Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    
    I have a 42in fan with a 36in downrod on a cathedral ceiling
    in a smaller room (9x14). Works ok. If i were to do it over
    I might go for a larger fan. I have a large familty room at 
    my home which I plan to buy a 52in 5 blade with a 24 or 36 in
    downrod.
    
    I understand that if you want to move heat in the winter you 
    need a reversing type (most are), and the slower they can rotate
    the less wind chill they will create. One of the problems I have
    heard of is that some fans are kind of noisy at the slow speeds.
    They hum.

    
    	I don't have a ceiling fan but my father just purchased one.
    After doing a little research he found the following...
    
    	(1) Buy American. I know it sounds patriotic but the fans with
    		motors that were made in the USA have more windings
    		on the motor and thus they run smoother and quieter.
    
    	(2) Don't bother with name brands ie. Casablanca. The only thing
    		that you are paying all that money for is the name
    		(just like designer jeans).
    
    	(3) 5 blade fans can run slower (and quieter) yet produce more
    		circulation than 4 blades.
    
    	(4) A fan with a Rheostat control provides infinite variable
    		speed control. This is worth the extra $25, especially
    		if the low speed on a 3 speed fan is still too fast. 
                                                                      
    
    	As for specific names, I don't have any but this is one item
    that might be worth a little personal investigation so you find
    one to match your taste.
                        
    
    Glenn

    I put a fan at the top of the stairs in my house last winter to
    improve the air circulation so that the upstairs would not be cooler
    than the downstairs (forced hot air heat).  It has a 8" downrod
    and the light hangs a bit lower than that.  Even at the lowest speed,
    it accompolishes the task quite well.  Since my ceilings are not
    quite 8' high, the bottom of the light is just over 6' off the floor.  
    Because I'm not tall this isn't a problem for me, but if I were
    to do it again, I'd opt for a ceiling hugger variety.  I've read
    articles that say the ceiling huggers don't do the job as well,
    but when you don't have the height for a "standard" model they're
    a better choice.
    
    Rich

I installed a Hunter fan in my last house.  It was suspended from a 13' 
cathedral ceiling in a room that I heated with wood.  I also installed a 
themostat such that when the ceiling heated up, the fan turned on.  

Noise?  You probably couldn't hear it if you were sitting on top of it!  I'm
not exactly sure how the mechanism worked, but you filled it with 2 oz of oil
when it is installed.

Reversing?  No.  and I still don't know why you need to...

Cost to operate?  only 40 watts!  that's under a dime a day non stop.

Speeds?  2 but I only used low.

Cost?  that's the killer.  I paid around $150 for it over 7 years ago, but it's
a great fan.

-mark

    re: .4
    
    Thanks for the good comments, Mark.  But how do you maintain the
    fan that's on a cathedral ceiling?  I'm shying away from the brass
    trimmed models because I don't want to get out a ladder to polish
    (and dust) them every week.  Does it need to be oiled on a regular
    basis?  Do you have a switch beside the thermostat?  Did you wire
    this down to the wall, or do you have a cord hanging in the middle
    of your room?
    
    Elaine
    

    I installed two, 42" fans in my living room. The room is 13'x26'
    and I spaced the fans at about the 7' and 19' mark on the lenght
    of the room. These fans are 5 bladed, ceiling huggers and have globe
    lights underneath. If I say so myself, it looks great. I run them
    on low (3 sp.) and they really do make a difference, especially
    when it is very humid. I highly recommend the 5 blade over the 4.
    

    I just installed a fan that I purchased in K-Mart, on sale for $21.00.
    It's 36", 3-speed, reversible, 4-blades, made in Tawain and quiet.
    It's in the baby's room and we use it to cool the room when he's
    sleeping.  I've had no problems.  One thing about installing
    it though.  There was no ceiling joist near enough to the middle
    of the room for me to hang the fan from, so I got a piece of scrap
    2 X 4, nailed it between the joists and connected the fan to that.
    Cost to me -- 43 cents.  Beats the $13.95 that they're charging
    for ceiling fan hangers.

    Mike

just as a footnote on Hunter fans, they weigh in at around 50lbs!  the body is
cast iron.

-mark

    Cast iron?  Are you serious?  I'd better be sure there's good solid
    frame to mount that to!
    
    What stores carry Hunter fans?
    
    Elaine
    

    
    	Ditto on the Hunters...I have installed 2 of them for my father-
    in-law and they are quiet at the lowest speed..My brother-in-law
    bought a foreign made fan and it is noisy at the lowest speed...
    	
    	Hunter fans can be found at Leachmere's...and Hunter makes about
    10 different kinds..the one that is cast iron is over 200 bucks
    now..the ones I put up cost around 90. They are 42'' reversible
    hugger models. I don't know the exact model no. Weight: the hunter
    motors on the ones I installed actually hang from the plate that
    is connected to the ceiling box..they say it cuts down on vibration..
    the motor was heavy but it did not weigh 50lbs...But I do not advise
    using the fixture box as the only support for the fan...Mounting
    it wasn't that hard since I could get at the ceiling box from the
    attic..The fan comes with a mounting plate that fits over the ceiling
    box. The screw holes are standard but the mounting plate has 4 more
    holes placed further out on the plate for added strength..by holding
    the mounting plate over the ceiling box, I scribed with a pencil
    where the other holes would be..then taking my drill, I drilled
    two holes through the ceiling...Going up in the attic, I noticed
    where the new holes went through the ceiling and then I nailed 2
    pieces of 2x4 between the ceiling joists covering the holes..back
    down stairs, I now mounted the plate to the ceiling box and then
    drove 2 screws through the holes I had drilled into the 2x4's above..
    Presto, I could hang from the ceiling plate if I wanted to..and
    after a year in use, they are still running fine...
                                                       
    								bill..g.
    
    p.s. The reversible fans are great..sometimes you want air flow
    on you and the other times you want air flow upwards..the latter
    is great when sleeping at night cause it sucks in the outside air
    rather than having air blown on you all night..
    

    What kind of wiring do you need for a reversible fan?  3-conductor?
    

    RE: what kind of wiring
    
    You only need two conductor (hot and netural)  If you have a light
    kit on the fan and you wish to control it from a wall switch then
    you may want 3-conductor (14-3).
    
    mac

    So how do you reverse the fan?  A switch on the fan itself?  

>        So how do you reverse the fan?  A switch on the fan itself?  

    That's how I reverse mine.  I have a wall switch to control the
    speed and a switch on the fan, which I can hit using a long stick,
    to control the direction.
    
    Yes, I supposed I could have tapped into that switch and moved it
    to the wall, also.
    

    
    
    RE .8 K-MART 
    
    I bought the 42 inch, 4 blade, 3 speed, reversible,  ceiling hugger 
    and installed it a couple of weeks ago. It is quiet at all 3 speeds 
    and on the high speed really moves a lot of air. I may consider 
    moving it from the center of the room to about the 1/3 mark and adding 
    another fan at the 2/3 mark to get a more even distribution tho since 
    the room is 14x24 feet. My 6'4" son-in-law can walk under it
    comfortably. 

    re: .17
    
    Ralph,
    
    Was the article on ceiling fans in general?  I'd like to know the
    issue.
    
    Elaine

    The Practical Homeowner article on ceiling fans is in the latest
    issue (August 1987), and is pretty general.  It has topics on
    placement, choice and installation.
        
    Rich

    re: .17, .19
    
    Thanks for the pointer to the article.  It was very interesting.
    It didn't exactly help me decide, however.  I'm used to consumer
    reports.  It doesn't say what's quiet, what's not, what size the
    motors were, etc.  But names and addresses of manufacturers is useful.
    
    re: .11
    
    Bill:  You notice the difference in the reversible?  My friend who
    is helping me shop and install this fan is not convinced it makes
    a difference (ala .4).  Afterall, it's still circulating air around
    the room, right?
    
    Elaine
    

                The idea behind the reversible fan is so that you don't
        get any direct "drafts" blown on you in the winter. This makes
        you feel warmer because of the lack of the cooling effect that
        moving air has.
                
                You argue that the air has to move for the fan to do any
        good - and you are right. The purpose of the fan in the winter
        is to stir the air gently to make its temperature even. It
        doesn't have to make a breeze sufficient for you to feel to do
        this. If it is blowing down, the odds of being in an area where
        the air was moving enough to feel are much higher than the odds
        with the fan blowing up.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
                
  BTW - You want just the opposite in the summer. The breeze is what
        (when combined with your sweat) actually cools you. Not the mix
        of the air.

    
    re: .20
    
    	I can only ditto what .21 said and can only speak for my father-
    in-law (I have not installed mine), when he says he loves the
    fans, both in winter and summer and believe me, he is affected by
    the heat of summer more than most...Go with the reversable, I doubt
    it costs more since most of the fans sold today are reversable.
    
    								bill..g.
    

    I'm looking for a ceiling fan for the new master bedroom (15x24)
    in the addition we're putting on; based on the previous reponses
    to this note we went out to Lechemere to look at the Hunters.
    
    The supply there of hunters is limited; also the Hunter line's prices
    have a big gap: the top of the line is $300, the next one down is
    only $99-$129.  The only difference is the cast iron and the warrentee
    (lifetime vs 5 yr).
    
    But the real confusion is over the comments of US vs foreign models.
    I checked out a bunch of them, and the weight/solidness of all of
    them are the same; there seemed to be comments in the previous
    responses that the foreign ones were not built as well, that the
    Hunter's were bigger/solider/etc., but I did not see much evidence
    on the outside that this was actually the case.  The brand we were
    looking at case CODEP.  Thre was another, forgot the name, which
    did not have MADE IN <foreign country> on it, that also looked good.
    
    Does Hunter make any fans with lights, and are there other stores
    selling Hunter that have better selections than Lechemere, especially
    in the Worcester area?
    
    thanks,-reed
    

    I found Hunter at K-mart this past weekend.

    Sommerville Lumber carries Hunter also.

>     -<K-mart -> Hunter >-
    
    They're on sale there now.  Very low prices.
    

    
    re: .23
    
    	My problem with the foreign-made fans is that they humm on their
    lowest setting..That does not mean that all foreign made fans humm
    or are built shabby..I have installed 2 hunters(95.00) and they
    don't make any noise at their slowest speed..before you by, if it
    is possible, listen to the fan..I know this will probably be hard
    but if you can, do it..also, if you know anyone else with ceiling
    fans, ask them or go to their house and listen to their fan(s) at
    various speeds..This is how I found out that this foreign made fan
    was noisy at a slow speed..Mind you, it did not break my ears or
    anything but I want a quiet fan for my bedroom....
    
    Light kits: Hunter sells the light kits seperate from the fan as
    most fan makers do..that way you can select the type of light assembly
    you want..
    							bill..g.

The July/August edition of Old House Journal has a superb article on the
history of the ceiling fan, with suggestions and mfg's of fans.

    For anyone that may still be interested.....
    
    Lechmere has the Hunter fan on sale this week  July 19- July 25.
    It is a (48") 4 blade, 3 speed reversible fan.  Regular price 99.99
    
    Sale Price  79.98.  
    
    P.S.  The light kit is not included.
    
    

    I've got two ceiling fans of the same brand, both are equiped with 
    a 3 speed pull chain (hangs from the fan motor). On one of the fans 
    I've connected a variable speed control (which is supposedly designed 
    for ceiling fans), and causes it to hum at some speed settings.
    The fan without the variable speed control never humms (at any speed).
                                                                         
    After speaking with people at the stores (which sell these things)
    I've discovered that the only types of fans that are guaranteed
    not to hum with a variable speed control are the DC type fans (like
    the Casablanca and the more expensive brands).
    
    If you don't need the wall mounted variable speed control and would
    be happy with the 3 speed pullchain (which hangs from the fan),
    you can purchase the less expensive brands. Otherwise, It's $200+
    to guarantee a perfectly quite fan!
                     

    Can someone comment on the UNIVERSAL brand sold at Spag's?
    
    Thanks.
    

>        Can someone comment on the UNIVERSAL brand sold at Spag's?

    I have 2 of them.  They work fine.  No problems with either of them.
    
    They're not perfectly quiet, but I don't care.
    

    I've had a Sears variable speed ceiling fan for the past 5-6 years and it
    is now suffering from "arthritis" (or whatever).  The variable speed
    control is an SCR or similar electronic speed control.  The motor
    no longer has any torque. For a while, it would tend to stall at
    low speeds but now it simply won't start. If I push the blades by
    hand, they will spin for a while and then die. Is it likely that
    there is a problem with the motor, or, as I suspect, that there
    is something wrong with the solid-state speed control? I'm not averse
    to taking the control apart and trying to repair/replace it but
    I wouldn't want to tamper with the motor.
    
    Dave

    Can't believe there isn't a topic on ceiling fans but it isn't in
    the obvious places in 1111.
    
    I have a vacation home with a main room with a chalet type 45 degree
    pitch cathedral ceiling.  It's heated by electric heat (ouch). The
    heating system barely makes it on cold days, and the obvious reason
    seems to be that a lot of it is heating the upper half of the room
    which makes for warm spiders up top and cold people at floor level.  A
    trip up a ladder confirms this.(The house is pretty tight otherwise,
    and the size of the system is at or above the recommended BTUs/sq ft). 
    
    A solution seems to be one of those ceiling paddle fans.  But neither
    of us like the way they look (do they have to be so big and typically
    full of fake-ornate antique details - our decor is very contemporary!)
    
    Another problem is it it's be a bitch to put in at that height and
    get the wiring up there in some decent-looking way.  So I'd like
    to get some assurance that it's the right thing to do before I commit
    to doing it.
    
    Any comments?
    

    One way or another you're going to have to get wiring up towards
    the ceiling for some device be it a ceiling fan or a blower.
    
