Conference terri::cars_uk

    This topic looks ripe for reactivation, now petrol is �2.25-�2.50 a
    gallon and we're being forced to have cats fitted to the car with there
    asociated fuel penalties.
    
    Brian

    Brian,
    
    	Taking a worse case of 2 pounds 50 pence a gallon -  to break even
    your car needs to do 31.25 miles/gallon. Most petrol cars
    driven sensibly do more than that (my diesel does 50+ miles/gallon).
    
    	8p/mile appears to be about right after all you are NOT intended to
    make a profit.
    
    Norm
     

    The allowance is also meant to cover additional oil  etc. The 214 with
    cat does around 36-38. Of course if I'd got the non-cat version I ordered
    it would have been better. 
    
    Clearly a number of people with other cars a loosing out every time
    they use the car on company business.
    
    Brian

    Oil, What's oil?. My car never uses the stuff, least not when I have
    it. Dunno what they do at services, but that's not down to me is it?.
    
    
    Richard

Oh god ...... Thats why my Rover could have started making a rattle noise o
startup ... better check the oil.... Can you claim for pay for oil with a 
Fleet card ?


KR

;-1 

Not its not that .... Comes half way up the dip stick ... well between the 
two holes in the dip stick anyway .


KR

You cannot pay for oil with a fleet card.

Presumably PHH or Hertz would pay for the repair of a seized engine though!

Mark.

    
    
    
    re -1
    
    
    Yes you can
    
    I have.
    
    
    
    Nick.

>Presumably PHH or Hertz would pay for the repair of a seized engine though!

I know of a case where the Digital Cost Centre picked up the charge because of
lack of coolant in the engine.

Dave.

I'm sure I was unable to (I think I rang up PHH) I was amazed, but I still went
to a Petrol station and payed for it personally. Synthetic oil isn't cheap
either!

Mark.

>
>I'm sure I was unable to (I think I rang up PHH) I was amazed, but I still went
>to a Petrol station and payed for it personally. Synthetic oil isn't cheap
>either!
>

why the expensive oil? are you going to buy the car when the lease is up? 

over the 60,000 miles I've done in my 3 years all I've wacked in is the
cheapest I can find. who cares about the car when PHH get it back 

tight? me? 

:-) :-) :-)  

	Paul~

    Re : Synthetic oil
    
    I assume you're talking about your 5GTT Mark. I don't think even
    Renault garages use sunthetic oil in services. Ralphs certainly don't.
    
    There are plenty of cheap 20w 50 oils around for �2.99 for 5 litres.
    
    Royston

Its a Clio now, and I assume it still requires synthetic. Maybe I'm naiive, but
I always assumed they used synthetic.

Mark.

    
    You don't think PHH would pay for synthetic do you ?
    
    I remember having this discussion in #256 when I was interested in
    5GTT's a couple of years ago. I recall phoning a Renault garage
    and asking them and there used standard oil in routine services.
    
    Things might have changed. Maybe someone could ring a garage and find
    out and post the info here. (Or a more appropiate note)
    
    Royston

 Its the ELF competition oil for the Clio. The garage used to bung in the Castrol
 equivalent but now its back to the Elf oil. 

 And I use my PHH card to pay for it outside service.

 Sean

    �And I use my PHH card to pay for it outside service.
    
    So you're saying that PHH _will_ pay for oil !
    
    This is a revelation.
    
    Royston

No hassles so far.

    
    Regarding start/stop city driving and loosing money on petrol doing
    company business I do not think you need be driving a high performance car
    to loose money, it depends a lot on how slow the traffic is. 
    
    I would be interested if anybody has "official" (from a recognised
    source) information available which outlines the costs of start/stop 
    driving e.g 5 mins stopped in traffic=1 litre petrol etc.
    
    
    Rgds,
    
    Go neiri an bothar leat... i.e literally  means "may the 
    road open up in front of you"...or in sentiment "happy easy driving to
    you"
    
    Padraic.
    

My GSi Astra has a fuel computer, on which one of the functions is "instant fuel
economy". When idling in traffic it reads 0.2 Gallons per hour, if the lights;
heater; stereo etc are also on it goes up to 0.3 Gal per hr.

