Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    Any idea why the left hand indicator doesn't wink but the right
    hand one does? Answers please to NOTE 616, CARS_UK.
    
    Mark

re .13

If the bulbs are on but not winking, then it's likely that one of the bulbs is 
blown.  If they're off, then check the fuse (OK I know its obvious but some 
cars may have a fuse per side).  As Derek says, loose connections are likely, 
particularly at the bulbs if the holders are prone to leaking water then 
corrosion will break the circuit.  The flasher depends on having the right 
current flowing to activate the flashing and uses that as a cheap blown bulb 
warning.

Good luck.

Mike.

    
    How about the obvious - the bulb? - (Does the right one do double
    time? - if so it probably is the bulb)

I would check the bulbs first.  As someone said before, the correct current is
necessary for the flashers to work correctly.  The other thing that it could be
(aside from a bad connection) is the flasher relay itself.  The flasher lights
(and the dashboard indicator) will come on, and stay on until the activator
lever gets shut off - if the relay is the problem.  The relay is usually located
near the fuse panel (in American cars, anyway).  A new relay is probably about 
�10.

Good luck finding the problem,
Al

    
    Thanks for the replies.
    
    No, I hadn't checked the bulbs (I know the back one comes on and
    stays on, but I couldn't swear the front one works, I'll check it).
    
    The relay appears ok, it only has two wires connected to it and
    clicks away quite happily when you indicate right, so I don't think
    that it can be faulty.
    
    I just hope it is something simple. It's going to be hell tracking
    an electrical fault through the Marcos' maze of wiring!
    
    Mark

Having the relay only work on one side, is the symptom that I've encountered
when my indicator relay has gone bad.  It has only happened to me twice in 8
years (on two different cars), so I don't know if that is a universal symptom.
I would try to replace it (if you KNOW you can return it) if all your bulbs
check out.

    Usual circuit:
    			+
    			|
    			X (fuse)
    			|
    		      +-+-+
    		      |   | (relay)
    		      +-+-+
    			|
    			o
    			|  (switch)
    		       o o
    		       | |
    	left    +-+----+ +---+-+ right 
    	lights	| |          | | lights
                0 0          0 0
    		| |          | |
    body--------+-+----------+-+----------
    
    So relay and fuse usually in circuit, switch first unique point,
    subsequent wires and bulbs also unique.
    
    Start at bulbs, work backwards!.
    
    Richard.

    Thanks for all the help.
    
    Armed with a torch I went into my garage. First step was to check
    the bulb which wasn't working, but it looked ok, so I opened up
    the bonnet and examined the wiring.
    
    I had a problem with a dull heaedlight until last weekend which
    was cured by rejoining a broken wire. Near it I found another loose
    wire, so I connected that to the one I rejoined at the weekend and
    , heh presto!, flashing indicators all round!
    
    I also had a rear light and the number plate/boot light out and
    these were also both due to loose connections. It seems that the
    car is a little prone to these problems which isn't that suprising
    considering how hard it rides.
    
    Anyway, thanks again. Now to fix the passenger door mechanism in
    time for next Tuesday's CARS_UK meet!.
    
    Mark
    

Not exactly an electrical -problem-, but...

What's the best type of HT lead?

I was brought up to believe that copper is best, but have just been 
surprised that the first two shops I've tried don't sell it. Only the 
pre-suppressed flexy stuff.  

One kind called "Hotwires Silicon" is absolutely infinitely wonderful in
every respect according to the blurb.  I wonder.  Maybe good old copper +
suppressed plug caps performs better? 

Needless to say the lads in the 2 shops were very helpful: "Oh, this
stuff's much better than copper...   ...conducts better...   ...copper
breaks down when you bend it..." - "But I'm not going to bend it" -  
"..Yerr, well..." 

    Perhaps engine vibration could cause the copper in the leads to
    fracture.

    I must admit that I haven't seen any copper leads on sale for a
    good few years now. All you seem to get are ready made carbon
    filled leads.

    The last time I tried to use copper leads was on an Escort. It
    didn't work at all well. Infact the only leads which did work
    well were the genuine Ford ones. No idea why ...