    Not all ceiling fans are full of ornate antique looking features.
    There are many on the market that have that ultra-modern contemporary
    look.  Casablanca even has an art-deco line.  You could buy the vanilla
    industrial models that you see hanging from the ceiling of warehouses.
    
    For a more creative approach, I've seen where a cylindrical duct,
    usually painted some nice color, which runs along the apex of the
    ceiling, and it has a vent along the bottom of it.  A blower is
    connected somewhere to the duct and blows air downwards.
    
    -al

A look at 111.86 (Ventilation) turned up note 1279, which has 33 responses.

Paul

Ceiling fans seem to be a semi-religious thing.  I like them, but mostly
in the summer.  My brother (when he was living up here in New England)
swore by them all year long.  A number of people don't like them ever. 
I don't know who can make the determination for you.  You might try
setting one up temporarily and taking it back if it doesn't suit you,
though you'd have to be careful to make it look unused... 

For getting wire up to the ceiling, my brother put the wire into a swag 
chain -- like used for hanging lights -- and it looks OK in his 
semi-tropical apartment.  I don't know how that would look for you, but 
it's an option to consider.

An alternative to the paddle fans is a fan that looks something like a
whit cannister anchored to the ceiling.  It pulls air in at the side and
blows it straight down at a pretty good velocity.  I don't know who
makes them, but I used to see them in a lot of the Yuppie catalogs you
get by having an AMEX card.  Maybe someone out in Noterland has one? 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    There are some contemporary fans made by "Homestead".  You might
    like the looks of these because the lines are very clean.  We
    are looking at ceiling fans too, and don't like a lot of the
    styles on the market.  We may buy one of these.  

    I'm not sure if this is the alternative .-2 mentioned, but ...
    I saw an interesting item in an old Solar Component Corp. catalog.  It's
a long plastic (looked like 4 mil poly drop cloth) tube, maybe 8" diamater,
that hangs from the ceiling down to head-height or so.  At the top of it is a
powerful? fan that blows heat down the tube.
    It's designed for large warehouses with 40' ceilings or whatever.  Don't
know about colors.
    How "modern" is your place?   :-)  Actually, you could hook up this tube
to the flue of a fake free-standing fireplace.  Then you could get real heat
from it!  ... oh, brother
    They're on Valley St. in Manchester, NH ... uhhh 603-625-9677.  (Actually,
what I've given you is a phone number from a two-year-old phone book, for a
place that I haven't visited in 3 years or so, that USED TO have a catalog.
Whether or not any of this is still current is open to interpretation.)

    Well, I have three fans in my house, and to tell you the truth,
    I dont like them at all.  They are all on rheostats so I can adjust
    the speed, plus there reversible.....I think if you had a contemporary
    with a very high ceiling they would do the job.....I have  a vaulted
    ceiling in my bedroom and thats the only place I can feel a
    difference..
    Rick   

    
    Does anyone have a GE ceiling fan or ave any comments about them?
    I'm in the market for a ceiling fan for a cathedral ceilinged room.
    Friends of mine have GE ceiling fans throughout their new contemporary.
    They think these are the best because they are very quiet, american
    made and generally cost less than Hunters.  They bought all their
    stuff at The Fan Store in Framingham and the person there highly
    recommended GE fans.    I want a reliable (obviously) plain
    white, variable/reversable speed, QUIET ceiling fan.  Based on my
    friends opinion on the GE, I'm trying to decide on that or the 
    Hunter.
                       
    Thanks, Kathy

    I have to disagree with you.  I have a large Hunter in my living
    room, and during the winter, it does a great job of distributing
    the (steam radiator) heat throughout the room.  When it's not on,
    I get cold spots in the room.  When it's on, the whole room (including
    the far corners and the area near the floor) are (almost) the same
    temperature.
    
    
    -bill

    
    
    More on ceiling fans is in the consumers note. 
    
    I happen to think they work fine but the house I'm in now only has
    7.5' ceilings so the would be ineffective.
    

    re: .8  If you get a dropped one it could also be very painful.
    
    We have a 24x24 family room with a 12' vaulted ceiling.  I put in
    a contemporary Casablanca fan.  You can get them as kits for an
    expensive price or you can mix and match lights, paddles etc. for
    a very expensive price. (guess which the wife wanted...$500 almost)  
    I really like it in the summer.  You turn it up to "take-off" speed 
    and it really moves the air around.  It is good in the winter too.  
    It is reversible (air goes down for summer, up for winter) has six
    speed settings, and six light settings - all controlled from a three
    switch unit in the wall.
    
    The box was wired by the builder so that was done.  The fun part
    was installation.  You can't assemble it in the air very easily
    and it is almost impossible to assemble on the ground and then carry
    the thing at arms length up a ladder with 52" paddles under your
    armpits and install it at the top.  I did it the almost impossible
    way.
    
    Stan

    
    I don;t have a fan or high enough ceiling to warrant one but ...
    
    Don't you mean down for the WINTER and up for the SUMMER ???
    
    I always thought you wanted to get the warm air down off the ceiling
    in the winter to help the heating.

    
    
    re: .9 Build it all in one spot??
    
    When I put the fan up in the other house and the one in my mother's
    place the little instruction sheet suggested that it be partially
    assembled on the ground, then hook the housing through one of the
    moubnting holes onto a hook that came with the kit. ( the hook screws
    into the ceiling mounting plate) Do the wiring -- WITH THE POWER
    OFF AT THE CIRCUIT BREAKER -- fix the motor in place and then put
    the blades on. It definitely helps to have 2 people there, one to
    be on the ladder and one to do the fetch and carry of droppe dnuts
    or tools but it is fairly easy. 
    
    RE: .10 direction of aiar flow
    
    It all depends on what is comfortable for you but the theory is
    that down in summer gets the trapped air away and moving out of
    the house and up in winter moves the warm air down the walls so
    there is a sort of warm air dam passing over windows and door 
    openings.
    
    Two things to be certain of when installing a fan are :
    
    A-- make absolutely sure that the mounting plate is secure and that
    the motor unit is tight to the mounting plate. There should be no
    movement in any direction.
   
    B-- balance the fan blades so ther is no vibration.. It does'nt
    matter how tight you fittings are if the blades bounce and wiglle
    and vibrate all over hte place.
    

    re: .11
    
    Yeah, the instructions I had gave me that "partially assemble on
    the ground" bit.  I guess the problem I had was I only had a 12'
    aluminum ladder to work with.  I dropped the fan about 3' from the
    12' ceiling (my arithmetic leaves it still 9' off the floor, give
    or take).  
    
    The stupid builder didn't install the box on the exposed beam
    correctly.  He just nailed it to the beam so I had to recess it.  
    Try hanging off a ladder and drilling/chiseling to recess an 
    electrical box.  When I got that done, I was only moderately 
    aggravated.  I installed the joint part of the Casablanca ball-joint 
    mount to the beam.  Whew!  Then I assembled the shaft and motor on 
    the end of it and installed it in the mounting.  Whew!  I assembled 
    the paddles to the little guys that bolt to the motor.  Then hanging 
    by one arm I tried to screw the paddles to the motor.  I got about 
    halfway around (3 out of 5) when I came across the screwed up bolt 
    hole(argh!).  About now I was ready to take an Uzi and the Rambo 
    approach to revenge against anyone who worked for Casablanca Fan Co.  
    I disassemble the blades I have assembled still in mid-air dangling
    from the aluminum ladder.  I get the sucker back to earth and find
    that one bolt hole was cross threaded or something at one time.
    (I didn't do it, even from my position on the ladder!)  It was really
    buggered.  After much care I get that stupid paddle on the motor.  
    By now I figure the only way to assemble the sucker is on the ground.  
    I do this, and with physical strength that is only seen in people 
    crazed with anger and aggravation I hold the assembled fan at arms 
    length, walk up the ladder and stick the ball in the socket.  Still 
    dangling from the ladder, I assemble the light fixtures and wire it 
    while cursing in a constant stream.  My wife has long since retired 
    out of earshot.  I then wire the wall socket, go downstairs and flip 
    the breaker, come upstairs and play with the switches and NOT a thing 
    happens.  Then with absolute cold blooded resolution and red hot 
    anger I sat down and thought for a minute.  I did have a little  bit
    of trouble installing the switch, maybe a wire came off.  I throw the 
    breaker and check the switch and find a loose connection.  I go back
    downstairs grumbling every step, throw the breaker, come up and 
    EVERYthing works perfectly!  Marvelous!  Anyway that is how (not) to 
    install a Casablanca fan.
    
    I bet the guy in Mississippi that just blew away 16 members of his
    family for no apparent reason was installing a Casablanca ceiling 
    fan at the time.
    
    Stan

    Some random fan thoughts -
    
    - We have a split-entry, with a woodstove in the basement family
    room.  We have the ceiling fan in the entrance way (tall ceiling
    where the stairs are), and run it pulling the air UP during the
    winter when the stove is going. It pulls a good amount of warm air
    up from the cellar into the rest of the house (with the help
    of a small muffin fan in the upstairs hallway to push the
    warmed air towards the other end of the house).
    
    - The entrance way originally had a light hanging from the
    ceiling, and it was powered by a 3-way switch.  Not wanting
    to run another set of wires for the remote controls for the
    fan, we found an infared remote control fan at Montgomery
    Wards.  Basically, you mount the fan, and need only on/off
    power at the fan.  Then you've got a remote control which
    allows you to put the fan on "low, medium, or high" speeds,
    and to reverese the fan.  The remote also has a light control
    on it which controls the light fixture under the fan (on/off/dimmer).
    On sale (which monkey wards usually has) the price was about
    $75 for a full 52" fan - and it works fairly well.
    
    - When mounting the fan to the ceiling, the electric box
    was there, but barely attached to the ceiling joist.  So
    in my usual mode of over-kill, I took a 4x4 and put it
    between the 2 ceiling joists above the electrical box.  After
    using 2 lag bolts at each end of the 4x4 to secure it to the
    ceiling joists, I drilled a hole thru the 4x4 and ran an 8"
    hook thru the hole (and electrical box), with a nut and large
    washer and lock washer on the other side.  I figure I could
    probably use this hook to pull and engine out of a car - so
    I feel pretty safe with just a ceiling fan hanging off of it.
    
    andy
    

    
    
    		I have a 20' x 20' living room with a 17' ceiling.
    
    		I bought a Nutone slim-line fan, very simple clean lines,
    		no lights or ornate decorations.  It has  a 56" blade
    		span, I have a speed control on the wall.  The fan does
    		an excellent job and looks attractive.  I bought it at
    		Mass Gas and Electric in Nashua  for @ $75.00.  It is
    		very easy to install.

    		As Far as wiring, you could run it through a wire mold
    		in the corner of the room, then along the ridge to the
    		a box for the fan.  The wire mold can be painted to
    		match the wall color so as to not be very noticeable.
    		This is probably the easiest and Cheapest way to do
    		it, without looking like an after thought.
    
    
    	Tony

    Re: .-1   Sounds like it might be what I'm looking for.  I looked
    at all the fans at Somerville Lumber and it looked like you'd have
    to hack up some wiring to put the speed, power, and reversing switches
    remote from the fan.   Pullchains don't cut it with a 20' ceiling!
    
    Does the nutone reverse?
    

Re: .12

I hope you don't mind that I laughed at your agony. :-)

I had a similar installation problem once where a box was flush-mounted 
out in plain sight.  I didn't have the nerve/agility to cut a recess for 
it, so I built a little wooden plate to surround the box and painted it 
a neutral color.  It wasnt' as nice as your solution, but if someone 
else is looking for a quick way out, it's easy (the plate can be built on 
the ground) and you don't notice it after the first day or so.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    
    My electrician gave me a ceiling box that is only about 1/2 to 3/4
    in deep to mount the Fan. (I haven't got the fan up yet) This was
    so I don't have to chisel out the exposed beam. Has anybody else
    used this as an alternative to the chisel?

Although I have one fan on a shallow box (shhh!) it's against The Code.
The box I have is a half-inch job, (I think the fan was hung before the
code specified the kind of box to use) and seems to be pretty solidly
anchored, but at any rate, now you should use (and your electrician MUST
use) a special box designed specifically for hanging fans. At least if 
you don't want to live in fear of the building inspector... :-)

					>>>==>PStJTT

> ...a special box designed specifically for hanging fans. 

Huh?  Never heard of it.  Do you have any more information?

to be more specific, the fan should be anchored to a rafter!

Hunter fans are designed to connect to an eyebolt that goes through the box and
into the rafter.  I just assumed most did.

An earlier note made a comment about the motor housing not moving.  I'm not sure
if this is the same or not, but the Hunters are designed to move (in fact they
pivot on the eye bolt AND the base must be left around 1/8 of an inch or so off
the ceiling to account for movement).

So what is this thing in the code about special boxes?  When I looked through it
all I saw was mention of the normal box not being enough.  As I said before,
with the Hunter, you install a normal box, but run the eye bolt through the
middle of it.

-mark

I think it's all new with the 87 code.  There is a special box that is
about 1.75" deep, it has bolts with a wood screw thread going up (if you
imagine it in the installed position) into whatever you have for
overhead support, and a set of captive machine bolts hanging down that
you fit the hanging plate of the fan to and secure with fiber-insert
lock nuts. Most electrical stores that sell fans seem to be carrying
them these days.  I've read that they're "marked" as being for ceiling 
fans, but I didn't look to see what the marking said.

All-in-all they're very strong. I like the idea of the lock nuts holding 
that plate up.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Alternatives??
    
    (I admit I have not been following all of the responses so I apologize
    if this is a repeat).
    
    At he "Governor's lodge" at Loon Mtn Ski area they have a very high
    ceiling.  They have 4 ducts that extend to the top.  They then use
    fans to pull the air down to the lower levels.  
    
    I have no idea of the efficiency, ect, but it might be one way to
    avoid a regular old ceiling fan.....
    
    jeff
    

    re:  3/4 inch electrical bo for fan.
    
