Conference terri::cars_uk

    This note seemed as good a place as any.  What does the panel think
    of whether to go through your insurance company for a small accident
    claim?  What do you do if the person who hit you doesn't want to,
    because of his/her no-claim bonus?
    
    Ian.

    This depends mostly upon the cost involved, which you describe as a
    'small accident claim'.  To be fair, I think you should allow the
    other person (assuming it is they that are 'at fault') to pay for
    the damage without using their insurance.
    
    To avoid putting yourself at risk, I suggest you ask for copies of
    their insurance documents as well as a letter accepting the blame.
    Then you should have some assurance that they will pay up.
    
    Of course, if you do not trust this person, DONT DO IT !
    
    If it is not going to inconvenience you, then what's the harm in
    looking at it from their point of view ?
    If you are inconvenienced - that is a different matter, but you may
    find this other person will pay up sooner than an insurance company.
    
    J.R.
    
    note - I think insurance companies request you not to do this.

Most insurance policies require you to report any accident in which you are
involved to the insurer.  If you do not your insurance is invalid (assuming
that the insurance company find out, of course).

Someone reversed into my mum once.  The only damage was that the tow ball on
his car snapped her number plate.  He paid her a tenner for a new plate, no
more was said, and I think in this case that was a sensible course of action.
If the damage in your case is much more severe than that, I'd go through
the insurance.  Definitely go through the insurance if you need to have the
car repaired at a garage and he/she won't pay for the repairs in advance.
(Otherwise you could find yourself footing the garage bill, and at that stage
the insurers probably won't be interested...)

Scott

.5�    This depends mostly upon the cost involved, which you describe as a
.5�    'small accident claim'.  To be fair, I think you should allow the
.5�    other person (assuming it is they that are 'at fault') to pay for
.5�    the damage without using their insurance.

    I thought much the same myself.  I believe you can send an insurance
    company a form for the purpose of notification only, so I will consider
    that.
    
    The circumstances were that I was going up the left hand lane of
    a motorway sliproad.  There was slow moving traffic coming to a
    stop in the right hand lane.  The only car ahead of me in the left
    lane decided to move into the right lane.  Then, just as I drew
    level with him, he changed his mind and moved back into my lane.
    
    The cars colided nose to nose, and the damage to my car is a very
    slightly kinked wing, and very slightly scraped paintwork.  I am
    going to get a couple of estimates and then see what the other chap
    wants to do.  The estimates will also give me a better idea of what
    I want to do.
    
.5�    To avoid putting yourself at risk, I suggest you ask for copies of
.5�    their insurance documents as well as a letter accepting the blame.
.5�    Then you should have some assurance that they will pay up.

    I'll try.
    
    
    Ian.

On the accident report form for the Insurance Service (Royal Insurance) they
have a box to tick to say that this is not a claim just informational. They get
very upset if you don't tell them about accidents, it might affect the amount
for money they can extort from you. They have a nasty way of telling you if
they find out... your insurance is invalidated! Instant illegality.

	Ian (who's friend found out the hard way!)

    First quote is for about �130.  When I get the second I'll take
    it along to the chappie and see if he wants to play.  If not, the
    insurance form will be going in without a tick in the 'information
    only' box.
    
    
    Ian.
    
    

	Someone ran into the back of my car a couple of years ago - 
	we proceeded with it as an "uninsured loss" but notified our
	insurers of the accident for "information only".  We did get
	the money from the other guy's insurers and then thought nothing
	more about it.....until our renewal notice came in showing
	no no-claims bonus !!!

	Our insurers said that they wouldn't quote the "no-claims"
	bonus because they still had information on the accident as 
	"current" - so we had to send them a copy of the payment
	that we had recieved and a letter stating that there was 
	no futher action being taken with regard to the incident.

	They did eventually give us the no-claims bonus back but
	by then it was too late to use the renewal notice as proof of
	no-claims bonus....so we were stuck with the same expensive
	insurance company for another year !!