Hope this gives you an idea...

Andy

    Looking at the cost of petrol on the new M40 services
    61.x for 4* per litre
    56.x for Unleaded
    
    The cost of petrol is going up, if these prices become more common the
    8p a mile won't be covering the cost.
    
    dave d

re.50:

Looks like they're taking advantage of the lack of services on the M2/M25/M40
route. These prices are not reflected by what I've seen and paid around the UK
recently.

Dave.

    
    Wouldn't this note be better retitled to "Still subsidising DEC"?
    
    Richard.

The Tesco's I went to the other day was 49.9p per litre for
unleaded.

    Looking at the cost of petrol on the new M40 services
    61.x for 4* per litre
    56.x for Unleaded
    
    The cost of petrol is going up, if these prices become more common the
    8p a mile won't be covering the cost.
    
    dave d



	That means, roughly, that if your car does less than 34/31 MPG
respectively, DIGITAL's 8.0p per mile doesn't even cover the cost of the
petrol!!!

				Malcolm.

The Tesco's I went to the other day was 49.9p per litre for
unleaded.


	Yes!  That upset me, 'cos I usually fill up at Tesco's these days - at
the new one at Warfield - and the price has gorn nup to 49.9p per Litre.  I was
not at all a happy chappy last evening, when I drove past ASDA on my way home,
to see that they are selling Diesel at 47.9!  Unleaded was the same.

				Malcolm ;-{

    My brother-in-law just got a job on a government 'cheap-labour' scheme,
    if he has to use his car for workhe gets 25p a mile. Makes 8p look a
    bit sad really.
    
    Al.

    If they gave him so many thousands a year car allowance as well, yes !

    Does anyone have the recentish mail which explained why we were still
    on 8p mile?
    
    could they forward it to greg hilton@lzo?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Greg, I can't help but your reply prompted me to read .0
    
    It made me laugh at the price of petrol back then. What was he
    complaining about.
    
    Royston

From:	RDGMTS::REO::RDGMTS::AM_WMSG::WORLDMESSAGE 13-FEB-1995 18:10:36.31
To:	@Distribution_List
CC:	
Subj:	Mileage rates

         To:	   All employees
         From:	   Shoaib Quraeshi, Country General Manager
         
         Subject:  Mileage rates
         
         _____________________________________________________________
         
         Following recent increases in the duty on fuel announced by 
         the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his autumn budget, the 
         Territory Management Team has reviewed the rates at which we 
         reimburse employees for mileage driven on company business.
         
         A breakdown of the factors included in the review is 
         attached.
         
         As a result of the review, we have decided that there will be 
         no change to the current rates of reimbursement.  
         
         Company mileage will continue to be reimbursed at 8p per mile 
         for car supplement holders.  For employees who do not receive 
         a car supplement and use their own car for company business, 
         the rate will remain at 32p per mile for the first 100 miles 
         per week and at 8p per mile thereafter (a maximum of 4,000 
         miles at 32p can be claimed in a single tax year).
         
         Regards,
         Shoaib

                     ELEMENTS COMPRISING THE MILEAGE RATE
                              13th February 1995
         
         _____________________________________________________________ 
         
         
         The elements
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~
         The same calculation formula has been used consistently for a 
         number of years.  It is based on the following elements:
         
         -  the cost of unleaded petrol at a given reference site 
            garage
         -  an average fuel consumption of 30 mpg
         -  0.5p per mile for oil consumption
         
         
         Threshold at which a change is considered
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         A change to the reimbursement rate is usually deemed 
         necessary when the cost per mile resulting from the above 
         calculation moves up or down by 5% or more.
         
         
         Price movement at this review
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         At this review the calculation showed that the cost per mile 
         had moved up by less than 1% as a result of the budget 
         increases in duty - not enough to trigger a potential change 
         to the reimbursement rate.
         
         This can be attributed to the fact that prior to the budget 
         there was a distinct downward trend in petrol prices.  
         
         
         Oil allowance
         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         At this review we decided that it is no longer appropriate to 
         include an oil allowance of 0.5p per mile in the calculation 
         as cars now use significantly less oil.   
         
