Conference 7.286::home_work

    I did this once and had no real problem.  You have to frame in the
    garage door and will probably want to re-arrange windows, etc.
    
    Assuming you have exposed joists and studs on the inside of the
    garage, you're all set to start insulating/wiring.
    
    One consideration is what to do with the ceiling.  You can make
    a cathedral ceiling if your current garage doesn't have any framing
    in the way.  Or you can put a conventional ceiling in and have an
    attic.  The cathedral ceiling is probably easier.  In either case
    you should investigate having sufficient venting - most garage soffits
    don't have vents.
    
    Biggest problem I had was the floor.  Like yours, it was very low
    and I wound up pouring a concrete dam around the perimeter of the
    slab to get things comfortably above water hanging around after
    heavy rains, etc.  Also most garage floors are not level (Mass
    building code actually requires a slope to keep any spilled gasoline
    etc away from the house).  This makes the floor framing more
    interesting.

    I believe Dave Barry has an interesting story on this very topic

    Be wary of state and local codes.  You can get into a hunk of problems
    if your "gargage" doesn't meet state or local building codes.  In
    most communities, once you apply for a permit everybody gets into
    the act including the Board of Health and they may find your addition
    requires additional capacity be added to your septic system. Best
    to "ask around" first before doing anything.
    
    Jim
    

From my experiences, septic system sizes are based on one single factor - the
number of bedrooms.  Therefore, you can add as many rooms as you like as long
as none of them are bedrooms.  I was thinking about getting a house, using one
bedroom as a den and adding another.  The building inspector told me I'd have to
enlarge the septic system OR remove the closet in the room I wanted to use as a
den, thereby keeping the number of bedrooms constant.

-mark

    We have done our zoning homework.  Taxes will rise because our rate
    is based on first floor living area square footage which will increase.
    If we were to add a powder room, then there would be a sewer rate
    increase also; we have city water and sewer, no septic tanks.
    
    re .2 
    
    I don't find Dave Barry listed in the DEC directory.  Is he a "Notes"
    contributor?  

>        I don't find Dave Barry listed in the DEC directory.  Is he a "Notes"
>    contributor?  

    
    Well maybe he had his phone disconnected!
    Look at NOTES file HYDRA::DAVE_BARRY.  Begin with note 1.0

From HYDRA::DAVE_BARRY articles of interest to DIY'ers..

  3     Hot Tubs: Some Bad Suggestions
 12     Worthless Answers to Your Insulation Problems
 16     Ask Dave: What is Electricity
 19     Kitchen Remodeling
 27     My Objections to Natural Cooling
 32     Hidden Bummers of Plumbing
 48     Do-it-Yourself Projects
 73     A Perfectly Stupid Shed
120     Walls (and the covering there-of)
128     Buying a Home is no Worse that Ants Biting Your Eyes
230     Humiliation Dogs the Do-it-Yourselfer Who Tries to Sell the House
259     How to Buy a House with No Room for Negotiation

    re: -.1
    
    	I believe the first article in the conference is How To Build
    A Board.  It's got to be one of the funniest.
    

<----- Of course, how could I have missed it!

                       GARAGE-->FAMILY ROOM CONVERSION

	Well, here I am, just moved from MA to CA, bought a house (change
that to read SMALL house) and want to E X P A N D. The obvious thing to
do would be to build a family room in the garage. After all, who needs a
garage in California ?? Excellent potential for conversion, the walls and
the roof are already there. Just pop out the door, frame an insert, face
the front of the garage, throw up some sheetrock and I'm there.

	Sounds too good to be true. Anybody out there converted the 
garage ?? I'd rather know the problems (if there is any) before I start.
Advice, comments, references would be appreciated.

Thanks, Ray

I used to live in San Jose and a neighbor put a family room into his 
garage.  It worked out fine.  If you do a good job you can even avoid it 
still looking like a garage when you're done.  I don't know about all the
codes and such but I'd say it's do-able.

Just one question.  In CA you don't need a garage - it's there to take the 
place of the basement which I'm assuming is missing.  Before you get 
started think twice about where you will do the stuff like sawing and 
building and painting etc.