    Yup that is what the builder screwed on the beam for me.  That would
    have left the fan 3/4 of an inch off the beam and it would not have 
    looked good enough for me.  If I had to sink a 2" box into a solid
    hemloch beam I would never have made it.  I forget what I did, but
    I am sure that it is well attached (I am a believer in overkill
    also).
    
    The Casablanca fans have a microprocessor based control and use
    only 2 wires for the fan/light control.  If you already have a light
    fixture on the ceiling you can just swap in a fan and control switch.
    
    Stan

    	I haven't climbed up to check for sure, but, my fan seems to
    have a cover which not only covers the opening on the bottom but
    also covers the sides so it's not as obvious.
    	The brand I have is Nutone.
    
    
    ...Dave
    

I collected these 2 notes over the past year of scanning USENET - they 
add to the conversation, so I thought I'd post them

Newsgroups: misc.consumers,misc.consumers.house
Path: decwrl!sun!aeras!richard
Subject: Re: Ceiling fans
Posted: 18 Apr 87 01:21:13 GMT
Organization: Arete Systems, Inc. San Jose, CA.
Xref: decwrl misc.consumers:1785 misc.consumers.house:1020
 
I have installed 7 fans in my home. There are only 4 there now. I had to
return 3 Hunter's because they were so noisy, and unbalanced -especially
at high speed.
 
I vote for Casablanca all the way. Not only are they quiet, but they
have a reversing switch, and are "permanently" sealed so that they
don't gob oil on the floor when you tip them a bit for maintenance.
 
Hunter's have this humongous motors, and could probably be left on for 
several years at a time, but have an annoying HUMMMMMMMMM. Further,
you have to manually reverse a hunter (swap the blades, or buy reversing
blades in the first place.) Casablancas have better details in their
hanging system, and don't require you to be a gorilla to install
the unit. IE with a hunter you are on a ladder with 50 pounds of
fan motor in one hand, wangling for a small hook in the electrical box
-yukkk. I might vote for Hunter if the price were right, and it was
a restaurant type environment.
 
The cheap fans will be nothing but trouble, and may even precess enough
to set up a harmonic oscillation that will take chunks of plaster outta
your ceiling.
 
richard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsgroups: misc.consumers,misc.consumers.house
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!lll-lcc!mordor!sri-spam!sri-unix!husc6!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo
Subject: Re: Ceiling fans
Posted: 2 Apr 87 15:58:40 GMT
Organization: Speech Communication UT Austin
Xref: decwrl misc.consumers:1636 misc.consumers.house:919
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (H.DEE) writes:
>Now I must make a quick decision on which one to buy.  My basic 
>question is - what is the difference between expensive fans (>$200)
>and cheap fans (<$100)? 
 
The more expensive fans, especially Hunter, will have a more sophisticated
lubrication mechanism, such as a total immersion oil bath. They will run
quieter (uh, "more quietly") and are less likely to vibrate, especially at
higher speeds. They'll also typically have a lifetime garauntee, whereas
the cheapies have 5-year warranties. 5 years is still a pretty long time,
though, and I've never had any trouble with such fans. I'd say if you're
going to constantly be running the fan at top speed (whirrrrrrrrr), go
with a Hunter/Casablanca. Otherwise the cheaper ones will do just fine. By
"cheaper," I mean $50-$75 or so, not the $19.95 "drugstore specials." you
really won't need to run it at top speed much, in my experience. The "wind"
is just too much, unless you've got one of those 16-foot ceilings. 
 
Ron Morgan
 
-- 
osmigo, UTexas Computation Center, Austin, Texas 78712
ARPA:  [email protected]
UUCP:  ihnp4!ut-ngp!osmigo  allegra!ut-ngp!osmigo  gatech!ut-ngp!osmigo
       seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo  harvard!ut-sally!ut-ngp!osmigo

There are some recommendations here, and in 1847, for Nutone fans

however, not many people carry nutone - and those who don't are very 
quick to disparage it - is this just 'salesmanship' or is there 
something gabout nutone I should know about...

The lighting place in North Andover sells Nutone and Casablanca.  They 
have had no trouble with Nutone.  Sell a lot of them.  They're quiet.  
They'll turn one on to let you listen if you'd like.  

Nutone is a major source of ventilation fans, so they are not a has been.

Alex

There seems to be a large price differential among fans as follows:

If I'm willing to have the REVERSE button on the fan, as opposed to 
remotely located - they're much cheaper.  So, I ask all you 
fan-owners...
	

		HOW OFTEN DO YOU REVERSE YOUR FAN?

(as mine will be 10' up)
				thanx/j

I've never reversed my fan nor can I think of a reason why I would want to.  In
the winter it forces the warm air down and in the summer keeps think 
circulating.  I suppose if I had an open skylight I might want to force the 
warm air out it in the summer, but since warm air rises I'd just turn off the
fan and let it drift out.

-mark

    	Not to harp on a old point the reason for DOWN IN THE SUMMER
    UP IN THE WINTER is:
    
    	In the summer the air will blow directly on you giving you a
    wind chill effect.
    
    	In the winter you don't want to be wind chilled so you run it
    in the up mode which will force the warm air down along the walls
    without creating a breezzzzzz.
    
    
    					...Dave
    

I went fan shopping tonite:

at WINDS ALOFT, a fans-only store in Framingham (also Hanover and 
Hyannis) I found...

"The Quiet One" made in USA by the parent company of Winds Aloft.  DC 
motor, 2 wire control.  Continuous speed control, reversibility 
control, and dimmer on the wall switch.  $250- $300.  Drawback - the 
swtich is kludgy.  IF you turn it off then on quickly it changes 
direction.  Very easy to turn off whist trying to find minimum speed.
4-blade. USes GE brushless DC motor, supplies DC to lighting.

"Colorfan" by Halsley (imported).   4 blade. AC motor, 4 adjustable
'track lights' at base.  Avail in many solid pastels (contemporary
look). reversibility switch on fan.  3 wire, dimmer and speed control
on wall switch.  $130 w/lights.   Drawback - although the design would 
premit a continuously variable speed control, the supplied wall switch 
provides only 3 speeds.  I liked these - anyone know about them?????

They also have Hunter

Lechmere's had the next largest selection.... 40 fans.  Hunter, and 2
import brands (CODEC and WiNDSsomething).  They said they had better
luck with the CODEC - both import brands were similar to the Colorfan
in price, style and selection (again, I was only looking at
contemporarys). 

I also looked at NuTone at Hansen Electric (Framingham).  Not real 
impressive - According to the catalog- very minimal selection of 
attached lighting.

    
    Re: my entry in .34 and Jeff Winston's in .37
    
    I said there is a store in Framingham called "The Fan Store".
    Well..ah..there is sort of - but the proper name of it is 
    "Winds Aloft" - the place Jeff mentions in .37 The fan store name fits 
    but it's not exactly correct - just don't want to lead  anybody
    to thinkin they're missin out on another store.
    
    In .37, the model "The Quiet One" is the one my friends said is
    the GE that they've got throughout their house and love. (They've
    had them for a year now.)  
    
    They also said the salesperson (owner?) at Winds Aloft was very
    helpful with the size fan they needed.  They supplied him with
    room dimensions and he told them what was most suitable.
    
    Kathy

Thanks Kathy, after checking out Marlboro Electric, and Fan and Hearth
in Sudbury, (n addition to the other stores checked out before). I
bought a Colorfan at Winds Aloft today.  My sense is that their price
was competitive, and they had the best post-sale support. I didn't
spring the extra $150 for the "Quiet One (GE)" because for my purpose
(high-ceiling in living room) I didn't feel I needed the extra
features and .1% extra quiet.  WIll let you all know how it goes up
when I get there.	/j 

<	In the winter you don't want to be wind chilled so you run it
<	in the up mode which will force the warm air down along the walls
<	without creating a breezzzzzz.
    
We've got a Sears fan hanging about 10' off the ground in a family room with a
cathedral ceiling. The room is heated with a coal stove which really pumps out 
the heat. Without the fan, the temperature in the room can have a 10 degree 
diferential between the ceiling and the living area. However, all it takes is a 
couple of minutes of operation of the fan every once in a while to keep the 
temperature uniformly distributed (by blowing down). I don't see any problems
with breezes since the fan only needs to be on for short periods. Actually, it's
sometimes nice to stand under the fan after coming in out of the cold.

However...I have a problem. For the past few months, the fan hasn't worked. For
a long while the motor didn't seem to have enough torque and gradually got 
weaker and weaker. We would have to put the speed control on full just to get it
started and then turn it down to the desired speed. Now it doesn't work at all.
Does anybody have any idea of what could be the problem? Is it likely to be the 
motor or perhaps is there something slowly deteriorating in the solid-state 
speed control? If that is likely the problem, I'm not averse to opening up the 
circuit and working on it. I also have a 'scope at home so I could look at the 
waveforms it that would help.
    					...Dave

    Most likely the bearings in the motor are shot.  You say the fan
    has had trouble getting started and gradually got worse.  These
    are the classic symptoms.  In that dry atmosphere, the lubricant
    on the shaft dried up.
    
    You could try taking the motor apart.  Clean up the dried up lubricant
    on the shaft with something very fine like 0000 steel wool or 600grit
    sandpaper.  Re-lube with a good quality lubricant like lubriplate.
    If the bearing area is not too far gone this will extend the life
    of the fan quite a lot.  If there's any degredation of the bearing
    area, my experiene has been that you may extend the llife only for
    a very short while.  Time for a new fan motor.
    
    Usually you can get away with a shot of 3 in 1 oil about once a
    year.  In the dry area next to a coal stove you may need to do this
    every 3 months.
    
    Hope this helps...

    
    
    	Thats what you get for not running the fan in reverse in the
    winter.
    
    	-Steve-
    

Can't recall whether or not people discussed price to operate.  I consider this
a fairly critical factor if you intend to run your fan for long durations, like
the entire winter!  This is especially true for cathedral ceiling in which you
want to continuously be moving the warmer air down.

As I recall, Hunters ran on low speed at something like 40 watts!  That means
you could run it for something like a nickel a day.

How do the others stack up in this department?

-mark

    I had the same thing happen to my ceiling fan that I bought from
    Winds Aloft in Framingham.  Just wouldn't start by itself unless
    you gave it a little help.  I took the unit back to see if it could
    be fixed.  After he checked it out, he determined that the starter
    capacitor was blown and it wasn't an easy fix.  Since he didn't
    have a replacement unit I got my money back.
    
    -al

Comparison of brands question:

Up until this weekend, we thought Casablanca was the only mfr. that had 
a lifetime warranty.  Then we saw the Lechmere ad that listed a Hunter 
fan on sale at $119.95 having a lifetime warranty.

I know that a number of the less-then-$150 fans have only 5 year
warranty. (I believe most Hunters have 5 year and I think the same
applies to Nutone.) 

Assuming we don't want to pay huge bucks for a Casablanca, does anyone 
out there know of different quality levels within brands, and which 
brands are both quiet and long lasting?  (For example, the fact that 
the Hunter is lifetime warranty says to me that they think it is very 
well made.  I am troubled by earlier replies about noisy Hunters.)

Thanks,

Alex

Well, the AC fans can take up to 100 W, which means they'll cost an 
additional $23/year to run - Since ACs cost around $130 as opposed to 
$275 and above - it sounds like a good tradeoff, no?
/j

re: noisy Hunters

Mine was extremely quiet, though I quickly admit to only running it on low 
speed.

When we bought it, the salesperson said one of the advantages of it were it's 
quietness and when comparing it to a couple of other brands it was the hands
down winner.  I can't remember if Casablanca was one of the contenders or not.

-mark

    
    	I have read this note with great interest as I am looking into
    buying a ceiling fan. Where can one buy a Casablanca ceiling fan
    in the central Mass area? Anyone know of a good store that carries
    a variety of ceiling fans to gawk at and also has informative and
    knowledgeable sales people?
    
    	I read with interest the notes regarding up/down movement of
    air in the summer/winter. I have a cathedral ceiling in my living
    room 16' up. There is a loft room above the living room leaving
    1/3 of the living room cathedral and the other 2/3 regular ceiling.
    The 1/3 portion of the room is home to my wood stove that pumps
    mucho air into the loft (20+ degrees warmer). I need to force that
    air down and out using a fan blowing the air down.
    
    		------------------------------------------------
    		!	       !vent!^		!      stove    !
    		!				!	 ---	!
    	        !				!	! 0 !	!
    		!	       _		!	 ---	!
    		!  	      (_)ceiling fan		! 		!
       N 	!	       			!		!
       !	!	      LOFT		!     OPEN	!
    W__!__E	!				!		!
       !	!     CEILING FOR LIVING ROOM	!   CEILING	!
       S	!				!		!
       		!				!		!
    		!				!		!
    		-------------------------------------------------
    
    
    	Now get this. I also plan on installing a vent on the North
    	wall ( see diagram ) about 12 inches above the floor. This
    	vent would connect to duct work in the attic of the rest of
    	the house which is North of LOFT. The duct would continue
    	thru the attic the length of the house until it reaches the
    	center of the most Northern room of the house. It would then
    	exit into a ceiling vent in that far room. I will install a
    	fan in the duct work. Of course the duct will be insulated.
    	The intent is to take the air that has risen from the stove
    	into the loft, drive it back down to the loft floor, pull it
    	out the vent, thru the duct work into the Northern room. From
    	here the air would travel along the floor (cool air settles there)
    	back to the stove as intake air. Hopefully this would cause
    	a nice air circulation throughout the house and more uniform
    	heating. The remainder of the house is one story in height.
    
    	I would like general comments on this idea(s) if anyone can
    	make sense out of this note. Specifically, where would you
    	install the fan in the duct? At the loft end to push the
    	air thru or at the far end and pull the air thru? What kind
    	of fan would be good to do this?
    
