Conference 7.286::home_work

When I recently replaced my shingles I ask a friend who owns a real estate
office and is involved with building new homes whether I should put a ridge
vent in and he told me not to unless I wanted the possibility of water
getting into my attic.  His claim was that with driving winds and heavy
rain that it is possible to get some water in the attic.  Now maybe there
are good and bad vents.  I have spoken to someone else who has a ridge vent
and claims that he has had no problems, so who do you believe?  I sure would
hate to have my plastered ceiling get water on it but I would like a cooler
attic.

    	I just had my house inspected and they suggested the same thing.
    Put in a ridge vent with soffets to keep the roof temperture ambient.
    And to keep it separated from the living area.  My attic is a bedroom
    with a cathedral ceiling.
    
    							Jorge'

    There are pitch limits for ridge vents - that is, the two sides
    of it have to slope "down" a certain minimum amount or you can
    get water blown into them.  If you have a relatively low-pitched
    roof you might have problems, otherwise I'd think you should be
    fine.  I think I have the specs for a ridge vent at home someplace
    that gives the minimum pitch, and will try to look it up.
    
    A ridge vent across the top and soffit vents along the eaves are
    THE way to go for attic ventilation, I'd think.  
    
    Steve

    Well, my house was built in '78 with ridge and soffit vents, and
    I've never had any trouble with water getting in, even though I'm
    on the side of a hill and we do occasionally get some significant
    wind-blown rains.

    The only problem I have had is that it's extremely easy for bees
    to work their way through the seams (translation: gaps) in the aluminum
    soffits, and they love to build nests in the attic, but that's another
    story.
    
    -db

    Here's some information about Cor-A-Vent, Inc. ridge vents.  There
    is no absolute statement about minimum pitch in the literature I
    have.  However, there is a note saying that for a 3/12 pitch you
    need to shim the inner edges of the vent to increase the slope of
    the vent, to prevent water infiltration.  Also,
    
      "The ridge vent MUST always be installed in combination with soffit
      vents.  If the ridge vent werre to be installed alone,then part
      of it would serve as an inlet because of air pressure differences
      along the ridge.  This would cause weather infiltration."
    
      "The "Ventilation Chute" or air pasageway between the inlet soffit
      vents and the outlet ridge vent must not be blocked or restricted
      so that the air flow is impeded.  SHould this condition exist, then
      the ridge would function as without soffit vent.  This would also
      cause weather infiltration."
    
      "For every square inch of exhaust vent you MUST balance it with
      one square inch of intake vent."
    
    So...not much talk about minimum pitch, but a lot of talk about
    needing soffit vents too.
    
    Steve
    

    Has anyone installed (DIY) a ridge and soffit vent on a house that
    is not ventilated?  How hard is it to do and what has to be done?
    What is the cost of the vents per foot?
    
    -al

    	I too would like some info on ridge vent installation.  How
    to do it?  How hard is it? How long does it take?  What tools I
    need ? and What will it cost me to do it myself?  Any info is
    appredciated.
    
    					Jorge'

I can't remember exactly, but a ballpark figure would be about $15 for a 10' 
section, plus a couple bucks for connection and end pieces.  Putting one in an 
existing roof is easy.  Take off the cap shingles, and snap a chalkline about 
1-2" (depends on the vent you buy) from the ridge on either side.  Set your 
circular saw at a depth that will cut through the shingles and plywood, and cut 
along both lines.  Pull out the piece in the middle, slather lots of roofing 
tar on both sides of the hole, and nail down the vent.  That's it.

Paul

    	I did it.  I installed the Ridge Vent with no problem.  It took
    me about two hours and cost $14.40 per ten foot length at MAKI home
    center in Fitchburg.  The toughest part was peeling off the shingle
    cap.  The difference in the attic temp is tremendous.  It's well
    worth the trouble.
    
    						Jorge'

    	I put in a ridge vent and am about to finish up with soffit
    vents but have a question.  My house has been vinylized and under
    the eves are these 6" by 12" panels running all along the overhang
    of my roof.  Can I buy soffit vents premade to fit into these spaces
    then avoid improvising holes and screen set-ups.  If there are such
    things about how much and where can I get then?
    
    						Thanks,
    						Jorge'

    I think it will depend on what the panels are made of (it may
    not be easy to install the vents).
    
    Are the panels vinyl ?  If so, you could remove them and install
    special vinyl soffit panels.  These panels have lots of very small
    holes (about 1/8" diameter).
    
    
    Mark
    

    Could someone explain what a soffit vent is, what it does
    and how I will know if I have one, or need one ?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    dick
    

    "Soffits" are otherwise known as "the bottom edge of the roof".
     In the past few years (ever since houses became tighter and people
    began installing gobs of insulation) ventilation has become a
    significant consideration in a house.  If there isn't sufficient
    ventilation, condensation can make the insulation soggy, leading
    to rot and ruined plaster and other similar disasters.  One of the
    best ways to ventilate an attic space is to have a ridge vent and
    soffit vents, so air flows up through the soffit vents, along the
    inner surface of the roof, and out the ridge vent. (Note that for
    this to work properly there must be a clear space between the inner
    surface of the roof and any insulation that is between the roof
    rafters.)
    So...to see if you have soffit vents, go look at the underside of
    the bottom edge of your roof:
    
    				/
    			       /
    			      /
    			     /
    			    /
    			   /
    			  /
    			 /_______
    			    ^	|
    			    /	|
    		look here _/    |
    
    If you have soffit vents you'll probably see either A) a continuous
    open strip about an inch wide, with a screen in the top of it;
    B) a series of rectangular screens about 3" x 8" spaced at intervals
    along the soffit; or C) a series of round louvered plugs, anywhere
    from 1" to possibly 3" in diameter, along the soffit.
    
    Do you need 'em?  Not necessarily.  If you don't have problems with
    condensation moisture in your attic, don't bother.
    
    Steve
    
    

    Based on your explanation of soffit vents I don't think I have any,
    Thanks for the explanation Steve.
    

    Re -1. How far below the plywood were the roof trusses. I would
    imagine that if you're not careful you could cut right through them.
    
    STEVE
    

Soffit vents come in a variety of sizes and shapes. I have used two 
different techniques on our house.

1) Drill holes in the soffit and insert cylindrical aluminum vents. 
These come in various diameters and can be purchased at most lumber 
yards.

2) Take out the soffit and install n" * m" rectangular soffit "screens"
These come in a variety of dimensions. I believe the ones in my house 
are 4" x 16", and they are nailed to the same surface -roof rafters?- 
that the soffit was nailed to. 

The latter one is more work but provides much more ventilation and is 
probably less expensive.

3) A third possibility would be to use a combination of an electric 
drill and a jig saw, cut out rectangular holes and nail the 
rectangular vents to the soffit.


			herb

   Re: .10
    
    If you are unsure how deep, a cut to make, cut a "pilot" hole first
    to check the wood thickness, then make the saw cut just a 'smidgen
    less. Seems like it should work on "conventional" roofs, as well
    (regular roof boards, rather than plywood).
    
    Bob
    

    Ice dam season is over and re-roofing season is about to begin.

    If you are contemplating installing a ridge vent as part of a
    re-roofing project and are wondering what to do about soffit vents, 
    consider this product, Its a combination aluminum drip edge/soffit vent. 
    
                                  /
                                 /
                                /
                               /_____
                                 ^   |
            This surface is vented   |
                                     /

    You install it in a similar manner as a ridge vent, ie. rip off a 1 to 2
    inch strip of plywood from the bottom edge of the roof and use the 
    drip edge with built in vents along the bottom edge. 

    Charly

    Where does one obtain this fancy new drip edge?  Sounds like it's
    exactly what I need.
    

    re: .7
    
    I saw it at Sommerville Lumber last week.  It was $12.95 for a 10
    ft. section.  Since Sommerville is usually 50% higher than most
    places, you should be able to get it cheaper elsewhere.  Has anybody
    seen this stuff at ah.. ummmm...
    
    Grossman's???
    
    It must be cheaper than Sommerville!!!!
    

Before I can do my roofing project, I need to build my eaves.  In one place the
roof overhangs by about 2 feet requiring a 24" soffit.  Most soffits I've
seen are usually up to about 8" wide and are made of plain ol' pine.  I think
the width of mines dictate plywood.  Does this sound like the way to go?  How
about thickness - do I need 3/4" or can I get away with something like 5/8"
(especially since I have about 6 sheets of sanded, high quality underlayment
which was delivered for roofing since the lumberyard was out of cdx!

-mark

    If you look at most soffit installed by builders lately, you will
    find some of the most cheap inexpensive crap ever produced.  The
    soffit on our house resembles homosote or pressboard or some such
    junk.  You can imagine what happened the first time the roof leaked
    and it got a little wet; it simply disintegrated.
    
    I'm not saying this to say you should use inexpensive crap, just
    to say that you don't need anything too exotic. I would think that
    5/8" or even 1/2" is adequate.  Soffit doesn't need to support any
    load, in fact since you may want to hold it in place by molding,
    it's possible that lighter is better.
    
    BTW, you have a good opportunity to install continuous soffit vents.
    I think you can buy it, but is seems just as easy to me to just
    cut a long narrow opening, covering it with screening on the inside,
    and sealing it with some sort of molding.

    
    Clay

    
    	3/8" finished on side exterior grade plywood is what is
    	normally used for a good soffit.  Make sure it is exterior
    	grade !
    
    	The easiest and best vent system to use is what is called a
    	hicks vent.  It is a combination drip edge/vent that runs along
    	the roof line just above the facia.  Its nice because its
    	hidden, provides good ventilation, you have to put up
    	a drip edge anyway, and doesn't interfere with painting the
    	soffit.
    
    	Tony Grise

RE:1481.0 

	Hi Mark=-

	     I redid my soffits and fascia 3 years ago.  We replaced the
	fascia with 2X and the soffit with perforated vinyl soffit.  My 
	overhang is 12 to 14" but I am sure this stuff was intended to also
	do larger openings.  And you don't have to worry about vents they're
	built in.  I also covered the fascia boards with aluminum.  So my
	gutter area is all waterresistant and doesn't need paint.  Read that
	low maintenance.  I love it.

	The stuff is pretty cheap too as I recall, cut it with tin snips
	or whatever.

					Something to consider, Randy

Even 5/8" is way overkill.  3/8" is actually rated for 24" span on a roof 
(not that I'd use it that thin, but it won't break under a snow load).  The 
soffits have zero load.  3/8" would be plenty, 1/4" would probably be fine but 
might sag a bit in time.

On the other hand, 3/8" AC plywood is probably going to be more expensive than
5/8 CDX, so I'd use the stuff you got for the soffits and replace it with more 
cdx for the roof.

Paul

Sounds like I'll go with the 5/8" stuff.  I realize that structurally (there 
ain't any) I could go with something thinner, but I was concerned about stuff
like warping and side nailing into it.

btw - I plan to reuse the soffit vents that I took off.  They are indeed the
	combination of drip edge and vent.  Real nice stuff and sisnce it is
	hidden, the few dents I put in when I took it off won't even show.

As another thought, I've always noticed that builders always use common nails
when putting in the eaves, freeze boards and other miscellaneous trim.  Can I
assume that this is so when in the future boards want to warp and such there is
more nail resistance?  I'm really tempted to use finishing nails (since they
look better), but since virtually EVERY house I've ever seen uses common nails
I figure there's got to be a reason...

-mark

>As another thought, I've always noticed that builders always use common nails
>when putting in the eaves, freeze boards and other miscellaneous trim.  Can I
>assume that this is so when in the future boards want to warp and such there is
>more nail resistance?  I'm really tempted to use finishing nails (since they
>look better), but since virtually EVERY house I've ever seen uses common nails
>I figure there's got to be a reason...

It's a combination of two things.  One, yes, it helps keep things from warping. 
And two, it's very easy to get concerned about visual details that are 
essentially invisible.  Up on a soffit, once it's painted, no one's ever going 
to notice the difference, unless they squint their eyes and look specifically 
to see what nails THEY should use on THEIR soffit.  :^)

As an example, when I put in the vent stacks on our house, one of them was off 
vertical by about 5�.  You could see it from the street, and it bugged me no 
end at first, I was sure that everyone driving in would notice that it was 
crooked.  Fixing it would be a real pain, I couldn't move the bottom, and the 
top was already shingled.  But I haven't noticed it since, and I'd bet the 
house that no one else has either.

Paul

    Re: nails.  I'd go with galvanized box nails.

Re:  1481.3
    
>>>	     I redid my soffits and fascia 3 years ago.  We replaced the
>>>	fascia with 2X and the soffit with perforated vinyl soffit.
    

    Where can I buy this type of soffit vent?  I was in Spags the other
    day, and as far as I could find, they only have the lovered circular
    "push-in" vents.  The house that I moved into last March has some
    serious ventilation problems, leading to rotting in some of the
    window frames around the bathroom (guess what doesn't have a vent?!).
    
    Jim

    I just replaced some of my eave before putting in a bow window.
    
    I used 3/8" AC and it was more than adequate.  I do think you'd
    want to go with A on one side for appearance sake.  After all it's
    primary function is aesthetics.  5/8" seems like additional money
    for no gain considering 5/8" is more than they use on roofs.
    
    On my house, the facia board was grooved the length of the board
    and the 3/8" AC slide into it for support.  Nailed to the 2x whatevers
    and then molding nailed at the joint of the eave and the house.
    

    Speaking of eaves.   Does anyone have the formula for ventillation?
    I need to know how much ventillation area is needed.
    
    Earlier someone mentioned the ventillating drip edge.   I would
    strongly discourage its use if you intend to put in gutters.  The
    ice build-up in the gutters will in all likelihood find its way
    into the vent, causing you all kinds of grief.
    
    I replaced my ventillating drip edge this summer, and that is why
    I need to know how much vent area is needed...
    
    In any circumstances, make sure your eaves are sloped outwards so
    that any water that does get in will not drain back towards the
    house.

RE:1481.8 

    Hi Jim,

>    Where can I buy this type of soffit vent?  I was in Spags the other

	I worked with the contractor on this job, so he dealt with all the
	supplies.  But I think some of the lumber yards, those that do any-
	thing with vinyl or aluminum should have it.  Or you might be able
	to find a contractor that would be willing to order it for you,
	know any friendly contractors :-), Seriously one of my neighbors
	is a contractor, very handy.

	Good Luck Randy

>    Speaking of eaves.   Does anyone have the formula for ventillation?
>    I need to know how much ventillation area is needed.

See note 823.14

Paul

    
    
    I need some help with attic insulation.  The insulation in my
    attic is pretty well jammed into the space between the rafter
    ends and the floor joists.  I have just installed soffit vents
    and have a ridge vent.  I need some suggestions on how to re-open
    the space in question.  I have thought about pulling back the 
    insulation bats a few inches to allow for some air flow, but
    that would leave some piece of the wall and ceiling for the
    living space below uninsulated.  The other suggestion I got
    from Somerville Lumber is to jamb a piece of Proper vent
    between the roof and insulation and staple it to the rafters.
    That sounds ok but the proper vent is not very rigid and would
    probably break under any kind of stress.  Any ideas ???
    
    
    
    Peter
    
    

    I recommend that you first pull back the insulation, then take
    a 1-2 foot section of the proper vent and staple it in the correct
    place.  Then put the insulation back in place making sure that
    you do not force it.  The proper vent should be rigid enough to
    maintain a 1-2 inch gap and it won't break under normal handling
    conditions.
    
    -al

    What's a proper vent?  This sounds similar to what I'm supposed
    to do in my attic.
    
    Elaine

But what stress is the propa (trade mark, I think) vent going to be subjected 
to, sitting there in your attic?

Paul

    
    If you don't pull the insulation bats out of the way and try to
    stuff the styrofoam vents between the rafters and insulation the
    vent material will self destruct.  It seems reasonable to pull the
    insulation bats back when installing the vent material between the
    rafters, however, is it necessary to restore the bats 
    to their original position near the rafter ends or will the amount
    of heat lost in that area be minimal ?
    
    In response to .2, proper, propa or poly vents are styrofoam like
    sheets, around 1/2 inch thick with a channel molded into it.  This
    is the stuff used for ventilating cathederal ceilings.
    
    
    Peter
    
                                       

    Do roofers, plumbers, and other home-repair-type people make more
    money than engineer-type people?  Much more?  It seems like if
    you subtract materials and divide the remainder by the number of
    hours, they make a massive killing.

    	When I first bought my house I needed roof vents installed.
    I'm not crazy about heights and 45� roofs so I hired a roofer.
    After the he finished he said that I looked strong enough and 
    would I like a job as a roofer.  I politely declined explaining
    that I went to college and work as an engineer.  He told me that
    he would start me at *$20* an hour and within 6 months I would be
    making *$25* an hour.  He stated that there would be all the work
    I wanted in the spring and summer and I could make $40,000 per
    year.  By the way, the man had only seven fingers.
    	When I bought vinyl replacement windows I opted to install them
    myself.  The supervisor of the installation crew came by my house
    on Saturday morning to give me a free lesson.  After watching me
    install the window he offered me a job at $15/hour installing.
    The pay wasn't as good as the roofer, but at least he had all his
    body parts!
    	The plumber that I hired for my bathroom addition charges
    $350 per day for himself and a plumber assistant (his brother).
    He gets $200/day for himself and works 6 days a week during the
    winter, 4 days a week during the summer.
    	The boom in real estate has resulted in good pay for lots 
    of skilled and semi-skilled tradesmen.  It can't last forever.
    
    					=Ralph=

    
    keep in mind that the housing business goes in cycles, and in a
    recession carpenters, roofers, electricians and the like are often
    out of a job.  When it's good it's good, and when it ain't it ain't.
    Now, auto mechanics, on the other hand seem to have it pretty good.
    Most of us still need our cars when times are tough, and during
    the bad times we keep our old cars and keep having'em fixed.
    
    tm
    

Tell the truth now: are you really in engineering just for the money?  I 
don't think there's enough money to get me to do anything I didn't 
enjoy for a living.  I don't think I'd enjoy plumbing, roofing or 
carpentry even if it meant I could live in the Bahamas all winter. (And 
that's pretty strong incentive!)

						>>>==>PStJTT

    I put *lots* of ceramic tile in my bathrooms.   I bought all of
    the tile from one place, and later bought carpet from them.  I put
    all of the tile in myself, and had them install the carpet.  When
    they came out and installed the carpet, I showed them all of the
    tile work.   They offered me a job on weekends and evenings installing
    tile for them...

    
    But auto mechanics don't really have it *that* good - I grew up
    in a mechanic family.   Walking around on concrete day after day
    (even with the best shoes around) does a job on your ankles and
    knees, and have you ever heard of "mechanic's shoulders"?  That's
    what happens when you work under cars on a lift for years and years.
    The business goes in cycles, no one wants to do big jobs on cars
    at Christmas time, then there's the wedding season...  Nope, think
    I'll stick with hi-tech for a while longer.  ;-)
    
      Conni
    

    Not as much as television evangelists, the soul engineers...Amen
    

     Unless you're a really *BIG* contractor or business the money ain't
    that hot! You're only working part of the year, you have to pay
    your own insurance, no paid holidays and sick leave, you often have
    to use your own car for hauling mat'ls, you have to pay sub-contractors
    to do the work you can't or don't have time to do, you have to pay
    for permits, most of the time you have to use the banks money and
    keep excellent records of it as well, plus keeping all those tax
    records! Believe me if you make 35-40k a year now at Dec, you're
    90% better off! I did all that stuff with an uncle of mine who built
    2-3 houses a year. You have to invest heavily into good equipment
    work 7 days a week (because you've got bank deadlines to meet) and
    from sun up to sun down. He usually cleared 20-25k per house before
    taxes. 
     The only good thing about knowing that type of work is that you
    can fix your own house and know when someone you hire is doing a
    good job for you plus knowing just how you want it done, and then
    there's the health part about good physical excersize and the outdoors.
     It certainly doesn't hurt to make 20-25 dollars an hour on a few
    weekends or weeknights. I'd ask to see if they'll let you do that!
    
    Bruce

First, we engineers get to sit about and work all day, then go home, and relax. 
No engineering to do around the house.  Tradesmen get to work HARD all day, 
then go home and perhaps work hard on their own house (or does a plumber call 
a plumber to fix a leak?).

Second, when we engineer a problem into our work, we get paid to fix it.  When 
a tradesman builds a problem into your house, usually, he pays to fix it, or 
gets dragged to court, or gets dragged thru a notesfile.


	- JP (who wouldn't work on septic problems for all the Mercedes
			in the world)

    
    I put a 20x24 ft. addition on my house. It's a two car garage with
    faily room above;cathederal ceiling;5x8x24ft. beam;skylights the
    whole 9 yards. It came out beautiful and I was offered jobs by other
    builders and all that. BUT, working on your own home and working
    on other peoples' homes for a living is two completely different
    things!!!!! It's not a Rose Garden!!!! Some of the people you have
    to deal with really make you want to say the hell with it. 
    