Craig

    I did one once.   Pretty straightforward.  I only ran into two problems
    - First was that this was a cathedral ceiling post and beam house
    with some kind of foam board insulation above the roof planking
    (the rafters were exposed on the interior).  The insulation stopped
    at the garage - I wound up sheetrocking the ceiling in the new room
    in order to get a place I could stuff in conventional 6" insulation.
    
    The other problem is that many building codes require that garage
    floors have some small slope in them away from the living part of
    the house (worried about gasoline spills I suppose).  Even if such
    a code didn't exist, the levelness of most garage floors is suspect.
    So rather than just throwing 2*4 sleepers on the concrete, I wound
    up with an unexpected elaborate system of shims.
    
    Also check drainage!  A bit of water in a garage from rain running
    down the driveway is tolerable.  If that opening becomes a wall,
    you could have a problem.
    

	Well, the problem of storage and where the workshop should be is
manageable. One of the attractions of this house is the fact that it's on
a third of an acre. Now, I know that that's miniscule by New England standards,
but by Californian standards that's pretty huge. SO, before I start on the
garage conversion, I need to build a shed. Fortunately there already is
a note on sheds in this conference.                    

	On the subject of the floor, I have two thoughts in my mind at the
moment..........

    o	A split level floor would be nice, in which case I could build the
floor more or less on top of the concrete using the sleeper and lotsa shims
technique. But I've been wondering about ventilation. How could I make
provision for ventilation ??

    o	Maintaining the grade of the existing floor would be easy, and also
make ventilation easy too. But then the room would be boring.

	
Any ideas ??
Ray

    Not quite on the subject - but depending on where you live, you may
    want the garage to protect your vehicles at night.  I had a stereo
    stolen out of my car one night - I was dumb enough to leave it in my
    *own driveway*!
    
    andy

    
    We lived in a house in Livermore where the garge had been converted
    and found it very nice. The person who did it put a lot of time
    and money into it and I took a couple of notes. here are some of
    the things he did.
    
    FLOOR - he framed the front and inside walls and poured another
    two inches of concrete right over the existing slab so that the
    floor was now level. No shims or sub floor. then he laid the tile
    right on that like a typical California slab floor.
    
    WALLS - where the garage door had been he of course framed in a
    new wall with a picture window and on the side wal had a regular
    window and door. (your ventilation) Around the walls he had built
    what amouts to a deacons bench. Sections of the bench lid lifted
    for use as toy boxes and extra storage if required. 
    
    CEILING - I don't know wether it was sheet rock or plaster cuz I
    never climbed up to look but the air conditioning and heater vents 
    were there as well as a ceiling fan.
    
    There was one double outlet on the two side walls and two double
    outlets on the front and back walls. There was an antenna jack on
    each wall. It had track lighting. Wiring was over the ceiling and
    down the walls. There were two citcuit breakers in the box , one
    for lights and fan the other for outlets. both 15 amp. (Don't yell
    this was 15 ywears ago.)
    
    To make up for the loss of the garage it had a covered car port
    out front and a shed for storage in back.
     

    
    That sounds like an awfully COLD floor.  Course if it's in
    California...
    
    I take it Livermore is in California.  That would not do here in
    New England.

    
    
    I could always tell when there had been a frost in the winter by
    counting the cracked windshields on passing cars. (hot water instead
    of scrapers to get rid of the ice.) Livermore is in the far eastern
    end of Alameda County, east of Oakland and sheltered from San Francisco
    Bay by hills. 

    Thanks for the info to us with the geographic blinders.
    
    Actually, I must have been background processing this info as I
    reached for my morning cup of coffee the thought came from out of
    nowhere that this may be where Lawrence Livermore Lab is.
    
    I knew that was somewhere in California.

    
    
    formerly known as Lawerence Radiation Laboratory ( 7 reactors)
    
    in the area also General Electric Valecitos (5 reactors) 
    Sandia Corporation (3 reactors)
    
    In the time that we lived there and knew people who worked at all
    three sites there was only one "Accident" that was ever talked about.
    A contract construction worker went behind a some kind of screen
    that was around an area that was being used for isotope holding
    between one test and another.
    
