Conference terri::cars_uk

Did anyone else see the newspaper article a day or so back, about the firm 
in (I think) Manchester, who sell a 150-quid gadget called the "Alarm 
Eliminator", or some-such ?

Having been inmvolved in this sort of business many years back, 
I've always maintained that it should be very easy to make a pocket-sized box 
of tricks which will scan rapidly through the relatively small number of code 
combinations used by infra-red or radio systems used in many alarms and 
central locking systems.     In fact, I'd assumed that the 
stripey-sweater-and-mask fraternity had already got them, probabaly 
hand-crafted by crooked engineers, but now it appears that these people are
turning them out commercially at 150 notes a time......"for professional 
use in the motor trade".  Well, I suppose you could argue that nicking cars is a profession.
It's not, of course, illegal to sell or own one of these things, in the 
same way that it's not illegal to have a crowbar until you pry somebody's 
door off with it.....

Seemingly, even Audi, who fit one of the most sophisticated (that's a 
relative term, of course) frequency-hopping systems, are worried.  The 
manufacturers claim that their magic box will hit the right combination to 
disable any i/r or radio-link alarm within one minute.

My reaction to that was to go out and disconnect the i/r sensor on my 
central locking and go back to old-fashioned keys.    
Of course, the same company also sell "skeleton keys" at 50 quid a set....

The next step has got to involve connecting the locking sensor direct to the 
trigger input on the alarm, so if anybody hits it with a pulse-train, it 
goes off!!!


Ian

    I read that article, and jolly worrying it is!
    
    Imagine using the device in a car-park for a couple of minutes, and
    unlocking EVERY car!
    
    Or worse, doing the opposite when travelling down the M25, ENABLING
    everyones alarm in the immediate vicinity!
    
    mb

I thought alarms had a "sensor" wire you connected to the ignition which
prevented them being enabled (ie they ignore signals from the remote control
device) while the car is running?

This prevents malicious people enabling the alarms on moving cars...

Thye do, but I think it's main intention is to stop the alarm being enabled
accidentally while on the move, ie by somebody fiddling with the little
transmitter dangling on the key-ring......

    This is very easy to defeat by good design in the alarm. It should have
    a breakin detection counter which counts up when it receives a bad code
    (with good parity or some other check so that junk signals are
    ignored). The counter would count down every 5 seconds while non-zero.
    If the counter get above some threshold (like 10) then it would treat
    all received codes as bad. This would mean that you can only make one
    try every few seconds. I dont know if any alarms do this.
    
    Andrew

None of the commerical ones that I know of.  (and I modestly admit to 
knowing a few...;-)

Agreed, it would be easy enough to do, and it's not uncommon on building
alarm systems (and, closer to home, our own beloved VMS), but it would cost
more.  Not very much, I'll grant you, but presumably enough to make a 
difference in sales.

It's the old story again, I'm afraid...... people will pay more for a better
stereo, but they won't pay a bit extra to stop it getting stolen!

Ian

    Even if you implement "breakin detection" on the alarm, it doesn't stop
    someone with a radio receiver recording the code used when you disable
    the alarm, then playing it back later on when you are gone!
    
    The only sure-fire way is to implement some form of public key
    cryptography system (don't ask me how it works), where the car actually
    transmits to the alarm button as well as the other way around.
    
    Stick to keys!
    
    mb

Siemens (I think..) actually market a chip-set which changes its code every time you
you use it,  

but then again, it costs more.....

    Re: .44
    
    the problem with the system that changes its code each time is that if
    you press the button while you are away from your car, the code changes
    (according to some mathematical formula) in the remote but not the car.
    
    Thus they build in some logic that allows the 8 most recent codes to be
    valid, so that a few accidental presses won't lock you out, but the
    ninth press may cause problems!
    
    mb
    
    p.s.
    
    This was on Tomorrow's World, so i could be talking cr*p!