    			Thanks in advance, Art
    

    RE: .36
              Leavitt Colson Electric is having a sale on Casablanca
    fans. They have an add in today's Worcester Telegram with prices
    ranging from $199.00 to $533.00. There address is:
    
    	Leavitt Colson
    	632 Cambridge St.
    	Worcester Ma. 
    	(617)757-2761
    
    Dave

    Uh, er, excuse me.
    
    There is another note on ceiling fans, 1279.  There seem to be
    different opinions in there.  One I recall is that Casablanca is
    an over-priced label.  I installed a Universal from Spag's that
    cost $49, runs quietly, looks EXCELLENT, and has worked well.
    
    Spag's just finished their annual electric and lighting blowout.
    Sorry I didn't notice this discussion going astray earlier.
    
    Elaine

There is a mail order place in boston that sells casablana - they're 
in all the phone books with an 800 number - they send catalogs on 
request.  

I saw spag's Universals - 2 drawbacks:

1) limited color selection
2) very limited support - they don't keep them stocked all year, so if 
yours breaks, you have little immediate recourse (spags will do what 
they can, but they are not equipped to fix, and won't have a 
replacement).  One thing I liked about winds aloft was that they 
stocked replacement parts - which makes their 10yr warranty mean a bit 
more. /j

                I would install the fan in the duct where the noise it
        WILL make would be the least objectionable. It really doesn't
        matter whether air is pushed or pulled through a single duct.
                
                /s/     Bob

    RE: .39
    
    I can see your concerns for a major piece of equipment whose failure
    would cause problems.  But for a ceiling fan??  If it doesn't work,
    how critical is it?  Seems like your paying a lot more money for
    something you may never need and probably could live without.
    
    My impression (opinion) of these products with long warrenties is
    that the companies charge you "product insurance" when you buy the
    item.  I'm not sure higher prices mean that they engineered it any
    better than a lower priced model.  And a lot of these "extended
    warrenties" are pro-rated.  If your item breaks down in the 9th
    year of a 10 year, pro-rated warrenty, you don't get much for all
    that extra money you spent.

    Nobody asked, just my opinion.
    
    Phil    

RE: -.1 - I generally agree with you.  But, in this case I was willing 
to pay up a bit because:
	1) Spags didn't sell the color I wanted
	2) they were totally cleaning out their inventory - with no 
		plans to re-order until august - In this case, I'm
		willing to pay up a bit not to have to hassle with
		infant mortality.

    re: -.1
    
    I agree also.  After shopping everywhere for a fan I liked the looks
    of, I was able to find mine at Spag's, when they had the tent sale
    clearance in August.  I shopped several stores, and revisited each
    store several times to see new stock.  I wanted a ceiling fan, but
    wasn't willing to pay a lot.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Elaine

    For what its worth...I bought a ceiling fan for my living room,
    which has 15 foot ceilings (talk about a waste of heat), from Grossmans
    Bargain Outlet in Brighton,MA for $29.00...its polished brass with
    wood-looking plastic blades.  Its reversable, light adaptable and
    runs off a reostat switch.  Its been running constantly for the
    last 5 years...never makes a sound, and has never failed to work.
    
    Best bargain I've ever found!

    No mention of cordless infrared controllers...Thats what I want!
     Current fan is SEARS, manually reversible at the motor (a slide
    switch).  I am willing to replace entire unit, but would like to
    explore retrofit option as well. 
    
   Who makes these things, where can I see them in MAynard/ Worcester
    area??

    I believe that Sears itself sells an infared remote retrofit kit
    for ceiling fans.  I remember seeing it when looking to replace
    our non-remote fan, thinking it was a good idea, but since our
    old fan was shot, it didn't make sense for a retrofit.  Check their
    catalog or a local retail store.
    
    andy
    

re: 1847.45

Sears sells an add on remote control, as well as a fan that comes with remote 
control.

I'll be fan shopping in March and/or April for a remote controlled fan.

Has anyone researched fans further since January.

We have looked at a bunch of fans and discovered that:

1) Casablanca cost a lot (surprise).  They appear to be excellent quality.

2) Hunter has two lines:  1) a lifetime guarantee line that costs about
half as much as a comparable Casablanca, has ball bearings, etc. at
about $250 for 52" version 2) A five-year guarantee line that is made in
Taiwan to Hunter specifications.  No mention of ball bearings on these
models. $100-$120. 

3) Nutone has a one model billed as especially quiet with ball 
bearings.  The others mention nothing, so I assume they are not ball 
bearings.  The others are in the $80-100 range. 

4) Murray Feist (sp?) has a 5 year and a 15 year warranty.  Some 
contemporary designs.  Prices from about $80 to $200.

5) Nutone warns against a solid state speed control causing a hum in 
its industrial fans.  I wonder whether the hum people mention is due to 
such controls (rather than the discrete 3 or 4-speed switch type. 

6) I don't believe the usenet reply #1 in .26 is very accurate.  I have not 
seen a fan yet that lacks a reversing switch.  The lifetime Hunters are 
permanently sealed--I don't know what the writer bought. 

My question: We'd like to get by with fans in the $100 range.  Who out 
there has had experience with ball bearing and non-ball bearing 
Hunters?  Does anyone know of other quality fans to consider?  We need 
a ceiling hugger style.  Thanks for any input.

Alex

Well, I'm happy with the $100+ fan I bought from winds aloft because I 
wanted a particular style and non-standard color.  However, if you 
don't need ultra-quiet, have a feeling the Universal fans at Spags 
($50) would be quite adaquate.

    
    I've seen ads in the Globe for awhile from "Ceiling Fan Distributors,
    Inc." They're on Albany Street in Boston.  They say they have
    "wholesale prices - warehouse showroom".  They also say "We beat 
    any price. Buy direct from the distributor."  They show a picture
    of a Hunter fan and say they have complete selection of styles,
    colors, models. They say they have expert advise and deliver. Has
    anyone tried this place?  Have comments? 
                 
    Thanks, Kathy
    

    I'm planning  to install a microwave/exhaust fan over my stove and
    am  looking for advice on what's involved. The unit draws about 13
    amps, so I'd like to put in a seperate circuit for it.

    Can I  add  a circuit to my breaker panel? I have 200 amp service,
    so I'm sure there's plenty of capacity.  Do I need a permit?

    The cable  run  is  mainly  in  the  basement, but will have to be
    fished  vertically about 7 ft. Can I use romex cable or must I use
    bx?

    Are there  any  tricks  to running the exhaust pipe? It is a 8 ft.
    straight  run  to  an  outside  wall. Spags sells kits for exhaust
    hoods  with  flexible  hose,  but  only  4 ft. of it. I assume I'm
    better off with rigid pipe for that long a run.

    Is this  the  right  way  to  go,  or  would  I be better off with
    seperate Microwave and exhaust hood?

    Any thing else I should know?  

Thanks for any advice,

--David Wittenberg

    In ref. to the last question first, many of the "spacesaver" microwave
    hoods can be either vent out or recirculate with a filter (I know
    that GE works that way) depending on how its installed. The amount
    of current that the fan itself draws compared to the microwave is
    negligible, so that's not a problem. Depending on your local electrical
    code, you could use either BX or Romex. If you need a permit again
    depends on your locale. A 20 amp circuit and 12 guage cable will
    easily fill the bill. As far as running the vent hose, your best
    bet would be to check with the unit's manufacturer.
    
    Eric

    I am not sure if you are replacing a vent or are you doing a new
    installation. If you are doing a replacement, the distance from
    the stove top and the microwave might be a problem. Part of the
    problem is the flare up from a frypan.
    
    Assuming that you have the clarance and that this is a replacement,
    use the old line that powered the exhaust fan.
    
    cal hoe

    I'm afraid  that  a  replacement  would  be too easy for the first
    wiring  I'm  doing  in my house. Right now there's nothing between
    the  stove-top  and  the soffit I want to run the exhaust through.
    The  specs  for  the microwave specify a minimum distance from the
    stove-top,  which  I  have  enough room for (in fact I'll mount it
    about 6" higher than specified.)

    I was wondering whether I could use flexible exhaust hose for an 8
    foot  or  so  run.  Also  any tricks on sealing the plate that the
    exhaust goes to with the outside wall of the house.

--David Wittenberg

>    Can I  add  a circuit to my breaker panel? I have 200 amp service,
>    so I'm sure there's plenty of capacity.  Do I need a permit?

As .1 mentioned, the answer is a matter of the local laws, and/or at the whim
of the local wiring inspector.  If you'll mention where you live, perhaps
someone else from your town will know for sure.  You can always call the
wiring inspector, especially if you're willing to abide by whatever he says. 

    Well, it all worked better than expected. It turned out that there
    had been an exhaust fan in the kitchen, so the vent to the outside
    was  in place (Nailed shut, and with news paper stuffed in it, but
    that  was  no  problem)  and there was a 12 ga. electric line with
    tape over the end. The only other thing on that 20 amp circuit was
    the  stove (a gas stove, that covers the oven light, the pilotless
    ignition, and the clock.)

    So all  I had to do was put an outlet on the line (and high enough
    so  it  doesn't  have to be a GFCI) and run 8 ft. of duct. Running
    the  ductwork  was a pain, but nothing really tough. I also had to
    install  a  shelf  above  the unit, as it was designed to get some
    support from the cabinet above it. All told, it took about 6 hours
    for two of us.  

    One thing  we  learned, the specified height for the unit was with
    the  top  30" above the stove. That makes the bottom 14" above the
    stove,  which  is  unacceptably  low. We mounted it 6" higher, and
    that seems about right.

--David

    re: .16
    
    Another way to disguise an electrical box flush-mounted on a ceiling
    beam: 
    
    Get an appropriate size plastic flower pot. Cut off the bottom of
    the pot just below the step where it gets narrower. Spray paint
    the resulting circular ring black, or some other favorite color.
    Cut a notch to clear the wire-mold. Place it on the beam around
    the electrical box. The widest part ( former top of the flower pot)
    is against the beam. The circular mounting ring of the fan rests
    on the step of the pot. The 1/4" of plastic you left below the step
    fits inside the fan mounting ring to keep things from sliding
    sidewards. 
    
    Make sure you get the fan mounting screws correctly tightened, fans
    are heavy.
    

    Just installed a Litton II microwave oven with exhaust fan over
    the stove. It is bolted under a cabinet. Problem (?): the fan is
    very, very loud. Never having had such a fan I don't know if this
    is normal. Any input is appreciated.

    
    	Unless you hear something other than the "whirrrrrrr" of the
    blades and air moving, it's normal.  Mine is loud also, but I've
    never seen/heard an exhaust fan that *isn't loud.
    
    	I wonder if one of those "air shredders" that was discussed
    in a previous note would help?  They should be standard equip-
    ment on devices such as this.  ;-)

>    	I wonder if one of those "air shredders" that was discussed
>    in a previous note would help?  They should be standard equip-
>    ment on devices such as this.  ;-)

While shredded air will pass though a fan more quietly due to the 
smaller granularity, it's dangerous to keep shredded air near a stove. 
The small, loosely packed air grains will flash, much like grain dust, 
causing an explosive burn.  If the air is too thick near the stove, you 
should use an air chipper to break up the air, but leave it in "chunks" 
that are less likely to ignite.  All but the cheapest hoods have 
built-in chippers, and the noise you hear is probably the chunks 
rattling up the exhaust pipe.

			>>>==>PStJTT Certified Air Shreddererererer.

For those who have no idea what we're talking about, see note 1906 for a truly 
ridiculous discussion.

Paul

I've just glanced at the 90 or so notes [1279 & 1847] and was unable to 
get my questions answered although there were some good pointers.  I am 
not interested in advise on types, styles of ceiling fans.  I am trying 
to determine if a ceiling fan will provide me with the functional utility 
I need given the unique situation of the lay out of the area.  This fan 
would be used in winter.  So my questions are directed to experienced 
fellow NOTERS who use their fans in the winter to balance the heat.

The question I have is "Will a ceiling fan either balance the heat or 
push warm air down into the usable living area without creating other 
problems such as drafts or wind chill?"  

Here are the factors I'm dealing with:

Area to be heated is the living room.  The living/dining room area are 
sunken.  Being the lowest rooms in the house they are also the coldest.  
I have gas/baseboard hot water heat.  The rooms are southerly facing so 
during the day I get great solar gain.  This is due to the large glass 
area.  A triple window in the dining room.  A huge 8ft slider in the 
living.  Above the slider a sealed twin 8ft window the same length as the 
slider.  I guess the benefits of solar gain during the day are lost at 
night through conduction.  To minimize the heat loss at night I've 
installed window treatment on all the glass and added a second pane to 
the slider, making it a double slider.

There is a prefab [in the wall] fireplace located on the same wall as the 
slider.  It has glass doors.  Given this situation the entire length of 
the southerly facing wall is unheated.  The baseboard heat [on the other 
walls] is adequate enough to heat this level.  But the heat movement is 
impaired by the fact that on this level my ceilings are @10ft.  
Compounding this problem is an unheated deck which sits above the living 
room.  The deck is recessed several feet back from the southerly wall 
overlooking the living room by several feet.

So.... What happens in the winter is a tremendous amount of heat rise up 
into the deck area through the opening plus a cold spot on the south wall 
of the living area.

The other problem I have is the location of the fan box.  The builder 
made provisions for a fan.  Actually I have another paddle fan located at 
the top of the stairwell leading up to the deck but it does nothing to 
help balance the heat at that end of the house.  I measured the opening 
and believe the maximum size fan would be a 4 footer.

Questions:  Would a fan located directly over the opening between the 
south wall and the edge of the deck do anything to either push down the 
heated air or keep it in the living area?  Given the size limitation of 
the fan?  Will that cold spot go away by using a fan?