    
    Also jobs require labor and that's OK when your under 40 yrs. old
    or so but other than that your better off at DEC and do small jobs
    on the side.
    
    Bob

    	My old neighbor works as a forman for a rather large builder
    in the metrowest area. Without going into details (mainly because
    his wife works for DEC) he makes what I consider to be very good
    money. But he has to realy work for his money. He works sunup to
    sundown 5 1/2 days a week. Keep in mind how long the days are in
    the summer. Now his base pay is fair but its his bonus money that
    makes me seriously consider going into the buisness. I would like
    to get nice bonuses for getting projects completed on time or under
    budget. I too would work 6 days a week 10-12 hours a day.
    
    	The other thing to keep in mind is this guy is a Forman which
    is management to us. How much do DEC VP's make? I'm sure its a lot
    more than a builder makes.
    
    				3� more...
    
    	...Dave

    re: .10
    
    How do you work sun-up to sundown on a half day?  Or is the sun
    that cooperative. {:-)
    
    My brother got an EE degree from Clarkson.  He worked for Channel
    Master for a year or two, decided that it really sucked.  He is
    now a carpenter (and one strong sucker) on all the summer condos
    (the latest thing in the Catskills of NY).  He bought a bulldozer
    and a truck and does foundation work on he side.  He just couldn't
    stand working inside under florescent lights with smokers and poor
    ventilation.  He teaches skiing in the winter.  He always enjoyed
    skiing.  He lives at home with our mother and has a nice fat bank
    account.
    
    I graduated from MIT.  I thrive on artificial light and poor air
    quality.  I think that heavy exercise by lifting a pencil and riding
    a swivel chair all day is great.  I saw a guy get his head squashed
    and get to be a vegetable for the rest of his life when I worked
    at a blacktop plant one summer during college.  I have yet to hurt
    myself by dropping a pencil on my foot or falling out of my swivel
    chair.  I have a nice house and a nice fat VISA account.  Each to
    their own I guess.
    
    I remember during my early college years (early '70s) there was
    a job in NY city for $10/hr.  It was digging a subway tunnel.  
    I had a friend who traveled 120 miles each way each day to work 
    on that project.  One day some unexploded dynamite was set off while
    they were working.  He was lucky.  Even though he was relatively
    close to the explosion he came away unscathed.  Back then $10/hr
    was a lot of money to me.  I used to say "for $10/hr I would shovel
    sh*t and eat every third shovel full".  Well, I realize I was wrong.
    The only crazy things I do now are for myself.
    
    Stan

    My cousin (a carpenter) was working on some staging when it collapsed
    and dumped him on his back, on a rock.  He was lucky; he broke his
    back but didn't get paralyzed, and is still working.  But his back
    aches more or less all the time, and he's getting arthritis.
    
    I knew another carpenter who fell out a window and broke his back;
    he wasn't so lucky, and now he's in a wheelchair.
    
    Another friend of mine was a carpenter - an excellent one - who
    gave it up and is now going to school to become a programmer.
    
    In the spring, when I drive by some guys building a porch on a nice 
    sunny, low-60's day, with a gentle wind wafting the scent of apple
    blossoms in the car window, it's real hard to go sit in my office
    all day.  In the middle of winter, when it's 25 degrees and the
    wind is howling and I drive by some poor devils climbing around
    on a roof trying to get a dormer closed in before it snows, I am
    real glad I can go to a nice warm office.

    My neighbor works digging and pouring foundations for houses he
    makes big bucks during the summer but come winter when you cant
    work concrete because its too cold and freezes he is out of work.
    Here in colorado springs winter is very long and about 4 months
    of it are bad for concrete work. Now he could always pour and not
    worry about it but that leads to a bad name and costly repairs at
    his expense. I'd say after all things are considered he does ok
    but nothing to brag about after you average it over a 12 month period.
    He too works sun-up to sunset all summer and his free time is not
    during the best time of the year to go camping.
    It's feast and famine and little between.
    
    -j
    

    There's also a big range in Engineering salaries.  If you're talking
    about $40K you might be comparable with some trades, but the upper
    engineering positions get you into $60-80K - that's gonna be hard
    to match, unless as pointed out earlier you actually run a small
    company and have people working for you.  But that's a hassle level
    that few can deal with.

    
    
    
      My wife could go through 60-80k, without a wink.;-)

    From first hand experience I concur with most of the stated viewpoints.
    
    We are not in the wrong field!!  One question, was this question
    ever asked 10 years ago? You see, back then I was banging nails
    for a living, any carpenter that wasn't union connected and family
    connected for at least 2 gererations got used to being unemployed
    from mid-Dec to mid-March.
    
    Did you ever have to shovel snow and ice off your "desk" when you
    got to work?
    
    As has been said, "When it's good, it's good; when it ain't, it
    ain't."
    
    
    The ain'ts have it by a wide margin, the recent past is a definite
    exception.
    
    Alan

     In my family I have 13 men that do construction work. Seven are
    general contractors, of those five one is retired with the union,
    two work in Hawaii as contractor/builders, another gave it up and
    now has a business selling and installing tires and wheel alignments,
    another has authritis (not too bad though), another is about 60
    years old and still hanging sheetrock and doing remodels. One of
    the ones in Hawaii lost the use of three of his fingers on his left
    hand when his power mitre saw got hungry, they all have back trouble
    and none of them are rich. The other six are just rock hangers and
    general workers, and they work about 8-10 months out of the year
    when things are going good. Two of them work in Hawaii with my uncles
    and seem to be working most of the time because of the weather.
     They have all been hurt at one time or another. I lost one of my
    uncles in Texas when he fell on his back from the second floor
    building. He got up and went back to work thinking he was only shaken
    up a little, he died two hours later of internal bleeding.
    
     So, that type of life is rough on the body as you can imagine.
    The girls like the matcho rough look to these type guys, and so
    do T.V. commercials. These guys are of a different breed and mentality.
    Are we missing out? On the girls and commercials? SO WHAT! I'm happy,
    I can still use all my fingers and toes, I don't have authritis,
    I only have to work eight hours (sometimes a little O.T.), I get
    to go hunting and fishing at the right times of the year, I don't
    have a beer belly and my wife likes me because I don't get home late
    and am not complaining about all the aches, pains and jerks I would
    have to deal with during the day!
     
                                                        
    Bruce

    
    My husband has his own contracting company and is, by FAR, rich!
    
    Sure, we one and a half houses (he has partnerships in two other
    houses) but he works HARD!!!!!!!  He works, sometimes 7 days a week,
    from 6:30 AM to sometimes 10 PM at night.  
    
    He's been lucky -- the jobs he has gotten have been lasting through 
    the winter.  He has to pay about $8,000.00 in insurance, and about
    $2,000.00 a month in taxes.  He buys all the equipment his 8 employees
    use.
    
    Lucky thing I get a steady salary because sometimes times sure are
    hard!  I really look up to contractors on their own, or anyone who
    has to do this for a living.
    
    RESPECT your contractor.  He works HARD for his money!!!!!
    
    --  Colleen

     
     rep. 18.
    
     If they are as honest,no reflection on your hubby,No problem.I
    work hard for MY money too and it is alway's a pleasure to work
    with sombody who is competant.
    
     Its too bad that there are so many Contractors who do not fit into
    the "honest" catagory!!
    
    					wayne

    unfortunately in the trades, there are few real good contractors.
    the problem one has when selecting is a network that really
    discriminates the good from the bad. todays market is sponsoring
    a lot of bad ones. there's so much work, try and get a plumber
    electrician etc. you can but you have to wait. meanwhile
    things are so busy, unfortunately some folks are settling
    for less than they deserve. personally i try to rely on
    personal recommendations, or go visit a job that they are
    currently working on.
    
    
    jim.

    Since I'm just finishing up with a contractor I feel I can comment
    with authority.
    
    I have found that the one I'm using is:
                                
    ...keying on the new house construction.  (That's where the big 
    money is.)  This takes precedence, and who cares if we're done by
    Christmas.  His tree is probably up already.
    
    ...adhering to HIS schedule, not ours.  "I"LL tell you when the house
    is ready for the carpeting/flooring."  Right.  If we had done that
    we'd get rugs after Christmas instead of this week.
    
    An excellent carpenter.  Does beautiful work.  Employs excellent
    tradesmen.  (BTW, if the plastering is supposed to take X days,
    figure 2X.  Both times we've had work done this has been the case.
    Other people haver confirmed this.) 
                                      
    Now, I feel this generally applies to independant contractors, who
    are sometimes at the mercy of tradesmen with full-time day jobs
    on a construction site.   Every timeline he's given us hasn't been
    met.  I hope this is different for the outfits with full-time crews.
    
    My General Order #1 for house construction is:  Schedule construction
    to begin just after a holiday, i.e. give youselves a BIG fudge factor for
    the estimated timeline.
                                  
    #2 is get another quote just before construction begins which is
    the first one with any & all modifications you've made since the
    initial contractor acceptance.  This gives you a better idea of
    the total cost (less surprises) and you can usually figure in the
    extras thrown in during the construction.
                                   
    #3 is get estimates for items you're handling yourself:  carpet,
    appliances, paint & wallpaper/paneling, lighting, etc.
    
    #4: Have a sufficient supply of Valium for your wife.  (The 2X rule
        applies here also.  :-)
        
    In closing (time to go home and check the drug supply), we've heard
    from various people who sell the items mentioned in #4 who say 
    there are a lot of people out there who've no business calling
    themselves contractors, so it's Buyer Beware!   (One story we've
    heard is the contractor who disappeared after receiving the 10K
    downpayment.  When the victims got to court they found they were
    in a line.  What will happen is the "Contractor" will declare
    bankruptcy and that's that.  Over and above the money--I can say
    that 'cause my dormer's done--,episodes like this give the reputable
    contractors a bad name and some needless hassles.)
                                   
    G'night.
    
    							Don
     

    
    I totally agree that Contractors work hard. I had a 24x26 family
    room addition put on my house this year. I also worked hard doing
    something for the contractor during the construction. 
    I got the ball rolling when I fired up the backhoe and dug the
    foundation. We were commited. When he showed up to start the job
    I had him bring his 55 chevy station wagon to my shop. Puzzeled?
    Well while he built the addition I converted his ex-Dragracer into
    a Truck/tractor puller. WE only had a verbal agreement but than
    again I built it onto a dragracer for him years ago, so we were
    friends. 
            We had a few deadlines (set by my better half) that were
    met and some were missed but everything worked out. You see, WE 
    love to barter, except I paid for his two other carpenters wages.
    The room is done and his Puller made the Sept issue of Pulling
    Power magazine.
    
    I don't think I'm in the wrong field and neither is my friend the
    Contractor. We do well at what "we" like and that is the secret.
    If your not happy in the job you have no matter what it pays..do
    something else. Mine doesn't happen to be swinging a hammer at nails
    for a living. I make welding sparks and punch computer keys.
    
    Jim                                                         

    re.18
    
     Please don't take offence to what I'm saying, but just a question
    or two? If you are "really rich" there are no tough times and you
    shouldn't have to work! My realatives do all the things your husband
    does (he's into shopping centers in hawaii right now), he employs
    a lot of people, he has partnerships in income properties, but he
    is not rich. He has toys like most people too. Remember the more
    you make the more you spend and the more taxes you pay. Big boys
    have big toys.
    
     I think the bottom line is what a person has in the bank, that
    he is not dependent upon to live, determines the wealth of that
    individual.
                                     
     What is your definition of rich?
    
    Bruce

    
    
    	RICH: When your money works for you and you don't work for your
    	      money !
    
    	-Steve-
    

re:.23

I just assumed, by the tone of the rest of the note, that the first sentence in 
note .18 left out the word "not": "By far, Not rich."  The note doesn't really 
make sense otherwise.

Paul

    
    RE: .22 -- Thanks for adding a little bit of common sense to this
    discussion.  I'm don't want to flame or get on a soapbox, but: What
    I've been reading here annoys me, in terms of trying to define, from
    the engineering mindset, what is occupationally right and wrong
    with two distinctively different and needed areas of work, and equating
    ultimate job fullfillment with the size of the paycheck.  I'd like
    to look at worth and value as being more important parts of one's
    professional vitae.
    As .22 mentioned, job satisfaction is what you are happy with, what
    you do well, and what comes natural.  Many people who are work as 
    contractors don't think much of what we do for living quite frankly.  
    And not all contractors are destined to kill themselves on the job --
    in fact the "clean industry" we work in is really too new for us to 
    believe that we are immune to job-related injuries, and illnesses.  We 
    work in tight buildings, are pretty sedentary, and work with chemical
    and electonic devices whose exposure is now suspect for a variety
    of health-related problems.  Many people suffer neck, back and hand 
    problems, and all sorts of stress-related disorders.  Recently, a 
    much publicized study suggested that expectant women working around silicone
    were much more likely to have children with birth-defects, or have
    miscarriages.  And we here have to deal with just as many jerks
    as the folks who do construction work do.  Our income levels also
    are not ensured for our career lives.  True, we are on (and have
    been so for a good while) a roll now, but when the industry either
    bottoms out or saturates the market, we too will feel the effects
    economically.
    
    We all work for our money -- and there are just as many
    incompetent engineers as there are contractors -- and the same goes
    for competence in both professions.
    
    Let's not take ourselves or our professional charter too
    seriously.  We all have families to support, mortgage or rent payments
    to make, and lifestyles to support.  So, nobody, including the garbage
    man is in the right or the wrong field, if he or she does the work
    that that field requires well.
    
    Well I guess I did flame, but I like to see things look at in
    perspective.
    
    /Dave 
    

    Re.26
    
      If I'm not mistaken the conference is about making money, and which
    profession is more likely to realize the benefits (wealth) of such
    a profession. Isn't this the topic of this note?
    
    Bruce
         

    
    RE:.27
    
    If *I'm not mistaken* I think I understood the intent of the topic,
    as well as the ensuing dialogue regarding the conditions that prevailed
    in both industries; that is (tongue in cheek), what one had to put
    up with in order to make one's living...
    
    The topic of my reply was not, or is not a criticism of our industry,
    just simply a series of reflections on relative worth, and relative
    ease of making money, job satisfaction, etc.  Unless I'm totally
    out in left field, (which is indeed possible) all these topics relate
    to making money, because the concepts of wealth and worth are very
    interdependent.
    
    /Dave

    
    I passed a couple of carpenters building a new house on the way
    to work this morning.  The temperature was 2 degress with a wind
    chill of around -30 degrees.  Naahhhhh, I'm not in the wrong
    profession!!!
    
    Phil

    Some advantages to outside work. a friend of mine came by last night
    and told me he was laid off from the construction job.
    In the next sentence he asked if I wanted any oranges from Fla.
    He said his other boss who lives in Fla. (winter time) said to come
     down and work for him till it's warm. So he and his wife are leaving
    next Monday. 
    btw he'll still be making $18+ per hr. down there.
    
    sitting at my desk.....Jim

Although this is sort of a "why did they do that" note, it's one I'd like to
generate some discussion on.

I was at a friend's house over the weekend and found out his roof is falling
apart!  Actually what is happening is his cedar shingle roof, which is only
around 12 years old is warping and buckling.  The ceiling in the 2-nd floor are
all catherdral.  Taking all that I've learned both on my own and from this
file, I did some investigation and found out: 


	o	the subroofing was not plywood, which is good.  wooden shingles
		need to breath and must be installed over some kind of firring
		strips.

	o	the roof rafters are only 2X6's - not in itself a problem, but
		it certainly limits the amount of insulation one can put in.

	o	there are eave vents but no ridge vents - a definate no-no

	o	there is 6" of insulation - yikes!!! no room for anything to
		breath!

I assume that either the 6" of insulation or the lack of a ridge vent would
contribute to the problem since the house needs to breath.

He wants to put regular shingle up to save the expense.

I told him that he MUST modify the current situtation to allow some air to
circulate over the insulation.  I then told him the first thing that has to be
done is remove the firring strips.  Ultimately he will have to put down a new
deck on the roof, probably plywood.

The question is how to best handle the venting problem.  All I can think of is
to nail some strips on top of the existing rafters to effectively turn them into
2X8's and then put the decking on.  The only negative in doing this is that he
will still only have 6" of insulation.  One can certainly get more R-Value out
of the rigid stuff, but using this would create an external vapor barrier which
is a no-no.

comments?

-mark

    
    	He's got moisture up there from condensation and if he 
    doesn't act fast he'll have some costly repairs.
    
    Ive been up in attics where plywood was the base and where
    planking was the base. The plywood has glue between each 
    layer which acts like a vapor barrier and doesn't let the
    wood breath. I've seen frost a 1/4" thick on the plywood
    and 0 on the planking.I'll bet the plywood is buckled all
    out of shape.
    
    He needs a ridge vents or vents and he needs them ASAP.
    Come spring the carpenter ants will feast on the damp stuff 
    ... also he'd have been better off with the styrofoam
             
    				___GM___
    		 	

reread the base note.

he doesn't have plywood for the sub-foofing.  also he can't put in a ridge vent
because there's no air space for the air to get to it.

as for the big $$$'s, he's already there...

-mark

You could just rip off the roof boards, and tack propa-vents to the bottom of
the new plywood before putting it down, and then a ridge vent.  That's probably
the lowest cost option.  What I might do is tack another set of 2x6s on top of
the existing ones (giving an 11" space), put in another 3�" of fiberglass,
(giving 9�" - about R30) then plywood and a ridge vent.  With this setup you 
wouldn't need propa vents, sinces there's enough space left.  Propa vents are
expensive, they'd probably cost about the same as buying the extra 3�" of
insulation, so the the only additional cost for the added insulation would be
for the 2x6s.  Also, do you know if there's any vapor barrier in there? 

Paul

I agree with you about adding extra lumber, though I've gotta admit that's a
good idea about the channels also.  I've seen them around and totally forgot 
they existed.  As for existing air space, it looks like there isn't any.

The real drag about adding the extra width to the rafters is that it will screw 
up the rest of the roof line.  BUT - I don't think he really has much choice
either.

-mark

>The real drag about adding the extra width to the rafters is that it will screw
>up the rest of the roof line.  BUT - I don't think he really has much choice
>either.

Well, what kind of siding does he have? You could chop off the existing rafters 
at the edge of the house, cover the ends of the old rafters with new sheathing 
and siding, and run the new rafters long to make the new overhang.  You're
starting to talk about a LOT more work, but it will keep the right look for the 
roofline.  With almost any kind of siding it would be fairly easy to add the
extra 6" under the eaves, but the real pain is at the gable ends.  If the 
siding is clapboards, or, worse, vinyl or aluminum siding, it would be a 
colossal pain to add the little bit extra, since the cut-off pieces run way out 
horizontally on the side of the house.  You'd almost have to take off all 
the siding from the eaves on up and start again.  Shingles wouldn't be bad at 
all, you'd just have to remove the ones that were actually cut.

The big question then becomes: Is all that work worth the extra 3 1/2 inches of
insulation?  I'd say probably not.  I'd either decide that I'd go with a fat 
roofline, or I'd just stick the propa-vents on and leave it at that.

Paul

Aren't there better ways to add more insulation then "thickening the rafters"?
After all, the roof is strong enough, you don't *need* the rafters as rafters,
just something to put add insulation to.

Jim. 

Last week I installed Propa Vents in my finished Cape style 
house.

When the house was built about 3 years ago, the builders 
instulated in such a way as to completely seal off the soffit 
vents from the attic vents.

I wanted to install the propa vents to establish that airway as 
well as stop condensation from forming on the roof nails and then 
dripping water into the insulation and rotting away my roof.  
BUT, of coarse the roofing nails protude through to the inside of 
the roofing plywood.  So I designed a device to insert the propa 
vents.

Basically, it is a metal "plow" (ramped surfaces to allow it to 
be slide by the nails).  Attached to the plow are pieces of 
formica (1' X 8') thus forming a sort of tunnel.  The device is 
inserted into the roof (between the plywood roof and the 
insulation) and then the propa vent is slid in between the 
formica sheets.  Now the device is removed in the same direction 
it was inserted (it definitely helps to have one person in the 
attic and one in the crawl space behind the knee wall).  The 2 
people can now pass the device back and forth between the rafters 
- sort of like a big sewing needle.

Now for the particulars - The formica is used because it is hard 
enough to keep the nails off the styrofoam propa vents yet 
flexible enough so it can be curled up to fit the entire 8 foot 
long pieces in the crawl space behind the knee wall.  The piece 
of formica against the roofing nails must be easily detachable - 
I used velco to fasten it to the metal plow.  This is because 
there is too much "sandwiching" pressure caused by the insulation 
pressing against the roof to be able to remove the metal plow and 
both peices of formica at the same time.  Instead, remove the 
formica that is against the nails - it will slide out easily and 
the metal plow will hold the propa vents from sliding out with 
it.  Now the nails will dig into the propa vent thus allowing the 
metal plow and bottom piece of formica to be removed.  Now the 
propa vent is installed - re-assembly the device and move to the 
next rafter.