Alison

    We too had someone run into the back of us and rather than loose his
    no-claims prefered to pay our repairs himself.
    We notified our insurance company (through the brokers) of the accident
    but passed all details of the 'other party' to them. Our insurance 
    company then proceeded to re-claim our repair costs from the other
    person, without involving his insurance company.  
    (We know this to be the case as the chap involved lived round the
    corner from us)
    Because we were not to blame, and all monies were re-claimed our
    bonus was unaffected.  However our policy does say that only if 
    the blame cannot be attributed to us, and all monies claimed are paid,
    then our bonus will be safe.
    
    

    I'm waiting to see what the other chap will do with the two quotes
    (�130 and �150), and whether he wants to pay.
    
    A friend here, whose sister works in an insurance broker, tells
    me that a broker might advise you not to notify the insurance company
    at all.  Insurance seems to be a real pain for small things like
    this.
    
    Ian.

    Re: .-1
    � broker might advise you not to notify the insurance company
    
    The problem comes if the third party who agrees to settle himself
    decides he can't or won't pay after all and then turns to his insurance
    company who then contacts you. Your insurance may not want to play
    ball because you did not inform them. This  has happened to me in
    the past and I ended up paying for court costs. After this I have
    filled in a claims form "for info only" when I had a minor bump,
    and my NCB was not affected.
    
    I understand that the insurance companies always want to be informed
    of any accident however small, if they are not it may invalidate
    the cover.
                               
    - Roy

    Panic off chaps.  I phoned up my insurance company to ask them about
    it today, and they think that the other chap is fairly obviously
    liable.  So, it's going through the insurance company after all.
    
    
    Ian.

    .14�        <<< Note 142.14 by AYOV27::ISMITH "Careless lives cost talk" >>>
    .14�                                  -< It's ok >-
    
    I got my excess cheque through last week, in full settlement of the
    claim.
    
    
    Ian.

	I was rear-ended, work is being done next week.


	I have a form which says I have to pay 20% of the cost of a new exhaust


	Is this normal/reasonable, and can I claim it back on un-insured losses?

	The exhaust is about 6 months old.

	
	Thanks,
	Heather

if you would expect an exhaust to last 2 1/2 years and it is 6 months old, 
then they are within their rights.

However, you may expect your exhaust to last longer. If, for example, it had 
a 10 year guarantee then they wouldn't get more that 5% out of me.

Having said that, they're playing by the nitty gritty of the rules, rather 
than the spirit, and it might be worth arguing briefly.

>if you would expect an exhaust to last 2 1/2 years and it is 6 months old, 
>then they are within their rights.

	But I expect to sell it in a year, before replacing it again, and
	I bet you the dealer won't give me my 20% back because the exhaust
	will last for 1.5 years and not 1 year.

	Dear mr dealer, what differnce in trade-in will you give me on a
	car with 1 year left on it's exhaust, or 1.5 years left on its
	exhaust?

	Answer - nothing!

	This is money I will loose because of the accident, that I would
	not have lost otherwise.

	Heather

In fact, if you were buying a second hand car, then you would be quite likely 
to see "recent new exhaust" as a selling point.

I understand what you're saying, and like I said, it may be worth the row, or 
at least sounding them out.

What you could try is saying that you had a 6 month old exhaust on there, and 
that's what you want back. You don't want a new one which is going to cost 
you �x. Explain that you not only don't want one, you cannot afford one, so 
what are they going to do about it. This may work, the only difficulty is 
that they may say "fine, we can find one, here's �y go and buy a 6m old 
exhaust yourself". By law, they only have to re-imburse you for financial 
loss. (Pain and suffering is slightly different). There is no payout for 
inconvenience.

But, at the end of the day, they are behaving as they are supposed to. 
"Supposed to" here is defined in law.

As a suggested way to hit back, have you claimed for *ALL* your incidental 
costs ? Taxis, interest charges on your Credit Card whilst paying the Hire 
Car bill, etc etc etc.

Which Insurance company are you dealing with ?