 Mark

I've used Hotwires in the past, and they work fine.

Scott

    The silicone leads are very good, if a little bit more expensive than
    copper, I have turned to silicone, as they seem to be better in the
    wet, ie, less susceptable to shorting against bodywork etc, and seem to
    last longer.
    
    If you want copper, you can get  kits which you cut the lengths
    yourself to the desired size, and then screw on the ends yourself.
    The last time I looked these came in either copper or alu.
    

    
    Can anyone help me with this query.
    
    I have just bought some air horns for the Marcos (No, not the type which
    play tunes!) and the instructions say I should use a relay and plumb in
    a load of extra wiring.
    
    However, the compressor and horns work fine just by connecting the two
    wires fitted to the existing horn to the compressor, so what (if any)
    advantages do I get by fitting the relay and its attendant extra
    wiring?
    
    Mark

    The compressor obviousely will consume more current, than the normal
    horn.  The contacts inside the car at the steering wheel have limited 
    capability for switching high currents.
    
    It will work for a while, but the contacts on the steering column
    will actually burn within a short period.
    Use the relay and don't forget an extra fuse! relays are made to 
    switch the higher currents, where the small dashboard switches 
    have been designed for.
    
    
    Cheers.
    
    Hans_who_had_one_to_many_burned_wires_in_the_wiringloom
                  

    
    Thanks Hans,
    
    The ammeter certainly sways a lot when you hit the horn button and I
    did wonder if this might be the problem. I'll use the relay as
    suggested.
    
    Mark

    Re .27
      I'm no electronics expert, but I think that your compressor will be
    drawing a greater current than the average 'dashboard switch' is
    designed to cope with. The idea is that the relay switches the
    high-current circuit, allowing the standard wiring and switch to merely
    actuate the relay, protecting the original components from
    failure/damage/meltdown.
    

    Stone the crows, talk about notes collisions!  6 replies before I got a
    lookin!!
    
    Was just to going to that my car (an '69 MG B) lasted about nine months
    before the horn switch contacts burned out.
    
    Ian.

Hi,

With such a mindful of knowledge out there, and my mechanical/electrical
know-how being non-existent, I wondered if anyone could identify a 
problem I have with my Escort.....

When driving along the battery light comes on every so often, and the engine
seems to run very fast.  It also emits a high pitched whine.  At night when 
using the lights, they brighten (including the dashboard light) for a short 
while until the engine slows again and goes back to normal.  I thought it may
be the alternator, but I don't want to take it apart if it's unecessary.

Could anyone please give me some clues as to what this could be???????

Thanks.....Emma 

 It is more likely to be the voltage regulator, although on fords this tends to
be attached to the back of the alternator.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

Emma,

Are you saying that when the ignition light comes on, the engine speeds up of
its own accord?

If so, I'd suggest the fan belt is slipping severely.  The engine speeds up as
it no longer has to drive the alternator.  The whine is the pulley slipping on
the belt.

Does the car "squeal" on hard acceleration?  This is usually the main symptom
of a slipping belt...

It could be that the belt is covered in oil!

Scott

 Scott, why would the lights brighten while it is slipping ??? 

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

If the voltage regulator is shot, it may request of the alternator to start 
producing more volts than it usually does.  This will put a strain on the
alternator belt (the squeal) and send more power through the system causing 
the lights to brighten.

Dave

If the car's battery is less than 100%, the car's lights will be slightly dimmer
than "usual" (lower battery voltage, higher internal resistance, etc).  At
higher revs, the alternator will be putting out the "correct" voltage so the
lights will become brighter.

My metro does it if anyone wants a demo!

But back to Emma's problem, I think it probably is the voltage regulator as
other people have suggested, viz:

Dodgey alternator electrics soaking up battery power -> lights dim.
Alternator periodically "switches off" (due to above-mentioned dodgey
electrics) -> All battery power goes to lights and they get brighter
           -> Charge light comes on
           -> No Lenz-Law effect in alternator, so less resistance to turning,
              so engine speeds up.