    The isotope samples were stored individually in there own little
    safe containers but the project people still paniced and rushed
    the guy to a hospital and all sorts of tests. They found nothing
    then. Don't know about later.
    
    

You are asking for a lot of trouble, and if you proceed in the direction you
are headed, you'll probably find it.

Without going into a lot of detail, permits are required for very good reasons
(and are not *just* required when a 'structure' is being built) and as the
owner of the property, you should be *most* interested in getting them.  Zoning
is also done to protect you, the landower, and your neighbors.  How'd you like
a paint factory next door?  Or a lounge, or strip-joint?

If you do work without permits, you can be required to tear it out or live with
a "condemned - unsuitable for habitation" building on your land.  You could
also find out (the hard way) that your insurance doesn't cover such structures.

If you're not zoned for multi-family, the town won't allow you to rent the
apartment(s).

As far as septic, space, etc., etc., requirements/guidelines/advice are often
available from the permit-issuer.

Let's skip the political arguments about zoning.  The base noter is 
interested in the consequences.  

There are any number of illegal apartments in my neighborhood, even an illegal 
roominghouse/nursinghome and as far as I know, none of them have been hassled, 
nor have any of them caused any trouble to the neighborhood.  My immediate 
neighbor built a mighty garage with a second floor (we call it the Taj Garage) 
which he uses in his business. A year later he added elecric power and water 
service.  Some day somebody will move into it. I've let him know I won't be 
dropping a dime on him for an illegal apartment, but he understands that also 
means I don't want to see a honky-tonk opening up there either (or even a Soft 
Rock Cafe).  And, I might not feel so kindly  toward the next person who owns 
the property.

	Given that those two notesfiles are read by a rather significant
	proportion of DEC employees (many, many thousands). And given
	that, working at SHR, you're probably living in an area with
	many DEC employees. And given that some people don't have any
	qualms against sharing notes with people outside DEC when it
	suits them (people in this notesfile in particular should be
	aware of that), your slim chance of being undiscovered probably
	evaporated the second you entered this note...

	Also, another practical consideration. What happens if you
	build these apartments without permits and inspections,
	and a tenant manages to burn the place down (or worse yet,
	takes your house with it). What do you think your insurance
	company is going to say when you file your claim? 

	A very bad idea...

	Mike

Where is this?  Penalties, fines, and procedures vary from locale to locale.

You could be fined.  In MA, the fine for zoning violations can be as high as
$300/day.  I think there may be additional fines for septic system violations.

You can be required to remove all work that was done without a permit.

In some jurisdictions, you may be required to pay back taxes (I'm not sure
about MA).

You may have trouble getting a construction loan, especially in the current
economic climate.  It's not unusual for banks to ask to see plot plans (which
typically indicate whether the property is in conformance with zoning bylaws),
building permits, and occupancy permits.

If you rent it out, and your tenants take a disliking to you, you may find it
impossible to collect back rent, and they may even turn you in.

When it comes time to sell the property, you may find it impossible to get
title insurance because of zoning violations, and therefore impossible for you
to sell the property at all.

What it boils down to is that if you don't get caught, then the question is
moot.  You may as well be asking what happens if you rob a bank, so long as you
don't get caught.  If you do get caught, then some of the possible 
consequences are listed above.

   Gary

    The method I've usually used is to simply call up some official
    in the building/zoning/whatever department and ask them if they
    could tell me "can I <whatever>" or "how does one <whatever>".
    Don't volunteer your name, for building code stuff call early
    in the morning (inspectors & such are usually there early in the
    day before they do their inspections).  Usually gets me the answer
    I need without worrying about exposing myself.

Or just drop by Town Hall (or get someone else to do it) and pick up or buy
a copy of the zoning bylaws and the Board of Health regulations.  They
shouldn't need your name for that.

   Gary

     The consequences aren't nearly as dire as some have suggested.  I 
assume that the doomsayers are not speaking from any kind of experience, 
whereas I will.  I had a three family house in a two family zone in 
Arlington, MA for several years.

