car shudders noticeably
 when accelerating in any gear at anything more than a very gentle acceleration!

	Craig

    re .30
    
    Try a higher octane fuel - the rule of thumb here in the US seems to 
    be jump up a grade (they are all unleaded) if pinking is persistant
    (assuming that it's not the fault of improper tuning, that is). 
    I have done this when (for example) I had four adults plus lots
    of luggage in my 2+2 seater car going up into the hills of New
    Hampshire (needing hard acceleration under load to get up mountains). 
    It pinked on regular (low-octane) fuel which it normally runs on, but 
    had no complaints when I ran it on midgrade fuel (a couple of octanes
    higher).
    
    Of course, my car being Japanese has a low-compression engine (running
    on the unleaded equivalent of 2-star), and European cars are mostly
    high-compression, needing a higher octane to start off with. Maybe
    an extra-high-octane fuel (e.g. Supergreen) would work. Or, as
    someone suggested, get the tuning rechecked.
    
    John
                              

    RE: Note about Nissan Micra.
    
    A fellow Noter had a problem with a Nissan Micra which was running on
    unleaded. After a while, it had "bent-valve" problems, and has been
    running on leaded since.
    
    It seems that Renault originally designed my car for unleaded, but then
    changed their mind at the last minute.
    
    Mark.

Maybe it wasn't unleaded petrol after all (phew!)

The Vauxhall dealer in Reading took a look at it this morning and cleaned up
the distributor contacts. They said the main problem was that I had the wrong
type of spark plugs and the plug leads were faulty.

Strang this, since the sparks plugs were only bought at Christmas after the
mechanic at home said the ones I'd put in in Nov were the wrong type ....
That's two wrong types! 

	Craig.