Conference 7.286::home_work

    I removed mine with a lot of effort.  There is a big spring in
    there that needs to be torn out.  Did you try turning it both ways?
    
    If you can get hold of the end of that spring with vice grips or
    something, try to rip it out.  Then the whole thing will come off.
    
    (There might be some easier way to do it, but I had to force it).
    
    BTW, you're not supposed to remove it.  It also prevents backflow
    if you hook up one of those automatic insectiside/fertilizer hoses
    that mixes solution with water as it come out your hose.  

     Apparently, a significant number of people poison themselves or
    their families or their neighbours through the process of backflow.
    
     Insecticide sprayers as was mentioned, filling pools, flushing
    out septic tanks, these and many other activities can contribute
    to a contamination of your and the communities water supply due
    to negative pressure in your plumbing system. Flushing toilets,
    automatic washers, and dishwashers all contribute to the creation
    of a negative water pressure.
    
     I would suggest that rather than remove a good safety feature (selling
    point) of your new home, that you have the builder repair or replace
    the defective unit.
    
     The backflow preventers on my new home work very well indeed. I
    would not remove them anymore than I would pull out the various
    smoke detectors, intrusion detectors and automatic lighting systems
    that I have in my new home.

    Unfortunately my builder is a slime bag and getting him to do such
    a little thing as replacing a backflow valve would be impossible.
    I was planning to remove it and put a new one on if I could get
    it off.  I tried to turn it both ways but I still had not luck.
    Can you see the spring that holds it on.  
    
    Joe

>        Can you see the spring that holds it on.  

    You should be able to, if you look up inside it.  The problem
    I had with mine (the reason I took it off) was because I couldn't
    tighten/remove a hose from it.  The valve would just turn with the
    hose.  
    I'm not really sure it's a spring.  But it's a wire about 1/16" thick.
    Maybe it's a retaining ring or something.  That's probably what
    it is.
    

    re. 4
    
    Did you just stick something inside the valve to try to pry it ring
    loose. I will take a look at mine when I get home tonight and see
    if there is a ring there.

<rathole alert>

>     Apparently, a significant number of people poison themselves or
>    their families or their neighbours through the process of backflow.

Well, it's happened once or twice at the very least.  "Significant" is a
relative term.  Certainly it has happened, but I wouldn't worrry about it any
more than I would worry about a shark attack while swimming off of Cape Cod -
and that has happened also.  I would not consider a backflow valve a selling
feature in the least - I would be surprised if anyone ever even noticed whether
they were installed - and I would not be at all concerned about their lack. 

Paul

I tend to agree with you, Paul, but I think the argument is that you'll
not only take the chance of poisioning your family, but possibly your
neighbors as well... 

Now granted, the probability of there being a catastrophic decompression 
of the water supply while you are spraying "agent orange" on your dandelions 
is pretty slim... but for the couple of bucks it costs to put the valve on 
the outside spigots, its a lifetime insurance policy that covers me 
from "neighborhood poisioning via water supply contamination" or something...

Of course, most water meters now have anti-siphon valves built in, so the 
neighborhood bit may be moot, but I wouldn't want to poision my family...

You chances of getting hit by lightning are directly proportional to the 
actions you take during a thunderstorm.

Bob

    I don't quite understand.....I have my own well and my own pump.
    I don't use my hose to spray chemicals but I do top off the pool
    once in a while. When I turn on my valve to use the hose water "comes
    out" because I have pressure....I have never had it suck water back
    in. Tell me how does all this bad stuff get into the water system?
    
    Jim

    
    
    I have the same problem with my 2 year old faucet. Water leaks out
    of a round plastic thing on the top of the faucet. When I asked my
    plumber to fix it he said my water pressure was too high (and destroyed
    whatever it is that prevents the siphoning action)  and he
    happily put a pressure reducer  at the water input to the house. Asking
    him to fix or replace the faucet cost me approx. $50 to fix something
    else! I don't understand the "repair" directions previously mentioned.
    If I take out the "spring", will that stop the leak?
    
    rob
    	
     

>        I don't understand the "repair" directions previously mentioned.
>    If I take out the "spring", will that stop the leak?