Should that fan be close to the ceiling or dropped down?  And how far 
down should it be dropped?  Should it be dropped below the deck?  I've 
read in the notes that having the fan pull up the air allows the air to 
travel down the walls and balance the temp without causing a draft.  
Would that work in my case or would most of the air just be pushed around 
on the deck above even though the fan would sit above the opening?

Your ideas and comments would be very helpful.  Remember.  I'd only 
buying the fan for this purpose.

Bill

    Well, we have had a problem such as yours.  Putting a fan (52 in)
    in the center of the room (flush mount) helped out alot.  I usually
    have it pulling the air up and over to the walls.  I found that
    if you use it on low it works well.  Put it on any higher and there
    tends to be a slight draft.  It does work though. 
    
    Hope this helps.  Al

    I changed this topic's title from "Another Ceiling Fan Question" to
    "Ceiling fan for balanced heat".
    				DCL, moderator

    We do that (push air down in summer for breeze, pull it up in winter
    to mix layers) and it works fine, i.e., no difference between high
    and low level temps.
    
    Go for the longest blades you can fit and I'd suggest a five-paddle
    vs. a four-paddle.  You'll move more air at the lower speed.
    
    Pete

We have an Hunter fan that's about 7 years old on a variable speed
control (continuously variable via SCR, not hi/med/lo.)  It's still
turning.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I forgot to mention, that I read over notes 1279 & 1847 and didn't
    really find the answer. I was given the old hunter fan that I spoke
    about in .0 and don't have any literature about the unit at all
    I would be interested in getting copies of any owner manuals from
    anyone who has an older Hunter, cast iron unit. The one I have is
    all brown with 4, 52" wood blades (weighs a ton), 2 speed. If you
    think you may have a similar older Hunter unit, could you please
    forward me a copy of your manual. I'm at MKO1/2F13, Bill Downs.
    Thanks again!

	We also have a fan in our cathedral-ceiling family room. Before
       we installed the fan, the room (17'X18') was quite cool in the
       winter. Having an updraft fan moves the heated air gently down
       the side walls and evens the heat tremendously. BTW...if your fan
       dosen't have variable speed, invest a few $$ in a speed control.
       It will allow adjustment to move the maximum air without causing
       drafts.
       

    How qualified is your electrician ? - I know these folks sometimes
    have a lot of experience but I would have to know why the motor
    would burn out. Doesn't sound logical to me - after all its designed
    to run for ever on full power - all an SCR controller does is chop
    off parts of the sine wave. But maybe I'm missing something ?
    
    Rod

I thought that to have continuously variable speed, you needed a fan 
designed to support it, probably with a DC motor.  The lower priced 
fans (<$200) are just three speed - can the control be modified for 
continuously-variable?

    I put a variable speed control on my 52 in fan. No special wiring.
    I leave the fan settings on High speed and control the actual speed
    of the fan from the variable control. Less hummmm that way. BTW,
    my fan was under $75 on sale.

    
    .5 brings up a good point. I have one of those 3 speed pull chain
    fans and when I installed a speed control, the fan made a aggravating
    humming sound so I took it out and put a switch in. Then I read the
    box that the speed control came in and it says to use it on a
    "split capacitive fan only". Is the hum because I have the wrong
    kind of fan? By the way the fan does distribute the heat nicely
    in winter when I reverse the motor esp. since it's on a catheral
    ceiling.     
    
    
    	Thanks in advance,
    	Bob

    re .-1
    'all an SCR controller does is chop off parts of the sine wave.'
    
    Ya, but.  In order to 'chop' off a sine wave you introduce high
    frequency components.  You no longer have a 60 HZ sine wave but
    a very complex waveform.  The fourier analysis of which shows a
    spread over the frequency spectrum.  When you feed this waveform
    to a large inductor (which the motor is), these high frequency
    components get filtered out and what you wind up with is essentially
    a lower voltage sine wave with a poor trailer.
    
    What happens when you run a motor at a lower voltage than what it
    was designed for ??  - Burnout.
    
    That's the sum total of my EE days.  Now back to software.

>
>    I put a variable speed control on my 52 in fan. No special wiring.
>    I leave the fan settings on High speed and control the actual speed
>    of the fan from the variable control. Less hummmm that way. BTW,
>    my fan was under $75 on sale.

where did you get the control, what did it cost, what was it called?

thanx/j

    I purchased the control at Grossmans about $12. I have had no
    problems with it or the fan. Other's in this notes file say that
    this is a no-no. If I burn the fan out I'll let you know. I am now 
    starting my second winter with this set up. I ran the fan last winter
    from Jan on, at a very slow speed using the variable speed controler. The 
    fan ran all day while the heat was on. Shut it, and the heat, down 
    at night.
    
    I do not know the name of the unit but Grossmans had several types.
    Some could control more than one Fan. I purchased the one with
    the large dial to control.  The Control works from off to high
    speed to slow speed as you turn it right to left. Very similiar
    to the fan controls you see in Digital in the Conf rooms. 
    

    I just installed a NuTone ceiling fan; the instructions specifically
    said *not* to use a solid-state speed control with the fan because
    of danger of burning out the motor.  Well, I had previously bought
    a solid-state fan control and installed it, so I hooked it up anyway.
    It seemed to work fine, but the fan tended to hum when running at low 
    speed.  Being paranoid, I broke down and bought a NuTone 3-speed
    fan control and installed that in place of the solid-state control.
    The NuTone control has a small transformer built into it, and the
    switch selects one of 3 combinations of windings.  There is less
    hum from the fan at low speed now.
    
    Would the solid-state control have damaged the fan?  I don't know.
    The solid-state gizzie I used said it was specifically for fans,
    and had the property that you could not lower the speed to "zero"
    with it; there was a certain minimum speed that the fan maintained.
    My guess (strictly a guess) is that the warning about solid-state
    speed controls is for those types that can lower the voltage below
    the point where the fan turns, so the fan just sits there with some
    low-level current in it but nothing is moving.  But I don't know.
    

    re: .9
    
    I use a ceiling fan to balance heat from electric baseboards and
    a woodstove.  BUT I keep mine on low all night, because that's when
    I find it is most effective.  There are no "cold spots" in the morning,
    just uniformly cool.
    
    Elaine

    I've been considering putting a fan in my split-entry home at my
    front entry stairway to my basement to draw heat from my woodstove
    down stairs to my upstairs living room. There is a half wall in
    my living room where the stairs go down to the basement. Will this 
    help draw the heat up effectively? Anybody had any experience?
    

    I just purchased a 42" ceiling fan and light fixture.  I want to
    replace an existing light in the kitchen.  There is a plastic junction
    box, do I need to out in a metal one?  How can I get the plasitc
    junstion box out? do I break it?  I did purchase a 10 minute kit
    that supposedly you slip a bar into the whole and fix it to the
    studs.. I've never done this before.. can someone give me some
    suggestions?? thanks...

    
    You're running into exactly what I ran into last year. That damn
    plastic box can't hold the weight of a good fan (ours weighs in
    at 35lbs). The best alternative is to cut an opening in the ceiling
    and connect up a new box, securing it between two studs. When I
    was done installing the new box, I was able to hang from it and
    it didn't budge (I weigh in at over 210lbs). Then get some sheetrock
    and patch the hole back up. By looking at the fan you can't even
    tell that I had to cut a hole in the ceiling to put it in. The only
    thing I had to worry about was the wife factor. She cringes everytime
    I have to make holes in the walls.
    
    Mike

My ceiling fan box (new construction) is the same as you are talking
about, i.e. a bar with a box on it, that expands via a threaded rod
and hangs between the studs.

However, I don't see how you would get this in without taking out part
of the ceiling as in .1.

Also, I would suggest nailing the ends anyway... I don't trust the 
treaded rod to do it all by itself!  8^)

Bob

    
    Well, if you have plaster/designed ceilings, you may not want
    to cut *another* hole, as you won't be able to 'match' the
    ceiling with just sheetrock and mud.  That's the problem I had...
    and the same plastic box for fan trouble.  So, while its
    not easy, it is possible to break up the plastic box, install
    the bar with metal box, etc in the space of the 5-6" hole already
    there.  ( i also had the fun of having to saw thru an extraneous
    2x4 blocking one of the studs...definitely not easy in such a 
    tight space!)...
    maybe you should get your wife/kid to help if your hand/arm is
    too big, and you have to work in the constrained space.
    
    deb
    

       I just installed a fan last weekend, it seems to be vibating,
    is there a way to balance the blades and/or motor? Could it be
    something else?
                                              Denny
    

    Many fan manufacturers recommend that the fan blade tips be at least
    24 Twenty-four inches from a wall or slope of a ceiling.  Closer
    than 24 inches creates a wobble.

re: .43

	My Hunter fan came with a "balance kit".  I think they can be 
	bought also.  Mine is/was small pieces of lead weights with
	some double sided tape.

	It also could be a loose support.

    bjm

    
    how is it mounted, flush or on a hanging pole ?
    
    If it is flush mounted, see .last.
    
    If it is shaft mounted, it is probably a matter of adjusting a pair
    of set screws which center the motor shaft in the hanging pole.
    

Mine came with reversible blades ('oak' on one side and a wicker inset on the
other, which we faced 'up') and I experimented with placing a quarter (25�) on
the wicker inset (so it doesn't fly off due to centrifugal force).

After about 5 minutes of experimenting, the fan stopped wobbling.  Mine is on a
3' pole.

Pete

    Well, we are baffled with our fan we purchased at K-Mart. We have
    Casablanca (sp) fans throughout the house with no problem, but decided 
    to buy a cheaper one for the porch ($39.99).  Well the problem is
    that it was working great for the last month when all of a sudden
    it stopped spinning.  When my husband takes the blades off the motor
    spins great.  The minute he puts the blades on, it sounds like it
    wants to turn, but nothing.  Has anyone had this problem???? We
    can't bring it back because I can't can't find the receipt and it
    was working fine for a month.  We are about to chuck it and go buy
    another one.  Any solutions?
    
    Loraine

    Sounds like you have a bad bearing in the motor so that when you
    add the load of the blades to the motor shaft, the additional downward
    pressure is causing the bearing to bind.
    
    I would first try taking the fan back to K-Mart andf explain
    you situation......they are usually pretty good about handling
    product failures if they regularly stock that make/model fan.
    
    I you don't get any assistance from K-Mart, you might try
    to dissassemble the motor and clean/lubricate the bearing.
    If the bearing is in really bad shape you may be able to find a
    replacement bearing at ACTION BEARING in Allston,MA.

    Thanks, I will try K-Mart return process first.

A couple of weeks ago I had my electrical inspection done and I sort of passed.
It turns out the inspector didn't like the way my Casablanca fan was installed.
The installation calls for securing the base plate to the metal box (which must
be solidly attached to a rafter and not simply tacked in as most light boxes
are).  The problem is the plate is secured with the typical 2 screws.  The
inspector didn't like this and said it needs to be done in a much more secure
manner with heavier screws.  I haven't a clue as to what he's talking about
and was planning on calling Casablanca to see if they do.

Does anyone know what he's talking about?  Has anyone else had this experience?

btw - I found out that althouh this year's code requires any counter outlet
within 6 feet of a sink to be ground fault protected, next years code will 
require ALL counter outlets to be so protected.

-mark

    The two little screws on the edges of the box are too prone to
    pulling out; lots of fans have fallen off ceilings, so the
    electrical code was changed to require more secure attachment.
    The most common hanger system I've seen has an extensible metal
    pipe which spans two rafters and is unscrewed to force the ends
    into the rafters.  The junction box is mounted to the pipe (bar)
    with a U-clamp with long legs.  The fan mounting plate should
    then be secured to the the legs of the U-clamp.
    
    Check out the September 1988 issue of The Family Handman for a
    nice article on hanging ceiling fans using the "new" code.

    I've just had one installed along with the rough wiring in my addition.
    
    The electrical box is installed with some lag bolts.  That takes
    care of the box.  The fan will be bolted to the box via some long
    bolts that come out of the box itself.  They have standoffs and
    the nuts are at the end of the standoffs.  This leaves enough of
    the bolts to attach the fan plate.  So, while there are the two
    regular screws on the corner of the box, there are also the two
    bolts.  I think this is what he's referring to.
    
    I don't know if the box is special with the bolts, or if the
    electrician attached the bolts himself.  However, I'm sure any lighting
    store will have the hardware you need.
    
    Lee

    
    I'm in the process of installing a fan myself.  I was planning
    to cross a 2x4 between the trusses and lag bolt the box
    to it.  The instructions so the mounting bracket bolts to the 
    box using the two corner screws of the box that would hold
    a cover plate on.  I might questions thoes.
    
    As far as the ground fault set up goes.  I was told that
    each outlet near water had to be ground fault.  So all you do is
    to have one GF outlet and chain the others into that box.
    
    John

    
    re .0
    
    You're probably running into the same problem I did when I installed
    my fan. The fixture the fan bolts into was only attached to 1 stud
    by only 2 nails. The Casablanca Fan I've got weighs in at over 30lbs.
    So I tore open the ceiling and put up a new fixture ataching it
    between 2 studs. When finished I was able to hang from it. Then
    I had to patch the ceiling up, and install the fan..
    
    Mike
    
 

Also posted in the GADGETS notesfile

I am looking for a 36 inch ceiling fan with wooden blades which will accept
a standard light kit.  Most ceiling fans I have come across are either 42 inch
or 52 inch.  I have seen a few 36 inch fans but they are all contemporary style
and usually have white or brightly colored blades.  Any ideas where I might 
find what I am looking for?

Mike Sweeney

    The family room in my house has got cathedral ceilings and one wall
    opens up to a balcony on the upper level (so I can look down and see if
    my dog is eating the couch :).
    
    Anyway, the heat rises straight up from the family room and does a
    great job of warming my bedroom, but does nothing for the family room. 
    I'm going to put in a ceiling fan to circulate some of the warm air
    back downstairs.
    