    
    Or...  have a car that no-one wants to run off with! - my Landy has
    been sitting outside the house for about two weeks now, either with the
    doors held shut with a piece of string (while it waited for me to paint
    the lock area)  and for the last three days without a door!  (Waiting 
    for this *(&**  rain to go away so I can paint the door hinge
    mountings! Or maybe next-doors cat has been frightening off would-be
    burglers! -    :-)

RE: .45

Then we need a 2 phase locking protocol built-in with "prepare to commit"
type syntax - should be pretty straight forward!?

    Yes, but it's still only got a 4-or-5-bit code.  Really doesn't tke
    very long to whizz through the variations.
    
    even better, I have heard, since I posted my earlier note about
    code-switching remotes (I've had some fascinating mails, BTW...at least
    three wanting to know how to build a code scanner...), that the Alarm
    Eliminator is very popular with AA and RAC men, for getting into cars
    whose owners have been fiddling with the remote zappers and gone
    past their nine "free" zaps!  Or, more prosaically, lost them.
    
    I

    4 or 5 bit code ?
    
    All the ones I've had have used much more than that. I think they had
    something like an 11 digit code, each digit taking one of 3 values.
    
    I doesn't take long to scan through all those codes if you can send
    hundreds a second though.
    
    Andrew

OK, so they've moved on a little since I last checked, but you take my point,
right ?

    Are there any electricians out there ?
    
    The story:
    
    I have a ford fiesta 1.4s
    
    I have bought an MS705 moss alarm
    
    What I need to know is:
    
    The orange wire is supposed to be connected to the sidelights or dipped
    beam. On most of the cars you see they are attached to the indicator
    lights. Therefore can I not connect ot to one sidelight and then
    scothlook to the next. Or do I have to connect to the sidelight or
    dipped headlight. If I do this does it have to be both.
    
    Can I attach the red lead to the battery for permanent access to the
    12v supply via a fuse connection or does this eliminate the current
    sensing option, thus having to go the longer way via the fuse box.
    
    Can I attach the yellow wire via the steering column lock for an
    intermitant (wrong spelling) 12v supply i.e. only when the car is
    turned on to prevent the alarm being switched on when the car is
    moving.
    
    
    Your answers would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike. 

    re .51 this should read can I therefore attach it to the indicator
    lights and then scotchlock it to the other. i have been told that this
    in normal mode without the alrm will make all indicators go off when i
    turn left
    
    Does anyone know of a way that you can rig a simple imobiliser switch
    from a hidden switch inside the car ?
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike.

    I think that you have the same model alarm as I fitted to my wife's car
    about 18 months ago.
    
    Aren't there 2 orange wires ?
    
    I seem to remember thinking "I'll only rig up one headlight to flash",
    as I had mounted the alarm unit well to one side of the engine
    compartment and didn't want to bother running a wire all the way
    around. I found that you have to have *both* orange wires going
    somewhere before either light would flash when arming it. 
    
    Graham
    
    

>    Does anyone know of a way that you can rig a simple imobiliser switch
>    from a hidden switch inside the car ?

Yes. 

Look for an option you haven't got fitted to your car.

	e.g. Cavailier -> Heated seats
	        Escort -> Front Spots

And then go and buy the switch for this option. Plug it in to the appropriate
place (remove the blanking plate) and then run the wire to the live side of the
coil through this switch.

It may be obvious to you, but not to anyone who doesn't know. A combination is
always good. i.e. Switch A must be on and switch B must be off.

As for the Alarm problems, this is an alarm I know a bit about, but I don't
really understand what you're trying to achieve (I'm in a dense mood today). If
you can restate your questions, I'll try harder.

M.

Re the Moss MS 705:

1.  I found the Moss manual very explicit and easy to follow.
That's probably the best source of info.  It says *exactly* which bits of the
electrical circuit to connect each wire to.

2.  There is a Moss "helpline" (the number's in your manual); they can answer
and questions you have.

3.  To make all the indicators flash when you arm the alarm, try connecting the
wire to the hazard flasher circuit.  Or as has already been suggested, aren't
there two wires anyway, one for each side?