    It's not meant to stop the leak.  I was describing how to remove
    the anti-backflow valve.
    
    I pulled out a short thick wire from inside the thing using vice
    grips.  As I pulled it out it uncoiled like a spring.  But it may
    have been a retaining ring that holds the valve to ths faucet.
    Whatever it was, after I removed it, the valve came right off.
    
    It pulled out from above (between the faucet and the valve).  
    Not from inside (below).

    

     Of course all things are relative. To me significant is more than
    0. In other words, one persons or more than one persons well being
    is worth me using the safety features provided for during the
    construction of the home.
     Our building codes require devices such as this to try to reduce
    the incidence of problems to insignificant (zero events).
     The GFCI is another safety device that many people would question
    it's widespread use. Again, here is something in the home, an
    electrical device for protection that has been used for many different
    things other than just the plug in the bathroom. Mine are wired
    up to the lights in the bathroom as well. Interesting note, the
    electrical code stipulates that the bathroom light switch has to
    be at least 5 feet from the bathtub and/or shower. Again a safety
    feature that it is worthwhile having and not defeating. I would
    admit to many that the point on back siphoning on your plumbing
    is small, but in it's perspective, if we have zero poisinings as
    a result of useing these dandy little gadgets, IT WAS WORTH EVERY
    PENNY.

did ya'll know it is also required that your kitchen faucet be higher than
the rim of the sink, for the same reason - back siphoning? 

that's because IF you might leave kitchen sink filled to brim with poison, 
AND IF the water was somehow on, AND IF there was somehow a negative water 
pressure, your sink water (heaven forbid) might be drawn into the public 
water supply.

if, if, if....it's enough to drive ya' nuts.

craig

re: .12

You're right...it IS all to protect our butts...

See, you and I are smart enough not to do any of the obviously stupid 
things that could contaminate the water supply, but if you've watched
and network television, or seen the subscription rate of the National
Enquirer et al, or the amount of money donated to TV evangelists, you'd
realize that these kinds of protections are necessary because there are
a LOT of idiots out there!   8^)

Bob

    Well I went home last night and looked at my backflow valve and
    I did not see anything that resembles a spring or anything to that
    sort.  I proably have a different kind.  I am getting so frustrated
    with the stupid valve that I might just cut it off with a hacksaw,
    if I damage the faucet I will just have to replace it.  Before I
    attempt this final move does anyone have any other suggestions of
    how else to get it off.  I noticed that in one of the replies someone
    said that they had a plumber remove it, do you know how he got it off?
    The also said that the valve was damaged by too high a water pressure,
    well I think I do have too high a water pressure, does any one know
    what the correct pressure in the house should be, I can just put
    a flow restricter in the water line feed.  Any more help would greatly
    be appreciated.
    

	Concerning a few of the replies...

re: removing the backflow valve:

	I had to take mine off at my previous house because it leaked also.
I don't remember the twisting I went through, but it did involve a pair
of needle nose pliers and a lot of force.

re: a private well, pump, etc.

	You should do some reading on where the water in your well comes
from. The water underground arrives there in the form of underground streams,
giant cisterns, etc. You could get or give contamination to the water supply
from 20 miles away. This is why it is advisable to test your water occasionally.

	I read somewhere recently that as little as 1 quart of gasoline/oil,
etc can contaminate an HUGE (how's that for exact! I don't remember the number)
amount of water.

								Mark

    I finally figured out how to remove the backflow valve.  I used
    a big monkey wrench and twisted away at the valve with a downard
    motion.  I finally removed the valve and I did not have to remove
    the srping.  
    
    

                <<< MEIS::PUB$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ASKENET.NOTE;4 >>>
                            -< Ask The Easynet V4 >-
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Note 2442.0                Looking for water fountain!                 2 replies
AUNTB::WARNOCK "Todd Warnock @CBO"                   11 lines  21-MAY-1990 07:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm trying to find a water fountain that attaches to an outdoor faucet. 
    I recall, somewhere in a catalog, a small water fountain that screws
    directly to an outdoor faucet - perfect for kids with muddy feet that
    are outside all day!  (I know, a hose is cheaper and easier - I still
    want a water fountain !)
    