    Question:  Are the $250 Casablanca-like fans that are sold in stores
    specializing in "energy saving" appliances really that superior to the
    $40 fans you can find at the local hardware store?
    
    -Max

I've renamed this note to reflect your question about where to buy the ceiling 
fan you are looking for.

If you're interested, see also notes 1279, 1847 and 2745 for more info about 
ceiling fans.

Paul
[Moderator]

I had the same problem and eventually had to settle for one that 
I found at Zayre.

Good luck.
daryll

    I have a fan that was wired by the builder incorrectly so that the
    on/off switches for the lights and the fan are upstairs rather than
    down, so the logistics make it difficult to operate if your
    downstairs....My question is can you put in some sort of remote contol
    unit into the fan or switches.....I have a neighbor who has a remote
    control fan and it works great....
    
    Thanks,
    Kevin
    

Kevin

I haven't seen (doesn't mean one doesn't exsists) a retrofit
remote fan control. My sister has a Sears remote ceiling fan in
their hall/stairway that's two stories high.

The fan have speed control, reverse and light dimmer functions.
Most of the electronics is in the light cluster just below the
fan itself.

cal

>>>My question is can you put in some sort of remote contol unit into the fan 
>>>or switches..I have a neighbor who has a remote control fan and it works 
>>>great.

	Try Grossmans (or others) - they have a remote contol unit that mounts
in any fan and controls, speed/light - shuts off with one switch all for $28 +/-

    Thanks for the info....I knew it was possible....
    
    Kevin
    

    We are thinking of installing a ceiling fan in our bedroom to improve
    the air circulation ( and hopefully cut down on the use of A/C).
    There is currently no fixture in the ceiling of this room.  Do I look
    for an electrician to do the work or a carpenter or both?  How much
    should I expect to pay to have someone do this job for me?  Any
    impressions of celing hugger fans versus the "regular" kind?  We have
    standard height (7.5?) ceilings.
    
    Thanks for the help...
    
    Cathi
    
    p.s. please do not suggest we do this ourselves, my husband is
    positively terrified of anything that involves electricity!
    

    Given that you have standard height ceilings, I would definitely
    recommend a hugger over the regular kind which has a short down rod.
    Huggers aren't as efficient but then again you don't have much
    clearance to work with.  You should locate the fan over an area
    that you do not walk under since the blades will come awfully close
    to someone who is 6 ft tall.  You don't really need a carpenter
    for this job; the electrician should be able to handle the entire
    job.
    
    -al

	    I looked through 1111.* and was surprised to not be able to
	find any information on cieling fans.  Must have looked up the
	wrong titles (and many of them).
	    And electrician could install a paddle/ceiling fan in a less
	than 2 hours... and that includes running the wires.  If every
	thing goes smoothly, it would only take about an hour.  I think 
	they charge ~$25.00 and hour.  I do all that stuff myself, so I
	could be way off on the price.
	    A fan can also be run in reverse in the winter to force the 
	warmer air at the ceiling down toward the floor.  This isn't 
	much of an issue with ceilings as low as 7� feet.  But the savings
	could be significant for those over 8 feet.

					Tim  

    Ciling fans in the bedroom, make for alot of stiff necks. I know of 2
    couples who had them installed and do not use them due to the effect
    of downward drafts on the necks. 
    
    The effect is much different that AC.
    
    FYI/Bob

    we have one directly above the midle of our bed and *love* it. On hot
    nights we set it on slow and can hardly hear it. If it gets really hot
    we might go up to medium.

    
    Kill the paddle fan and get a REAL fan (Attic) :-).
    Cost about the same but more involved ($$) to install.
    But will cool the whole house and attack it at the source (the attic).
    My wife wants a "pretty" one (eeeck $259.00 !!!) I'm trying to talk her
    out of it.
    

	    We have a paddle fan in our bedroom but no A/C.  There were
	many days I wouldn't have been able to sleep without it.  Never
	woke up to a stiff neck from it so there may be other contribut-
	ing factors besides running the fan.
	    I was thinking about the price of installation by an elec-
	trician and realized I only mentioned labor costs ($25-$60).
	The electrician is also going to charge for materials.  These
	include wire (romex), electrical boxes, mounting bracket and a
	few other things.  These will add at least another $10 to the
	bill.
	    When buying a fan, the most important consideration (IMO) 
	is how quiet will it run.  It can grow increasingly annoying to 
	listen to the repetitious drone of the motor.  Nnnn, nnnn, nnnn,
	nnnn, nnnn, nnnn, nnnn... ad infinitum.

					Tim

    
     Rep .6
    
      I agree. We put one in our house. It does the whole house in no
    time and we just open the bedroom windows and enjoy the evening air.
    We went with big instead of pretty, and it will slam a door that is
    left open downstairs. I feel that the only place a ceiling fan is of
    much use is in an area with very high ceilings to get that hot air off
    the ceiling. The ceiling fan on a low ceiling might make you feel
    cooler due to evaporation of perspiration, but does no cooling what so 
    ever. People tend to believe that fans are cooling devices when in fact
    they do not cool at all, they just move air around. The attic fan does
    just the same, but moves that hot air up and out of the house. One 
    small requirement though.. For an attic fan to do it's best requires
    that a ridge vent be installed on the roof. MY opinion.

>  The ceiling fan on a low ceiling might make you feel cooler due to 
>  evaporation of perspiration, but does no cooling what so ever...
>  The attic fan ... moves that hot air up and out of the house. 

Well, if I am cooler, I don't care if the air is cooler!  :-)

Seriously, though, isn't it true that a whole house fan only does any
good if the outside air is pleasantly cool?  The only nights I'm *really*
uncomfortable are nights that it doesn't cool off, but remains hot and
sticky outside.  So I suspect a whole house fan wouldn't do me much good.  
Is there a flaw in my reasoning?

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS -- I live in Massachusetts.  

    The SOURCE of heat in the house at night is from the OVEN in the attic.
    So even if you have A/C, running an attic fan for 1/2 an hour before you
    start the A/C would probably save money because the A/C would not be
    fighting with the attic heat.
    
    On a hot summer night 85 outdoors, it's not uncommon to be a 100 or so
    in the house even after the sun goes down. Attic fans primary purpose
    is to cool (remove heat from) the "attic". It's an added bonus that
    it makes a slight breeze through the house.

    Fans have a cooling effect...it is the same thing as "wind chill".  It
    is the skin's perceived heat retention.  In still air, heat stays
    around your body.  In moving air, it is "blown" away.
    
    Refrigeration affect...no.

    That's true for ceiling fans but not for attic fans.
    The purpose of attics fans is not windchill, but is a nice side effect.
    It exchanges the HOT air in the attic (and house) for RELATIVELY cooler
    air from outside.
    Result is LOWER temperature (Read, Not perceived) indoors.
    That's why thermostats can work under correct conditions on attic fans.

	    For a whole house fan to work best, it should draw the chilled 
	cellar air 'through' the house and blow it into the attic.  This 
	relatively cool air will force the hot air out of the attic.
	    If you run a WWF during the day but don't draw the air solely
	from the cellar, you could actually heat your house quicker than
	not running the fan at all.  The insulation in your house can trap
	last nights cool air inside but the WWF can replace this with the
	very warm air just outside your walls.  In general, they're not
	really useful for daytime operation.	
	    Nobody can convince me that a whole house fan can replace a
	paddle fan.  The WWF cools your attic by forcing cirulation in it.
	A paddle fan cools your body by evaporating perspiration.  They
	generate a strong breeze, and quietly.  Neither device cools air 
	but they can compliment each other very nicely.
	    If you really want to keep your house cool, plant shade trees
	south east and south west of it.  

					Tim

    WWF's can cool a house when the temp indoors in higher than the
    outdoor temp. By opening windows on the north side (or using the
    cellar windows), you draw the coolest air into the house to
    circulate, and exit into the attic. Cooling the attic helps in
    keeping the house cooler. Naturally, you can't make it any cooler
    than the temp of the coolest source of air.
    
    John

    re .13
    
    I beg to differ on a WHF's ability to cool through evaporation.  The
    way we use it is to open windows in the room(s) you are in at the time
    plus a few others in key spots.
    
    The breeze can be so strong that our cats have to use their claws just
    to stay on the windowsill and we actually had to pull one down from the
    bottom of the fan day. 8^)
    
    Actually, the breeze is substantial, and it will blow the doors off of
    the cooling from a paddle fan.  Plus, it's not dragging down the hot
    air trapped at the ceiling, it's blowing it out of the house through
    the attic.  I agree that both is better than one, but if I could only
    use one it would be the whf.
    
    Paddle fans work better in the winter, IMHO.  But, do as you will.
    
    /greg

    
    I'm sure a WHF won't do my house a bit of good. I've got over 15" of
    insulation in my attic. I doubt that any heat is getting into the house
    from the attic. The way I cool my house is with a window fan mounted in
    a window on the North side of the house. During the night I keep it
    running. Then during the day, I close all the windows and shades, and
    the house is at least 20 degrees cooler then the outside.
    
    Mike

    
    Re:.-1 If that was true then you would only have to heat your
    house once in the fall. You do get a lot of heat from attic
    even with 15 inches.
    
    WHF does several things.
    
    Removes hot air from attic.
    Removes hot air from house.
    Sources can be funneled through a cool room (cellar) to create cooler
    air
    Can create a very nice windchill even stronger than a paddle fan.
    Can be even quieter than a paddle. Depending on location which may
    include the roof.
    
    It does evening a paddle fan does (Except look pretty) and a whole
    lot more.

    
    re .17
    
    Not true. Most of my heat loss is through the walls and windows. Very
    little is getting out from above. Also it's much harder for the hot air
    to push it's way DOWN from the attic, especially through 15" of
    insulation.
    
    Mike

    
    Everyone looses heat through the ceiling into attic, in winter.
    Everyone gets heat from attic, in summer.
    
    HOW much is a matter of opinion and your conditions.
    

	re .15  You must have one hefty WHF!  Comical visions of cats 
	hanging on to window sills for dear life come to mind.  8^)
	    How about this:  A WHF is only practical when it can draw
	in air cooler than the air that's already in the house.  If
	you run it during the day and it's hot outside, you will most
	likely raise the temperature inside your house.  So, even if 
	you are creating a breeze, it will be warm and unrefreshing.
	    A paddle fan will only move around the air that's inside
	your house.  Hopefully, this will be relatively cool air.  If
	you use a whole house fan efficiently, have decent insulation,
	plus close all your windows and shades during the day, a paddle
	fan can make a room much more comfortable.  Both fans running
	at the same time are still cheaper to run than A/C.
	    The cheapest and most efficient way to keep your attic cool
	would be a good ridge/soffit vent system.  No moving parts, no
	electricity.  But that's a whole other note altogether.

	    I still say a (decent) paddle fan is quieter than a whole 
	house fan.  True, the WHF may be located where you can't hear
	it, but that wouldn't be possible in my house.  A paddle fan
	runs at lower R.P.M.s than a WHF but still moves a lot of air
	because the blades are so long.

					Tim

    
    .-1 it right. There are times when you cannot use the attic fan
    when you could use a paddle fan. Very good point.
    

    
>>    Everyone looses heat through the ceiling into attic, in winter.
>>    Everyone gets heat from attic, in summer.
    
>>    HOW much is a matter of opinion and your conditions.
    
    Not true.... Heat rises. It's much harder for heat to go down, then up.
    If the heat is in the attic, and you have good insulation between the
    rest of the house and the attic, then this can be very minimal. There
    are these homes around the country called earth homes. These are
    superinsulated homes. The attic's are filled with about 25" of
    insulation. During the summer months these attics reach well above 100
    degrees. The house however is very cool. There are no WHF. If what
    you're saying is true, then these homes should be baking. But their
    not.
    
    Mike
    

    RE 13, 20 (Tim)
    
    That's a good point about the basement air.  Using a cheapo thermometer
    from Tandy that has a remote sensor, I found that there could be about
    25 deg difference between the basement air temp and the main house
    airtemp in the morning.  If you have FHA, by removing the lower plenum
    door from the furnace and switching it to "fan only" you can pump this
    cooler air into the main house.   It doesn't take long to equalise
    temperature, but it's just enough to cool the house off in the morning
    without using the a/c.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin

    
    I stand by my reply in .19 ("It's a matter of opinion").
    
    Earth homes stay cool by using the cool earth, if heat rises so
    well why does he need ANY insulation.
    
    Heat rises AND RADIATES (read, moves in ALL directions).
    
    You can slow how much it radiates (DOWN) but you can't stop it.
    

	Re .23  (Colin)

	    FHA to move cellar air into the rest of the house... I never 
	thought to open the plenum door.  Where IS the plenum door?  It
	must be near the plenum.  I know where that is, anyways.
	    So, you still filter the air, right?  This is definately
	something I'm going to have to look into.  Thanks for the idea!

					Tim

    
    Tim,
    
    It's the LOWER plenum door, where the fan and filter are.  Depending
    on your model, it may have a switch that kills the fan when the door is
    off (easily overidden with a bit of tape).  By way of caution, I only
    do this when the furnace is all shut down for the summer- including
    pilot.   Another potential risk is increased dust reaching the fan.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
>>    Earth homes stay cool by using the cool earth, if heat rises so
>>    well why does he need ANY insulation.
    
    To keep the heat in....Why do you have insulation???
    Earch homes can also be dangerous. One elderly couple had left their
    attic door open after they put something in the attic. They went to bed
    and were found dead the following morning from heat exhaustion. The
    tempurature inside their house reached over 100 degrees. Where was this
    heat comming from....Well from the attic. By keep that door closed the
    tempurature inside is 30 degrees cooler. Yes, I'll agree with you that
    heat radiates. But not too well through 15" - 30" of insulation. It may
    be a matter of opinion to you, but I know for a FACT that there is
    little or no heat getting into my house from the attic. And I CAN prove
    it.
    