I sure this explaination is a little confusing.  If you need more 
explaination, please call or send mail (I am not in this 
conference too often).

-Bill
 CIMAMT::THORPE
 DTN 237-2469

>Aren't there better ways to add more insulation then "thickening the rafters"?
>After all, the roof is strong enough, you don't *need* the rafters as rafters,
>just something to put add insulation to.
        
        Yes, there is a better way, and it might be appropriate
        here.  It's called a RADIANT BARRIER.  First we need to
        understand that radiant barriers are not standard
        insulation.  A radiant barrier deals with radiant heat
        loss (reflecting it back into the heated area.)  I'll
        start a new note topic on Radiant barriers since I don't
        see it addressed anywhere else (I did a quick scan of
        titles and keywords.)
        
        In this case, removing the old roof and then putting
        down the radiant barrier (which comes in rolls) takes
        care of the heat loss problem with out adding another
        x inches to the roof line.  Then adding furring
        gives us the air barrier which can be vented at the
        eves and hip. Cover with board and shingles. Voil�!
        
        Comments?

    I'm about 5 weeks away from moving into my first house, and putting in
    soffit vents is my first project.  The home inspector recommended
    rectangular ones between every other pair of eves.
    
    I would think that cutting rectangular holes in a surface above your
    head, while standing on a ladder would be a MAJOR pain in the neck
    (literally!).  So, I'm thinking of putting in round ones instead, since
    I should be able to cut the holes with a drill.
    
    Yesterday at Grossman's, I saw some rectangular vents with 3 square
    openings in each.  It should be possible to make 3 circular holes, and
    then put the vent plate over them.
    
    Does anyone have comments on rectangular vs. circular vs. cheating by
    making circular holes for a rectangular vent?
    
    Thanks.
    -pd

    Holes is holes.  I had an attic insulated a few years ago with blown-in
    fiberglas and the contractors installed soffit vents by simply using
    a drill with hole saw attachment to make a few holes, then covering
    them with the rectangular screen gratings to keep the varmints out.

    I went through the same thing last summer. I had a book that gave
    an equation to figure out how much soffit ventilation you need for
    the size of your attic. I came out with 5, 2" round vents per side.
    With the rectangular ones, you can drill 3, 2" holes and then cover
    them up as in the last reply. What clinched it for me is when I
    saw a house in the neighborhood with all these round vents going
    around and it doesn't look to good. I didn't put any in the front
    of the house and put two per side on the other three. You can get
    the rectangular ones prepainted in white so if that's your trim
    color you don't have to paint.
    
    Tim
    

    All you need to care about is the square inches of opening; round,
    square, rectangular, or hexagonal, the air won't notice.  

    The best technique (and it don't look too bad) is to pull the soffit
    plywood off, rip it down by approx 2" and install a continuous soffit
    vent.
    
    Now you need ladder jacks, another ladder, and a staging plank.
    
    This along with a ridge vent (very easy to install [all you need
    is a circular saw]) makes for excellent ventilation.
    
    Ahh the joys of moving into a new home.  Here I am 15 years later
    with almost enough tools to do some of the jobs right.

    I don't think I'm ready to try putting a ridge vent in myself.  I'm not
    going to cut through a good roof to experiment.
    
    However, I think I can handle the soffit vents.  I realize that air
    will pass through a round hole as easily as a square one.  I guess the
    only issue is to make sure that I have enough actual area of
    ventilation.
    
    Does anyone know the largest size of round soffit vents?  Or, better
    yet, the largest size for which I can get a hole-cutting bit for my
    3/8" drill?
    
    The vents I saw at Grossman's yesterday were only about 2" in diameter.
    Also, they had no screw holes, but seemed to want to just be pushed
    into very snug fitting holes.  That seems hokey to me.
    
    Thanks.
    -pd

    I've not seen round ones that are larger than 2" (probably because
    its difficult to handle a large hole cutter with a hand drill).
    A press in fit is fine if the hole is snug.  Use a little caulking
    compound on the surface of the rim that meets the soffit if you're
    worried about them falling out.
    
    Bob

    They sell them in 3 and 4" sizes but like the last reply said
    it's not an easy hole cutter to work with. I've never seen a
    4" hole saw. I used a 4" one to vent the bathroom fan through
    the soffit but I used my scroll saw to cut the hole. And then,
    if you don't have a perfect hole, the vent will not stay in just
    by the little nipples on the side, I used caulk to glue it in place.
    
    Tim
    

    My house has five round vents each, front and back.  Home inspector
    felt they were not big enough.  He suggested that I trace the area
    of the rectangular (6x9) vent and drill lotsa holes within the
    rectangle.  He said this would  create enough extra air for my attic.
    
    Comment?
    
    Elaine

    Plenty of extra air.
    Sounds like the home inspector might have left something out, namely
    how to cover the holes. If you do a REAL good job of drilling lotsa
    little holes within the rectangle you MIGHT be able to insert the
    6x9 vent into the hole.
    If not, you can probably use something like screening to keep things
    other than air -insects, mice, ... - out of the attic
    
    
    					herb
    

    Re/ .18:  You can cover the holes with a regular rectangular soffit
    vent.  I saw some at Grossman's which don't have to be inserted into a
    rectangular hole.  They simply screw onto the soffit.
    
    On a related question, what, if anything, have people used to keep
    insulation from creeping in between the rafters and blocking the vents?
    I would imagine that pieces of very stiff screen, bowed and propped
    between the rafters would work pretty well.  Are there better and/or
    cheaper suggestions?

-mark

Does anyone know just how much area of soffit vents are needed per
unit of roof area?  Or is it per foot of eave?  And how about
ridge vents - same area as the soffit vents?

    I went through the soffit venting process a few months ago.
    
    I used 3" round, louvered vents (from Somerville Lumber -- available
    in up to 4" or 5" sizes, around $1.50-$2.00 each).
    
    Installation was to drill/cut a hole with a 3" hole saw, and then
    plug the vent into the hole.
    
    A standard 3/8" drill did NOT have enough power for the 3" hole
    saw -- I ended up renting a heavy duty industrial drill.  Instead
    of stalling, that drill would practically rip your arm off!
    
    The vents were installed every 16" -- between every pair of rafters.
    
    If you do this, be prepared for several days of nasy work (I installed
    90 of the stupid things).  Also, be sure to center the vents front
    to back in the soffit (I wasn't careful enough, and it doesn't look
    as good as it should).
    
    In any case, the previous owners had a fair amount of trouble with
    ice dams, but we made it through the winter with no trouble after
    installing the vents -- didn't use the heat tapes once!

    I'm putting in a whole house fan and in conjunction with this will
    be putting in a ridge vent and soffit vents.  Installation of the
    ridge vent seems pretty straight foward but I have a question about
    the soffit vents.  My house is a cape and the roof insulation pretty
    well fills the space between the rafters and inside ceiling.  So
    much so that it seems air movement from the soffit vents to the
    ridge vent would be pretty well restricted.  Is this a problem?
     If so, how do I get around it?
    
    George

    The house we're on the verge of buying uses styrofoam sheets that
    our inspector called "proper vents" to maintain the air flow to
    the soffit vents.  They're several feet long, a couple of inches
    narrower than the space between rafters, and they have a cross-section
    that looks like:
    
    		roof sheathing 
    	___				 ___
    	   \	air channel		/
    	    \__________________________/
    
    		interior of attic
    
    The idea is that they maintain an air channel from the soffit vents
    to a point above the attic floor insulation.
    
    Do they work?  Apparently not as well as they should.  The roof
    shows signs of humidity problems, and it's clear they've had ice
    dams.  The inspector says that the proper vents have been crushed
    against the roof sheathing by the insulation, thus restricting flow.
    His advice was to simply use a broom handle to reopen the air channel.
    If that doesn't work, I may consider a more permanent hack, such
    as fastening some dowels inside the proper vents to help them maintain
    their shape.
    
    Yet they seem like the right idea.  If I had to do it from scratch,
    I'd see if I could get a sheet metal place to create some vents
    in the same shape as the styrofoam ones.
    
       Gary

    proper vents work just fine.
    
    Some bozo crammed the insulation thinking he was doing a good job.
    He needn't have forced the insulation enough to break the styrofoam.
    
    Installed properly the proper vents are the way to go.
    

    
    Have gone thru a number of tasks related to the venting problems
    being discussed.
    
    Ridge vent..... Removed the layer of shingles along the roof ridge.
    set power saw depth to cut thru roof to supports. layed the
    vent on the roof ridge before cutting to double check the area to cut.
     I believe I left about a foot on each side. The Ridge "pole" was
    a 2x??  and I cut approx. 1 inch on each side of this. The cut pieces came
    up easy. I reshingled where necessary and then nailed the vent 
    and sealed the nail heads with tar. BE Careful not to cut too far on
    either side of the ridge beam. that is why I measured with the ridge vent in
    place before cutting. All in all wasn't too difficult.
    
       Soffits.... I bought an adjustable cutting tool and some 3" round
    soffits. tried a dry run cut on a piece of plywood. had some difficulty
    in cutting but was able to do so on ground. Got on my ladder and
    tried to cut. Because soffit was on an angle, and not much space
    available for the drill handle  the cutting bit would bind causing
    the drill to try to turn the operator holding it. After successfully
    putting in 2 soffits, and almost falling off the later about 5 times,
    I ripped out the soffit. took a piece of 1/4 plywood and cut 
    a strip about 3 inches wide in at covered it with  screeningand
    nailed it up. took less time to do that than to drill the 2 holes.
    less dangerous I might add.
    
      Venting.... Had a cathedral ceiling in my addition, wher all this
    roof work was being done. I used the channel vents described earlier
    and have had no problems to date. approx 3-4 yrs.  had 2 skylites
    put in( prior to the venting and insullation). One mus remember
    to put holes in the supports where the flow of air from the soffits to
    the ridge vent is prevented. this will allow the air to continue
    its circulation. I believe I put in a couple of 1" holes .
    

    I have the same problem but can't get to my attic and can only get
    behind the kneewall on one side of the upstairs (house is a cape).
    If I pull the inslulation to put in a vent i don't think I'll ever
    be able to get it back in.  Where I can get behind the kneewall I was 
    thinking of sliding something like 1" PVC pipe between the insulation and 
    roof to provide a soffit to ridge airway.  Whaddya think?  Will
    it work?  Since I can't get at the other side of the roof without
    cutting a door to the eaves (sure, maybe after the whole hose fan is 
    installed, the roof is reshingled, the floors are refinished, the
    stair wall is taken down, the kitchen cabinets are built and the
    bathroom is redone) is it sufficient to install soffit vents on
    one side of the roof /when I install a ridge vent?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    This is the question I have.
    
     I have a 1.5 story cape I had siding, new windows 
     and soffit vents put in last year.
     The house is still not breathing as it should,I went
     up into the crawl space last night to see if the soffit
     vents were open WELL I found insulation stuffed in the vents.
     And also in the pitch of the roof so the air will not flow
     through the rafters to the house vent. HOW do I see if the 
     air can get to the house vent,there's insulation every where...
    
    
    					steVen
     
    			   	 
    				  
    			           
             		            
    			     	      
    			    	       
    			    	      	 
    			    	      	 
    			   	      	  
    		    	      	    
                                         
                                           
                                          
                                            
                                             
    
    
     
    

    According to the directions that came with the ridge vent I installed,
    you have to be sure to have enough soffit ventilation so the air
    flow will be up from the soffits and out the ridge.  Apparently,
    if there is not enough soffit ventilation and the wind is right
    (across the ridge), sufficient vacuum can get created on the leeward 
    side of the ridge vent so that rain gets sucked in from the other
    (windward) side.  The directions gave some minimum recommended
    amount of soffit ventilation that should keep that from happening.
    If you can get enough pipes in to provide at least that minimum
    amount of ventilation area I would think you'd be okay.  

Re: .6

Disclaimer: I'm a beginner homeowner and don't know much about anything.
	    (But that never stops me from saying anything foolish :-)

Your plan of using PVC pipes for venting doesn't sound right to me.
The idea is to ventilate the air trapped in the attic so that moisture
and heat get carried away so that the house remains cooler in the summer
and snow won't melt so quickly in the winter.  Venting with PVC pipes
means you'll draw air from under the soffit and vent them through the
ridge vent, leaving the air in the attic unchanged.

I've seen in new constructions that they use a styrofoam type plate
to route the air from the soffit to the ridge by preventing the passage
from being blocked by insulation.  The idea seem strange to me as
I think it'd only cool the small sections of roofs directly above the
soffits.  (They don't have these plates between all the roof rafters, only
between the rafters that lead to a soffit vent underneath.)

Perhaps someone can explain such practice?

/tom

re .7  maybe I didn't explain clearly enough what my house is like.
     It's a cape so the arrangement is this:    
				/\
    			       /  \
      			      /	   \  <---roof
    			     /      \
    			    /  ____\ <----Pipe
	 bedroom ceiling----> /    \\ \
    			  /  /      \\ \
    			 /   |      |   \<- eave area
    		     __	/    |      |    \__
    
The pipes would be put between the rafters.  One end would extend into
    the crawl space area, the other into the eave area.  They wouldn't
    go all the way to the ridge vent or all the way to the soffit. So,
    air exchange should be all right.  I think my only problem is, as
    pointed out earlier, getting enough vent area to satisfy the needs
    of the ridge vent and a whole house fan.  Maybe I should go with
    2" pipe.

	FWIW...

	I don't  know  if  it's  been  stated  before,  but  as a hint in
	determining the areas needed for proper attic venting, I used the
	following formula.
	
	Multiply the square foot area of the attic by 1.5;  Disregard the
	square-footage and use the number as square inches instead.  This
	represents the minimum venting area you need.   Divide by two and
	you have the areas for the ridge and  soffit  vents.    Typically
	ridge vents offer about 10 sq in per linear  foot.   Soffit vents
	should show what their areas are for the rectangular ones.
	
	For my ranch, 24'X40' I used 30' of ridge vent and 8 soffit vents
	between the  front  and  back.

	
	Chris

    
    I'm not sure whether this should go here or in note #170, but here
    goes:
    
    I own a 4-year-old split, which has a ridge vent and soffit vents.
    We've got R-19 walls, R-38 ceilings -- the ceiling insulation is
    blown-in rock wool, except around the living room's cathedral ceiling,
    where we have unfaced 6-inch fiberglas.
    
    We have the little styrofoam "thingies" between the rafters to keep
    the soffit vents open, so there should be airflow, but the attic
    seens to get _awfully_ hot;  the rest of the house seems to hold
    heat longer because of this.
    
    Sure, sure.  I know it's about 100 degrees out.  I just didn't think
    my house should be around 90 last night when it was 80 outside,
    and all the windows were open.
    
    Now come the questions:
    
    Should the ridge vent be doing a better job of keeping the attic
    from getting so God-awful hot?  I looked at the installation, it
    seems to have been done right.
    
    Would it be wise to invest in a gable fan, to try to accelerate
    the airflow (or am I asking for trouble, going to suck in the elements
    through the ridge vent?)
    
    Might a whole-house fan be part of the solution?
    
    Thanx,
    
     -- John

    You're depending on heat convection to move air.  The soffit and
    ridge vents are just vents.  They'll work great for keeping moisture
    from forming in most cases but it doesn't mean it won't get hot
    up there.  You can put in the "house fan" to help force the heat
    out, hopefully you have enough venting for the forced airflow.
    
    I don't think it'd be wise to suck in the elements either.

    My parents have a whole house fan and manage to keep day time temps
    around 65 by running the fan all night and then shutting it down
    during the day and closing the windows to keep the cool in.
    BTW- this is colorado where it drops to 50-60 at night after 80+
    during the day.                                                 

    I have a cape with full shed dormer and would like to install a
    Ridge vents.  I've looked all over and have not seen ridge vents
    on this style cape.  Could it be that the dormer pitch is not 
    sloped enough for a ridge vent?  Has anyone seen ridge vents on
    this style house?
    
    Thanks,
    Guido

    re: .15
    
    Ridge vents are not terribly common on any cape style, but, there
    is no reason that you can't put one on as long as the pitch on your
    dorment is sufficient to drain away from the ridge.
    
    I have put ridge vents on ranches and such with pitches as low as
    4.5 which is a little as you want around NE. 
    
    Alan

    
    	RE: .15
    
    	Matter of cost too.  Ridge vents cost more for material and
    	require more labor to put in.

    RE .17 Matter of cost? 
    
    Insulation costs money and requires labor to install but that doesn't
    stop people from installing it. What's your point?
    
    Cb 

    If you put in ridge vents, you also need a minimum area of soffit
    vents, and a clear passage between them, so the wind blowing over
    the ridge doesn't create a vacuum on the lee side of the ridge
    vent and pull rain through (and into the attic) from the windward
    side.  The instructions that came with the ridge vents I installed
    last year went into some detail about this.

    
    
    	re: .18
    
    	Yea, and some people put in batt, some blow it in, and some
    	put in styrofoam sheets.  And they all cost different amounts.
    
    	The point is that it is cheaper to put in the classic attic
    	vents on the sides of a house vs. the ridge vent and accom-
    	anying soffit vents.  Not only in material but in labor as
    	well.  It's not a question of venting, it's how do you do it.
    

    Re. .20
    
    So..... Ho does this cost analysis apllly to .15 question? Which
    was, why doesn't he see ridge vents on capes with full shed dormers?
    
    Cb

    
    	I suspect that contractors, being business people also,
	would install the most cost effective unit.  Side vents
	cost less, and save time on labor, but they also do an
	effective job of ventilating the attic area.  So from the
	contractors viewpoint, the side vents make the most sense.

	Since many houses are built before they are sold, and/or
	most homeowners don't care *how* a house is vented as long
	as it is vented properly, I think this is a valid reason
	as to why you don't see ridge vents more often, on *any*
	type of house.  There certainly is no reason why they
	*couldn't* be installed, so you have to consider *why*
	they weren't installed.

    I don't believe that side vents do an effective job of ventilating
    the attic area.  I haven't seen a house yet that has sice vents
    with enough cross section to do the job.  They also have louvers
    which severely inhibit air flow.  At least mine do.  There is also
    a hot pocket of air in the top 2 feet or so of the attic.  With
    ridge vents, you put natural hot air rising forces to work.  To
    be effective, I believe the side vents must have a fan.
    
    Since I installed ridge vents, I've noticed nothing but beneficial
    effects.  I also put in proper vents and a continuous soffit vent.
    I believe that's the way it should have been done in the first place.
    I do not believe it's a money decision.  The ridge vents are far
    superior to side vents.
    
    I believe that it's only a money decision when the builder doesn't
    care about the quality and is just saving pennies.

    Re. previous...
    
    The question asked by 182.15 (Please re-read it), is not about what's
    more cost effective or better  BUT.... WHY HASN'T THE AUTHOR SEEN ANY
    CAPES WITH FULL SHED DORMERS AND RIDGE VENTS. 

    I believe he was looking for a technical got-cha, a reason why you
    SHOULDN'T install a ridge vent, such as "You shouldn't put ridge vents
    on capes with full shed dormers because the roof pitch is too low", etc
    (I just made that up, don't take it as fact). 

    As for ridge/soffit vents vs. "classic attic" gable vents I myself
    firmly believe that the ridge/soffit vent combination is far superior
    to the other and worth what little price difference there is, IF there
    even is a price difference. Ridge vents can be had for $1 - $1.50 per
    foot and they are EASY to install. 

    Cb

    
    
    	FWIW, every house on my street (including capes with shed dormers)
    has ridge vents installed.
    
    Jim H.
    

 
	RE: .24

	I don't need to re-read .15, I got the message the first time.
	The technical advice he was seeking was answered in .16. 
	My reply was intended as another possible reason why *some*
	houses may not have ridge vents, cape or otherwise.  I clearly
	stated in .22 that there was no reason why it couldn't be done.

	I never said gable vents were better than ridge vents, and I 
	never said ridge vents were *hard* to put in.  I said they
	require more labor.  Labor means money.  And money is the
	bottom line for many contractors.  That means that unless the
	potential homeowner *really* cares about it, and most likely
	is willing to pay extra for the ridge vents, or unless the
	contractor is really partial to ridge vents, their going to
	get gable vents.  Ridge vents may be superior to gable vents,
	but the fact is they still do the job satisfactorily, so they
	are still sold and put in.

	Try about $2.50 per foot for the ridge vents, not including the
	end caps.  Don't forget the soffit vents, about $2.00 per ten
	feet for continuous.

Hi there carpentry fans...
            
            My home is an  expanded  ranch (sold to me as a "Cape") and I
         need some real help!   The  upstairs  two rooms are worthless in
         the  summer months.  Since Ridge  Vents  appear  to  be  a  good
         solution, how do I modify the roof  to  allow the hot air in the
         kneewall area to travel, and provide ventilation, up the rafters
         to the vent?  And, will this keep the living area (LA) cool?