    Any ideas ?
    
    Thanks !
    
    Todd
    

    I'm not sure on this one, but you might try calling/writing the
    McMaster Supply Co. (or some such name) in Chicago.  They sell
    an unvbelievable amount of stuff, including drinking fountains
    (the built-in kind).  I'm not sure they have the kind the attach 
    to an outside faucet, but they might.

    In Atlanta, there is a store called Brookstone.  They also provide a
    catalog service I believe.  They are kind of a hardware, gadget,
    expensive, nicknack type of store.  I think I have seen them carry
    something like that.  
    
    I just called 800 directory assistance and they don't have a 800 number
    listed for Brookstone.  The stores are in the malls and they don't open
    for another 45 minutes.  When they open, I will give them a buzz and
    see if they have a catalog service and if they are in Atlanta only.

    RE .2
    
    Brookstone's is a chain - there is also a store in Boston (Quincy
    Market Area).
    
    Other options might be one of the seasonal stores that caters to 
    swimming pools & supplies or the myriad of mail order catalogs that
    arrive seemingly on a daily basis. 
    
    If all else fails, the base noter may want to cross post the note in
    the Consumer conference (there used to also be a mail order catalog
    conference - not sure if it's still around).
    
    ep

    I just called Brookstone.  95 stores across the USA.   Home office is
    in New Hampshire.  You can call 603-924-9541 to get on there mailing
    list.  The guy I spoke with said they used to carry this item but don't
    any longer.  He suggested calling the above number and they might be
    able to offer a place which does carry that item.
    
    Happy Hunting.

Re: .0

My wife just recently purchased a drinking fountain like you are looking for
from Lillian Vernon (sends catalogs all the time).  If I can remember, I will
find out what the price was and if they have a phone number.

		Regards,
				Bill Shively

    
    as someone mentioned...i'd think the specialty garden catalogs
    would have it.  Like 'Plow and Hearth', or 'Gardener's Eden', 
    or somesuch.
    
    or, there's a pricey garden shop in Newton on rt. 16 (or is
    it Washington...) Clapper's ...they might have what you're 
    looking for.
    
    deb
    

Washington street, just west of the armory.

    Washington St ?  In Columbia, SC ? (That's where I'm from :-) )
    
    Maybe a phone number or address would help !
    
    Thanks  - I'm glad to know where to get one (almost) now !
    
    Todd

    
    oops...should've qualified that with NEWTON, MASS.
    
    sorry!
    
    looks like mail order may be the way for you to go...unless
    your local garden shop carries it.
    
    deb
    

    Exterior faucet is stuck (probably corrosion) shut.  It's a cold water
    faucet with my lawn hose attached.  I am hesitant to touch this with
    a wrench to loosen.  I tried wd40 to lubricate, but cannot get it close
    enough to the area that is stuck.
    
    Any recommendations on how to safely loosen this shut off/on faucet?
    
    I'm a little nervous (past experience) about forcing the issue
    if you know what I mean....
    
             Carol

    You can remove the entire valve stem from the faucet to see what is
    wrong.  Simply take a wrench to the large "nut" where the spindle
    enters the faucet.  A couple of squirts of wd40 or penetrating oil
    wouldn't be bad.  You can buy replacement valve stems from the plumbing
    supply shop.
    
    -al

    My house has a pair of exterior faucets (as many do).  Each has a valve
    in the basement ceiling to shut them off for the winter.  I've seen the
    kind that have the actual valve 8, 10, even 12 inches behind the
    exterior portion -- in the warm part of the house, so you don't need an
    additional valve.
    
    Can anyone offer any experience with these, or any ideas about the
    expense to have them installed?  (I think they're less than $20, at
    least at SPAG'S -- although DYI plumbing is illegal in Massachusetts.)
    
    Dick

    	When I built my house 10 years ago the plumber I had told me they
    weren't very reliable so I used the standard ones.

    Joe

    I have several sill cocks in use for six years with no problems.
    