    Re the orange Wire there is only one Pink one ! This has all the
    warnings about putting onto the mainbeam, so I have taken this as the
    orange wire. What I would like to do is connect the orange(pink) wire
    to the hazard warning cables in order to have the indicators flashing
    instead of the main or side lights.
    
    Regards,
    
    Mike.
    

Are you sure you have the correct instructions ?

There should be fourteen or so wires, of which there are two pairs (grey and
pink) and one of which is the ribbon cable.

 Re. Number of Orange (Pink?) wires. I know that my MS715 had two of these, and
so I connected one to each indicator, but I do beleive that the lower MS705 only
has one, so is intended to be used on the headlamps. But I like the idea of
connecting it to the hazard warnings.

  I found that the Moss manual was perfectly adequate for installing the alarm,
but then I am doing an Electronics degree !!!!! Despite that I did try to be
lazy, and connected just one of the wires to both inicators. Instant hazard
warning when indicating !!!

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    I once installed a MS705, which only had a single lead.
    To overcome this I bought a pair of heavy duty diodes and used them to
    provide two separate wires from the one, so that both indicators would
    flash and also to stop the hazard effect when indicating as mentioned in
    the previous note - this worked very well.
    
    Raj

    
    Does anyone have any experience of the Lazerline System 3 system, or
    the Honda installed alarms ? What are they like for reliability and
    false alarms ?
    
    Also, the Honda alarm system quoted to me (I don't have the model
    number) included an ignition cutoff mechanism. This gets me a bit
    worried as the private alarm company quoting the Lazerline system
    says they won't install such a system cos they keep cutting the
    ignition off on the move !
    
    Has anyone experienced this ? Thoughts on the pros/cons of ignition
    cutoff ?
    
    Julian
    
    

    My local Honda garage (Smiths, Fleet) do not recommend the Honda badged
    alarm. They cited reliablity as the reason.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the Crimeguard Switchable alarm ?

aparently one can switch off the car interior detection system and just leave 
the bit that detects if someone pats the car in passing ( :-) )

...useful for open top cars...

     It's common practice to have "ignition cut-out" wired to the starter 
     motor (or perhaps the solonoid triger.  So that an already started engine 
     won't care if the alarm goes off for some reason.
     
     I don't know if the alarm has to be designed with this in mind, i'd doubt 
     it though.  Worth a call to the alarm manufacturer.
     
     Robert.

    I have a Laserline System 3 fitted to my current car. No problems at
    all, works a treat, not one false alarm yet after 1 year, unlike my
    previous expierences with Moss, Scorion and paranha alarm units.
    
    When deciding which alarm to fit, I spoke to a lot of people who all
    had very nice things to say about it. It is very good, but is a bit
    more expensive then the equivalent scorpion or paranha.
    
    Raj
    

Well I finally opted for a Laserline System 2.5 (part way between a System 2 and
a System 3 not suprisingly).

Apparently Laserline have just brought out a new range, giving more options
on the facilities. The system I have had fitted is a System 3 without the
central locking facility. This knocked about 60 pounds off the price ! If you
don't need the ability to unlock the doors from afar, make sure you ask for
a Laserline 948 system rather than the 968 that usually comes with the System 3.

Things haven't got off to a good start though. The system went wrong within 2
days and has had to be replaced ! The shop claimed they only installed Laserline
because they had found these systems to be the most reliable ! I hope I just had
a rare gremlin system.

Interestingly, even though the Laserline system I have had installed has an
engine disabling facility, they recommended that it shouldn't be connected "just
in case". They said they had had a few instances with other alarms of cutting
the engine while moving. Maybe this was a design problem with the systems,
concerned, but they heavily recommended against fitting this facility.


Re .61

I wouldn't say my local Honda dealer was desparate to sell me the Honda system.
They told me I could get the same features for a lot less from an independent
shop. The independents also said that the Honda alarm was unreliable.