                              ^
                             . .
                            .   .
                           .     .
                          .       .   �  How do I modify the EXISTING roof
                         .         .  �  to get air from kneewall area to
                        .    L A    . �  the Ridge Vent???
                       .|           |.
                      . |           | . 
                     .  |           |  . 
                        -------------
                        |           |
                        |           |
                        |           |
                        |    L A    |     (Not a scale drawing!!)
                        -------------
                        
    Thanks... Brian

    As has been said many times before, insulate and ventilate.
    
    Specifically, the kneewalls and the floor behind the kneewall (ceiling
    of the first floor) should be well insulated. Now, the key question
    is "What is the ceiling of the second floor?"  Does the room have
    a cathedral ceiling (the way your picture shows) or is there a
    normal ceiling with a small "attic" space above?
    
    In either case use propa vents (styrofoam channels) in each rafter
    bay from the kneewall to the highest point of the ceiling. In the
    case of the cathedral ceiling this will be to the ridge. Fill each
    rafter bay with insulation between the propa vents and the ceiling.
    If you have a small attic space, insulate above the ceiling NOT
    in the rafter bays. 
    
    To ventilate install soffit vents (preferably continuous) and ridge
    vents. This is the best you can do with just insulation and 
    non-mechanical ventilation.
    
    Alan

	re .27

	Need more information.  The insulate/ventilate solution requires 
	a lot of tradeoffs with a cathedral ceiling,especially existing 
	construction.  

	Is the ceiling a full cathedral ceiling or does it have collar ties
	and vaulted ceiling?  What are the dimensions of the angled part
	of the ceiling?

	Is the ceiling/roof made with stick built 2x construction or 
	scissor trusses?  How large of a cavity is there between the kneewall
	area and the ridge?  What type and how much insulation do you have?

	Retrofitting styrofoam channels into a long cramped area is not 
	easy.  The air channel should be outside of the insulation on the 
	roof side where all the shingle nails are:-)

	Brian

Hi,
   The ceiling is only ~6' high. The knee walls are about 3.5'. There
         may be collar ties but they are not low enough to allow
         ventilation on the ends, therefore I would like to try the
         'propa' vents. My real question is, are they constructed in
         such a way as to allow me to install them from the outside of
         the roof, ie., the peak?
            
            The kneewall area is fully insulated. So is the roof. It
         just gets too hot in the living area since there is no
         ventilation of the roof area from the kneewall to the peak of
         the roof. Got enough to go on now?
            
            Brian

    
     I am in the process of having Vinyl siding installed and I thought
    to have a type of vent installed also. Could someone clarify to
    me where the different types of vents are actually located on the
    house ? I was considering the type of vent that is located right
    under the top peak of the roof " ^ ". Is this a gable vent ???
    
                       Mark

Around a month or so I had a MAJOR leak in my attic.  We had a severe rainstorm
and water literally was pouring into the house through the louver.  I've been
meaning to look more closely at it (or at least write about it in here), but
I've been too busy with other things.

Anyhow, let me explain some more details.  I've added on a jog to the existing
roof of a 2 story colonial so that there are actually two roofs, a main one and
a shorter one as such: 

				/\
			      / +-+\
			    /   | |  \
			  /     +-+ /  \
			/         /      \
                      /         /          \
                     |          |          |
                     |          |          |
                     |          |          |
                     |          |          |
                     |          |          |
		
I've removed the side wall where the jog joins AND in the main house removed
an entire ceiling (to make it catherdral) so that most of the attic is exposed
into the house.  

An earlier note about ridge vents and lack of eave vents causing a partial
vacuum and sucking in rain perked my interest. Is it possible that by having
MAJOR ventilation (caused by all the construction) that there's no backpressure
at all and the wind is simply blowing rain into the attic? 

This is about the only thing I can think of that may have caused this
phenomina.  At first I thought that maybe the rain was splashing off the
shorter roof into the peak vent, but it's a good 4 or more feet about that
roof. We've had heavy rains since (sans wind) and no leaks.  I'm going to be
putting up sheetrock in another month or so and I want to get this thing
resolved first. 

Any thoughts? 

-mark

    re: .31
    
    Yes.
    
    Gable vents are placed in a wall, like a window, at the highest
    point of the gable wall. They are inappropriate for certain rooflines;
    flat, mansard and hip. But, are appropriate for traditional 
    peaked (gabled), bow, gambrel or steep shed roofs.
    
    Ridge vents are mounted on top of the ridge of the roof.
    
    Soffit vents (which are used in combination with ridge vents) are
    installed underneath the overhang or eaves in the "soffit". These
    are applicable to most all types of roof.
    
    Turbine vents are installed in the middle of the roof and are most
    applicable to flat and low pitched roofs.
    
    Alan

    
    	You say it doesn't happen in every rain storm so I tend to think
    the design of the addition is creating a vacuum on the leeward side
    of the house during certain types of wind.  This could be caused
    by the wind blowing either across or up, the roof, on the right
    side of your diagram.  Are the roof lines of the house and the ad-
    dition at the same height, and is it possible that maybe something
    else accidently happened to that area during construction that might
    be contributing to the occurance?  You may want to try siliconing
    the perimeter of the vent to make sure no gaps or anything else
    like that may have occured during the construction.  That way you'll
    know for sure that the water is coming *into* the vent and not from
    around it.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  These topics were found
using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you may find other notes relating
to this subject by examining the directory yourself. 

If for any reason, after examining these notes, you wish to continue the 
discussion here, send me mail.

DCL [Moderator]

    Roof vents are like turbine vents without the turbine.  Typically
    they have a low, flat, square or circular cap.  They should be mounted
    as close to the ridge as possible, and usually on the back side
    of the roof, for appearance's sake.  They can be used on any type
    of roof.
    
    I'm not really sure what advantages roof vents have over ridge vents,
    if any, but roof vents are fairly common.  We have four in our cape.
    
       Gary

>    Soffit vents (which are used in combination with ridge vents) are
>    installed underneath the overhang or eaves in the "soffit". These
>    are applicable to most all types of roof.

    Soffit vents are used in combination with all types of vents. You need
    a low vent in the attic for the air to enter (soffit vent) and a high
    vent for the air to exit (ridge, gable, turbine, ...). 

This topic has been re-opened by the moderator at the author's request.

Changed the title to clarify the subject matter.  For "peak vent" in .0,
read "gable vent".

	I'm just getting ready to insulate my sunroom and seem to have run
   into a bit of a puzzlement regarding venting the cathedral ceiling.
   Basically I have very little continuous path available from the sofit vent
   area into the attic. Due to the the skylights and gable area over the 
   sliding glass door I end up with only 4 areas about 4" to 6" wide. The
   rest of the space between rafters has some kind of blocking at some
   point to prevent air flow from sofit to attic. 
        My question is what might I do to vent the blocked areas, or
   should I even bother? I thought about using 'prop-a-vent' and then drill
   some cross holes between roof rafters to allow air circulation cross wise.
   	Any thoughts?

	I've included a diagram for a better picture of whats going on.

                                                   
|**|||     ||     |||**|||     ||    ||     ||     |||**|||     ||     |||**||
|**|||     ||     |||**|||     ||    ||     ||     |||**|||     ||     |||**||
|**||+-----++-----+||**|||     ||    ||     ||     |||**||+-----++-----+||**||  
|**||+------------+||**|||     ||    ||     ||     |||**||+------------+||**||
|**|||            |||**|||     ||    ||     ||     |||**|||            |||**||
|CC|||            |||CC|||     ||    ||     ||     |||CC|||            |||CC||
|LL|||  SKYLIGHT  |||LL|||     ||    ||     ||     |||LL|||  SKYLIGHT  |||LL||
|EE|||            |||EE|||     ||    ||     ||     |||EE|||            |||EE||
|AA|||            |||AA|||     ||    ||     ||     |||AA|||            |||AA||
|RR|||            |||RR|||     ||    ||     ||     |||RR|||            |||RR||
|  ||+------------+||  |||     ||    ||     ||     |||  ||+------------+||  ||
|PP||+-----++-----+||PP|||     ||    ||     ||     |||PP||+-----++-----+||PP||
|AA|||     ||     |||AA||+-----++----++-----++-----+||AA|||     ||     |||AA||
|SS|||     ||     |||SS||+=========================+||SS|||     ||     |||SS||
|SS|||     ||     |||SS||+=========================+||SS|||     ||     |||SS||
|AA|||     ||     |||AA||+-----++-----------++-----+||AA|||     ||     |||AA||
|GG|||     ||     |||GG|||    //   GABLED    \\    |||GG|||     ||     |||GG||
|EE|||     ||     |||EE|||   //     AREA      \\   |||EE|||     ||     |||EE||
|**|||     ||     |||**|||  // FOR SLIDING DOOR\\  |||**|||     ||     |||**||


		Thanks...

				...Dave

    I had what seems to be the same situation at my house in Maine -
    with enough water coming in to stain a wall on the first floor.
     When I went up and checked the vent, it only had three louvers,
    which left a lot of space for rain to get blown in. I added some
    additional louvers (and attached the bug screen, which the installer
    had left hanging there). Haven't had the problem again, knock on
    wood. Apparently the wind direction, etc., had to be just right
    for the rain to be forced in, since the same set up on the other
    side of the house had no problem.
    
    Joseph
    

    Re: venting cathedral ceiling.
    
    I have a similar situation and when the building inspector checked out
    the rough framing, his only comments were to provide good ventilation
    using propa-vents and to drill some holes thru the rafters above and
    below the sky-lights to provide a continuous path for the air to move
    from the soffit to the ridge. He suggested three 1" holes thru each
    rafter into the adjancent rafter bay. 
    
    I haven't done mine yet, It sounds easy, BUT, its going to be fun
    drilling some of those holes in tight quarters thru 3 2x10s.

    Charly

>    I haven't done mine yet, It sounds easy, BUT, its going to be fun
>    drilling some of those holes in tight quarters thru 3 2x10s.

Fortunately, the width of the 2x10s will allow you to drill at a good-sized
angle, and (unlike holes for electrical cables) you don't have to worry about 
staying 1�" in from the edges. 

The bad news is that the holes will provide passageways for any insects or 
rodents that take up residence in there.

Unfortunately, the vent seems to be in fine shape.  Therefore, I fear that if I
do nothing that some day I'll get rain in again.  I don't know how unique the
wind patterns were that day so I don't know what the odds are of it reoccuring.
One thing I thought since entering the note is that I may have also been getting
some water in where the new roof butted up to the side of the house.  I did use
copper step flashing, but I wonder if it's possible for wind to actually blow
rain in through the flashing since I didn't have any Tyvek (or any other 
material) overlapping the flashing since it was an existing wall.  The best I
could do was jam the flashing up under the clapboards (not an easy task).

-mark

    
    	Well, if the cause is as I stated in .1 then I would imagine
    the chances of the wind being just right, are probably pretty high
    but then again, once is too much.  I wonder if you could add another
    vent, but inverted, over the existing one, maybe stagering the vanes
    a little bit so that any water that comes in could drain out, or
    drilling holes where applicable so that the water could drain.
    
    
    		|
    		|\/
    		|\/
    		|\/
    		|\/
    		|\/
    		|\/
                 
                 ^^
   original one /  \______second one
    

    	You could add a little roof to the top if you wanted so that
    the rain would stay out of the inverted vanes, or a better idea
    would be to take off the original vent and invert the first one
    with the outside one installed in the normal way.  Not sure if
    this is feasible in your situation, but at least it would keep
    the rain out no matter what direction it came from.

    re: .6
    
    Wouldn't those extra vanes also obstruct the flow of air out of
    the attic?  After all, that's what the vents are for.
    
    Elaine

    
    	No, I don't see why that would happen if you lined up the vents
    properly since if the vanes are symmetrical then so are the spaces
    between them.  If you were to stagger the vanes and there was not
    a significant perimeter body to the unit, then you might end up
    obstructing the air flow.

sounds interesting.  in fact, if I do obstruct some air flow it's probably not
the end of the world since I'm planning on putting in a ridge vent anyway (but
that's another subject).

-mark

    I'm sure that there is another "propa vent" note somewhere in here,
    but this is the closest that I could find.
    
    I went out to bye some yesterday -- "propa vents", although that
    isn't the trade name that Moores carries.  I was suprised to find
    that they come only in 22 inch widths, separable into two 11inch
    pieces.  My rafters are 16" oc and I was expecting to get 14.5inch
    vents.
    
    Why am I doing this?  Well, the builders that insulated the house
    naturally stuffed the soffit vents full of fiberglass bats.  Over
    the summer I pulled out a lot of it, to improve the air-flow.  On
    Tuesday night my pipes froze over the kitchen ceiling  -- even though
    they are under a foot of insulation.  I figured that I must have
    allowed a draft in from the soffit that was blowing under the
    insulation.  Rather than just plugging up the vent again, I thought
    that some 2' peices of  propa vent where the rafters meet the joists
    whould provide the venting that is required but still allow me too
    insulate the edges of the ceiling properly.
    
    I was dissapointed not to be able to get the right width and maximize
    my airflow under the roof sheathing.  Should I care?
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    You should care.
    
    They do come in 16" widths!!  (actually 14.5" to fit between rafters
    16" on center)
    
    Even Grossmans carries 'em

    While looking for something else I found the "other" propa vent note --
    587.*  I added the additional keyword to it. 
                                                
    I went to Grossman's in Nashua, and they said that, yes, they keep
    the 16" propa-vent -- but that they were out of stock.  I'm still
    looking...
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    The people before me (and probably some of the people before them) 
    put insulation in the air space along the roof line (from the unheated 
    attic all the way to the end of the soffit.  Now the problem is, how 
    do I get it out?
                                          
    In most of the spaces it is rockwool, but above one redone room they
    have stuffed a double layer of fiberglass (with two foil vapor barriers
    no less). 
    
    The distance from the floor to the soffit is over 6 feet, so it
    is not like I can just reach in and pull it out. Also, in trying
    to get the fiberglass batts out, it just tears because it has been
    really stuffed in!
    
    The reason for my doing this is to install soffit vents, and improve 
    the ventilation.  It couldn't be any worse!
    
    Has anyone gone through this problem?  What did you do?  Or what
    can someone recommend?
    
    Thanks, 
    Art				
    				      

Might try a shop-vac for the rockwool.  Some form of home-made giant tweezers
(or a bent coat hanger) could help for the fiberglass.

Bob

    I would try a garden rake.

    You may find that a garden rake is not the right size to fit between
    your joists.  Built a rake out a piece of scrap wood cut to the
    distance between your joists and a long pole.  Put a screw through
    the scrap and into the end of the pole.   A nail is likely to pull
    out after a few rakes.  Some braces from the edge of the scrap to
    the pole will make it more durable.  
    
    Attempt at picture to follow:

		|    
	    	|\			Pole
    scrap --->  | \  <----Brace             |
    		|  \			    v
    screw --->  +--------------------------------------
    		|  /
    		| /
	    	|/
		|    

some type of claw arrangement on the end of a pole sounds like the best 
you're gonna do.  get a clean suit and do it when it's still winter to keep 
down the sweat.  but one last idea first:  could you get those styrofoam 
vents made for that purpose and slip them in between the insulation and the 
roof?  they are about 12 to 16" wide and an inch or 2 in depth.  i don't 
think you need one between every rafter, maybe every other one.  

craig

    
    RE: .18
    
    If you have to cut holes for the soffit vents anyways, then push
    it back into the attic with a piece of 1x4 or something.  If you
    have the vents already, see if they can be removed.  If you can't
    do either, then bite the bullet and get grubby (and itchy)!  You
    may want to try a sickle to pull the stuff from the inside.  The
    type of sickle which is about 3' long, with about a 1' long blade
    at the end.  If none of this works, then I'd just get out whatever
    is possible and push the rest through, put in the propa-vents (each
    cavity) and then put some new insulation.
    

    It seems that everyone is confirming the method that I had first
    considered, that is, some type of raking device.  I was hoping that
    there might have been more of a high-tech solution.
    
    I haven't put in the soffit vents yet, so what I may end up doing
    is to first rake up to the attic whatever I can, cur the vent holes,
    then pull down whatever may be left.
    
    I'm getting itchy just thinking about it...
    
    Thanks everyone,
    
    Art 

    Let me understand. You are saying that the entire triangular shaped
    area formed by the soffit is stuffed with insulation?
    
    People are giving you the same hints they gave me.  If your roof
    is a low pitch, like a ranch, you might just have to crawl in there
    and grab it with a gloved hand and shove it into a large trash bag,
    just to get it out of the way.
    
    There has to be somewhere to rake it to.  You also need to get close
    enough to get leverage on the rake.
    
    Elaine                                             

    You want a hi-tech solution?  8^) Well, here is  one.    Get  a  vacuum
    cleaner.  Put all the extension tubes on the end of the hose.  Now, rig
    up a nozzle for the end which is porous, and the pores are too small to
    let  the  insulation  get up the hose.  (For example, put window screen
    over the  end  of  the  upholstery  brush  that  comes  with the vacuum
    cleaner.) Turn the  vacuum  on,  and  when  you touch the nozzle to the
    insulation it will stick to it.  Pull the insulation out of the soffit,
    disconnect the hose from the  extension  tube to release the insulation
    (or turn of the vac).
    
    If  the  suction of your home vac is too  weak  to  be  able  pull  the
    insulation out, use a shop vac to get increased suction or increase the
    contact area of the nozzle.
    

    Enjoy,
    
    gjd

    Have you considered pulling down the soffet?  This would "automatically"
    remove the insulation.  You could then rip the soffet boards to
    a narrower width, and install a continuous soffet vent.  (I installed 
    the circular soffet vents last year -- nasty job -- should have just 
    pulled down the boards.

    .26 is not only high-tech, it's also elegant:  it combines the
    claustrophobia of an attic and the itchiness of insulation with
    the deafening whine of a shop vac!

    Re -.1  ..    But that's the charm of it, you see. The added misery
    turns the exercise  into  a   well  rounded  and  typically
    representative  home improvement/repair project. :^) 
    
    Kind regards,
    
    gjd
    
    
    

    re:  several of the previous...
    
    Well, I put together a rake-type appliance last night & may give
    it a try tonight.  Have not been too motivated for this project.
    Any wonder why?
    
    I will have my shop-vac ready for the high-tech solution as well.
    I'm sure that between the two of them I will be more than frustrated!
    
    Art

Looking for those with ridge vent DIY experience.  Can I cut one in half, the
loooong way, to install just on the back pitch of our roof?  I'm convinced that
a ridge vent is the best way to ventilate, but I don't care for the way they
look.  Even those that you can shingle over are just too ... I don't know ...
obvious for my taste.

I was thinking that putting 1/2 of one on just the back pitch of our roof would
be practically as effective as a complete, normally-installed one.  If viewed
from the front, the roof line, once it's shingled over, would keep its clean
line, and who cares what the back looks like.

I know cutting one in half (I imagine it's a fairly dense (but thin?) nylon
or fiberglass or something) will be labor intensive, but ...

Nope.  A purchased ridge vent looks like this (end view, flattened out for VT 
graphics:)

		       __________________
		      /			 \
		     /_ _	       _ _\
		         \	      /
		----------`	     '----------

The vent area is on the sheltered horizontal undersides, to keep the rain out.
If you cut it in half, then you have just a wide open hole for rain to come in.

I have, however, once seen a design for a home-built ridge vent that would do 
what you want.  You said you didn't mind a little labor. :^)  Get some 2' 
lengths of 2x4 and scab them onto the rafters, extending out toward the back of 
the roof.  Roof over the top, and put screening on the underside.  If your roof 
has a steep pitch you may have to use 2x6 and/or undercut the overhang to make 
sure the screened opening is well sheltered from wind-driven rain.  Here's a 
picture of the basic idea.  Tilt your head sideways to the right to look at it, 
a VT has no way to draw gently sloping lines:

			       \	/\
				\      /  \
				 \    /    \ Back
				  \  / \    \
Shingles on back roof up to here - \/   |    \
				        |     \
				      Screen  /
				    	     / --- Shingles right over the top
					    /
					   /
					  /
					 /
					/
				       /  Front
				      /
Paul

If the vent area is where my x is, that's all I'd need.  If I sliced the
boughten ridge vent at "A", secured it along point (line) "A" to the actual
roof sheathing ("r"), (and maybe bend some over the front), shingled over the
front only ("s"), I'd still have my venting - out the back of the roof only.
                               
                       ssssssssss
                      s A_________
                     s /r         \
                    s /r        _x_\
                   s /r        /
                  s  r        '
                 s  r       r  \ s
                s  r         r  \ s
               s  r           r  \ s

Paul, your home-built idea, while attractively masochistic, has me confused.
What's "scab"?  Where's the gap/slot in the roof to let heat out?

The vent area is where your x is, but the problem would be attaching the 
shingles over the top of the vent.  You can't nail the shingles into the sheet 
aluminum or vinyl.  And if you just leave them there unnailed, the wind will 
rip them off.