    Mike

Re: .22 & .27

The only way you can "prove" that there is no heat flow from your 
attic into your house is to show that the temperature of the 
interior of your house is greater than or equal to the temperature 
of your attic. Heat flows from a high temperature to a lower 
temperature. Because there are no physically achievable, perfect 
thermal insulating boundaries, heat will flow from your attic into 
your house if the attic temperature is greater than the interior of 
your house. You may not like it, but thermodynamics doesn't care.

Joe

    
    I'm not saying, it dosn't flow at all. I'm saying that there is little
    or almost completely unmeasurable heat getting into the house from the
    attic. My attic is also well ventilated. The heat will take the least
    resistance out. If I was getting any measurable heat from the attic, my
    house would be hotter then it is during those hot days. But it isn't.
    People have come over to my house and were amased when they discovered
    that my house wasn't airconditioned. Any time during the summer you
    want to come over on a 90+ degree day, I'll show you how cool my house
    is without a WHF or airconditioning. I gurantee my house will be in the
    low 70's, and my attic will be well above 110.
    
    Mike

    
    Thankyou, .-2
    RE:.-1 Great I'm glade you have a cool house. But,
    
    There are so many variables that could contribute to this.
    
    What color is the house?
    Does it have black shingles?
    Do any trees shade it (at any time)?
    Is it on ledge?
    What direction does it face?
    How big are the eaves?
    How big are the windows and where do they face?
    How many stories is it?
    Is the attic ventilated?
    
    Attics fans are just one more contribution to helping help control
    a source of heat (the attic).
    
    You can't give all the credit to your insulation. 15" of insulation is
    not excessive, 12" is common. We have a summer house that has 12+
    inches of insulation but it don't do squat. Since we have a window 6
    slider doors wide and 2 1/2 stories high and it faces the evening sun.
    And the attic is the living space with black shingles. Talk about hot.
    

    re .-1
    What difference does it really make? Keeping a house cool in the
    summer is not rocket science. With a little common sense, some
    decent window shades, and adequate insulation, most houses can
    be kept below the outside temp. Sure, having a passive solar
    design helps tremendously, but even otherwise, it's not
    impossible.
    
    John

    
    WHF's may work on your house, but why would I buy one when my house is
    so cool????? Yes, I agree with you that there could be other factors
    contributing to how cool my house is. But I'll stand by my statement
    that my main factor is the 15" of insulation. During the real hot days
    in the summer, my attic is well over 110, if not 120. I have a 2 story
    house. If I was getting a lot of heat from the attic, my second floor
    wouldn't be in the mid 70's. The heat in my attic is going to find the
    least resistance out. This is through the eve-fents and the sofits.
    It's a much easier path, then through 15" of insulation. Now if my
    attic didn't have any vents, then I'm sure it would be even hotter, and
    eventually it would get through the insulation.
    
    Mike

    Excuse me moderator but could we put an end to this battle of ego's.  I
    thought this note was about ceiling fans.  Thank you, Rob.

	Colin,

	    Ahh, my 'lower' plenum is on the side of my furnace.  The
	squirrel cage fan (which looks like a paddle fan, except that
	it's totally different) blows into the botton of the other 2/3's 
	of the unit.  And thus, we have the lower plenum!
	    But without the filtering, I'm afraid I wouldn't be inclined
	to utilize this method of redistributing air.  

					Tim

    
    Cut a large whole in the intake duct and put a grill (controlable) on it.
    Block this grill during winter. Open it during summer. To even boost it
    further block the instake from the house at the grill or at the
    returns.
    

    
     Or you could leave the door open to the fridge, but then that's a rat
    hole of a different kind. 8>) or you could buy one of those fans that
    NASA uses at the begining of their wind tunnels. ;>) Just be sure that
    you only place it on the north side of the house and then nail all the 
    furniture down and issue all occupants lead shoes. 8>) 8>) 8>).

I've read through notes 1279, 1847 and 2034 (misc contractors), but still have 
questions regarding 1) whether it's feasible to install a whole house fan in
my third floor, which used to be an attic, but was finished off and 2) who
would be the best person to consult with/do the installation.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Suzanne

    I'm not sure if this is the right note for this, but it is a question
    about ceiling fans, so here goes..
    
    I have a Hunter ceiling fan which is controlled via a remote control. 
    The fan also has a light kit attached to it (both fan/lite are
    controlled from the remote).  The remote has 3 speeds for the fan and a
    "dimmer" for the light.  For the 1st year, everything was fine.
    	However, now when I want to turn the light up all the way to full
    intensity, it doesn't happen.  Instead, it will go to about 1/2 to 3/4
    intensity and after about 1-5 minutes, it will "jump" to it's full 
    brightness...I replaced the light kit thinking that would solve the
    problem...no luck...
    
    My question is...do you think this is a problem w/ the fan and the
    wiring of the fan...or is it a problem with the wiring outside the fan
    (ie: what the electrician did when they built the house - the house is
    only a year old)???
    
    Would appreciate any and all replies...thanks!
    						
    								-SKD-
    
    
    

    
    Have you added something new to the line that the lights
    are on???  Bulbs tight?  Might want to check the voltage?
    
    JD

Could be the dimmer.  I had one that would shut off as it approached full
intensity.  

    re.38
    
    Nope..haven't added anything new to the line.  Checked the voltage -
    looked fine at 120V...
    
    re.39
    
    I'll check the dimmer 2nite...did you repair or replace yours??
    
    Thanks!
    
    						-SKD-
    

    I have a ceiling fan, make unknown, that first started humming pretty
    loudly at low speed (3 speed fan by pull chain), then wouldn't
    start without a push on low speed. Then I seemed to loose high speed
    and only had middle and low.
    
    Reading all the past notes would indicate  the bearings are shot
    but I would "think" that if that was the case, other things would show
    up like vibration etc. There is no vibration. Turning by hand indicates
    that things are tight and smooth.
    
    I thought maybe the 3 speed switch was going bad and loosing one speed
    was cutting the current to the motor and affecting low speed. I havn't
    been able to find a "direct" replacement but have tried others with
    no success.
    
    Any suggestions, or is bearing failure still the popular thought.

>    Any suggestions, or is bearing failure still the popular thought.

	    A switch would be an easy thing to replace.  But... the fan 
	is probably a cheapo and not worth repairing.  You might consider
	replacing it with a quality brand, such as a Hunter (brand name).

					Tim

    
    Some Cheaper fans have a start-up capacitor/capacitors which sole
    purpose is to get the fan started. There is a tremendous strain on
    these and they will burn out causing the problem you stated (having to
    turn the fan by hand to get it started). If it actually opens it can
    cause the other problems you stated.
    
    I searched for 3 years to find the black box with 2 caps with no
    success. Even separate caps would have worked...no luck...bought
    another cheapo fan........................
    
                                        -Steve
    

    Finding a replacement switch has been next to impossible. It's a 6
    wire switch and all I've been able to find are 3 wire.
    
    There "is" a big black capacitor in the wiring which is probably a
    startup cap. It has 3 wires coming out of it. A yellow and blue on one
    end and a red on the other. I'd probably have as much luck finding one
    of those also.
    
    Looks like it's time for a new fan. I wish I could figure out the
    manufacturer's secret. The secret of how they insure that their product
    will go bad "just" when you need it. 8^)
    
    Thanks for the replies.

    The blower in my window mount AC did the same thing; high speeds got
    slower, low speed stopped altogether but hummed...
    
    A couple drops of oil fixed the problem.
    
    Edd (who has reached EOB at DEC. Adios home_owners!!)

    So...  That humming noise that comes from both the ceiling fans I
    put in can be because of the dimmer switch that is in the wall?
    
    If I change that out to a regular wall switch I might solve this 
    problem?
    
    Chip

    
    Re .56:
    
    1) A "dimmer switch", meant for incadescent lighting loads *only*, will
       definitely produce a hum and may damage the fan motor.
    
    2) Even the proper wall-mounted variable-speed fan control may cause
       unacceptable hum, especially (in my experience) if the fan has
       discrete speed settings (eg, Hi-med-low)
    
    My ceiling fan was originally controlled by a variable speed control,
    and produced unacceptable hum, especially at mid-speed settings. I
    changed to an on-off wall switch, and now my fan has no hum and two
    operating modes (switched via ladder or long stick):
    
    o  low and up in the winter
    
    o  high and down in the summer
    

	    Most household wiring runs the feed (supply) voltage into the
	ceiling box.  The switch is fed from and returns to this box.  Look
	inside the box.  If there are at least two sets of wires, the wiring
	may be as I described above.  You can connect the fan wire to the 
	feed and the lighting wire to the switched return.  With this wiring,
	the fan can only be turned on or off from the pull chain switch
	    If there are only two wires in the box, replace the dimmer with
	a standard switch.

					Tim

        Being a novice home owner, I thought the ceiling fan would be an easy
    project.  (Reading the box, it guaranteed it!)  Well once I found out
    the three wires that were supposed to be there (green, white, black)
    were not, (only two black) and that the ceiling light fixture was
    basically painted on (no electrical box) the projects too on a new 
    dimension.

    I thought because I had only two wires, I was getting the humming
    noise...

    (BTW, HQ sold me the dimmers that were RF, sold in the ceiling fan
    area, did they give me a bad tip?)

    Anyway, I use the chain for them anyway, so I'll just change them to
    a on/off switch)

    Thanks,

    Chip

>    were not, (only two black) and that the ceiling light fixture was
>    basically painted on (no electrical box) the projects too on a new 

	    I don't know if I understand this, but it sounds like the 
	ceiling fan wasn't installed properly.  Code requires that the 
	fan is securely mounted so that it doesn't fall off and kill 
	somebody.

					Tim

Simple responses first:

>>    (BTW, HQ sold me the dimmers that were RF, sold in the ceiling fan
>>    area, did they give me a bad tip?)

This is the correct dimmer type for motor controls.

>>    I thought because I had only two wires, I was getting the humming
>>    noise...

Humming and number of wires are not related.

>>        Being a novice home owner, I thought the ceiling fan would be an easy
>>    project.  (Reading the box, it guaranteed it!)  Well once I found out
>>    the three wires that were supposed to be there (green, white, black)
>>    were not, (only two black) and that the ceiling light fixture was
>>    basically painted on (no electrical box) the projects too on a new 
>>    dimension.

Two BLACK wires?  No ELECTRICAL box?  Sounds like SJ cable run up by someone
into the attic to mount this thing... hmmmm how old is this house?  This could
be knob-in-tube wiring.

You will have to install a box designed to hold a ceiling fan.  They sell them
at any of the 'big' hardware stores.  They offer ones that come with a bar that 
you can tighten between the ceilings rafters to secure the box correctly.  The
box then clamps to that bar.   The ceiling fan attaches to the box.

Screwing the fan's mounting bracket to the ceiling is NOT an option and adds a
bit of danger to the room !

bjm

    Yeah, the fan only spins until the wires become so twisted that the fan
    has to spin backwards for awhile!  ;-)

    Seriously...

    I installed two ceiling boxes and screwed directly into the joist.  I 
    could hang my body of off them they are so secure.  I have also used the 
    expandabar for other ceiling fixtures (not fans) in other rooms.  The 
    electric is knob and tube wiring (House was built 1927).  The prior ceiling
    fixtures were all screwed into the lathe...

    So I covered the mounting of the fans to something secure, and
    anticipating three wires, my only mention of the two black wires
    was to point out that I didn't know if the wires are connected
    to the right fan wires (i.e., back and white)

    Someone told me that it really doesn't matter which black wire I have
    hooked to the white fan wire, and if there is a difference (i.e., I
    hooked the two wires to the wrong "black" wires, maybe that is
    why the fans are humming)

    Anyway, I am going to get on/off switches to replace the dimmer
    switches.                                  

    Thanks.

    Chip

>                                                             The prior ceiling
>   fixtures were all screwed into the lathe...

So they were already spinning, right?

    Ummm...  They were just light fixtures.  (as opposed to heavy, I guess)
    
    ;-)

RE:  <<< Note 1279.64 by CSOA1::BACH "They who know nothing, doubt nothing..." >>>

>>    Ummm...  They were just light fixtures.  

     I think the joke was in regard to them being screwed into the LATHE,
as opposed to them being screwed into the LATH.

                                      Greg

    Actually, I got it.  Although I was unaware how to spell LATHE...
    
    That Gerald...

	We just bought a Hunter ceiling fan on sale.  It's a 52 inch
	fan, with a light-kit included.

	Before we saw the "sale" fan, we had in our cart another 52 inch
	Hunter fan without light kit.

	The price difference was $100.

	From box comparisons, the only differences I read were

	1 - more expensive version is made of cast iron (I assume this
	    is the motor housing, not the motor itself)  
	
	  - sale version said painted metal

	2 - lifetime warranty on expensive fan, 20 year on sale model

	3 - Mounting assembly on expensive explicitly stated it was designed
	    to reduce vibration to the *house* - sale version made no special
	    claims
	
	I assume that the heavier fan will vibrate less, though both
	fans claim to be "whisper quiet" and "wobble-free"

	All other Hunter quality statements matched word-for-word on the
	boxes.

	We want a quiet, durable fan.  We're willing to buy the more
	expensive fan, but only if it's going to do something for us that
	the other model won't.  Anyone have any ideas ?

	(Passport II model, ~$70, Original model, ~$170)

	Karen

     The original has a more powerful motor, the most powerful motor
    available (as I understand it.) It'll also last forever. We bought
    two hunter fans for our house; the one over the kitchen table had 4
    blades and was ~70; the one for our bedroom was the original (5 blades,
    heavy duty motor) since we have a cathedral ceiling. I think the answer
    is related to how long you plan on living where you are living and how
    much air you want to move.

	Thanks.