     As for being 'found out' and revealing yourself in the notesfile, 
there are varying degrees of being 'found out.'  All your neighbors will 
figure out whats going on about two days after the extra cars start being 
parked in your driveway or in front of your house.  You woun't be hiding 
anything from them.

>Where is this?  Penalties, fines, and procedures vary from locale to locale.
>
>You could be fined.  In MA, the fine for zoning violations can be as high as
>$300/day.  I think there may be additional fines for septic system violations.

     Yeah, but you won't.  Not only was my house not zoned correctly, it 
was one foot closer to the side boundary than the zoning allowed.  Unless 
the boundary line was changed after the fact, which is highly unlikely, it 
means the house was built that way.  So somebody made a mistake.  When the 
town tries to fine you, you simply say 'hardship.'  No money changes hands.

>You can be required to remove all work that was done without a permit.

     See hardship, above.  They won't make you rip anything out, but they 
may stop you from using it in the way you intended (see below).

>In some jurisdictions, you may be required to pay back taxes (I'm not sure
>about MA).

     It is advisable to get the town to assess your property as it is 
actually being used.  Mine was assessed as a three family and paid taxes 
that way the whole time I owned it.  

>You may have trouble getting a construction loan, especially in the current
>economic climate.  It's not unusual for banks to ask to see plot plans (which
>typically indicate whether the property is in conformance with zoning bylaws),
>building permits, and occupancy permits.

     No experience from which to comment.

>If you rent it out, and your tenants take a disliking to you, you may find it
>impossible to collect back rent, and they may even turn you in.

     Absolutely not true and spoken by somebody who is speculating.  You 
can haul them into court just like anybody else you have a contract with.  
However, more about being turned in, below.

>When it comes time to sell the property, you may find it impossible to get
>title insurance because of zoning violations, and therefore impossible for you
>to sell the property at all.

     Absolutely not true and spoken by somebody who is speculating.  You 
can be entirely upfront about what you're doing.  Having income producing 
property will make your property more attractive.

     The buyer (like me and the person I sold to) is entirely aware that 
they may be subject to the whims of the tenants, neighbors, and town 
officials.  It was in fact my neighbor who got pissed off at me who turned 
me in to the town.  By bypassing the building inspector, who could 
exercise his own judgement and discretion, the neighbor ended up forcing 
me to disconnect the drain in the 3rd floor kitchen sink.  That rendered 
the third floor unusable as a separate apartment, and was the extent of 
the 'ripping out of unlicensed work.'  The solution was to appease the 
neighbor, who stopped complaining to the town, which then forgot all about 
it and didn't notice when the third apartment started being used again.  In 
fact, the place was sold in the middle of the whole thing!!  So much for 
impacting salability!!

>What it boils down to is that if you don't get caught, then the question is
>moot.  You may as well be asking what happens if you rob a bank, so long as you
>don't get caught.  If you do get caught, then some of the possible 
>consequences are listed above.

     My flame:  All laws are selectively enforced, zoning laws included.  
You can be held hostage to any neighbor or tenant or zoning board that has a
chip on his shoulder, just as you could theoretically be given a speeding
ticket for going 65 on the Mass Pike.  You have to assess that risk.  In 
general, I think the risk is low.

Most towns (even the snooty (snotty) ones) will allow an "in-law" apartment in 
a single family area.  (Maybe you have 2 sets of "in-laws" ;-)  There is a good 
chance you could get a single apartment over your garage legally.  Check it out.
Then it is a smaller infraction for renting to non-in-laws.  I would be con-
cerned about the insurance ramifications.  What if the tenant falls down the 
stairs from the second floor garage apt?  The insurance company may not pay.  
You lose. (big time)  Cover your a$$ets here.

Stan

re: .9

Your basic point, that what could legally happen is much worse than what is
likely to happen, is correct, but much of your details aren't.

First, it's a big mistake to compare Arlington, which is a city in all but
the legal sense, to a more rural or suburban community.  People in Arlington
have better things to do with their time.  People further out don't, so they
worry more about how their neighbors are hurting property values.  It's also a 
mistake to compare a three family in a two family zone to a two family in a one 
family zone.  The former isn't likely to affect neighboring property values
very much, while the latter is (or at least people are likely to perceive things
that way).  Hence the people living in a one family neighborhood are far more
likely to raise a fuss than the people in a two family neighborhood (many of
whom are also landlords, and thus more sympathetic to the landlord view).