Sorry on the terminology.  Scab just means to nail the 2x4 onto the side of the 
existing rafter.  The home-built version essentially is exactly the same as 
your VT drawing, except that the part over the top is covered with normal roof 
sheathing, and the shingles can be nailed directly to it.  Every surface in the 
drawing I made has plywood sheathing on it, except the underside where I have 
the pointer to "screen" - the same place where your x is.  That is the gap/slot 
for the air to escape, and is covered only by screening.

If you're still confused, call me @DTN 381-1194, or stop by my office (you've 
been before).

Paul

	When the builders put the ridge vents on a structure behind my
       house, I noticed that it has the same color as the shingling. I
       believe builders call these 'shingle over' ridge vents for obvious
       reasons. They are visible from both sides of the roof, but all
       you see is a black area about 1" above the roof at the ridge.

       If you can't come up with an idea from Paul, check your local
       lumberyard and ask about these vents... I don't know how it's
       done, but I sure wish they were available when I did my roof.

roof vents that are covered with shingles get my vote - and that's what I 
used on my roof.  however, I believe the author rejected that approach due to
asthetics.

-mark

re .39
Yes, .40 has it right.  The shingle-over vents are better-looking than the
standard, but I don't like even _their_ looks.  Just me, I guess.

I'll keep looking (I'll get back to you, Paul).

    re: .39
    
    That doesn't sound like a shingle-over vent.  If you were going
    to put shingles over it, why would the color of the vent matter?
    
    I've seen some good shingling-over jobs, and some that stand out,
    ruining the even slope line of the roof.  Personally, I prefer a
    ridge vent that's not shingled over, but is in a color that complements
    the roof, especially if it matches the trim on the house.  That
    way, the ridge vent looks like just another accent, along with the
    trim.
    
       Gary

    Has anyone ever heard of a new type of ridge vent that comes in a roll?
    Judging from the brochure, it appears to be a coarse mesh or foam, from
    some synthetic fiber, which will allow air out but won't let insects
    in.  There's a nylon backing to hold the shape.  Weatherproofing
    is provided by shingling over it.
    
    The advantages seem to be low profile -- it's about half the height
    of conventional rigid ridge vents -- and convenience (to the
    contractor).  It doesn't need to be cut to length, and you can butt
    pieces together if you use up one roll and need to start another.
    The disadvantages that I can see are all open questions.  Will it
    survive the compression of snow, is it really insect proof, and
    will it really provide the advertised ventilation area (18 sq inches
    per lineal foot), given that it's going to be covered by shingles.
    The literature also suggests that it depends on external winds to
    set up a venturi effect to pull air out of the attic, but I'd expect
    that to be a problem with any ridge vent.
    
    If I remember, I'll bring in the brochure so that I can post more
    specifics and the brand name.
    
       Gary

    re .18 and -1
    
    Well, I pulled as much insulation as I could from the attic side 
    using a rake and a curved curtain rod (which sometimes worked better).  
    Got about 4-5 feet down. The rest would have to be gotten to from the
    outside.
    
    Since it took me two months to get the time to just complete that 
    half of it, I looked in to having someone complete the task of 
    pulling the insulation out from the outside of the house.  There is
    also a related need to have the soffits and decorative moulding
    repaired.
    
    Well, the carpenter thought that it would be extremely expensive for
    him to remove all the moulding and stuff to get to the airflow to even
    get at the insulation.  He said that if I did not know of there being 
    an ice problem on the roof, that I might just as well save my money!
    
    That's nice of him to not want to just take my $$, but is the advice
    worthwhile?  Should I see what the future brings in terms of ice on the
    roof?  I have only been in the house a year, but from looking at the
    roof there is no noticeable damage from previous years.
    
    Thanks,
    
    /Art
    

    Here are more details about Roll Vent (a registered trademark).
    
    It's marketed by Benjamin Obdyke, Inc., Warminster, PA, with their
    sales office in Cincinnati, OH.
    
    They claim "Roll Vent attic ventilation system is the only
    self-contained ridge vent on a roll.  This space age material is
    a durable, two layer composite consisting of a NYLON-POLYESTER,
    non-woven, non-wicking fabric, heat bonded to a compression-resistant,
    open nylon matting of three-dimensional construction."
    
    It's 0.8 inches thick, about 10 1/4 inches wide, comes in 20 and
    50 foot rolls, provides 18 sq. in. per linear foot of Net Free Area,
    and is in compliance with a number of nationally recognized model
    codes, including CABO, BOCA, SBCCI, and ICBO  (and you thought DEC
    acronyms and abbreviations were bad).
    
    We're going to go with it.  I figure that if it doesn't work, it
    won't be too much trouble to put up a traditional ridge vent.  Since
    the room underneath it won't be finished for some time, we'll have
    plenty opportunity to make sure it doesn't leak before ruining
    furnishings.
       
       Gary

    
>    Got about 4-5 feet down. The rest would have to be gotten to from the
    
    Huh?  4-5 deep soffits?  What kind of house is this?
    
    Air circulation is also important in the summer.  It will help keep
    the house cooler.  You can always cut holes and then cover them
    with soffit vents.

    re: .32
    
    Probably a cape, but maybe a gambrel.  It's not that the soffits
    are 4-5 feet wide, front to back.  It's that the soffits are probably
    around the height of the floor of the upper story, so that there's a 4-5
    foot channel from the soffit area (the kneewall space) to the attic.
    
       Gary

    re:-1
    
    It's a village colonial.  Maybe I didn't state it correctly, but the
    space I was referring to goes from the attic to the soffit area.  If it
    is called kneewall, then I guess I learned something.  Thanks.
    
    But is it worth maybe $2-3K to fix the problem?
    
    Thanks,

    This past weekend I installed propa vents throughout my attic. 
    If you looked down at my roof from an airplane it would look like
    a cross.  That is, there are four valleys.  Looking at the roof
    from the inside you see that the 2 X 4 rafters run from the peak
    of the roof (ridge) down to the valleys.  The rafters are 16" O.C..
    At the bottom of the valleys, the space between the rafters enter
    into the kneewalls and thus receive "fresh outside air".  However,
    the other rafters butt against the 2 X 4 valley and don't receive
    air.  By the way, I have furred out all the rafters with 2 X 4's
    and therefore the rafters are actually 7" deep.  I drilled 1" holes
    (one for each rafter space) to allow the air from the adjoining
    rafters (which extend into the kneewalls).  However, one 1" hole
    feeds it's adjacent rafter but the first hole in effect has to feed
    all of the remaining rafters.  Granted, the space gets smaller and
    smaller as you go up the valley but is a 1" hole enough?  I don't
    want to drill anymore for fear of weakening the rafters.  For excess
    moisture to escape can I have a 1" hole feeding five or six rafter
    spaces all of which feed up and out a ridge vent?
    
    Jerry 

    I'm about to hire a roofer to reroof my house. He has recommended
    installing a ridge vent along the apex of the roof to help with
    ventilation. Additional cost is $200. I currently have 9 inches
    of insulation in the attic and vents at either end of the house.
    I sometimes have had dripping/icicles over the gutters in the winter.
    Do you think the ridge vent is a good investment under the conditions.
    Also, he is recommending a fiberglass shingle. Is this better than
    asphalt and should I spend an extra $150 for a 25 yr roof instead
    of a 20 yr?
    
    
    Thanks in advance

    
    
     If you have vents on both ends of the house and we're not talking
    about a finished attic then why put out $200.00 for something thats
    less than $100.00. If its a finished attic then it might be worth
    your while to get some added ventalation. I'm not sure on the
    fiberglass shingles I've always used asphalt, and as far as 20 or
    25 years. If you plan to stay there that long, take a look at how
    much the whole job costs divide by 20 and that will give you an
    idea of how much it cost you for 20 years, Then take that number
    and multiply by 5, if that number is greater than the cost for each
    of the 20 years it might be worth it now. 

    If the roof vent for $200 includes materials and labor, thats a
    good deal.  Even for a small house.  If the ice is going up under
    your shingles you could prevent it by having the shingle installer
    put down a three foot wide layer of frost proofing rubber under
    the shingles.  This material goes for $65. per roll which should
    be enough to go all the way around your house.  I would suggest
    doing both and going with fiberglass 30 year shingles.  If you wait
    and watch the hardware store fliers the industrial grade shingles
    go on sale for about the price of the standard shingle.  I did my
    house last year and this is not a job I would like to repeat.  I
    used fiber glass Mark 80's with no splits and they look nice and
    clean.
    
    Mark

    I agree with .2 .........the ridge vents, along with soffitt vents
    (either strip or hole type) will increase your attic air flow
    considerably. You didn't mention....is the installer also proposing
    soffit vents.  Ideally, air is drawn in through the soffit vents
    and exhausted through the ridge vents.  I'm not sure that you'll
    get much benefit from ridge vents without the soffit vents.Gable end
    vents as you currently have do not offer much "area" ventilation.  
    Air movement is important as it willhelp keep the attic cooler during
    both summer and winter; particularly during winter, cold air
    ventilation will reduce chances of ice dams.
    
    The frost barrier descibed (generically called "Bituthane") is
    a self-adhesive rubber membrane that seals your roof sheathing
    from water penetration (ie-ice dams). GAF, Bird, Certainteed all
    offer their own brand name of the same product.
    
    Also make sure your roofer is installing aluminum drip edge at ALL
    exposed roof edges, NOT just the edges over the guttters.  And be sure 
    he provides proper overhang for roof drainage into the gutter.
    

Gosh, you guys are fast.  This note hasn't been here much more than an hour,
and already three responses.  I'd leave it, but there are already so many notes
on this stuff.  For info on ridge vents, see note 182; soffit vents note 315;
general roof ventilation notes 587, 736, 1741, 1777, 1917, 1965, and 2922;
fiberglass vs asphalt shingles note 1117, general shingle quality and roofing 
notes 234, 421, 1141, 1420, and 3076; and for all this stuff, notes 1111.85 and
1111.104. 

Standard write-lock notice follows.

Paul

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Paul [Moderator]

A month ago I moved into a 3-year-old house (near Nashua NH) with ridge
vents. Luckily, I was home on a vacation day last Friday when a big
thunderstorm with mucho rain and high winds blew through. Watching the rain
get whipped up my roof as if gravity didn't exist, I wondered "Gosh, what
keeps that out of the ridge vent?" 

Answer: Nothing. Water started dripping into the room below. Luckily, the 
storm passed and only a few ounces came in. I saw no evidence that this 
had happened before, but now I'm quite concerned. What would happen in a 
hurricane-Gloria-type situation where we had hours of heavy rain and winds? 

I have scanned this note, and I don't know the angle of my roof, but it's 
pretty steep. I have a colonial, but the leak was in a roof over a family
room with a cathedral ceiling. The family room is like a breezeway between
the house and the garage, with its own roof. (Did not check if any leak
occurred in main part of house, but saw nothing on the 2nd floor ceilings. 
However, there's a great deal of insulation above the 2nd floor, and 
perhaps it could have absorbed a small amount of water if some came in.)

Any advice will be appreciated! -- Steve

    There is a ridge vent specifically designed for steeper pitch roofs....
    its referred to "generically" as STEEP PITCH RIDGE VENT.  The
    difference being that it has a higher "wing".....the wind shield
    the looks like the upward armw of a "W"
    
    
    Steepr Ridge       xx           xx
    			 x   xxx   x
    			  x /   \ x
    			   x     x                          
    
    The bottoms have drainage slots to for water drainage.  I bought
    mine at Guthrie Lumber in Waltham.  I was not able to find steep
    pitch ridge vent at SOmerville, Plywood Ranch, PF Connors, etc.
                
    
    

RE -.1 : Thanks. Wouldn't that (additional rain protection) be needed for LESS
steep roofs? Looking at my roof this morning, it's not the steepest--I'd
say it's about 30�, whereas some roofs look more like 45�. Is it relatively
straightforward for a roofer to remove the current ridge vent and replace
it, does anyone know? 

    I used the "steep pitch" ridge vent on a standard 5/12 slope roof
    which is a rather gentle pitch (the type contractors run backwards
    on while carrying shingle on their shoulder :-)
    
    My contractor recommended this ridge vent specifically for it's
    higher wind-shield/rain protection.  The manufacturer is Harvey
    Industries.
    
    Usually ridhe ven is just tacked to the ridge ON TOP of the
    top course of shingles using regular galvanized roofing nails.......
    should be easy to pry up.  
    
    BTW, since the steep pitch R-V has a steep steep inside V for steep
    roof pitches, you do have to push down on the ridge vent when
    installing to conform to your roof's real pitch.  This is no problem
    though as the sheet aluminum construction of the R-V's are pretty
    pliable.

    I installed a ridge vent on my house last summer while DIY re-roofing
    it. It was fairly easy to install. I had similar experiences as
    mentioned in this notesfile. EG: water entering on the section of my
    roof over the garage. This section is lower by 1/2 story than the main
    house section. There are NO soffit eave vents on this part of the
    house. On the upper (main) part of the house there are ample soffit
    vents. During a good windy rain or snow storm I get damp crawlway ply-
    wood in the garage attic section. I have examined the main house attic
    section (with soffit vents) and have NEVER found any evidence of
    moisture, after the same storms. These roofs are both the same pitch,
    not very steep for New England probably around 30-35 degrees. I was
    errantly attributing this to the fact that the main house dry attic
    roof is higher and has 1 small gable end vent at either end. I now see
    the errors of my ways and I am installing soffit vents on this end of
    the house ASAP....
                                       THANKS HOME WORK... and you informed
                                        DIY'ers out there...
                                                      Mr.Bill
    

    Speaking of ridge and soffit vents, do they normally come from
    the factory with any type of screening built in?  A house I'm
    looking to purchase has the vents and I'm wondering if the all
    the bees and wasps in the neighborhood will be moving into my
    attic come spring.  I can screen the ridge pretty easily, but
    the soffit looks to be another matter.

    All the ones I've seen have come with screening.  It's easier for them
    to do it at the factory.
    
    Elaine

    Re: .50/.51   
    
    The soffit vents I used are basically 8' strips of aluminum with an
    expanded lath area running the full length - there is no screening per
    se, but most critters can't get through the lath.  However, I've seen a
    number of houses where this product was installed without backing
    behind the linear joints - sometimes a dandy gap was thrown in to boot.
    Insects can easily penetrate in such a case.
    
    I had a situation where yellow-jackets penetrated my soffit boxes
    through a hole where the end of the soffit met the house.  Fortunately,
    the house was incomplete to the point where I could zap the (large) nest
    with insect spray from inside (during the winter).  Anyway, while the
    nest was active I noticed that adult yellow-jackets couldn't penetrate
    the soffit-vent lath, but immature ones could pass through at will
    (which is how I noticed the problem).  

[Note:  I'm pretty sure I've read all of the roofing notes but haven't seen
 this question addressed.]

     I'm planning to install a ridge vent (continuous soffit vents are
already in place) and have been wondering whether or not the ridge vent
should extend to the ends (rakes) of the roof.

     I most houses I've seen with ridge vents, the vents end about a foot
(sometimes more) from the end.  My thinking is that vent will be a little
less conspicuous if it covers the whole ridge.

     If I did it this way, a problem I could have is that since there is a
chimney at one end of the house (at the ridge), butting the vent against it
would surely be difficult to properly flash.

     Thanks for any advice,
Scott


BTW:  This is a gable roof that I'm reroofing (stripping old shingles) and
the ridge vent is the 10' section aluminum non-shingle over type.

RE: .53

	On my house I installed the same type of vent. I ran it to the end
with no problems. I think I would in your case:

	Run one end to the edge.

	The other end (chimney) I would run close to but not all the
	way to. I would use the shingles and properly flash it.

	Bill

    RE: .54
    
    Thanks for the suggestion.  It seemed to work out prety good.
    
    Scott

    
        We just had a house (we are planning to buy) inspected and the
    inspector suggested very stongly that we install ridge vents ASAP.
    This sounds like something I can handle on my own, thanks to advice
    from HOME_WORK, and the house already has round soffit vents.  They
    appear to be covered by the attic insulation, but I'll make sure
    they're uncovered right after I move in.
        Now my question:  Should I leave the gable vents open or would
    it even matter?  On one hand, it seems that they would only help to
    improve ventilation.  On the other hand, they may distort the flow
    of ventilation.
        I am considering replacing the cedar shingles (eventually) so
    it wouldn't be too difficult to cover the gable vents while I'm at
    it.  This is a ranch, just under 40 feet long.
    
    					Tim 

    Leave the gable vents open.  They won't distort the flow of
    ventilation.
    
    -al

    I had a ridge vent installed as part of a reroofing job just a couple
    of weeks ago. This past weekend, I went up into the attic to peel back
    the fiberglas insulation to allow airflow out the ridge. (FYI, the
    insulation is improperly installed, with no air channel next to the
    roof sheathing, but that's not pertinent to this note.) 
    
    The problem I revealed is that the contractor cut only one slot in the
    roof sheathing, on one side of the ridge board. Cor-A-vent instructions
    (and common sense) say that there should be slots on both sides of the
    ridge board. The ridge board, by the way, is 1" thick. 
    
    I called the contractor tonight to let him know that I was unhappy with
    the installation. Although I have airflow out the ridge vent from my
    open, unfinished attic, someday I plan to finish the attic with a
    cathedral ceiling. The ridge vent, as installed now, would not allow
    proper airflow on one side of the cathedral ceiling -- there would be
    trapped air in the propa-vent (or other) channel. 
    
    The contractor explained that he made a slightly larger slot on the
    side that he did cut, and that this would provide adequate ventilation.
    As to the cathedral ceiling complications, the solution was to put in a
    horizontal ceiling close to the peak, so that air could flow around the
    ridge board and out the open slot.  I couldn't believe he was using
    this as justification for not redoing the vent. 
    
    I don't know what to do. I'd like to have the vent done right, but I
    don't know whether I want this contractor to do it. He did a beautiful
    job on the roof (including a hip dormer and two bays), but I don't
    believe ridge vents are his specialty -- especially since I was the one 
    who requested the Cor-A-vent product, based on suggestions from several
    people at work (right here!). He called it an inferior product. He's
    been roofing for about 30 years, and is very set in his ways and the
    materials he likes to work with.  
    
    Because the slot that he cut is up to 2" wide (as opposed to the
    recommended 7/8") I don't think there would be sufficient nailing 
    surface for the vent if I were to have the vent removed and 
    reinstalled over the two recommended slots. Cor-A-vent has instructions
    for wide ridge board installations, where you cut the Cor-A-vent
    lengthwise in two and then use metal flashing to bridge the two vent
    pieces. The instructions even recommend this installation technique if
    you happen to cut the slots too wide!
    
    Let me finish up here. If the missing slot problem were the only
    problem with the ridge vent, I could live with it. When it comes time to
    do the cathedral ceiling, I would just drill holes in the ridge board to 
    allow ventilation from the no-slot side of the roof. 
    
    But the ridge vent *looks* lousy from on the exterior.  It's uneven and 
    wavy. The contractor said that it would look that way until the cap 
    shingles soften in the heat and lay down flat. With the heat we've had,
    the shingles have definitely laid down, but the vent is still obviously
    uneven. 
    
    This is the first contractor with whom I've had a quality problem. How
    do I deal with him? Especially since I don't have confidence in him to
    do any rework on the vent. We didn't reach any conclusion on our phone
    conversation tonight. I said that I wanted to talk with my wife to
    figure out what to do....  So what do you all think?
                              

    Response .7 of this note mentions that, when putting in a ridge vent,
    you saw off about 1-2" from the ridge on either side.  My ridgemaster
    vent says the same thing (1", in fact).  But the question is:  do you mean
    1" from the _centerline_, or 1" from the outside of the ridge beam?
    
    One inch on each side from the centerline would be a 2" wide slot;
    subtracting the ridge beam would give 0.5" ventilation width left over.
    
    One inch from the outside of the ridge beam would mean a total slot
    width of 3.5", with 1.5" of that filled by the ridge beam, for 2" of
    ventilation width.
    
    In any case -- shouldn't this depend on the roof size?  My roof is 25'
    wide, and for a vapor-barriered roof, 25'/300 = 1" needed.  So the 1"
    from the centerline option seems too small.  Is this all correct?
    
    -Joel
    

I would say from the edges of the beam, as long as the vent will cover the
slot.  Otherwise, as you say, the tiny open slot would not be effective.

			steve

    The question is, will the vent cover the slot.  I rather suspect that
    the directions assume there is no ridge beam and the measurements are
    to be taken from the centerline.  Check both possibilities against
    the vent and see if you have enough coverage if you measure from the
    edges of the ridge beam; I think I'd want to allow at least an inch
    overlap, if not more.  

This is a little off the topic so if anyone can point me to existing notes...
This pertains specifically to shed roofs.

I'm looking for ideas to vent a shed roof attic that is attached to the 
main house. A very crude picture follows:

	|
	| 		The "?" is the area to vent.
	|\
	|a\
	|  \		I plan to install soffit vents along the soffit
	|   \		with Pro-pa (sp?) vents to keep the insulation
	| ?  \		out of the way of air flow.
	|     \
	|------\	The room is about 8'x12'.
	|     

A turbine vent is out. I don't like the way they look. 

