Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    	All Diesel fuel is completely free of lead, unlike "lead-free"
    petrol which still has minute traces of lead added because they still
    haven't found a way of eliminating "pinking" without any lead.
    
    	Diesel cars also produce less "greenhouse gases" - Carbon Dioxide,
    something like 30% less than the equivilent petrol engined car, due to
    their increased fuel efficiency.
    
    	Not only this, adding a Turbocharger to a Diesel engine doesn't
    have the huge fuel consumption penalty that it does when added to a
    petrol engined car.  It does have some small penalty (on the Diesel)
    like on my BX 1.9 litre straight Diesel did an overall of 44 MPG and my
    current BX 1.7 litre Turbo Diesel returns an overall of about 42 MPG. 
    I guess that comparing it to the BX 1.7 litre straight Diesel would be
    more valid though and I don't have any experience of that.  I can't see
    that the difference would be into a double figure percentage though.
    
    				Malcolm.

    Malcolm,
    
    I will be condisering a diesel as my next car because of the high
    annual mileage I do.
    
    The thing that puts me off though are 
    
    i) Lack of performance
    ii) Noisy
    iii) I've heard its messy to fill up and subject to freezing.
         I know a guy who has a BX diesel who was almost stranded last
         winter because the diesel pumps had frozen up and couldn't put any
         fuel in.
    iiii) I'd also be concerned that the fuel may freeze in the car during
          very low temperature.
    
    I'd like your comments
    
    Roy
    

    
    Well I'm not Malcolm and I don't own a diesel but,...
    
    i) Lack of performance - As Malcolm said some Turbo Diesels perform
    quite adequately.
    
    ii) Noisy - Probably only true at start up on modern diesel engines.
    
    iii) Messy - More often due to where many garages site the diesel pump.
         Find a garage where the diesel pump is with the petrol pumps and
         you should be ok. Freezing? Well I can happen, but how often is it 
         THAT cold in the UK?
    
    Does Unleaded REALLY have lead added? Wouldn't that knacker a catalytic 
    convertor? And FINALLY (Esther) a turbo does NOT have a dramatic effect 
    on fuel consumption on a petrol car anymore than on a diesel, it's just
    the kind of car turbos usually get fitted to. You can't compare a 1.4
    Renault 5 with a Turbo 5GTT!!!!
    
    Mark

Diesels still pour out oily exhaust which coats everything that gets too close, 
the exhaust is still full of chemicals which some of us react badly to, asthma 
etc.

    It is true that most diesel engines have better combustion than petrol
    engines and they produce less "greenhouse" CO components. This is due
    to the high compression ration used. Modern 16-valve high compression  
    petrol engines are becoming quite good too.
    

    
    One of the best cars I've ever had was a Pug 309 diesel.
    Once you were buzzing along you couldn't really tell the
    difference between that and a petrol engines car and 70
    or 80 mph was never a problem. I remember it was quite quick
    of the mark as well and saved me a fortune on running costs.
    
    I think that most top petrol garages have an additive in
    the diesel to reduce the risk of it freezing up in your tank.
    
    JN.

    	Earlier this week I swapped my Pug 205 1.6 GTi for a 
        205 Deisel Turbo. The performance of the deisel was
        quite staggering - a bit slower off the mark, but once
    	the turbo cut in it could really fly.
    
    	In addition, with the windows shut it was actually noticably
        quieter than the GTi.  A heavy car to drive, though.
    
    	Ian.

re .24;

I have been driving Citroen diesels for over 5 years now, and am very happy
with the choice. My next car will however probably be a petrol, as my mileage
has dropped considerably now, though.

The main reason for getting a diesel must be economy - they cost more (in some
cases �1500 more a diesel turbo) than the equivalent petrol engine, but use
much less fuel, which is often cheaper than petrol.


COx and NOx emissions are much lower than *any* petrol engine, and it has
always been lead free. as Jane said, some studies have shown that some
of the emissions may be "nasty", but a well mantained engine should be OK.
The main problem is dirt (i.e. soot) if the injectors aren't clean, or
you get incomplete combustion. Turbo's are much better in this respect.

1) performance - I have the BX TZD turbo, which does 0-60 in 10seconds, 
and top speed of 112mph. mid range acceleration is superb (133 lb ft).
It is certainly respectable.

2) Noisy - at startup, but on the move no worse than a petrol.

3) Messy - can be, but as was said if you use a car diesel pump, they are OK.
Many places now have supplies of plastic gloves to prevent any spillage on
the hands. During winter, the fuel companies blend a "winter diesel" that
doesn't "wax" so easily. I've never had any problems. It would have to get
**very** cold for it to freeze, what may happen is the fuel filter can get
clogged by wax crystals - make sure the car has a filter heater fitted.
Most do (Fiat didn't about three years ago, so check). I've never known
a garage have problems. Since the storage tanks are underground, they are
sheltered from the worst cold anyway.

4) If you took a car filled with UK spec diesel up to the hieghts of the French
Alps in February, you might have a concern, but otherwise....

I get 45 mpg from my car; the equivalent petrol would do no better than 35
at best.


So get the calculator out, balance the costs, and go for the cheapest option.

Peter.

� I get 45 mpg from my car; the equivalent petrol would do no better than 35
� at best.
    
    I don't know what kind of driving you do, but I always get more than 
    35 mpg out of my 16v Calibra and would've expected any modern family
    saloon to be better (except perhaps at high motorway cruising speeds).
    35 looks very low for a modern petrol engined saloon.
    