Julian

I haven't read through this topic apart from the last few, so this may have
been said, but I think the remote locking facility is well worth it. I
have a Laserline something-or-other on my 205 (currently for sale, hint :-)
I think that it improves overall security, as there is no reason not to
lock up the car while stopping briefly, outside a shop or while paying
for petrol, etc. This one also closes the electric windows, so the car
is completely secured.

It's a real pain having to use a key again now to get into the car!

I have had no problems at all with the system, I would guess that any
reliability problems are down to installation, in general.

Graham.

Can somebody please give some sort of table (best > Worst) of car alarms. I saw
a note talking about a 'which' report, could we have a summary. I would like to
fit one to my Audi and I have the blurb on the following...

Gemini
Sparkrite
Piranha
Clifford
Rapid
Moss

There is a large range of prices/options etc. I have read ALL the other notes
regarding this (there are a lot) and it seems that nearly all seem to suffer
from some 'fault' like false alarms or bad contacts ..etc

I also read a note about a firm who would come to the carpark and fit it for
you, but I can't find it again. Can somebody give the name/phone of this 
company.

I will be coming to Reading for a course soon and I would like to have this
done - its a LOT cheaper in GB than in CH!

thanx

Paul Simons (@EBO DS/TA)

>I also read a note about a firm who would come to the carpark and fit it for
>you, but I can't find it again. Can somebody give the name/phone of this 
>company.


Isn't that VSL ?

Details for UK fleet recommended alarms are in VTX you could try asking 
UK car fleet if you could wangle a fitting :-)

Looked around VTX but I can't find the 'list' of alarms you talked about. Can
you also give me a name to contact to ask about 'free' :-) fitting.

Thanx

Paul

    �'free' :-) fitting
    
    I don't know where Jane gets her information but the only free fitting
    of alarms to comapny cars occurs if you main job function is to carry
    company goods.
    
    You can get VSL to fit alarms for about �250. Dougie posted some info
    about this.
    
    Roy

Re: .69 & .70

I don't know where all these people read these things into my notes...



I didn't say there was a "list" on VTX just information as to how to go about
getting one fitted.


I didn't say fitting was free either....I didn't say anything about cost at 
all.

Alarms are usually approx �200 and fitting costs are entirely dependent on
who fits it...and getting an alarm through digital is not necessarily the 
cheapest way of doing this.


SO THERE !!!!!!!!

    
    Anyone know where one can buy a replacment infa-red sensor thingie
    for a VSL alarm? Mine's knackered.
    
    Richard.

    I am bewildered by the range of alarms and other devices available to
    help protect my car. I'm not keen on an alarm, so can anyone give me an
    idea of what other sort of device I should buy ?
    
    dave
    
    P.S. Small story from my brother. He bought a Krooklok from Halfords,
    on the advice of the assistant and went to fit it to his car.It didn't
    fit so he took it back, where they were very helpful and offered him
    more advice. He was dealing with a different assistant who informed him
    that the Krooklok was 'not much use' since it could be removed quite
    easily. Needless to say he did not take any further useful advice from
    Halford staff.

 There was a krooklock on my car when it was stolen. To remove it the theif 
simply removed the steering wheel, unhooked the krooklock and replaced the
wheel !

	Barrie.

    Hey Barrie, if the car was stolen and not recovered, how do you know
    how the thief removed the krooklock :-)
    
    Roy

    If the Krooklok was tight enough, it would be impossible to remove the
    wheel.
    
    Laurie.

I suspect that this should be a reply to the stolen cars note but as you asked
the question here I'll reply here.

 The Car was recovered.

  It had been stripped of absolutely everything that could be easily removed

 Carpets, Seats, all of the iterior trims, steering wheel, road wheels, radio,
speakers. ( I suspect that the brake disks had been swapped too ).

 For some strange reason some of the things had been replaced by items off an
older ( well used ) car ( i.e. they were prety grotty ): Seats, front door trims,
road wheels ( two steel and two grotty alloys all with bald tyres ). In the boot
was a carpet from an older car ( red instead of blue ), some grotty peices of
trim and my locked krooklock.