> By law, they only have to re-imburse you for financial 
>loss.

	It is a financial loss - when I come to sell, I'll get the same money
	for a 1 year old exhaust as a 1.5 year-old exhaust, and they want me to
	pay for this.

>As a suggested way to hit back, have you claimed for *ALL* your incidental 
>costs ? Taxis, interest charges on your Credit Card whilst paying the Hire 
>Car bill, etc etc etc.
>
>Which Insurance company are you dealing with ?

	Dealing with Swinton Insurance brokers
	Ibex insurance (mine) Eagle star (theirs)
	and I forget which legal protection mob.

	I'm trying the "uninsured losses" route at the moment

	Heather 

    
    
    Has anyone had experience of this one.
    
    I had an accident in December 1991 and it was not my fault .
    When it came round to renew my insurance in May 92 I was told that I
    had no no claims bonus...It would have been 60%.
     The Insurance company said that once my claim was settled in full I
    would get it back.
    
    So the question is will I get 60% or will I get less and will the
    insurance company reimburse my premium money.
    
    I went from paying 117 to about 700 and on current insurance costs I
    will be expected to pay around 980....aghhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    
    
    Thanks in advance 
    
    Tom.

    Has the claim been settled yet.....?
    Why has it took so long to settle it..?
    
    
    
    Mr Nosey.

    
    
    Still not settled yet so I am hoping its done before may.
    
    It has taken so long because a certain Insurance com,pany are doing
    thier usual mega stalling that they seem to be well known for.
    
    
    Mrs Nosey
    

    
    All insurance companies mega-stall.  This is standard.  If you have a
    good claim, with witnesses, it may only take a long time.  Usually it
    takes a very long time. Sometimes, even if you are wholly the innocent
    party and can prove it, the insurance company will settle the claim
    knock-for-knock, which means you lose NCB, because they happen to have
    an agreement with the other driver's insurance company.
    
    They shouldn't kill your entire NCB over one accident, unless you were
    drunk, crazy and convicted 8*)  If they try to pull this sort of stunt,
    shop around before your next renewal.  Don't pay out big dosh without
    lots of other quotes.  These are hard times.  Lots of other people
    would like your custom.
    
    Richard
    
    

To take things in order.....

Once the claim is settled, your NCD will be re-instated to whatever it would 
have been without the claim. In addition, the insurance company will refund 
the additional premium you paid. (Watch your brokers don't take a bit).

What reason is it being delayed for ?

And then....
 
>    All insurance companies mega-stall.  This is standard.  If you have a
>    good claim, with witnesses, it may only take a long time.  Usually it
>    takes a very long time. 

A ridiculous statement. Composite companies will make every effort to pay as 
soon as possible. The amount of interest they get from delaying your �1000 is 
nothing to the damage you do to their reputation and then to what they have 
to spend resetting peoples perception. Usually the reason claims are delayed 
is that some Insurance companies, the ones that charge cheaper premiums 
generally, spend so little on computers and automated processes, that their 
admin is absolutely crap. This particulary affects Lloyds syndicates where 
they try and keep their staff as low as possible. It is, in fatc, EXTREMELY 
rare for an Insurer to deliberately delay a payment. There are two 
exceptions; First is in the event of a theft claim, second is in the event 
that they feel someone is ebing dishonest and they wait to see what sort of 
fuss is made.

>			Sometimes, even if you are wholly the innocent
>    party and can prove it, the insurance company will settle the claim
>    knock-for-knock, which means you lose NCB, because they happen to have
>    an agreement with the other driver's insurance company.
 
Wrong.

A "knock for knock" agreement is simply and agreement between insurers that 
they will not pursue each other for their losses. It is nothing to do with 
the allocation of blame or loss of NCD. However, in the "old" days they could 
prove who was at fault by this claim. i.e. if they got their money back, you 
weren't. These days this doesn't happen. Typically an uninsured loss will be 
involved. Frequently the recovery, or not, of this will be used as an 
indication of blame. This is not always the case, and your bonus can be 
recovered where the situation is clear, even without this.