The statute of limitations for correcting physical zoning violations (i. e., 
those related to construction) is six or ten years (depending on some complex 
circumstances).  I don't know when your house was built, but there's a good
chance it's too late for the town to make you do anything about.  Even if
they wanted to, it's unlikely that they would get upset over a one foot
incursion into the setback zone; an apartment is a vastly different story.

You are correct in suggesting that it's rare for the fines to be enforced.
The town isn't interested in the money (at least, not until recently).  They're
interested in enforcing the zoning bylaws.  So they don't bother with 
fines unless the owner stubbornly refuses to correct the problem (but it would
be bad advice to tell someone they won't be fined; you can't guarantee that).

I can believe that the Arlington assessor's office doesn't squeal to the
Arlington building inspector.  But that's not true in many other more
rural towns, where the town employees work more closely.  You'd better believe
that in my town, if you told the assessor's office that you added an apartment,
and the assessor hadn't already heard from the building inspector, there's a 
good chance that the building inspector would be notified, and would be there
pronto.  Neither one is vindictive at all, and they'll usually try hard to help
you, but they pretty much like the idea that everyone plays by the same rules.

As for tenants, what to you suppose will happen if the tenants claim the
apartment fails to meet standards, by virtue of lacking an approved septic
facility?  Landlords have a difficult enough time collecting as is; I don't
see how you can say that this can't make things worse.

In the case of title insurance, it absolutely is true, speaking from 
experience.  Banks won't grant mortgages without title insurance.  Title 
insurance companies won't insure your title if they find out there's a current
zoning violation (for an obvious reason: they don't even want to argue with
you ove whether their insurance covers zoning violations, much less having
to pay to fix the violation).  No title insurance => no mortgage => no sale.

It's unlikely the title insurance company would find out about your third
apartment or find out that it's in violation, but it's far more likely that 
they'll find out about the second apartment in a garage, in a single family 
neighborhood.

   Gary

re: .10

My town allows so-called "in-law" apartments (we call them accessory apartments).
However, they're restricted to either family members (for a reasonable definition
of family) or to operation under a housing partnership program for low-income
tenants.

There's a major advantage for towns to do this in MA:  by providing more housing
for low-income tenants, it helps bring them into compliance with the state's
anti-snob zoning law.  Being in compliance means the town regains some control
that is overridden by the anti-snob zoning law.

   Gary

    There's an on-going case in Windham, NH where the elderly owners of the
    house built a detached garage with an in-law apartment apartment above
    it. They stayed in it and let one of their children live in the main
    house with her family. 
    
    The in-law apartment was plumbed without permit. Well about a year
    later the arrangement came under the scrutiny of the building
    apartment and was found to be in violation of the zoning provisions.
    After appeals to the Zoning Board, and Petitions on the annual election
    and Town meeting, they have not been granted a variance. They will be
    forced to either remove the plumbing, and stop using the apartment, or
    build a 50 foot long addition from the house to the attached garage so
    that the apartment could be considered an in-law apartment. (note: in
    our town an in-law apartment must be physically attached to the main
    structure - As built and occupied this is considered to be two
    dwellings.)
    
    The legal fees for all this have started to get rather high.
    
    Before we start hearing to much about how bad zoning laws are, consider
    the case of a neighbor I have. He moved in and had a little business in
    his basement, which wasn't really allowed in a Residential "A"
    neighborhood, but it was quiet. He built the house specially to
    accommodate the business. The building Dept never blinked an eye when
    his plans called for 600 Amp electrical service for a three bedroom
    house and a huge basement with reinforced floors. We really didn't mind
    it either until ....
    