If you've got a Lucas alternator, you'll have to renew the whole thing as the
electrics are inside and I don't think they supply spare bits.
If you've got a Femsa or Bosch one, the electrics (ie complex diode bridge that
regulates the voltage) are separate and you may be able to replace just this.

But thats probably totally wrong...

Scott

    Then check the fan belt first - because this is quick, easy and costs
    you nothing. Then you can start looking at voltage regulator/alternator
    which probably means a garage because you dont have the kit to do the
    job

Well thanks to all of you for those replies - it's certainly given me a lot
to go on.

First thing I'll do is check fan belt - then take a look at the alternator
type/voltage regulator.   At least I've got a Haynes manual!  :-)

Thanks again for those suggestions......

Emma

    Ypu can get regulators for Lucas alternators, carried by many car
    accessory shops as well as Lucas autocentres. Its a few years since I
    last got one, approx 1/3 price of an exchange alternator.
    
    Brian

    On my Heep, I have got a 17ACR alternator fitted.  This provides
    three terminals on the back, two of which are large spade connectors,
    the third of which takes a smaller spade-type connector.
    
    I have one lead from the first large spade to the battery connection
    (on the solenoid), plus one other from the small connector into the
    wiring loom (destined somewhere in the dashboard electrics).
    
    Two questions :
    
    1)  Does anyone know if the two large [adjacent] spade connectors
        serve the same purpose ?
    
    2)  Can anyone describe the way in which the charging system actually
    	works ?  In particular, the use of the 'sense' wire.
    
    
    This are the same connections that have always been on the Heep, but
    I have some other electrical problems and am not sure of the actual
    working of this part of the system.  Note that it does charge ok, so
    this setup is probably ok.  Also, the Lucas alternator has a built-in
    voltage regulator - and isn't normally fitted to Jeeps...
    
    J.R.

    The small lead probably goes straight to the warning light which comes on
    when the alternator is not generating enough current. This is
    controlled by the electronics inside the alternator.
    
    Andrew

    re -.2
    
    
    >1)  Does anyone know if the two large [adjacent] spade connectors
            serve the same purpose ?
         
    
    		YES, are normally always connected internally on the
    Rectifier unit within the alternator, so it doesn't matter which on you
    take the power from.
    
    >2)  Can anyone describe the way in which the charging system actually
            works ?  In particular, the use of the 'sense' wire.
        
    		First reply has got it in one. This lead supplies Voltage
    (+12) to the alternator, via the Ignition bulb. When the engine is not
    turning, current flows to the alternator and lights the bulb. When it
    gets into the alternator it goes to the Armature (SP?) (Via the voltage
    regulator) to create the magnetic field. When the alternator turns over, 
    AC current is generated in the windings, which is then Rectified to DC. At
    the same time the DC voltage also goes to the "Sense" wire , which causes 
    there to be no Voltage difference across the ignition bulb and the bulb 
    goes out. To stop the Output Voltage getting too high, a voltage regulator 
    limits the current flowing through the armature, which inturn reduces the
    magnetic field and hence the output current.
    	If the sense wire is disconnected or the bulb goes, the alternator
    will stop working. The alternator is Three Phase and at certain times
    in the cycle, it does not generate +12 volts and therefore cannot sustain
    the input voltage and hence stops generating. Usual output voltage of
    an alternator is about +14.5 Volts (When revved up, not idling).
    	I hope that is the answer you wanted and that you are not
    completely baffled by my inability to explain anything on paper without
    drawing it...
    
    	Chris. 

>>    		First reply has got it in one. This lead supplies Voltage
>>    (+12) to the alternator, via the Ignition bulb. When the engine is not
>>    turning, current flows to the alternator and lights the bulb.
    
    ...
    
>>    the same time the DC voltage also goes to the "Sense" wire , which causes 
>>    there to be no Voltage difference across the ignition bulb and the bulb 
>>    goes out. 
    
>>    	I hope that is the answer you wanted and that you are not
>>    completely baffled by my inability to explain anything on paper without
    
    Firstly, thanks a lot.  This explanation seems to make sense to me.
    