>    They shouldn't kill your entire NCB over one accident, unless you were
>    drunk, crazy and convicted 8*) 

Whether you were d,c or c makes no difference whatsoever to your ncd, nor may 
it legally do so. Typically an Insurer will take your NCD entitlement at your 
LAST renewal and then reduce that by 2yrs. Sometimes 3, if they're a company 
that awards 65% in the 5th year.

>    shop around before your next renewal.  Don't pay out big dosh without
>    lots of other quotes.  These are hard times.  Lots of other people
>    would like your custom.
 
Now, there is a VERY good bit of advice..

    
    Are you in the AA or anything similar?
    
    I had just this experience in the 70s. People who hit me wouldn't admit
    responsibility so I my NCB was 'held in abeyance' until such time as
    the claim was sorted in my favour. I was a member of the AA and so took
    them up on their free offer of legal assistance.
    
    18 months later they managed to get my full no claims back, the money
    I'd payed over the odds AND my excess I'd had to pay to get my own car
    fixed. They took the other people to court but I never got involved
    whatsoever. In other words they did a 100% job.
    
    The only lasting effect was that, at the time I dearly wanted a TR6 at
    the time but as long as I didn't have my NCB then I couldn't afford the
    insurance. I never did get round to getting one!
    
    Richard
    
    

    
    Yes I have the legal assistance bit....and they have been chasing them
    up.
     But the other company keep asking for reciepts and letters etc
    eventhough I have given them these at least twice already.
    
    Tom.

re:           <<< Note 142.16 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>

>	I have a form which says I have to pay 20% of the cost of a new exhaust
>	Is this normal/reasonable, and can I claim it back on un-insured losses?
>	The exhaust is about 6 months old.


	Well, uninsured losses have so far given me back:

	50 quid excess
	90 quid car hire
	14 quid prescription charges
	8.50 for doctors signature to refer me to physio

	They will pay for the 40 quid special pillow for my neck, and for
	the physio, about 150 quid so far - I haven't finished the treatment 
	yet.

	They are also pushing for compensation for my whiplash.

	I have to fund 9.50 towards the exhaust

	I was wondering if I didn't have my own car and insurance cover but
	took a Digital car through the scheme, would Digital, through whatever 
	self/insurance they have, have re-imbersed me for the prescriptions, 
	referal, pillow, and compensation?

	Heather

No.

Those items were paid for by the TP's Insurers. The money was recovered by 
the Legal Assistance/Uninsured loss recovery policy you had alos taken out.

You can still take out one of these policies, even if you do not insure your 
own car. How worthwhile this is, is open to debate. Also, Insurance 
Agents/Brokers/Whatever are not keen on the idea. They tend to get loads of 
hassle for minimum dosh.

Your only option, realistically, if you'd been in a Digital car, would have 
been to attempt to ride on the back of whatever action Digital was taking to 
recover its own losses. Or, of course, to pursue your own action. It's 
actually not that difficult and there are several solicitors/organisations 
around that have various "payment on results" schemes.

The most usual problem is the complete and pig-headed intransigence of a TP. 
Frequently this leaves the Loss Recovery services helpless as well, since in 
reality they rarely sue unless there is laods of money involved and they are 
dead sure of winning.

>The most usual problem is the complete and pig-headed intransigence of a TP. 
>Frequently this leaves the Loss Recovery services helpless as well, since in 
>reality they rarely sue unless there is laods of money involved and they are 
>dead sure of winning.

	Well, they've paid out everything I've put in so far (apart from exhust
	excess at 9.50), so I assume the TP insurers have admited liability.

	My neck is due to be inspected by a consultant in September, as they 
	reckon it will be OK by then - which begs the question - so how did they
	know how bad it really was, whats the point inspecting a recovered 
	injury.

	So, This is the only time I've had to use the uninsured losses, but
	they have "come up with the goods" so far.

	If I ever get a company car, I'll have to remember to check this.

	Heather