	We want this to last, and we want to put the fan in our
	master bedroom, which is something like 13 x 19.

	We'll probably bring the "sale" fan back and get the Original.

	Thanks,
	Karen

    "Wobble-free" is a crock -- my experience with Hunter fans
    (2 of 2) is that they wobble quite a bit!  They do come with
    a do-it-yourself balancing kit, which is helpful, if a pain-in-the
    neck.  Even so, I'm happy with the fans.

    	We have two Hunter fans, a "Sea Breeze"???, 52 inch 5 blade for about 
    $70  and a Hunter "Original", 52 inch 4 blade for about $190.  We've had 
    both of them running continuosly, since they were installed, for nearly 4 
    years.  We run them 24hrs/day all year long, stopping them only cleaning 
    and changing fans rotation direction each Fall and Spring.
    	The Sea Breeze is much lighter in weight due to the lower quality
    construction.  It weighs about 14 lbs.   The Original weighs about
    40lbs, definitely a well built and durable fan.  One aspect of ceiling
    fans that should be considered is the volume of air that they can move.
    When we put both Hunter fans on their highest speed setting, there is no
    comparison between the two.   The Hunter Original spins faster and moves 
    alot more air than the lower priced Hunter.  We also feel that the
    Origial is quieter and at the lowest speed setting it turns slower...
    Sort of the look you'd expect in an old fashion cafe.
    	We noticed that the Brass finish on Hunter fans is a different color 
    than most other Brass finishes. What this means is when you buy a down
    tube or light kit or ceiling mount or whatever, it won't match the
    brass on the fan unless it's made by Hunter.
    	Overall we really like both our Hunter fans.  If we had to do it
    all over again, I would pay the extra $ and get the top of the line
    Hunter fan. You DO get what you pay for.

    My electrician explained that a fan with an odd number of blades will
    wobble with a cathedral ceiling because there is always one blade
    closer to the ceiling than any other and so the air pressure between
    that blade and the nearest ceiling is minutely higher causing an
    imbalance that would not be had with an even number of blades.
    Is it true? Is he f.o.s?  beats me but it made sense at the time
    and I was freezing so I left it at that.
    
    ed

As opposed to one with an even number of blades?  With that there's _almost_
always one blade closer to the ceiling.  Sounds like a crock to me.

    re: 1279.72        
    
     if that were true it would be impossible to have a wobble free ceiling
    fan installation on an elevated ceiling, which is not the case. (I
    think that's the term they use to describe a ceiling which is angled on
    only one side.
    
                     /
                    /
                   /
                  /|
                 / |
                /  |
               /   |
              /    |
             /  ===X===
            /

>As opposed to one with an even number of blades?  With that there's _almost_
>always one blade closer to the ceiling.  Sounds like a crock to me.
    
      Sounds as the electrician is assuming all cathedral installations 
      are done at the peak... in which case a fan with an even number of
      blades would opposing blades equally close to opposing ceilings.
      Whereas a fan with odd number of blades wouldn't.
    
      Nonetheless... still sounds like a crock. ;-)
    

    .74 "vaulted".
    
    .75 since he was installing into my ceiling, that's what he
    was assuming, crock or not.  I think it's just "male answer
    syndrome"  :-)
    
    ed

Seems to me a strategically placed air shredder would take care of
any imbalance caused by an odd number of blades.

    We have a Hunter fan in our cathedral-ceiling bedroom (there when we
    bought the house). I have to admit it is the NOISIEST fan I have ever
    had (and I've had a total of 6 ceiling fans in other homes). SO much
    for their advertisements as being the quietest fans. It sounds as
    though someone threw a handfull of stones into the blade rotating
    mechanism. I've checked it as much as possible without taking it down
    and can't find any loose parts. The next step is to take it down.
    Does anyone know of anywhere in the GMA/Nashua are who will fix this
    thing? Is the lifetime warrenty still good even though I didn't buy it
    myself? I'm considering just replacing the whole thing with a
    lesser/cheaper brand (just bought 2 for the other bedrooms for $40 at
    Home Depot and they're MUCH quieter!)
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Debbie
     

    re .77
    
    Only the cordless shredder would dissolve the imbalance.  On 110v
    models, the cord acts as a harmonic converger with the air current and
    causes a subtle hum in the roof rafters.  Not noticiable during the
    day, but just try getting to sleep at night.  

I have a 5 blades fan hung at the peak of my porch roof.  It operates with nary
a wobble, and it's a cheapo brand from BJs.

    re:78
    	
    	We purchased a round globe to replace the open face globe that came
    on a fan with the house I bought. The globe itself will sometimes
    vibrate. I need to put some foam or something in between the screws
    that hold the globe on and the globe itself. Could this possibly be your 
    noise source too ?
    
    	As far as fans I've bought, I've just gone with the El Cheapo 42"
    four blade 3-speed reversable jobs that run between $20 to $25 each.
    Haven't had a problem with them yet. If I have to replace one after 10
    years I'm ahead of the game. So far, they're fairly quiet and work
    well.
    
    	Ray

>     	We purchased a round globe to replace the open face globe that came
>     on a fan with the house I bought. The globe itself will sometimes
>     vibrate. I need to put some foam or something in between the screws
>     that hold the globe on and the globe itself. Could this possibly be your 
>     noise source too ?

	They sell special (only in that they are the right size it
	appears) rubber bands for that.  My $20 fans (with light)
	came with the rubber band ....

re .78

Debbie,

I have two Hunter fans installed in my cathedral ceiling.  I can't tell
that they are on unless I fell the air movement or look up.  Sounds like
you have a bad one which should be replaced.

						Mark

	Thanks for all the input.

	We do have a vaulted ceiling, and a large room, so we
	returned the Passport and bought the Original.

	We want it quiet, since it's our bedroom.

	My b-i-l works for an electrical supply company that
	used to sell fans for residential use, and his only
	piece of advice was "just don't buy one of those $40
	fans" ;-)

	Karen

	

    Anybody know how to reverse the direction of rotation on a Hunter
    original?

    For that matter, which way is "summer" and which way is "winter"? I
    looked through all these notes and couldn't find it!  Clockwise
    rotation for cooling? Or do I have it backwards?
    Sarah
    

>>    Anybody know how to reverse the direction of rotation on a Hunter
>>    original?

There isn't a little switch on the fan housing?

bjm

     As far as rotation direction relating to seasons, you want the fan 
    to draw air up in summer and blow air down in winter. 
     In other words, you want all that heat that rises to the ceiling
    to get pushed back down in winter.
     Clockwise or counterclockwise would depend on the set of your
    blades.
     check the motor housing for a switch to reverse direction.
    
    Bob

>                     <<< Note 1279.86 by HOTLNE::CORMIER >>>
>                -< Clockwise or counter-clockwise for summer? >-
>
>    For that matter, which way is "summer" and which way is "winter"? I
>    looked through all these notes and couldn't find it!  Clockwise
>    rotation for cooling? Or do I have it backwards?

Most mfgr's instructions tell you to set the fan to blow down in summer, 
up in winter.  Both directions mix the air top to bottom, but blowing 
up in winter reduces the direct draft on the people below, which would tend
to chill them.  Blowing down with  a draft in summer is apparently desireable.
We use our fans only rarely in the winter, but leave them set to blow 
down all year.

Which way are CW and CCW?  Looking from above or below?
And it depends which way your blades pitch.
"Up" and "down" are less ambiguous.

- tom]

	I don't know if it's a standard, but on my fans it's a slider
	switch on the fan housing that controls air flow direction.
	The air flow's in the same direction as the switch setting
	(ie. down for down, up for up).

We had a notes collision between .88 and 89, and I notice that
we have diametrically opposed suggestions!
But I stand by mine...

>     As far as rotation direction relating to seasons, you want the fan 
>    to draw air up in summer and blow air down in winter. 
>     In other words, you want all that heat that rises to the ceiling
>    to get pushed back down in winter.

The latter statement is somewhat misleading, since blowing up or 
down will cause the air to mix and move hot air back down by displacement.
Of course, the difference between a 7'6" celing and a 13' cathedral
ceiling will make difference as to whether a down draft could be felt.
Do what's comfortable.

- tom]

    >As far as rotation direction relating to seasons, you want the fan
    >to draw air up in summer and blow air down in winter.
    >In other words, you want all that heat that rises to the ceiling
    >to get pushed back down in winter.
    
     That's exactly backwards. You want to blow down in summer in order to
    maximize the "wind chill." The cooling effect is not a function of
    blowing down cool air that has gathered at the ceiling; it is a
    function of the "wind." In the winter, you want to draw the cooler air
    from the lower part of the room and use it to push the warm air down
    the walls where it can mix with the ambient air.

    
     Ah, yes, I stand correctly corrected. I did have it bass-ackwards
    Sorry to mislead. 
    
     Bob

	    The Hunter Coastal Breeze is not made in this country.  Most, if
	not all, of their other models are made in the USA.  We have three
	Coastal Breeze's.  You can't hear anything but the woosh of the wind
	it creates.  None of that er... er... er... you get with many of the
	cheapos.	
	    To the person with the noisy Hunter.  That's the first time I
	ever heard anyone say that about a Hunter fan.  They have an excel-
	lent reputation for quiet, reliable fans.  I would never buy another
	brand.

					Tim

    It seems that fans are noisiest if you use a rheostat to control fan
    speed. (At least, that's what the salesclerk said, and it matches my
    experience.)

    
    I know everybody *loves* Hunter fans ... How about Hampton Bay ceiling
    fans, are they as reliable and good as Hunter ?

Hampton Bay is Home Depot's house brand, I believe.

> Hampton Bay is Home Depot's house brand, I believe.

	What do you mean by "house brand"?

     Home Depot contracts a firm to make fans for them. They call them
    "Hampton Bay" brand, realizing that marketing will be easier than if
    they call them "Home Depot" brand. Rather like going into Market Basket
    and getting "Market Basket" peanut butter.

    
    I have a Hampton Bay A/C.  The warranty card is sent into Whirlpool.
    
    /ab

Re: .99

	Ah, I see my confusion as I'm used to the term being called
	"store brand".  "house" I'm only used to being used in the
	context of restaurants (ex. "house dressing", "house wine", ...).

	In any case, doesn't K-Mart also carry the "Hampton Bay" brand?

Re: .100

Not all products carrying a house brand name are necessarily made by the same
company.  Sears is probably a prime example - their Kenmore appliances are
made by many different companies, sometimes different vendors within the
same product line.

				Steve

    re. 95 We dso have the fan on a rheostat, but it is the one which comes
    from Hunter. I'm about ready to climb up on the ladder and take every
    removeable piece off the fan to see if it stops the racket. Then add
    things back one at a time. Otherwise its time to call a store which
    sells Hunter and tell them to get out there to fix it!
    
    BTW, then we looked at the house before buying I remember thinking "A
    Hunter fan, great, no more noisy ceiling fan!".....wrong!
    
    Debbie
    

    re: Hampton Bay   These are the two I just purchased for the other
    bedrooms. So far they're fine, a little bit of the aforementioned
    er...er...er... sound, but we haven't balanced them yet. MUCH quieter
    than the Hunter.
    
    Debbie
    

Our Hunter, on a fan control (not a rheostat or lamp dimmer) is audible
only to the extent of the sound of the air flow.

hth,

Art

    Which speed control do you have? 
    
    Most "phase control" style speed controls will cause some noise; the
    "quiet" controls are capacitive and don't cause motor noise (but also
    only have a fixed number of speeds, usually three).
    
    If you have infinitely-variable speed, I'd swap the speed control..
    
    ...tom

    Speaking of ceiling fan lights, we have a Hunter ceiling fan with a
    light. One of the four bulbs keeps burning out- in a matter of days
    after being replaced. Any ideas what this problem might be and how to
    fix it?

    
    	I have the same problem, I cannot keep all the light bulbs 
    lit at the same time in any of my 3 ceiling fans, all under 3
    years old.  I even had one light bulb start smoking inside.  Maybe
    the fixture can't handle the lights and fan?  Forget buying those
    fancy bulbs for ceiling fans, they last about 3 hours!  Sue

    
    Many of the long, skinny, candle-flame-like bulbs say right on the
    package that they should not be used upside down.  It doesn't say why
    but perhaps it has something to do with heat rising into the base of
    the the bulb.
    
    Phil
    

    These are regular high efficiency blubs, not funny shaped ones.

> Speaking of ceiling fan lights, we have a Hunter ceiling fan with a
> light. One of the four bulbs keeps burning out- in a matter of days
> after being replaced. Any ideas what this problem might be and how to
> fix it?

	Is the fan in use?  The bulb (the filament) may not be able to
	handle the vibration (in fact I beleive there are special bulbs
	for use in places where there may be lots of vibration, like
	garage door openers).

	Is the bulb that burns out always in the same socket?  Or is it
	more random?

    >	Is the fan in use?  
    
     Not much since the summer, and when it is in use it's on the lowest
    speed.
    
    >	Is the bulb that burns out always in the same socket?  
    
     Yup.

Hunter VS. Hampton Bay

I know there is a long string of notes extolling the virtue of Hunter fans.  I
am convinced.  However due available styles and the desire to make my wife
happy, I am considering buying some Hampton Bay fans.  There has been some
discussion of these: .96-.101,.104.  If anyone else would like to comment on
their experience with this brand it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

    I have a question on the amount of electricity the fans use. 
    
    Does a ceiling fan use less electricity (per the meter) when it is
    on low speed vs high speed? Or does the fan use the same amount of
    electricity, just differently?
    
    Steve

    
    Re .256:
    
    The fan uses less power on a low setting. Your meter will slow down.
    
    A fan speed control might be a little more sophisticated than a lamp
    dimmer, but they both do the same basic thing -- they conduct for part
    of the alternating current cycle, then shut off for part. You can get
    the same effect by clicking a common wall switch on and off 120 times a
    second.