         When this amount was deducted from the cost-per-mile figure, 
         the figure was below 8p per mile.  However, the downward 
         fluctuation was also less than our 5% change threshold, so no 
         reduction in the reimbursement figure was considered to be 
         necessary.
         
         

To Distribution List:

I'm amazed.  Looking at the base note, the allowance *6 years* ago was the same 
as it is now.  Either that shows that DEC were being reckless and deserved to 
end up in the financial strife they eventually found themselves in, or it shows 
that they are insulting their employees 6 years later by offering pathetic 
mileage rates.  I've never seen anything like it.

    
    	Qucik calculation: - without oil costs
    
    1989 - 190 per gallon - 30mpg....... cost 6.3p per mile
    
    1995 - 225 per gallon - 30 mpg.......cost 7.5p per mile

a)  Where does one get petrol for 225 per gallon?
b)  Add the oil costs

m.

    �a)  Where does one get petrol for 225 per gallon?
    
    Dunno, but 52.9 = �2.40/gall @30mpg = 8p a mile
    
    �b)  Add the oil costs
    
    Read the memo posted in .60 about the Oil Allowance. Its been dropped.
    
    Royston

I'd like to see a comparison between Digital's compensation and one of our 
copmpetitiors'.  I know it's not a direct comparison, but my housemate receives 
over 40p a mile for the first 500 miles, and 17p a mile after that, with the 
NRA.  This is to pay for all manner of maintenance that is required due to the 
additional mileage, and insurance.  Petrol is not the only consumable for which 
usage increases with mileage.

btw, it doesn;t really affect me, but I know that if I was stuck with that 
situation for a longer period than I am, then I'd soon start wondering if it's 
worth using the car.  Digital would have to pay a hell of a lot more out if 
everyone caught the train/taxis.  They should be encouraging us to use our 
cars, and not encouraging us to leave them in the drive. (IMO)

    I would suggest that your friend's rate applies to his own car rather
    than a company provided one (or car supplement) - which is what our 8p 
    applies to.
    
    Paul

It does apply to his own car.  I had been led to believe tha tthe same applied 
here.  For owners of their own cars, it's 32p a mile up to a limit, and 8p a 
mile after it.  If this isn't so, I've got some digging to do.

    The rules are for private car business mileage - 32p/mile for the 1st 100
    miles in any given week, 8p/mile thereafter.
    
    The theory being I guess is that if you are doing a lot of business
    mileage you should be elligable for a company car or if short term
    perhaps a hire car.                             
    
    Royston 

    Correct, any significant mileage should bdone in a hire car. This is
    how I used to ask one of my Office Sales People to do.
    
    Paul

re .68 and .69

Until Monday of this week, I was too young to drive a hire car, and therefore 
had to use my own car for any travelling.

m.

    Hiring a car for short term is all very well, but I've been working in
    DECpark this week (I'm based in London) and the difference in cost between 
    using my own car at 32p per mile for the first 100 miles and 8p per mile  
    for the remaining 400 miles (50 miles journey each way for 5 days) costs 
    about �80 cheaper than if I hired a car.

    Jane.

re.71:

If you are not entitled to a car supplement (or whatever they are called...)
then you should hire as the rates you are getting will not fully compensate you
for increased depreciation, extra insurance, extra servicing etc..

Dave.

    I think the point that Jane is making in .71 is that why doesn't the
    company give a better mileage rate as it is more expensive for the
    company to hire a car than to give a reasonable mileage allowance.
    
    Royston

    
    I can't resist replying to this.
    
    I am going to work for Sun in a few weeks time so here goes!
    
    The car allowance is at least 25% up on Digital's depending on level.
    In my case the allowance is nearly 7k.
    If you have a lease car you are issued with an allstar card and all
    your private mileage is paid as well.
    
    Running your own car, which i will, pays the princely sum of 19p/mile
    which in a Pug 205td makes me smile. :>)
    
    Are you happy with your Vauxhall?

    That 7K wouldn't be subject to tax would it? My 4K is worth 6,666 if
    the scheme came out of taxed income.
    