    I hope that you can answer any further questions I come up with, as
    there are certain to be more...
    
    If I get it right, the working of the dash lamp is that it has a +12
    supply to it, with the circuit continuing back to the alternator.
    With the alternator not turning, this is treated as a ground, so
    completing the circuit and lighting the bulb.  When the alternator
    turns and generates a charge, this goes both to the battery/supply
    circuit for the rest of the car, and to the wire which leads to the
    bulb.  In the case of the bulb, it will then have two +12 connections,
    no earth, therefore no current flow...  That correct ?
    
    OK, if that's the scene so far, add one complication in my case.
    
    	There is no bulb on the Jeep dash for this purpose !
    
    I do have a Haynes manual which includes a circuit diagram for the
    vehicle, but much of the Heep wiring is all frigged about, and I would
    like a better understanding of certain components before working on
    any of it.  Besides that, the diagram seems quite complex.
    
    Of the two alternator connections (not including engine ground), it
    shows one wire going to the battery/solenoid connection.  This then
    forms the supply for vehicle electrics, drawing from the alternator
    (when running) and/or the battery as needs dictate.
    
    The second wire is shown as being a 15.0 Ohm rating, going to the
    bulkhead connector, where it shares a connection with another lead in
    the engine bay which is indicated as having a 1.35 Ohm rating.  This
    supply goes to the coil and to a solenoid terminal.  On the other
    side of the bulkhead, this wire leads to the tachometer and then on
    to the ignition switch.
    
    I gather that the high (?) resistance of the 'sense' wire is an
    alternative to having a bulb in this part of the circuit.  I'm not
    sure about the resistance on the coil supply lead, is this for normal
    running, to allow the solenoid to supply full power when starting ?
    
    (this is not connected to either of the main battery terminals on
     the solenoid, but to an additional connection on the top, which
     I assume is also switched when starter switch is operated - I haven't
     checked this out yet, but it seems a safe bet, or does it not ?)
    
    J.R.
    
    PS Are they any reasonable books which explain vehicle electrics in
       terms that I could understand easily enough ?

    I think you have it about right. It is common to have a resistance wire
    running from the ignition switch to the coil. This gives you about 6V
    on the coil during normal running. The wire is shorted out when you
    turn the starter, to give more volts while starting (to compensate for
    the drop in battery volts when the starter motor is being used, and to
    ensure a healthy spark for the cold engine).
    
    Andrew

    Have recently got a car stereo which I have fitted myself but I have a
    lot noise which obviously needs suppresson. My question is whether I
    need to have the car tested to get the correct levels of suppression
    needed which involves a garage and a lot of cost OR can I get one of
    the general suppression kits from Halfords and it the alternator and
    plug suppressors myself..........any comments ??
    
    Bazza

    Try one of the cheap suppression kits from Halfords first before
    spending lots of money at a garage.   I've never had to use the kits
    myself they're worth a try!  Also check the wiring/routing of the stereo
    cable esp the speaker cable.
    
    ..Craig

    
    Talking of car radios.
    
    About 8 months ago I bought a new stereo FM radio for my runabout car.
    
    On cold mornings, or after not using the car for some time, the FM of
    the radio doesn't come on for about 15 minutes of driving ... the time
    it takes me to get to Digital Park ... usually just as I trun in the
    radio blasts out.
    
    However the AM always works fine, whatever!
    
    Could this be a bad earth somewhere on the ariel or could it be
    something else?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Steve
    

    re .49
    
    It could be that the radio is too cold. All semiconductors have a
    working temperature range. I think all should operate to spec in the
    range 0�C to 60 �C, but there may be a marginal component in the radio
    that doesn't quite work properly below 10�C. If this is the case then
    you should get the radio repaired or replaced under warranty. (Try
    warming the radio before starting the car - if you can get a hairdryer
    to blow on the case for a few minutes, but take care not too heat the
    front panel much).
    
    I think it is unlikely to be an aerial or power supply problem, but you
    should check all the connections anyway.
    
    Andrew

Try using shielded cable as well, I have found this to help.

Sean.