    Mark
    

    Re: .30
    
    Thanks Peter for your comments.
    
    With an annual mileage of 25000 miles, I would save about �25 to �30
    per month on fuel with a diesel getting 45 mpg as opposed to 35 mpg I
    get at the moment.
    
    I'll be checking out the ZX turbo diesel soon.
    
    Roy

I don't seem to do any "economical" motoring; it's either round town, or
at "good" motorway cruising speeds - I'm going on the published economy
figures, whch show the BX TZD Turbo to be at least 10+ mpg better than the
BX 19 petrol. I did get 60+ mpg a couple of times, but that was during running
in. 

For comparison, if I use my wifes Astra 1.3 for the same kind of driving,
I only get in the region of 30mpg or so. But I don't want to get into an
"apples and pears" comparison.

Peter.

Re: .30, .31

I'm getting approx 45mpg from my Nova at the moment that's petrol...and I fill 
up for approx �16

Not bad going for a 1.6 injection engine :-)

I get 36 mpg out of my Cavalier and it costs �32 to fill up !!! Dunno where 
it all goes.

Meanlwhile back on the subject...

You said "noisy on startup". How noisy ? Taxi noisy or just noticable ?

Re: a few back

Unleaded petrol *and* diesel fuel both contain very small quantities of
lead.  These are of natural origin and are *not* added.  Similarly, they
both contain traces of other elements such as uranium.  The quantities
involved are extremely small and certainly less than would have any
measurable effect on a catalytic element.  It is uneconomic to process the 
fuel to remove these contaminants.

Note that diesel exhaust contains known carcinogenic compounds (polycyclic 
hydrocarbons) and often contains significant amounts of soot.  These can 
both be much reduced by appropriate catalytic and filter processing of the
exhaust gases.  A diesel engine can in this way have lower emissions that a 
petrol engine.

jb

re .35;

Taxi noisy? yes if the taxi has a "modern" diesel engine, not if it has the
old Ford Sierra (nee Pueguot)....

Seriously, they are noticeably noisier than petrol engines at startup and
tickover - once on the move the noise becomes similar.

Mark, come and listen to mine and see what you think. Most diesel cars have
better sound insulation to keep the noise out of the cabin.

Peter.

I get 41 mpg from my Cavalier and it costs me about �29.40 to fill up.

Dave.

I get 26mpg from my Senator and it costs me an average of 37.00 to fill up!

Can anybody better that...?

This must be a challenge to Jaguar owners everywhere ;-)

_Richard

    [Not getting ratty here -- just making a comment...]
    
    It seems pointless to me to say that, "I get x mpg on this car", and
    for somebody else to say, "Oh well, I get x + 7 mpg with mine [same
    make of car], so you must be thrashing yours", without also including
    some indication of the type of driving you're doing, or the comparison
    parameters being used.
    
    Peter's comparison between two cars which HE is driving (presumably in
    roughly the same style?) seems much more meaningful to me...
    
    I'm sure that anyone could get 40 mpg out of a Cavalier if they're
    doing 90% motorway driving at <80 mph, because the Cavalier is
    relatively high-geared. But if you drive mostly in towns, or on short
    runs, then I doubt if you'd get anywhere near 40mpg.
    
    Also, this takes no account of the difference in the way people fill
    their tanks: brim to brim? �10 worth, guessing at the same position on
    the [inaccurate] fuel gauge? etc. etc.
    
    The only reasonably reliable test is for the same person to drive two
    different cars, over the same route, in approximately the same traffic
    conditions, in approximately the same way.
    
    Using this method of comparison, I got 34.5 mpg overall out of the
    Astra SRi I used to have, whereas I now get only 31.5 out of the ZX
    Volcane, which is a significant 10% difference for the same
    performance. Also, the Astra responded much more positively to
    'economical' driving, by giving well over 40 mpg on a few occasions on
    long runs. The ZX won't go over 35 under the same conditions. This
    seems to give a more reliable indication of the 'typical' mpg
    attainable from these two vehicles.
    
    
    Regds,
    Stephen

re.40:

OK, I get 40mpg out of my Cavalier driving about 60% open road and 40% in heavy
traffic conditions. 90% open road would give me about 45mpg.

Dave.

    
    Well since we're in the mood for MPG/Condition comparisons.
    
    I get 37ish MPG from my Calibra in 75% congested A-road, 10% stop start
    and 15% M-Way cruising during a typical week.
    
    I didn't bother monitoring my MPG to Austria last winter - I didn't
    like to think about the MPG figures that go with consistent 120 MPH
    cruising!
    
    Mark

    I just had to join in. 

    Ford Serria Sapphire 2.0GLSi 28 miles all on B roads (Yateley to
    Newbury) whilst in the permanent employ of Digital.  
    Never better than 25MPG! Cost me >�100/month to get work.

    Now going to Enterprise House 40 miles by BR cost >�200/month. Still
    cheaper than taking a car petrol+parking.

    Dave

    For the record I own 2 diesels:
    
    	Peugeot 405 GRDT	50+/gall
    	Peugeot 205 XLD		60/gall
    
    	Fuel consumption is a mixture of stop/start and cruise.
    
    Nuff said,
    
    Norm

For those interested in diesel engined vehicles there's a very good piece in
today's (11 August) Independent.

jb