    A vaccuum breaker version is available from Spags for about $15.
    
    Anyone who can reliably sweat a joint has the ability to install one.
    
    My opinion....only way to go.
    

 
    What would be the benefit in this?  A separate interior valve allows
    you to do maintenance on the exterior faucet without having to shut off
    the main.  You can also to shut off, drain and leave open the faucet
    pipe in winter, which is the way the water company usually likes it.  
    
    [There may even be a local code requirement that all faucets have a
    separate shut off valve.]
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
              

My house has two of those "frost proof" exterior faucets, with about a 12
inch long stem back to the valve.

Two years ago, we had nine straight days when the temperature never broke
zero.  One of the faucets burst a pipe, but only enough of a burst to cause
a leak, not a flood.  The leak was discovered about two months later, having
caused soggy carpeting in a bedroom.  I ended up gutting the room to replace
the damaged flooring and paneling.

At the location of the other exterior faucet, there is evidence that the
interior wall has been cut and patched, most likely to repair the faucet.

I now have cut-off valves for both my exterior faucets.

We have *very* good water pressure in our house (we're only about a 2
minute walk from the town well).  We had one of these
actual-valve-inside-the-house spigots installed, and it chattered &
vibrated most annoyingly, I presume because of the water pressure.  So
we had it replaced with a standard one.  Maybe the one we had was a
cheap brand, I don't know...

-Chris

The purpose of freeze-proof faucets is to not have water in the piping so close
to the outside that it freezes and bursts the pipe.  Even with a shutoff
inside, unless you close the shutoff AND drain the water from the faucet, you
can have problems.

I installed a freeze-proof faucet along with an interior shutoff, and have had
no problems with it.  When you install it, make sure that the long tube
slants slightly so that when the faucet is off, water drains outside.

				Steve

    I'd like to second Steve's advice.  We also have freeze-proof faucets
    with an interior shutoff.  We have had no problems an I think they are
    great.  We got them from a local plumbing supply house and the cost
    about $25 a piece.
    
    Rhonda

    
      What would be the advantage of having a 'freeze-proof' faucet AND
    a shutoff? In 4 houses I've lived in (mine, my folks, rentals) plus
    my in-laws, I've always had just shut-offs with no problems at all.
    If you close the shut-off with the outside faucet on, you shouldn't 
    have a problem. Unless the shutoff is next to the exterior wall.
    
      Dave 

    The advantage is you dont have to think about shutting off or turning
    on the shutoff.  Our shutoff was already there few feet inside the
    house so it made sense to leave it there when we had the freeze-proof
    faucets installed.  It's nice in the winter when you need to access the
    outside faucet and dont have to go into the basement, turn on the
    shutoff valve and then remember to turn it off when you're done.  It's
    also nice to have the shutoff incase you need to repair the faucet.
    
    I dont think you need to have both, but I like the convenience of
    having both.
    
    Rhonda

I have the shutoff so that I can 1) turn it off to work on the faucet, 2)
be able to restrict use of the faucet (good if you have prankish neighbors,
though I haven't had this trouble.)  In general, I put shutoffs anywhere
I think they may be handy (I use ball valves exclusively).

The faucet itself should be about $15; certainly under $20.  Some local
codes may require one with an integrated vacuum breaker.

			Steve

One minor gotcha.

The pipes to our 2 external faucets are slanted so that the water drains back 
to the internal shutoff's drain plug.  If we replaced these with the 
freeze-proof variety, we would have to move the hole in the wall just enough 
to make them drain the other way.  That was enough to make me decide to do the
extra work every winter and spring.

Re: .11

Quite right.

		Steve

    RE: 9
    
        I can see the use for the convenience factor.....
    
        Thanks..Dave

    Hi,
    
    I own a duplex with electric water heaters and the bathrooms are on the
    second floor. My tenants called me last night and said that the hot water 
    faucet in the bathtub wouldn't shut off completely. I checked it out
    and when you turn off the hot water you can hear a faint pressure and 
    then the water will come dribbling out. Seems that the hot water faucet
    is turning on by itself. Hot water heaters and faucets are 2 years old!
    