    Private petrol incurs more tax.
    
    19p per mile, to cover extra depreceation, service, tyres, replacement
    when damaged/broken, border line I'd think.
    
    I'm happy with my Vauxhall.
    
    Andrew

	re .last
    If you take the cash it's taxed, obviously!
    Maybe you are unaware that if you take the cash instead at Digital,
    currently K2.9 up to level 8, that leaves about k2.2 and more
    importantly, you can still only claim 8p/mile for business use.
    
    Not very good at arithmetic then?
    Glad you're happy!

    re .74,
    
    So what cars do Sun give then in a 7k price bracket? I think Andrew was
    saying that the Digital allowance, for a company car, before tax, is
    around 7k.
    
    Happy with my Vauxhall, happier NOT to be working for Sun ;^)
    
    Greg
    

    
    the Digital allowance before tax is nowhere near 7K!
    not even 5K.
    
    7K buys something around 22k worth of car!

>    the Digital allowance before tax is nowhere near 7K!
>    not even 5K.
    

Really depends on how you define "before tax" 

I get a 3560 supplement and spend it on a car before the tax man sees 
it. 

If I had to spend 3560 out of taxed income I'd need 
5933 pounds before tax to be equal (assuming 40 % tax rate) 
I could therefore argue that Digital's supplement to me is about 6K.  

Phil.

>I get a 3560 supplement and spend it on a car before the tax man sees 
>it. 

>If I had to spend 3560 out of taxed income I'd need 
>5933 pounds before tax to be equal (assuming 40 % tax rate) 
>I could therefore argue that Digital's supplement to me is about 6K.  

>Phil.

However, you DO get taxed very heavily on that �3560. If you take the cash,
standard tax applies. If you take the car and do less than 2500 business miles,
you pay far more tax than you would on �3560 cash. You may spend the �3560 on a
car before the tax man sees it, but unless you do >18K business miles, you pay
the same or more tax. Therefore, Digital's supplement to most people is <=
�3560, not 6k.


Matt

> However, you DO get taxed very heavily on that �3560. If you take the cash,
> standard tax applies. If you take the car and do less than 2500 business miles,
> you pay far more tax than you would on �3560 cash. You may spend the �3560 on a
> car before the tax man sees it, but unless you do >18K business miles, you pay
> the same or more tax. Therefore, Digital's supplement to most people is <=
> �3560, not 6k.


But in the example given (Sun's supplement of 7K) co. car tax would be paid 
by the driver as well, so it really depends on whether Sun employees can 
use their supplement before it gets taxed or not, as to whether or not it is a 
*substantially* better benefit than ours.

Also, by my reckoning, a car of less than 10171 list price attracts less of a
tax burden  than 3560 pounds of income even for a <2500 miles per year business
user.


Phil.

    
    This arguement started because of my note which attempted to point out
    the differences between the schemes so lets understand a couple of
    things here.
    The tax laws are the same for everybody!
    Digital 'allows' a value based on level, same as Sun.
    3560 appears to be the sum paid to level 7 and above? is that correct?
    Sun allows a value dependant on level as well!
    Sun's assignment of value is substantially more! difference between
    3560 and 7K
    
    Note 2290.85 
    BMW 320 SE with Air con is 6007 Q no is 8,007,978 
    So you would pay 2447, I would not!
    
    If I choose not to take the car I get paid 7K minus tax.
    Digital does not pay private mileage, Sun does if you have the company
    car.
    Sun pays 19p/mile buisness use (supplement paid)
    Digital pays 8p/mile
    
    I don't know how to make that any simpler. Does anyone still not
    understand how uncompetetive the Digital scheme is? Anybody want to buy
    a calculator?
    
    Lastly, because I'm bored with this, digital's scheme is still more
    than adequate. It isn't their fault that the government wants to screw
    everyone who gets a company perk but thats another conversation as they
    say! :>)
    bye bye now

    Hi,
    
    	I think Sun may be well above average whereas Digital is average.
    I'm off in 3 weeks, the car allowance is almost identical and is part
    of the package given before tax (same method as Digital), the cost of a 
    'standard choice' car on the scheme is the same, although I'll be
    happier because I can wave farewell to the worst car I've ever owned
    (Astra Diesel, list of problems/faults is long !) and say hello to a
    Rover 416SLI.
    