 All of the other stuff that I carried around in the car had gone, even my
hair brush !

 There was some minor damage to the bodywork; a dent on the front of the bonnet
and some deep scratches on the roof.

 The engine apparently sounded o.k. I'll never know as the insurance company
wrote the car off.

 The car has now been sold on.


 Barrie ( who misses his GT Turbo ).

Re 77.

 Yes I thought that as well ( my wife had the car that day ) but..

 The GT Turbo steering wheel is a sports style wheel where the wheel can
actually be unbolted from the steering wheel boss.

	Barrie.

    I have one of those Strong Arms which are basically a beefed up
    Krooklock......
    
    I decided not to get an alarm cos having a soft top its so easy to get
    into my car that I would have to buy one of those top range alarms. You
    know, the ones that work even with the top down. I just couldnt afford
    it so I chose to use my steering lock along with my Strong Arm.
    
    Havent had the car nicked yet.....although who'd want to nick a spitty
    anyway ??
    
    Barry
    

    
    I knew it would happen at some point in time. Went out to the
    Fiesta Tuesday morning and what greets me ? Both locks mashed
    up and punched into the door itself leaving behind two rather
    large holes with bent metal along with ruined paint as a 
    surround.
    
    The would be car thieves were either disturbed or gave up. I don't
    think it was the latter. Anyway I got in through the back and 
    opened the doors from the inside. Central locking still worked 
    although I could no longer lock the doors.
    
    I should get the car back from Bromley body repairs tomorrow. At
    least I hope so as they've had the car for two weeks.
    
    I dare say it will happen again.
    
    JN.

    Back to the original question in this note about what alarms we have
    fitted,I am in the process(waiting for the fitter to have 2 free
    days)of getting an alarm and immobiliser fitted,the system is a
    Clifford Eagle ACG which was voted best security system of 1994 by Car
    Hi-Fi magazine,the system being fitted to my car has a few extra's:-
    Sense and Tell,which senses someone standing near the car and tells
    them to "stand back from the car" if they do not move it warns them
    again before sounding the 6 tone siren(I'll certainly recognise my car
    in a car park),and to stop people setting it off deliberately it only
    does this twice before knocking out this circuit and re-arming 30
    minutes later,the rest of the alarm is still functional during this
    time.
    Smart Windows II,which closes the windows when you operate the
    alarm,the windows can also be opened using the transmitter,it also
    makes the windows operate by one press of the button(instead of holding
    it down.
    Additional Cell Powered Siren,fitted inside the car,meant to
    disorientate thiefs should they get past the rest of the
    system(unlikely),imagine trying to hot-wire a car with 120dB blasting
    in your ear!
    There are a lot more extras available that can be added later,like
    remote engine start for example,but at 826 Pounds(including fitting
    which takes two days!)I think it will do to be going on with.
    
    P.S. The car is a Renault 5 GT Turbo.
    
    
    
         Steven(from note 256.)
    
    

    RE: .82
    
    >>Sense and Tell,which senses someone standing near the car and tells
    >>them to "stand back from the car" if they do not move it warns them
    >>again before sounding the 6 tone siren(I'll certainly recognise my car
    
    Like how far "near the car"? 
    

    Re: .83
    
    Sorry it's been so long for the reply but I lost the note.
    
    "near the car" is within a couple of feet,but it is adjustable,anyone
    standing this close to the car is possibly/probably up to no good.
    
    
          Steven.
    
    
    P.S. Anyone requiring more info on the alarm or it's add ons leave a
    reply or contact your local Clifford dealer.

    RE: .84
    
    >>"near the car" is within a couple of feet,but it is adjustable,anyone
    >>standing this close to the car is possibly/probably up to no good.
    
    Do you go to a supermarket for shopping and park in their car park? I
    bet you are going to be popular when the thing gets upset with someone
    parking next to you...!
    
    I can imagine in some places some folks would actually put the boot in
    just to see what happens or because they are just miffed at it!
    
    Dave