The other alternatives I can think of is a vent that looks like a 
gable vent for where the roof meets the wall (a). This option would look 
funny though from the side of the house.

Or some sort of ridge vent to run along the top of the roof against the 
wall. I'd prefer to go with a ridge vent kind-of-thing but I'm concerned
with snow piling up as the pitch is very shallow. (probably about 2/12)

Anything else come to mind?

Thanks

Not really an answer but...

When you say shed, I presume a place to store junk and not living space.
I have such a beastie.

Can you take the ceiling out and use the space you wish to vent to store
stuff? I have a series of hooks that do nicely holding the leaf rake and
an extension ladder. You wouldn't need to vent it then.

Mickey.

I meant a shed roof as opposed to a gable roof for example, and no, the 
shed roof is over the bathroom.

The shallow pitch makes it hard.  I suppose you could use a regular ridge
vent, spread flat so that you get the full width down your shallow shed
roof.  If you shingle/flash up under it, it might be wide enough to avoid
a water infiltration problem.

Another alternative is to make a "hot roof" by putting insulation against
the roof deck.  For example, you could buy foam sheets, cut them to the
right width, and glue/stable/whatever them between the rafters.  There
was an artical recently in the Journal of Light Construction about doing
hot roofs above cathedral ceilings.  The summary seemed to be that they
work fine, if one is very careful about issues like air infiltration into 
the insulation.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

>The shallow pitch makes it hard.  I suppose you could use a regular ridge
>vent, spread flat so that you get the full width down your shallow shed
>roof.  If you shingle/flash up under it, it might be wide enough to avoid
>a water infiltration problem.

Go to a lumber yard and check out their selection of aluminum venting
pieces. They may have ALREADY something to do just what you want.
You're basically looking for a half a ridge vent with a vertical piece
to go behind the siding of the house above the shed roof. 

Last time I was poking around the lumber yard, I saw a special piece
of vented flashing to be used on a gambrel roof where the roof line
changes. Just what I needed several months earlier when I made my own
with a combination of regular vented drip edge  and flat aluminum
flashing. If I had only known what to look for! 

You might be able to make you own using vented dridge edge. If you can
get a hold of an "bending break", you could bend the flat part that's
normally nailed to the roof, up about half way down. 

Crude Picture follows...


Regular vented drip edge could be bent like so.


   Before                  After

      \                      |                  
       \                     |                  
        \                    |                  
         \                    \                 
          \                    \                
        __ \                 __ \               
        \ \ \                \ \ \              
         \ \_\                \ \_\             
          \                    \                
           \                    \               

Charly

I've seen a kind of ridge vent material that may be useful.  This stuff is
a roll of some plastic stuff that looks like a tangle of wires.  The air goes
between the "wires", and you put shingles on top of it.  I think Grossman's
sells the stuff.

It was intended for peak roofs, but I see no reason why you couldn't use
it for a shed roof, with flashing on top of it.  If used as follows, you'll
have twice as much material as the mfg. intended at the vent, but this is good
since you have a shallow pitch.

||
||!
||!
||\
||X\
|| X\
|| \X\ <- flashing
||  \X\
||   \
||    \ <- roof

The || is the wall, the ! and the top \ is flashing, the X is this ridge vent
material, the bottom \ is the roof (with gap where it meets the wall).

-Mike

    1. I have blown-in attic floor insulation (grey, loose, very light
       fiber.)  It seems to easily fly when disturbed.  I don't like this
       stuff, but it is there.
       Am I going to have problems with AIRBORNE PARTICLES if I install 
       an attic roof or gable fan? 

	    You could consider laying fiberglass over the blown in 
	insulation.  You can buy a lot of 3", cheap.
	    One possibility for you is to install a Whole House Fan.  I
	know that there's a discussion about those in here.  They draw 
	the cool air from in your house or cellar and force it into your
	attic.  
	    It sounds like it would be difficult for you to set up vents
	in your attic that will allow you to create a cross-breeze. Ridge
	vents would only work right if you have soffit vents that would
	allow air to travel in through the eaves and out the peak of the
	roof.
	    Anything you install should allow air to move throughout your
	entire attic.  You definately need venting at each end.  Besides
	all that heat, you may have a moisture problem due to lack of
	ventilation.  A damp attic could attract insects and would promote
	wood rot.
	  
					Tim

    Tim (and others),
    
    As questioned in my note (.0), would a roof fan at the far end from my
    one gable vent create enough open flow?  And maybe a couple roof vents 
    as well?  Again, my problem is I can't (easily) have soffit vents and
    my chimney is in the way for a second gable vent.   

      1)  If  you  don't  use a fan I doubt that you will have a problem
      with the loose insulation.  For this reason and also because a fan
      is  a  mechanical  device that needs maintenance, I would try very
      hard to figure out how to install soffit vents along with a  ridge
      vent.  This combo would probably be enough without any fan.

      Maybe  if  you explain why you think installing soffit vents would
      be difficult some readers can offer ideas to make it easier.

      2)  The  idea  of covering the existing insulation with fiberglass
      blanket insulation is a good one.  Another idea, if you don't need
      the  extra  insulation  thickness,  would be to cover the existing
      insulation with Tyvec or similar material. (This is a "house wrap"
      material   that   is  draft-proof  and  would  hold  the  existing
      insulation in place, but would allow moisture to pass through.)

    
>    As questioned in my note (.0), would a roof fan at the far end from my
>    one gable vent create enough open flow?  And maybe a couple roof vents 
>    as well?  Again, my problem is I can't (easily) have soffit vents and
>    my chimney is in the way for a second gable vent.   

	    What is a roof fan?  Are you talking about one of those wind
	driven roof vents?  If your not adverse to cutting a hole in your
	roof, nor would you mind having that galvanized steel sticking out
	of it (like a sore thumb), I'd opt for one of those.
	    Advantages are a low maintenance device that requires no elec-
	tricity to operate.  They also move a lot of air through a small
	opening.  Being that they have moving parts, they are bound to
	wear out but could last a very long time if taken care of.
	    Yes, definately install whatever you decide opposite where
	your gable vent is.  That cross-breeze thing again.
	    Aout your eaves:  Have you actually laid down on your stomach
	and reached into the eaves to find out what you have there?  You
	might be able to install soffit vents and if you could, I would.
	Mine are like this (cross section):


			          /	
			        /
			 roof /
			    /  
			  /   |--------------
			/-----|______________ rafters
			 eave

    As mentioned in (.0), I can instaul soffit vents.  The problem is
    I don't believe they will be effective.  
    
    Because of the shape of my (dormer) Cape, there is about a 4 foot deep 
    roof joint "slot" down to the soffits that is filled with blown-in insal.
    My guess is that getting that insullation out would be difficult.
    
                                /\
                               /  \
                              /    \
                             /      \
         Attic space ---->  /        \
                           / ________ \
                          / /        \ \ <------Area filled w/insulation
                         / /          \ \       (blown-in approx. 4'deep)
                        / /            \ \
                       /__|            |__\
                          |            | 
                          |            |
    
    I'd like to go the ridge vent route (and avoid a power roof fan). 
    However, other notes say I need a clear air flow from the soffit vents.  
    Will enough air get through the blown-in insul. (via soffit vents) and 
    the one gable vent to make the ridge vent work correctly?
    
    Or, am I back to my original other option.....roof vents and a power
    roof fan?
    
    P.S. If I don't resolve this by July, everyones invited to my house
         to watch me cook eggs in the attic (gets up to 130+ F)
                                                             
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

Definitely go for the ridge vent - it's more effective than any other kind.

As for the gable vents, they won't be adequate.  Ideally, you'd install
soffitt vents and use polystyrene foam channels ("PropaVent") under the
insulation to allow air to travel up to the roof area.

I also have a Cape, also with insulation in the soffitts.  Yet adding a ridge
vent and soffitt vents made a tremendous difference in the attic temperature.

Gable vents are nearly useless.

				Steve

Maybe you can remove the blown-in insulation (cellulose I assume) with a
shop vac.  You'll have to empty it frequently, or maybe you can rig up
something so that the bucket part is replaced with a garbage bag.  Install
the soffit vents and the propa-vents and reinstall the insulation.

	I had a similiar problem last year with my cape. A ridge vent
	did the trick. And now I don't smell what I cooked that
	evening in my upstairs bedroom like I used to before the vent.

	BTW, I had mine done for me with a medium height, poly vent and 
	they topped it with my own roof material so that it blends in.
	It was well done, took about 5 hours for 2 guys and cost $400.

	Higher than aluminum and do-it-yourself but I hate to climb.

    re: loose fiber insulation.
    
    Another way around the airborne problem would be to install a netting
    over the insulation that has small enough holes to keep the fiber in
    place, but big enough to allow air passage.
    
    It would be easy to install with a staple gun to the joists.
    
    Patrick      LONG_LIVE_'66_MUSTANGS!
    

    This particular note's been inactive for a long time, but hopefully
    I'll still get a response to my questions, with up-to-date info...
    
    I've decided to install ridge vents in conjunction with some soffit
    vents, and will also install a whole house fan. (The house is a 24x42
    split ranch w/20x24 finished basement.) In preparation, I've read a bunch 
    of related notes from this file and have gotten a lot of useful info. 
    However, I still have some questions that I was hoping to get updated
    answers for:
    
    General:
    ========
    - my attic is approx 1000 sq ft. According to a formula found in
    another note, this translates into approx 1500 sq in of needed
    ventilation: 750 for the ridge, and 375 for each soffit. Is this
    calculation and allocation correct?
    
    Ridge Vent:
    ===========
    - How many sq in of ventilation are available per running ft of ridge
    vent? 
    
    - Do the ridge vents come with sufficient screening, or should I 
    plan to add my own?	
    
    - Any ridge vent I've ever seen advertised was in 10' lengths. Are
    other lengths available? or can it be cut to fit?
    
    - How much of a mess will be made in the attic when cutting the ridge 
    opening? One respondent in another note made a point of this, but noone
    else talked about it. 
    
    - The house is approx 15 yrs old, and will probably need a new roof 
    in a few years. Can I install the ridge vent with galvanized screws
    instead of nails, so that I can remove/reinstall it rather than trash
    it when it comes time to do the roof? 
    
    - Any brand/source/price recommendations in the No.Mass/So.NH area?
    
    Soffit vents:  
    =============
    - I'm still undecided about using round 'plugs', either 2" or 3",
    rectangular inserts, or continuous venting. Anyone have an opinion of
    one vs another? Also, any estimates for prices?
    
    - Of the options above, I'm leaning toward  continuous soffit vents. If
    I go that route, should I cut the soffits in place, or should I remove
    them and do the cutting on firm ground (my preference)? Also, are the
    vents installed down the middle of the soffit (my guess), or is it
    installed along the side? (If so, which side: close to, or away from,
    the wall?)
    		   
    - Do any/all of the soffit vents come with sufficient screening, or
    should I plan to install some of my own?
    	
    As always, thanks in advance for the info,
    
    Freddie

    Soffit vents:  
    =============
    - I'm still undecided about using round 'plugs', either 2" or 3",
    rectangular inserts, or continuous venting. Anyone have an opinion of
    one vs another? Also, any estimates for prices?

I looked into round plugs.  I came up with an appalling number of plugs
that would have to be drilled, and decided that cutting horizontal lines
would be more interesting.  I haven't actually done it yet...

    - Of the options above, I'm leaning toward  continuous soffit vents. If
    I go that route, should I cut the soffits in place, or should I remove
    them and do the cutting on firm ground (my preference)? Also, are the
    vents installed down the middle of the soffit (my guess), or is it
    installed along the side? (If so, which side: close to, or away from,
    the wall?)
    		   
I don't know how vents could be installed without removing the soffits.
Reaching in from the attic won't work.

On my recently constructed garage, the vents run down the middle.  The
carpenter simply nailed the continuous vents onto the plywood and put
it up -- he didn't add extra screening or anything like that.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    - I'm still undecided about using round 'plugs', either 2" or 3",
    rectangular inserts, or continuous venting. Anyone have an opinion of
    one vs another? Also, any estimates for prices?

	    I have round soffit vents.  I don't recommend them.  If I had
	the option, I'd get continuous soffit vents.  the holes for the
	round style are difficult to (hole) saw, you need too many to get
	the ventilation you need and they don't look so great.
	    I think you could cut a groove for continuous vents with a
	circular saw.  With a ranch, you could conceivably set up some
	(plank) staging so you could easily reach the eaves.  Set the saw
	to ~�" depth and walk under the eave with it.  Wear goggles.  
	    I pulled one of the soffit boards out from my ranch.  It was
	a royal pain and I mangled the board while I was at it.  It's only
	thin plywood and the nails prefered to remain embedded into the 
	wood.

					Tim

    Thanks for the replies.
    
    I've decided to go with continuous pre-screened soffit vents rather
    than rectangular or round inserts. (According to my calculations, I'd 
    have to install 54 3"-diameter plugs or 120 2"-plugs *per side*...NFW!)
    
    I'm tackling the soffit-vent installation on Saturday. I plan to remove 
    the existing soffits, rip them down the middle to make room for the
    vents and reinstall them. I'll have a piece of 3/8 plywood on hand to
    cut replacements for any section that doesn't survive removal...I'll
    post a reply with my results. If all goes well, maybe I'll get to the
    ridge vents by next week.
    
    Freddie
    
    p.s. FYI, prices as of 5/5/92
    
    	HQ		$2.47 per 8 ft (screened)
    	Grossmans	$3.99 per 10 ft (unscreened)
    	Somerville	$3.99 per 10 ft (screened)

    This notes been inactive for a while, but hopefully I'll get a quick
    response....
    
    I'm planning to add a ridge vent (along with continuous soffit vents)
    to the roof of my 42x24 split, but I hadn't realized that there were so
    many types to choose from. Can anyone offer suggestions/opinions/advice
    or pros/cons regarding the following types?
    	
    	Pre-formed aluminum ridge vent - comes in 10-ft sections, can be
    	------------------------------   butted together with joiners, and 
     	is *not* shingled over. Cost is approx $16 per 10' section.
    
    	Cor-Vent - looks like the brown corrugated paper found in a package
    	--------   of Oreo cookies. Must be shingled over. Approx $15 for a
    	4-ft section.
    	
    	Roll-vent - material looks like those plastic scouring pads. Must
    	---------   be shingled over. Cost was approx $40 for a 20-ft roll.
    
    Also, some questions: 
    
    If I go with a type that needs to be shingled, do I also use roofing
    felt?  Also, do I need special ridge shingles, or can I just cut
    regular shingles  as needed?
    
    If I go with the aluminum, can/should I also first put down a strip of
    real screening material? (The aluminum only has those narrow slits,
    which will probably keep out the larger insects, but what about the
    smaller ones (mosquitos or even 'baby' wasps/bees/etc.)?)
    
    Thanks in advance for any info...
    
    Freddie

    Our house has the Cor-Vent ridge vent.  It is a plastic material
    (ours is black, and it really ISN'T cardboard) and comes with
    longer roofing nails which you are supposed to use with your
    regular shingles when nailing over the vent.  When they did
    our roof they ran the felt up to the peak, cut out about an
    inch or so of plywood along the peak, shingled up to about that
    point, then applied the Cor-Vent and shingles.  I think they
    used regular shingles (cut into thirds). 
    
    This seems to look better than the aluminum style.

    Has anyone found the aluminum ridge vents to be particularly noisy
    in the rain?  I know my aluminum gutters often amplify the sound of the
    rain.  I'm trying to decide between using the 10' aluminum
    FilterVent(TM) ridge vent (easier to install) or the shingle over type
    ridge vent (harder to install, but visually less noticeable).  Any input 
    would be appreciated.
    
    Gary

My (former) house in Florida had aluminum ridge vents.  If you are in the attic
during a rain storm, they are noisy, but otherwise, no.  However, if I were
deciding between aluminum, and the shingled type now, I would choose the shingled,
as the aluminum ones on my house had a tendancy to pull up in the wind.  I ended
up screwing them down with long aluminum wood screws in place of the original
nails.  The second reason would be that the shingled type looks lots better.

Barry

    
    	I have the aluminum ridge vents and I never get any noise from
    them.  Also they've been on the house for approx. 5 years and haven't
    pulled loose yet ( and I live in a very windy area). 
    
    Joe 

    I was painting some window trim from my family room roof and accidently
    stepped on the aluminum ridge vent. It now has a very large dent in it
    that will probably be there forever. It's one of those things that bug
    you everytime you see it.
    
    Steve (Ridge)

    
    I'm buying a house that needs a new roof and needs added ventilation.
    The owner has agreed to have the necessary repairs done. The original
    agreement called for a ridge vent and soffet vents. He is now giving me
    the option of installing "hicks" vents, instead of soffet vents.
    
    Does anyone know what hicks vents are? Are they better than soffet
    vents? Should I take him up on his offer?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Miles

    I think a "hicks" vent is where a bunch of good old boys get loaded and
    shoot huge holes in your soffets with shotguns.  This provides
    excellent ventilation at a low price, but allows pest infiltration.
    
    I would insist on having screening stapled over the holes.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    Steve

      This is what we have in an addition on our house. The "hicks" vent
      (I think thats the right  name)  is  a  drip  edge  that  includes
      slotted openings to vent under the roof sheathing.  This is a less
      expenseive way to provide venting that performs  pretty  much  the
      same  way  as  sofit  vents.  My personal opinion is that it looks
      better than sofit vents; others may disagree.  There are also some
      people  who  don't  believe  that  it works as well as traditional
      sofit vents.

      If  you  accept  the hicks vents you should be able to negotiate a
      small cost reduction.  The cost of materials more or less  offests
      one  against the other, but the hicks vents save labor -- they are
      installed with exactly the same labor as  a  standard  drip  edge,
      while traditional sofit vents take added labor.

    I may be mistaken, but in this type of vent there has to be a good 
    space in between the roof sheathing and the fasure (sp?) board for
    it to work. Something to watch for. The space is here instead of in
    the sofits with the sofit vents.
    /BD
      

    Hicks vents are actually named after their "inventor", Robert
    Hicks out of Chelmsford/Westford.  Apparently, he (or someone in
    his employment) developed this 1-piece drip edge/vent (as Charlie
    correctly mentioned a few replies back) to provide a dual-purpose
    at a cost reduction.  Hicks is a developer, and we live in one of
    his houses in Merrimack, NH, with these vents.  After 10+ years,
    I have to say they work very well.  The provide an adequate amount
    of airflow at the drip-edge, providing you keep the insulation
    away from the area.  Our particular house had gable vents, too, which
    aren't as good as the newer ridge vents, so that's about the only
    change I would have made.  Our addition was installed with separate
    drip-edges and vents under the eaves, providing a similar function
    to the Hicks vents, but I prefer the Hicks vents over this other
    method.
    
    Let me know if you'd like more info.  I like them!
    
    andy
    

    I put the "hick" vents into my addition. The only thing to watch for,
    is to have a good, sharp bend at the drip part. As sent, they don't
    have a sharp enough bend angle.
    
    Marc H.

    As mentioned in .3, you need to have a gap between the roof sheathing
    and the fascia board for the Hicks vent to work properly.  The
    contractor should make (cut) a gap if there's not one already, but it 
    may not be obvious whether it was done properly once they're installed
    (since the Hicks vent covers the 'gap').  On the other hand, it is more
    likely the insulation will interfere with the ventilation offered by
    the soffit vent.
    
    I've got Hicks vents on my current home, and have had soffit vents in
    my last house.  Both should work fine if installed properly.
    

        Having just installed some hicks vent this weekend I have
    a question or two.
        The return flange on the bottom, it's supposed to be nailed
    to the facia, right?
        Also, has anyone had any problem with bug entry at the vent slots?
    Seems like screening would be a good idea while I still have access
    to the area.
    
      thanks in advance
     Bob

    Re: .7
    
    I nailed the bottom to the facia board. Works fine, IF , you have a
    nice bend in the vent so that about one inch is on the facia board.
    
    I did not put screening in....I do get wasps into the attic at times.
    While this may be related, they also come in other places as well. 
    I wouldn't bother with the screening. Just remember to keep the
    insulation back somewhat from the vent.
    
    Marc H.

We're trying to get estimates for replacing the roof on the house we're
buying.  (keep those recommendations for roofers for the Newton, MA
area rollin' in, folks!:-).

The house is a 30-something year old "raised ranch", with a relatively
shallow pitch.  The redoubtable Paul Cornell recommended (aside from
replacing the roof ASAP) 8 x 12" soffits every 4' (there are none there now). 
 
At least two of the roofers we've talked to are talking about using a ridge 
vent *instead of* soffits, on money saving grounds.  The replies here are
talking about ridge vents *in conjunction with* soffits.  Are we getting
the run-around, or is this a good idea?