    	Euan 

A reply about my recent mail concerning the 8p per mile rate...

>Rupert,
>    
>    Your mail to Marion Flynn has been passed to me for reply.  
>    
>   The subject of mileage reimbursement is currently being reviewed 
>   by the TMT as is the question of oil.
>  
> A communication is expected shortly.
>    
> Regards
>Pat

Sounds more like the Vatican - we'll be seeing white smoke coming out of Dec park soon. 

Just looking at the base note date, it seems they probably change Pope's more often than the 
"pence per mile" !

Rupert

         <<< Note 594.84 by CHEFS::16.42.144.104::marchr "Mega Hero" >>>
                        -< As much as 8.5p perhaps???? >-

A reply about my recent mail concerning the 8p per mile rate...

>Rupert,
>    
>    Your mail to Marion Flynn has been passed to me for reply.  
>    
>   The subject of mileage reimbursement is currently being reviewed 
>   by the TMT as is the question of oil.
>  
> A communication is expected shortly.
>    
> Regards
>Pat

Sounds more like the Vatican - we'll be seeing white smoke coming out of Dec 
park soon. 

Just looking at the base note date, it seems they probably change Pope's more 
often than the 
"pence per mile" !

Rupert

Thanks Mr Creosote. I'm sure there is a way of changing
this "Teamlinks" interface - but I can't work it out!

Rupert

>Thanks Mr Creosote. I'm sure there is a way of changing
>this "Teamlinks" interface - but I can't work it out!

simple - use a VT340 emulator, and DCL's NOTES command.  :)

Chris.

I have a 2.2 Diesel and have been keeping figures since I got it. It 
actually costs me 6.02p per mile to run from diesel alone and thats 
fillling up at the cheapest tescos around (52.9). I get around 40mpg.

If I had to rely on motorway services, or cars which drank petrol at 
'normal rates', I'd not be too happy.

Alan

PS - Teamlinks - set the windows size and then go to the 'customize'# 
menu item and down to 'save window placement'.

Alan,

Thanks for the tip on Teamlinks.

Rupert

    So how will this new mileage rate of 8.3p per mile work out - will
    final claims be rounded up/down?
    
    Intrigued
    
    mikef  

    Just the same as fractions of miles.
    
    Andrew

    Can't say I've ever claimed a fraction of a mile...
    
    mikef

         To:	   All employees
         From:	   Alan Evans - HR Manager, UK & Ireland
         
         Subject:  Mileage rates
         
         _____________________________________________________________
         
         In recent weeks the Territory Management Team has reviewed 
         the rates at which we reimburse employees for mileage 
         travelled on company business.
         
         As a result of the review we have decided that:
         
         -   in future our reimbursement rate will be calculated to 
             the nearest tenth of a penny, rather than the nearest 
             whole penny;
         
         -   instead of using the cost of petrol at a nominated garage 
	     as the guide price in our calculation, we will use reference 
             figures supplied by the Institute of Petroleum;
         
         -   we will review the cost of petrol on a quarterly basis, 
             rather than every six months;
         
         -   we will continue to base our calculations on unleaded 
             petrol and average fuel consumption of 30 mpg;
         
         -   we will reimburse through expenses the cost of oil 
             required for lease cars between services, provided that 
             the claim is supported by a receipt and a hard copy of a 
             mail notifying Lease Plan that additional oil has been 
             required.
         
         The first review of the mileage reimbursement rate using 
         these new factors will take place at the end of this week, 
         when we receive the latest figures from the Institute of 
         Petroleum.  We will announce the result of the calculations 
         during the week beginning 16th June.  Any change to the 
         mileage rate will apply to any business miles travelled on or 
         after that date, up to the date of the next quarterly review.  
         
         We believe these measures will allow us to reflect the actual 
         cost of fuel more accurately and fairly in the reimbursement 
         rate.
         
         Regards,
         Alan