    My tenants also mentioned that they have lots of air in the hot water when
    they first turn it on. Goes away after a few moments. They are only
    getting air in the hot water in the second floor bathroom NOT in the
    kitchen. I checked the hot water heater thermostat and it is set at 125. 
    
    They would like a new faucet but I think the problem might be that high
    pressure air is somehow finding its way up to the bathroom (highest
    point in the system) and forcing the tub hot water faucet to turn on.
    
    Am I all wet? :-)  What can I do? What should I look for?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dick Daigle

    Check the pressure relief valve on your hot water heater to be sure it
    isn't stuck.  What style of valve is on the tap?  I can't imagine a
    valve that can be forced open by (reasonable) water pressure...  Maybe
    the seat is bad, and the "faint pressure" is just the sound of the
    first bit of air/water squirting past.

    wierd...

    
    The "high pressure air" might be H2 and/or O2 electrolyzed out of the
    water in the electric heater; my understanding is that all electric
    heaters do this a bit, and that a bad element can exacerbate the situation.
    
    Air can also be introduced into the lines by faulty pumping or
    monentary pressure loss, but those are outside problems that should
    affect both sides of the house and hot and cold supplies.
    
    My 2� says your tenant has a bad heater element and possibly a leaky
    hot water faucet.
    

    We had a problem with our hot water like this.  When we had well water,
    it was acidic enough that it ate the valve seat a bit, which in turn
    would eat away the washers faster than normal.  As a result, you would
    turn off the water, and as the faucet cooled, the contraction would
    allow water to drip, then dribble.  Our plumber smoothed the valve seat
    and replaced the washers, after we converted to town water, and we have
    not had any problems since.

    
    
    Is the water pressure to the house around 60psi?
    
    Cracked seat or bad washer in the faucet i'd say...
    
    Dito on the HW tank....
    
    JD

    
    Here at SHR we have a similar problem.
    
    Shrewsbury water has a fine grit in it depending on which
    source thier pumping from.  We notice the difference in the 
    filters that we have on certain non potable lines.
    
    At times, the bathroom sink fawcetts will actually back off
    about 1/8 of a turn after you close it.  We figure it's the fine
    grit getting on the threads and reducing friction by acting like
    microscopic ball bearings.  To remedy this we just remove the
    stem, wash the threads with a soapy brush, rinse and re-install.
    Work fine after that.
    
    It's either that or when we remove the stem the little incarcerated
    spook has an escape route!  :^)))))))))))))))
    
    Fred
                                                                    

  When I worked at a Digital plant (LMO) in Marlboro a few years ago, the hot-
water faucets in the men's room turned on by themselves, not just a dribble,
but full blast. They must have wasted $1000 or more worth of hot water before
they got the problem fixed. In that case, I think the problem was bad faucet
design, in that the friction between the moving parts of the faucet was so low
as to allow the water pressure to rotate the screw threads.
  This is more likely to happen with hot water faucets than cold because hot
water reduces friction more.
  I also had an experience in my parents' house where the hot water faucet would
initially shut off tight and then drip when it cooled off. This is a different
and less serious problem.

    
    Bob,
    
    Here at SHR we know it's the fine silt which acts like bearings
    and reduces the friction.  Both hot'n cold do it.
    
    Fred

    Well, my brother's buddy is a plumber and he stopped by last week to
    look at the problem. Diagnosis: faucet was worn already and pressure
    relief valve wasn't working correctly.
    
    I replaced the faucet in the bathtub. The tub is one of those old 
    clawfoot tubs (excellent shape!) and needs the faucet with a diverter 
    for a showerhead. Somerville lumber has these for 45 bucks. My brother's
    friend installed a new pressure relief valve for free. I'm happy and
    most importantly, my tenants are happy. Thanks for all the advice and
    info.
    
    ~Dick Daigle

    
    I always thought the pressure relief valve was a last-ditch safety
    feature to prevent an overheated water heater from becoming a bomb.
    It should not periodically relieve pressure in an otherwise properly
    operating system. I'm confused as to how it helped solved the
    problem...