Thanks,

Bobbi

    Ridge vents won't work without soffits or some such other venting as
    there will be no circulation of air.
    
    Mike

    Ridge vents need soffit vents.  In theory at least, if you don't have
    soffit vents and the wind is blowing perpendicular to the ridge, there
    will be a partial vacuum formed at the vents on the lee side of
    the ridge and rain can be forced into the vents on the windward side.
    Or so the instructions that came with some ridge vents that I installed
    explained it.  By having the soffit vents, you give the air someplace
    to come from besides the vents on the opposite side of the ridge. 
    And having the airflow travel 6" from one side of the ridge to the
    other wouldn't do much to ventilate your attic, anyway.  You need the
    air to come *from* someplace.  If you don't want to do soffit vents
    you can do gable end vents, but the point is, you need a source of
    air.

What I heard is that you must *not* have gable end vents if you have 
a ridge vent.  I don't know if it's true, but it seems unlikely that
gable end vents will help much if the wind is blowing perpendicular to 
the ridge.  Also, soffit vents help avoid ice dams.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I don't see why the gable end vents aren't okay - the point is, you
    need a source of air besides the other side of the ridge vent; why
    can't that be a gable vent?

You don't have to eliminate gable vents if you have ridge vents, but gable
vents aren't very effective.  If you have sufficient soffit ventilation and
add a ridge vent, you CAN remove or block off the gable vents, but it's
not required.  The primary reason to do so is that they are a frequent
entry point for bugs.

		Steve

    
    
    ..The reason why you close your gable vests off when you install
    a ridge vent is that you work on the "heat rises" theory where
    you get an even draw up from the soffits, thru the plywood roofing to
    the ridge taking away any moisture  that might form.
    
    JD

	Along with .82: In addition to the wind's sucking air out the
	ridge, air entering the soffits warms in the attic, and flows
	out the ridge, as in a chimney.

	Gable vents would likely shortcircuit this chimneying, letting
	air enter the attic as wind sucks air out the ridge.

	(This sounds familiar.  Betcha I'm repeating some reply.)

	Regards, Robert.

    Is a ridge vent effective on a hip roof?

    Our addition was done as a hip roof, with a ridge vent and the
    Hicks vents along the roof edge.  The ventilation seems more
    than adequate - no ice dams in winter, and when going into
    the attic during the summer it's actually amazingly cool.
    The main portion of our house has the Hicks vents, but gable
    vents instead of ridge vents.  Even with a gable exhaust fan,
    that portion of the attic is MUCH warmer than the portion
    from the addition.
    
    andy
    

    Hi,
    
    I'm in the process of improving the ventilation in my attic in
    anticipation of installing a whole house fan, by installing continuous
    soffits vents & ridge vents. However, I've encountered a (hopefully)
    small snag that I hope someone can help me with.
    
    The house is a 42 x 24 ranch, and I've installed 40' of continuous
    soffit vent in the back, and have begun working on the front. I've
    installed 4 sections (32') but the remaining 8' of soffit are blocked
    by the upper vertical trim of our bay window, which projects and blocks
    the entire depth of the soffit. The easy way out would be to do nothing
    further: live with 'only 32' ft of soffit vent in the front. However,
    my intention is to install 40' of ridge vent, and I'm concerned how it
    will function if the rear soffit vent exceeds the front vent by 8 ft.
    My choices, as I see them, and concerns() are as follows:
    
    - do nothing more and live with the mismatch (might prevent ridge vents
      from functioning properly.)
    	
    - rip out the upper trim, and soffit boards if any, and either:
    	o replace the vertical trim with rectangular vents included (might
    	not look good); or
    	o install soffit boards and soffit vents, and reinstall the window 
    	trim angled back to the wall of the house. (would require a compound 
    	mitre cut, which I'm not equipped to do myself...)
    	
    That's my current problem...any hints, advice or opinions are welcomed.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Freddie 

    I ventured up into our (walk up) attic last night and noticed several 
    things:

    1.  There a three vents in the ceiling (north facing side) that 
    had puddles of water below them (on the floor boards of the attic 
    floor).  The vents above them had water droplets on them.  Is this 
    from condensation?  What can I do about this? 

    2.  I touched various places of the ceiling of the attic and much 
    of it was damp.  What can I do about this? 

    When I had the place inspected the home inspectr said that there 
    had been water damage at one point but it appeared that corrections 
    to prevent this again were made.


    The attic also has a soffit vent running along it's length.

    Thanks for qany help and suggestions?

    /Phil

    Can you determine where the water is coming from?  For example,
    where does the exhaust fan in the bathroom go?  How about the dryer?
    That could be one source of moisture.  Hopefully, it may be something
    simple like adding vent covers over the outside vents.
    
    			SRG

>    2.  I touched various places of the ceiling of the attic and much 
>    of it was damp.  What can I do about this? 
...
>    The attic also has a soffit vent running along it's length.

This could have occurred from the recent storm...  The wind blowing rain
"up the shingles"?

Does the roof also have ridge venting or gable vents?  Our attic ceiling is
a little damp.  We have soffit vents and gable vents.  It's been recommended
to us that we have ridge venting installed (see many notes in here about it).

Dan

>This could have occurred from the recent storm...  The wind blowing rain
>"up the shingles"?

this is a possibilty.

>Does the roof also have ridge venting or gable vents?  Our attic ceiling is
>a little damp.  We have soffit vents and gable vents.  It's been recommended
>to us that we have ridge venting installed (see many notes in here about it).

There is a vent on either end of the attic.  (gable vents?)
There is a vent along the "top" of the attic extedning from one end of 
the house to the other. (ridge vent?)
There are three vents that extend out from the north facing side of 
the roof.  (roof vents)?
There may be soffit vents also (under the eaves).

I went into the attic last night and I noticed frost on the metal 
casing of the three vents (that exit the north facing slope of the 
roof).

    
    Make sure your soffit vents are unobstructed !
    
    If you don't have an open airflow from the soffit to the ridge
    you'll get condensation. I know ! When I moved to this area in
    '84 I bought a new unfinished cape. This ventilation was new to
    me. When I started finishing the 2nd floor in the winter months
    I laid some insulation in the eaves to cut down on the drafts.
    The next night all the roofing nails were HEAVILY frosted and
    the next day the sun came out, heated the nails and it was a
    rainstorm in my attic. The insulation came out real quick !
    
    one of the many dumb things I've done !
    
    Randy
    

    
    
    I'd say you have to many holes up there!  a ridge vent, gables vents
    and 3 other holes in the roof.......  sounds like you have a lot of
    dead air up there and with the heat from the house, your getting a
    moisture build up.  This is what I would do....
    
    Make sure you can see your soffit vents on both sides of the house.
    then take some plastic and staple it on each of the gable vents and
    over the 3 vents on the north roof.  Now, the air will be drawn in
    thru the soffits, up along the roof and out the ridge vent.  This
    should draw your moisture problem from the ceiling.....
    
    JD

    re: .4
    good point, I'll make sure the soffit vents are unobstructed.
    

    re: .5
>    Make sure you can see your soffit vents on both sides of the house.
>    then take some plastic and staple it on each of the gable vents and
>    over the 3 vents on the north roof.  Now, the air will be drawn in
>    thru the soffits, up along the roof and out the ridge vent.  This
>    should draw your moisture problem from the ceiling.....
    
    hmmmm, sounds reasonable

�    I'd say you have to many holes up there!  a ridge vent, gables vents
�    and 3 other holes in the roof.......  sounds like you have a lot of
�    dead air up there and with the heat from the house, your getting a
�    moisture build up.  This is what I would do....
    
    How can too many holes result in dead air?

>    How can too many holes result in dead air?

When the wind is blowing, a ridge vent pulls air up from the soffit vents
based on the slight vacuum on the lee side of the roof.  Putting in gable
vents messes this up, the same way that putting holes in a A/C system
can cause dead air in places where it ought to be moving...

...or so I've read in various places -- it's not my area of expertise.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    as it turned out most of the sofit vents were covered by 
    insulation.  i've taken care of that and will be sealing off the 
    gable vents (and possibly roof, not ridge) shortly.


    i have another question, the ceiling of attic is black, probaby 
    from mold or mildew.  is there any treatment i can apply to 
    eliminate it?

    thanks

    -phil

    
    There's a couple of different products that will kill the mold.
    TSP would probably do it.  You may also need to refinish the surface
    with a stainproof primer like Kilz. Otherwise the residual stain
    will keep bleeding through any new latex.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

Wait a minute.  I'd just leave things be.  If you are going to kill the mildew
on the underside of your roof, you are going to need to apply bleach to it.  This
is not fun in an open area where you don't care where the drips land.  In your
attic, you will need to cover or remove all your insulation, to keep it dry.  If
you remove the insulation, you will still need to put waterproof cover down to
keep the drips from landing on the upper side of your ceiling, and dripping 
through to show on the living area side.

Since I've yet to find a way to kill mildew which does not cause messy drips,
I recommend you just fix the ventilation, and leave the mildew alone.

Elaine

>I recommend you just fix the ventilation, and leave the mildew alone.

and what will happen to the mildew?  die of natural causes?  will it 
be safe to store stuff in the attic?  willeverything become mildewy?

thanks

/phil

    Mildew may die now that your moisture problem is taken care of,
    but I would'nt count on it. It's a survivor. I wouldnt be too 
    concerned about removing insulation if you could apply a light
    application of bleach/water, say with a garden sprayer. If you dont 
    kill it, it Will spread to everything else, especially boxes and
    other porous materials which tend to absorb h2o vapors and provide 
    a favorable environment for growth.
                                                   Ken
     

    
    Phil,
    I'd hold off until you've fixed the cause of the problem.
    Getting the correct venting will help to dry things out.
    I'd wait until we get some warm dry days to cry to clean.
    
    JD
    

    
    Yes - fix the airflow first but also clean it up now while the mold is
    dormant because of the cold.  Leave it later and it will form fruiting
    bodies and spore.  The spores will waft around and settle in other
    parts of the house.  This can also cause respiratory problems or
    contribute to allergic reactions.  And if it finds another damp
    spot, the mold growth takes off again.  
    
    Even a bathroom grout-cleaning spray will kill it off without making a
    mess or wetting the attic insulation. Another quick way to kill it is
    to mix up a batch of wallpaper paste that has a mold
    inhibitor/fungicide and apply with a paste brush. No drips, no need to
    wipe off and you can latex straight over it later.
    
    regards,
    
    
    Colin
    

    thanks!

    -phil

    Phil,
    
    	This may help your problem. 
    	I just bought a new house. It's a full dormered cape w/unfinished 2nd 
    	floor & an unfinished attached family room.
    	The builder was telling me about attics & roofing & problem
    	prevention. 
    	1.) you want to keep the unfinished area (attic or whatever) as
    	close to the outside temp as possible. To do this you need
    	ventilation - soffit, ridge & gable ends(sometimes).
    	2.) you want to keep warm air out. This maybe where you're having
    	a problem, warm air meeting the cold air creates condensation. Also
    	by keeping warm air out - well insulated & the insulation pulled up
    	tight to the eaves at the soffits, will prevent drafts on the level
    	below.
    	Problem! How can you pull insulation up to the soffit without
    	blocking the air from circulating?
    	Solution - install rigid vent. He then proceeded to tell me what it	
    	was & how to install it.
    
    	Rigid vent is "U" shaped & made out of styrofoam. It comes in 4'
    	lengths and is made for either 16" or 24" o.c. You place the rigid 
    	vent down into the opening of the soffit but not touching the vent
    	itself and allow it to extend above the insulation and staple it to
    	the roof decking. This will provide ample amount of air circulation. 
    	A 2' piece is usally long enough unless you have a steep pitch roof 	
    	(12/12) like I do in the front, there I used a 4' piece.
    
    	Side view of rigid vent:       pictured for 24" o.c. Break in half
    				       for 16" o.c.
    	
    
          ------                ------|------                ------
                \   air flow   /             \   air flow   /
                 \            /               \            /
    		  ------------                 ------------
          /\          /\               /\           /\         /\
    
    		     i  n  s  u  l  a  t  i  o  n
    
    	When I installed these in my attic and family room, I could feel the 
    	air moving up the rigid vent & out the top. I checked, what is to be 
    	my finished clg & there are no drafts near the eaves. I good sign I	
    	hope! You can buy these at Home Depot or any other building supply
    	store, only about $1.50 for the 24"o.c./ $.80 for the 16"o.c.
    
    	Hope this helps.
    	Alan
    	
    
    

thanks Alan, I'll look into it.

/Phil

    
      I beleive these are caled Proper Vents. The ridge vent runs along
    the ridge (peak) of your roof. When installing proper vents you need
    to also install adequete soffit vents. These allow a drafting effect
    crated by the draw of air thru the soffit vents, up the Proper vents
    and out the ridge vent. 
    
      All this keeps air circulating, and condensation to a minimum. When
    installed it work......
    
      Dave..(who did this 5 yrs ago and still has a dry attic/roof)

    Off on a new thread:  has anyone installed a combination drip
    edge/continuous soffit vent when re-roofing?  
    
    The spring project is a new roof on my small Cape, with a ridge and
    soffit vents system as part of the deal.  I like the idea of a
    continuous vent, as opposed to the circular or rectangular vented plug
    installed in each bay.  I have a scheme to make a continuous vent, but
    recently saw a reference to a combination drip molding/continuous vent
    that installs underneath the starter course of shingles and hangs out
    beyond the fascia.
    
    Comments? 

    
      In the NE its commonly called a 'Hicks Vent'. I've seen them for sale
    at Builder's Square and looked at them carefully. I think it is about
    the best way to vent a soffit that I've seen and almost invisible. The
    only problem is that it has to be put on before the starter course of
    shingles which makes it a little harder to retrofit.
    
    					Kenny

    Thanks, Kenny, I'll check into them at Builder's Square.
    
    Regards,
    John

    I had the combination drip edge/venting installed last year when my
    roof was reshingled. I think we called them `vented drip edge'. They
    sounded like a good idea. They run continuously along the entire
    roof-line and seem to proved a good amount of ventilation (never can
    have too much for a roof, I think). Prior to that we had NO soffit
    ventilation so it was either drill the soffits or install the vented
    drip-edge. 
    
    Also, since we were putting in the `Propa Vents'(styrofoam air-channels
    along the underside of the roof), the vented drip edge places the start
    of the air flow directly into the channel. Whereas soffit vents on the
    underneath fascia board may have to `find' it's way into the air
    channel?
    
    Peter

    How warm should an attic get?  We have a ridge vent with soffit vents
    along the full length of the house.  It was a pretty windy day and the
    temperature outside was in the mid-80's.  The temperature inside the
    attic was 105 by noon.  The house does have a black roof.  Could there
    be something wrong with the ventilation or is this normal?
    
    							John

    I'd say that's about normal for a decently-ventilated attic.
    Otherwise it could climb to 140!
    
    				Steve

    We've been getting roof reshingling estimates for our new house, which
    is about 30 yrs old.  The back half of the roof was reshingled 2 years
    ago, presumably after a disaster.  Our home inspector recommended the
    ridge/soffit venting (we currently have two gable vents--if I'm using
    the term correctly).  One roofer reluctantly agreed to quote a price
    for adding a ridge vent, saying we could have too much ventilation.  
    
    Is it possible to have too much ventilation.  In reading these notes, I
    didn't think what we're proposing to do is different than this string
    of replies.
    
    Should we find another roofer?
    
    What do you look for to determine if you have a ventilation problem.
    
    (we have a whole house fan that seemed to work okay during the summer,
    but the home inspector had a point in saying we were trying to vent the
    house through very little area in the attic)
    
    Wendy

    I don't think you need to worry about "too much ventilation."  Now,
    with a ridge vent you do need to worry (a bit) about having enough
    soffit vent to prevent water being drawn through the ridge vent
    by a strong wind in a rainstorm, i.e. if there isn't enough soffit
    vent, a strong wind blowing across the ridge will draw rain through
    the ridge vent because the wind creates a partial vacuum.  Other
    than that though, I don't think there's much to worry about.

	    I don't understand why the roofer would be reluctant to install
	ridge vents.  It seems to me that installing ridge vents is easier
	than shingling.  Now soffit vents can difficult and even dangerous
	to put in.  Is the roofer installing the soffit vents?

					Tim

    
    
    I dont think he wants to do the work......  If you install
    a ridge vent and soffit vents,  the air should take a natural
    path up the inside of the roof rafters and out the top.  Thus
    removing the moisture buildup on the inside.  And you dont
    need to run any electric motor!!!...
    
    JD

    Thanks for the confirmation.  I've just never heard anyone say there
    could be too much ventilation.
    
    No, we weren't going to ask the roofer to install soffits, we were
    planning a DIY.  I've taken copious notes from this conference.  After
    the comment about it being difficult and dangerous, I may reconsider.
    
    And definitely, we need to keep looking for the right roofer.
    
    Wendy

We had someone install continuous soffit vent on our house and he was very
reluctant to cut the soffits with an upside-down circular-saw, which would be
real dangerous.  Then he hit upon the idea of using a jig-saw, and he said the
job went beautifully.

-Chris

    
    Re: .27 (Wendy)
    
    Maybe by "too much ventilation" the guy simply meant you have enough
    now  and more would be an unnecessary expense? If you've got a moisture
    problem due to poor ventilation, you can tell by rusted nails on the
    underside of the roof, or by frost forming inside the attic.
    
    If the only problem is summertime venting, I don't think a ridge/soffit
    vent system is likely to help much.
    
    Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?
    
    JP
    
    

    	Soffit vents should be a piece of cake to install. They have small
    round ones that can easily be installed using a drill attachment type
    hole saw. That's what our roofer did when we replaced our roof due to
    "inadequate" ventilation and improper materials (wafer board
    sheathing.)
    
    	Ridge vents are inexpensive and also a piece of cake to install. 
    FWIW - My last house had 2 gable vents and no soffits or ridge vent.
    
    	Ray

	    I have the round soffit vents, not by choice.  The small ones
	(2") are about useless.  The bigger ones will provide adequate ven-
	tilation but are exponentially more difficult/dangerous to install.
	The torque you can exhibit on a 3"+ hole saw is enough to throw
	one off a ladder or break a wrist.  I think round soffit vents 
	look uglier than the continuos type and you have to install quite
	a few of them.

					Tim

    Re: .93
    
    I was trying to solve the latter problem--The house stays hotter inside
    than the outside summer air.  I don't see rusted nails in the attic,
    smiling shingles or any of the other things.  Also, from reading this
    file and listening to the advice of our building inspector, I assumed
    we needed venting.  Since we have to reshingle our roof within the next
    year or two, I thought now would be a convenient time.  
    
    This house is new to us and we're still getting to know it.  My old
    house across town was a one story bungalow with a motorized attic fan. 
    That house was cool in the summer.  This new house, a two story
    colonial with whole house fan, is much hotter.  The home inspector had
    told us two things.  Replace the roof soon; and the whole house fan
    will work better if the hot air has someplace to go.
    
    Yes, I've read the string on whole house fans, as well.  Thanks very
    much for the advice.  This notes file has been fabulously informative.
    
    Wendy

    
    Re: .96
    
    Well, I don't know anything about whole house fans (he said before
    recklessly proceeding anyway) but isn't the idea to draw hot air from
    the living space and push it out a window or vent in the attic? I guess
    I don't see how increasing the attic ventilation helps accomplish that.
    More attic ventilation would mean less hot air being sucked from the
    living space.
    
    If the living space gets hot only because the attic is hot, the problem
    would be worse on the second floor (hot ceilings), right? If that is 
    the case, better attic ventilation might do the trick but maybe a
    bigger fan or more attic insulation is called for.
    
    JP
    

�isn't the idea to draw hot air from
�    the living space and push it out a window or vent in the attic? I guess
�    I don't see how increasing the attic ventilation helps accomplish that.
    
    If you're pumping hot air into the attic, doesn't it make sense to
    increase the attic ventilation to make it easier for that hot air to
    get out of the attic?

    
    You could be right -- but my admittedly-in-ignorance take on it is that
    the attic/whole-house fan _draws_ hot air from the living space and
    pushes it outside. A ridge vent would simply reduce the suction between
    the attic and the living space.
    
    Help,
    
    JP 

No, any additional attic ventilation makes a whole-house fan work better.
I'm not sure where you're coming from regarding "suction"; the fan moves air
from the house to the attic; the easier that air can escape the attic, the
greater the overall flow from the house.  Compare blowing through a straw
to blowing through a garden hose.

					Steve

    
    Thanks Steve. My mental picture was that of a vanilla exhaust fan that
    happened to be blowing out of a gable vent and sucking air from the
    whole house. You can see where additional attic ventilation wouldn't
    help that configuration...
    
    JP
    
    P.s., my home in Epsom is so far north that we have no need of these
    cooling devices.

Ah, a gable fan; those are pretty useless.  A whole-house fan mounts in
the attic floor, open to the living area below.  My house in Nashua (not all
that far from Epsom) definitely benefits from a whole-house fan in summer.

				Steve

Are ridge vents required to be installed by building code when re-roofing an
existing house? (this is in Merrimack, NH - I haven't been able to reach the
town's building inspector yet).

Thanks,
- Dave

Just talked to inspector and will answer my own question in .103.
A ridge vent is not required by code in Merrimack, NH when replacing
a roof, but it is strongly recommended. 

    Does anyone have experience with the Hicks vent (mentioned in .37)? 
    The contractor that wants to redo my roof recommends them in addition
    to the ridge vent.  The house has neither now, the ridge vent will be
    added, but I have a big soffit overhang.  The decision is to cut the
    soffit and put in a continuous vent, or go with his recommendation of
    the hicks vent.
    
    bill

    
    Yeah -- they work fine, and they're a lot less noticeable than retrofit
    soffit vents. Just don't stand on the last inch or so of your roof.
    (They don't seem to have any problem supporting the leaning weight of
    an extension ladder.)
    
    (My home is a "Hicks home", built by the alleged inventor of the Hicks
    vent.)
    

Is there any clearance recommendation for ridge vents?  We've got soffit
vents and the ridge vent.  However, whenever I'm up in my attic, stowing 
away, or taking down items, I notice that the plywood sheets making up the
roof seem to come all the way up to the edge of the, uh, main beam (or
whatever it's called that sits in the center and holds the /\ sections
together, looks like a 2x8 board.)  I would expect there to be a small gap
on either side to allow air to circulate, but there doesn't seem to be 
any gap between the plywood and the centerline board.  I realize that the
plywood may go over that board, and have an opening there, but if they are
more or less flush against this board, it doesn't seem to leave much for 
circulation.  Am I worried over nothing here???

PeterT

    
    Sounds to be a bit of overdone.  Most times you clear a passage
    above the insulation so the attic is able to get airflow.  Dosnt
    look like the heat in there has anyplace to go.  Did at one
    time some plan to sheetrock up there????  That maybe the case?
    
    If it were me, I'd open up things a little to get some of that
    heat out......
    
    JD 

>roof seem to come all the way up to the edge of the, uh, main beam (or
>whatever it's called that sits in the center and holds the /\ sections

ridge beam


>on either side to allow air to circulate, but there doesn't seem to be 
>any gap between the plywood and the centerline board.  I realize that the

When we installed a ridge vent on my house, we cut away about a 2" swath of
shingles/plywood on either side of the peak along the length of the peak.  Then
the ridge vent was nailed down, straddling this now 4" wide gap.  From the
attic, you can clearly see this 2" or so gap on either side of the ridge beam.
I think you might well be concerned that there is no air flow getting up into
the ridge vent.

But then, your brand of ridge vent might be different from mine, and might
require so little of a gap that you wouldn't be able to see it from inside the
attic.

-Chris

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              
    I have an offer on a house and I just had it inspected.
    The outcome of the inspection was good with one exception,
    the inspector was concerned about ice problems and condensation
    problems which might occur at the two valleys in the roof joining
    the main home and garage/familyroom section. The garage/familyroom section 
    is attached to the main house, as shown below, which creates
    two valleys. There is a bedroom above the garage and the family room
    has cathedral ceilings so ventalation can only be done between joists.
    There is a ridge vent at the top of each roof. The builder used
    Bituthane in the valleys to prevent leaks. He also used propa-vents
    between the joists and inserted insulation under the vents.
    Since this section of the roof ends at the valley how will it be
    ventilated? The builder insists there will not be a problem with
    condensation/ice dams/leaks, but since the valley prevents soffit-vents
    from being installed how does the roof get ventilated? I read in
    previous notes that a ridge vent should not be installed unless
    soffit vents at the bottom are installed, otherwise water may be drawn
    into the ridge vents and into the house. 
    
    Our home inspector said one solution is to add valley vents, but the
    builder doesn't know anything about valley vents. I also check Home
    Depot and they did not know anything about valley vents. The home
    inspector mentioned Alcoa (sp?) sells valley vents. Has anyone ever
    heard of valley vents? I have looked at many new homes and a hand full
    have this same design feature/problem. Even a $650,000 home in
    Southboro was designed this way! Don't know how a builder could ask
    $650,000 for a home with < 4000 sq ft. I would think material and labor cost
    would be less than half of that prices. It just surprised me when I
    asked the list price :-). They said the lot is worth over $200,000 and
    I believe it was about 1 acre. Maybe I should think about changing jobs... 
    
    Anyway, what do I need to do to determine if there will be any problems
    with ice damming or water condensation? I really want to buy the
    house, but I do not want to have problems with the roof or resale
    5 years from now. I was planning on having the builder provide 5-10 year
    warranty on labor/materials if we had a problem with this part of the
    roof, or just not buy the house.
                             
    Any suggestions? Need to sign the P&S soon so please reply if you have
    any thoughts.
    
    Thanks...
    Dave 
     
                        --------
                       |   |BR |
    	---------------\   |Ovr|
    	|              |\  |Gar|
	|  Main House  | \ |   |
        |--------------|---|   |
        |              | / |   |
        |              |/  |   |
      	---------------/   |FR |
    	   Valley here^|   |   |
                       ---------
           

    Can someone give my an estimate on much a roofer would charge to
    install ridge and soffit vents (including spaces to push the
    insulation back to allow air draw) in dormered cape with 32' roof line?
    

    
    I'm having a new roof put on and the ridge vents were included in the 
    base price, so I don't have them broken out.  I did however get a quote
    on soffits.  4" x 16" soffits installed were $15/soffit.
    The recommondation I received from Paul Cornell was to install the
    16" soffits every 4 feet.
    The main house runs 34' (8x4'=32')--8 soffits x 2 = 16.
    The family room run 18'' (4x4'=16')--4 soffits x 2 = 8.
    Total soffits = 24 x 15 = $360. 
    
    Hope this helps,
    Paul
    
    PS. This quote was in Mass.
    

    First the preface: " I am not an expert but have lived around houses
    			all my life"
    
    
    	I have never heard of a valley vent.  The roof line you sketched
    looks fine to me.  As long as the valley was properly flashed and 
    shingled I would expect no problems.   The under side of the roof should
    vent through the home and garage sections independantly.  There might
    be moss or mildew growth if the valleys are in deep shade and don't dry
    out quickly, but I would doubt it.
    
    			FWIW, 
    				DanF

    
    Dan,
    
    The underside of the roof in the section of concern is a room so
    it can only get air from the top vent and nothing from the bottom.
    
    /Dave
    

In other words you don't have an attic above that roof?  The ceiling should be well insulated,
with spacers (they are usually grey things made of some sort of fiber, shaped like:
-\______/-   These fit between the rafters, and create an airspace between the underside of the
roof and the insulation - the channel runs from the soffit to the ridge.

There are many many houses with roof lines like the one you drew, and they don't have valley
vents.  I frankly wonder if your house inspector knows what he is talking about.  On the other
side, a house inspector may mention everything that could possibly concievably go wrong with
a house, even if it is not likely or not cost effective to guard against.

Margaret.

What .0 stated about valleys is correct:

>    but since the valley prevents soffit-vents
>    from being installed how does the roof get ventilated? 

This is inherent in how valleys are framed, when two pitched roofs intersect
perpendicularly.  You just can't vent the intersection at the bottom ... I don't
know if this is solvable after the house is finished.

However, there are lots of houses around that are built like this, and I'm sure
some of them don't leak.  If the shingles have been woven correctly in the
valley, then there shouldn't be any leaking.  Another method I've seen is that
the entire length of the valley is flashed with a long piece of metal flashing,
and the shingles overlap this to within about 2-4" of the actual intersection of
the roofs.  What you actually see is a 4-8" width of metal running down the
entire valley with the shingles overlapped onto this at the sides.

Ice dams could be another matter.  We had awful ice dams last winter with our
nice little example of a valley, but then the shingling job was, in the words of
our (experienced) inspector: "I've never seen anything like that!", and we
didn't have soffit vents under either of the two roof overhangs (did have ridge
vents though).  I'm thinking about running heat cable for next winter (there are
gutters at this spot because this is the back entrance to the house).  Maybe you
shouldn't install gutters on this section of your house.

-Chris

          
    re .3
    
    Yes, there is no attic above that part of the roof. It does have
    propa-vents, but the channel runs from ridge vent to valley not
    the soffit vent because it ends at the valley. I have seen a few new
    homes built with this design so I am wondering if it really will be a 
    problem. Guess I will not know until I live in it for a while. The
    building inspector comes highly recommended and I believe he
    knows his work. Although, I do agree that a building inspector has
    to tell you everything which may go wrong so they will not get sued.
    What happened to the good ole days when you didn't have to worry
    about getting sued? 
    
    re .4
    
    I believe it was constructed so the valleys will not leak due to the
    installation of the bituthane. However, I read in other notes that
    the ridge vents should not be installed without soffit-vents since
    water may be drawn into the vents due to pressure differences. Do
    the manufactures put this warning in to protect themselves against
    law suites or can this actually happen? I don't see how it could be
    possible after looking at some of the ridge vents at Home Depot.
    
    
    Thanks for the replies...
    
    /Dave                 
    

    Our building inspector won't allow hicks vents.  He indicated 2
    problems,   1- anytime you put a ladder against the house roof, you end
    up denting/damaging the hicks vent. 2 - since they are the drip edge of
    the roofline, he indicated he has seen several cases where wind has
    driven drips/rain up and into the underside of the roof, 5 or 6 feet.
    This is unlikely to happen with soffit vents, since they are on the 
    underside, further away from rain runnoff.
    
    I have both on my house, soffit vents and on the lower roof I have
    hicks vents.  yup, the hick vents are all dented up from the ladder,
    even though I was very careful, knowing in advance of the possible 
    ladder damage potential...
    
    tom

    any concensus on the best type of ridge vent ?  I have seen 10'
    aluminum ones that don't have shigles over them, 4' 'cardboard'
    treated with something that gets shingeled over, and the 20' roll
    kind thats like a loose weave fibreglass.  Both the roll and
    the cardboard type one require you only hammer the nail part way
    in the aluminum one is nailed in place. any comments
    
                Dean 

    Seems to me they are called HEX VENTS not Hicks vents
    
    
    
    						/Dave
    

    My colonial had 2 gable vents and continous soffit vents. In attempt to
    keep the 2 living levels nearly the same temp I installed an
    electric gable fan with shutter this spring thinking it was the easiest
    way to go (NOT!). Anyway it helped but not as much as I expected
    so now I'm looking at alternatives.
    	1) I thought of adding a ridge vent but then do I still keep the
    gable fan or will it suck air from the ridge? (You can't just rely
    on ventilation around here with 90-100 degs and humidity-you need
    to power ventilate)
    	2) What about a 2nd gable fan on other side or one of those
    thru-the-roof power ventilators also on the opposite side of the 
    gable fan.
    	3) The gable fan has a thermostat which I set for 95- any
    lower and it runs 24hrs. Any suggestions on what attic temp
    should be?
    	4) There's also an optional humidistat for winter use of the
    fan. Do you think I now need this especially since I've essentally
    close off one of the gable vents with the lover?
    
    R u s s
    

    regardling cost by one noter
      I had an estimate for a ridge vent on my house, straight ranch
    76' long with center chimney. so ridge venting in two sections,
    about 30' EACH would have been $300, in Mass. Year old estimate. We
    already have soffit vents, the old style. I was in no rush because
    we had central a/c installed and it came with powered ventilator 
    in center of roof. Actually I wanted to go ahead and get it but
    he nevered call back to set up and I forgot myself
    
    regarding 182.107
      you cannot cool your house just by ventilating your attic. The best
    you can achieve is to reduce extra heat buildup in house because the
    attic is hot. If the attic floor is insulated well which it should
    be then that reduces the effect of a heated attic. The ridge vent
    would not help that much more except in the case of a ridge vent,
    with soffits nature does the moving of the air instead of you 
    paying the utility company to do it with the fan. With ridge vent
    I would definitely set thermostat on fan HIGHER so it only runs it
    if got really hot up there. 
    
    When the air is 95 degrees and humid outside then cooling off
    a well insulated attic is only going to have a little affect. You may
    be able to reduce the attic temperature a little more with a great
    deal of effort and expense, but the positive effect of this on
    the rooms in the house we be small.
    
    My suggestion would be a whole house fan. It will not help in all
    cases but it will help, especially at night to cool house, and they
    provide a small breeze which helps comfort level.
    
    they did studies of powered roof vents in arizona years ago, and the
    conclusion was they were not cost effective. Cheap to put in, but
    not effective and do cost to run. Recommended way to go was
    soffit/ridge. 
    
    If keeping a house comfortable in summer could be accomplished with
    soffit/ridge/ventilators/whole house fans or any combination of, then
    there would be no business for central a/c installers.
    
    Central a/c is very expensive, but it works. All others are much less
    expensive alternatives that work well some of the time, but do not
    work very well in hot sticky weather.
    
    				Harold
     
    

re .107&108

Ahh that makes sense -you're saying what causes the differences in temp between up/down
stairs is not heat radiating from hot attic but heat buildup within the house-which a
whole house fan would solve? Now, I already have central A/C AND use it continually 
June-Aug. Would it be worth it to use a whole house fan to occasionally release the
trapped heat?  

>     If the attic floor is insulated well which it should
>     be then that reduces the effect of a heated attic.

	Easy for you to say, ... but some of us own old homes (mines 130)
	with walk in attics..... (and of course in an old house there
	are 100's of other projects to do besides :-)

    I know what you mean by hundred's of projects. that is the definition
    of the joy of home ownership isn't it ?  
    
    I would not add whole house fan with A/C. Even on cooler days if you
    turn off a/c, open up windows and use a whole house fan, one side
    effect is you bring in a lot of moisture that you spent electricity
    on getting ride of. Next time it gets real hot, you close windows,
    turn on a/c and now it has to not only drop hot temperature but
    remove all that extra moisture. You would never use whole house fan
    while running a/c., whole house fan requires open windows to draw
    air. a/c wants opposite, closed windows to cool and dehumidify 
    recirculated air.
    
    				Harold
    
    
    

    
        RE: last
    > I would not add whole house fan with A/C. Even on cooler days if you
    > ...
    > turn on a/c and now it has to not only drop hot temperature but
    > remove all that extra moisture. You would never use whole house fan
    > while running a/c., whole house fan requires open windows to draw
    > ...
    
    Since I installed a WHF (whole house fan) AFTER I had central A/C,
    I guess I have to disagree with a couple points:
    
    1) There is no substitute for central AC on a 95 degree day. So for the
    	20 or 40 days throughout the year when it's blazing hot sun, I		
    	am continually reminded of how grateful I am to have it.
    
    2) Besides those 20 or 40 hot days, there are alot more days between
    	Spring-Summer-Fall when the air temp isn't so bad and the cool breeze
    	throughout the house that the WHF generates is perfect. In addition,
    	there are many DAYS we use the AC, where the temp outside drops nicely
    	in the evening. So at 7pm, you might want to shut the AC, open the
    	windows, and get that WHF breeze going through. It takes 10-20 minutes
    	to feel the effect of AC. You can feel the temp drop with the WHF in
    	2-3 minutes!
    
    3) While I agree with the last in that you don't use AC and the WHF at
    	exactly the same time, you still might use them in the same day, and
    	there are more days you'll use the WHF than the AC.
    
        Peter

    
    
    Hello!
    
    I have a house in Nashua, NH. Recently one piece of Ridge Vent fell
    off. I am planning to get rid of this aluminium ridge vent and replace
    it with Cora Vent. I would like to get this done quick. Could anyone
    refer someone who could install it at reasonable price??
    
    Also, I would like to add more insulation in my attic. I am planning to
    put R25. Again, could anyone refer someone who could install it at
    reasonable price.
    
    Thanks for all your help.
    
    Bharat
    

	DIR 1111.*  will help lead you to the many ridge vent notes.

    My attic has both a ridge vent and gable vents.  Unfortunately, one
    gable faces North-East, and when we get a nor'easter (rain, not
    snow), the wind blows the rain right through the gable vent into the
    attic.  It collects on the insect screen and runs down inside the wall,
    which is Not A Good Thing.  I've gone up in the attic to watch, so
    I'm reasonably confident of my analysis.
    
    So, what should I do about it?  Close up the North-East gable vent?

    with a ridge and soffit vents gable vents should be blocked
    
    
    		Dean

    Interesting -- it's a new house, and all these vents are original.
    I need to check to see how thorough the soffit venting is.

>    Interesting -- it's a new house, and all these vents are original.
>    I need to check to see how thorough the soffit venting is.

	Who ever said builders know what they're doing?  :-)

	The rationale behind soffit-and-ridge vents is to keep
the roof cold so the snow doesn't melt from house heat.  If properly
sized, not blocked, etc...then cold outside air will flow in through
the soffit vents, travel up under the roof sheathing, and exit out the
ridge vent.  The roof sheathing will stay cold, and any snow on it will
not melt from leaking house warmth.  Sunlight-induced or outside warmth
snow melt is ok - the water runs off the roof.  If it melts from below,
due to insufficient insulation or bad venting (the heat has to go somewhere...)
the water runs down under the snowpack until it passes over the outer wall
line, where the roof edge (exposed, boxed soffit, whatever) is still cold,
and freezes into the dreaded ice-dam.  As this builds up, the water can
back up and pool, and depending on your roof condition, slope, and other
variables, can then start coming in through the roof itself, between the
shingles.

	Gable vents will short-circuit the soffit vents, and provide an
easier path for air to enter the attic and leave via the ridge (which
usually gets a venturi-effect draw, pulling air out).  If your insulation
is great, then this may still be sufficient to exhaust any extra heat.
If your insulation is bad or leaky, especially at the tricky-to-do-properly
edges, then the heat will warm that part of the roof and give you trouble.

	Every house is different - you need to examine it carefully to
see why it's failing.  Any ice damming means you're leaking heat, but
you may not get water damage inside.  A perfect roof won't melt from
below, and your attic will always be at the outside temperature.  Repairs
are always tricky, certainly now, but some fixes aren't too hard, such as
making sure the insulation isn't blocking the vents you have by adding 
styrofoam-formed air ducts under the sheathing.  These are cheap at any
Home Depot sort of place.  Most other fixes are harder...

I understand how soffit and ridge vents are supposed to work,  but
it seems the entire system fails when the ridge vent is covered by
a foot snow.  Until the snow at the top melts, the heat is going to
build up, melt some snow, run down,  freeze and create and ice dam.

Garry

    Boy have I got a good one for all of you. Recently I purchased a 1910
    vintage antique colonial. It's a very solid house with absolutely no
    moisture damage at all. What amazes me most about my house is that
    there is absolutely no attic ventilation whatsoever. The only thing
    that could be construed as ventilation would be an attic dormer window,
    but since this window remains closed, that doesn't count.  My question
    is, since this house has been around for 86 years with no attic vents,
    what would be the effect if I was to install vents to aid in summer
    cooling.

 RE: .311  If your 86 year old is like my old 1910 vintage 3 family you may
 have "balloon style framing".. This is open from the cellar to the attic. 
It has both advantages, (easy to rewire), and disadvantages (no fireblocks,
no insulation).  

     In the summer we just opened the attic window a little and would have 
air flow from the cellar to cool the attic..  

    You would not need to add attic vents unless you insulate the outside 
walls and cut off the intended air flow..
        
Dave

	We bought our ranch December 1995.  We had bad ice dam problems
	last winter so since then we have had soffits and new gutters
	done.  We also had a ceiling heat/fan/light put in the bathroom.
	And after reading this note we will vent this out.  But, our problem 
	is worst.
	
	We added pull down stairs so we are using the attic for additional 
	storage, there is quite a deep carpet of insulation, we have slowly 
	been putting particle board down for flooring.  We decided to extend 
	the area and move down to the far right for Xmas stuff only used 
	once a year.

	What we found wasn't nice.  We actually have mold.  Localized in 
	one particular corner.  We are not sure what to do.  That end has a 
	small opening to a seperate roof over a breezeway which is unheated.  
	The breezeway area has little insulation.  We are new home owners 
	and are not sure what to do, we would like to start to help 
	ourselves and to not have to continue to run to $$ contractors.  

	What are our options.  Besides venting the bathroom fan out.  Do we
	need an attic fan.  Are we closing up the space by using it for
	storage i.e. boxes packed to high, too much stuff.  Do we need more
	insulation over the breezeway and why we it be the far corner the 
	opening and bathroom vent are at the opposite end of the house 
	closer to the louver vent.

	We would appreciate any help this file can give us!

	

	

    Thanks to all the people who made helpful suggestions.  I went up in
    the attic a couple weeks ago and approximately half of the spaces
    between the rafters had insulation covering the vents.  I opened all of
    them up.  I also looked at the ridge vent and the cut in the plywood
    looks fine.  I think it was installed properly.
    
      I have not been back up to see how the attic looks.  I hope to get up
    there soon and see if I still find moisture on the roof.
    
    							John