    He hired four more people to work in his house. He was getting three
    deliveries a day from FEDEX, two deliveries a day from UPS, one
    delivery a day for Gas bottles, and liquid N2. He let two of his
    workers and their girl friends stay at his house until they could find
    a place to live (now we had an average of five cars parked in the
    street). The final straw was his unconcern about dumping his cleaning
    fluids (tri-chlor, alcohol, and CFC's down his septic system). One of
    the other neighbors dropped a dime and after a zoning fight he moved
    his business out of his house to a local industrial park and our
    neighborhood returned to normal. (This was not a true hardship for him
    since he used to brag that he cleared $200K a year, and he liked his
    business at home so he could write off most of his home on his taxes.)

    The zoning laws at least protected our neighborhood from being turned
    into a commercial zone.
    
    /jim                

re .13:

You've piqued my curiosity.  What kind of business requires 600 amp service
and reinforced floors, uses lots of bottled gas and liquid N2, and dumps
cleaning fluids?

re: .13

Your first case reminds me of a real similar case, in Tewksbury or Tyngsborough
I think, that was reported in the Globe a few weeks ago.  In that case, the
family was putting in an apartment for a handicapped, adult son.  It was a 
real tear jerker.  The town finally agreed to let them keep the apartment
so long as they built a breezeway connecting it to the main house, but the
family really couldn't afford it.  Within a few days, the Globe had a followup
story indicating that all sorts of donations of labor and materials had
poured in.

These are real tough cases for the boards that have to hear them.  The town
puts in these restrictive zoning laws because the voters perceive them to be
in their own best self interest.  (It takes a 2/3 majority to enact a zoning
bylaw in MA, either of the town meeting or of the city/town council, so they're
not easy to put in place.)  Then the board is caught between what the bylaws
(and the will of the people) require and their own compassion for the 
individuals who are constrained by the bylaws.

   Gary

Will coincidences never cease.

The case in Tyngsborough that I mentioned in .15 made the papers again over
the weekend.  The local zoning board agreed to give the owners a nine month
extension, in order for them to try to pass a zoning bylaw amendment that
would make their situation legal (tying it in with their special needs).

I like that philosophy: when the law is broken, don't just try to circumvent
it, try to fix it.

   Gary

    Zoning in Ma. depends on the town but there are state zoning
    guide lines. How the town enforces the zoning by laws depends on the
    town, the zoning officer the violation, the violator and the court. 

    I have seen where certain zoning laws were ignored because it was a
    selectman's relative that owned the property in violation. 

    There was a case similar to that in .0 where a garage was converted to an
    apartment in a single residence zone with no permits for construction,
    or variances to the zoning requested. To make a long story short, the
    violator had a habit of trying to get away without paying for permits
    and was rather nasty about it when asked. The town took the person to
    court over the issue and got a judgment where the person was fined 
    $1000 a day for every day that the violation existed (violation in
    this case would have been occupation of the apartment) PLUS the 
    apartment had to be removed. The person tried to get a zoning variance 
    for hardship (after the fact) claiming she needed the income and she
    couldn't afford a to pay the contractor to undo the work and she didn't
    know about the law.No variance because it was well known that she was 
    one of the wealthier people in town. Bottom line no apartment, no fine
    because no one ever moved into the apartment,she re-applied for permits
    to build a family room out of the garage and got that, and the
    contractor was sued by her for all costs for not having made sure she
    had the right electrical plumbing and construction permits before he
    started the work. 

    When we bought our house, the 1 car garage under the house had 
    been converted into a (mostly) finished room.  All that remains is 
    to finish off the floor.

    We plan to carpet the room and I was wondering what if anything I 
    should put down before I lay the padding and carpet (on the bare 
    garage floor)?  Sealer?  Plastic?


    We're not going to build a subfloor.

    Thanks

    -Phil

    Opinions differ on this.  In my parents home, they have a full finished
    basement.  Two of the rooms are carpeted (and one wall, makes for a
    great sound room).  My father just installed the carpet and pad right
    on the cement floor.  However, I dont know if I'd do that in my
    basement.  They have never had any water or condensation in their
    basement so they havent had any problems.
    
    Also, note 895 has some additional info on this.
    
    Good luck...Rhonda

>    Opinions differ on this.  In my parents home, they have a full finished
I'm sure they do!  ;-)

>    Also, note 895 has some additional info on this.
thanks Rhonda
    
-Phil

    In regards to not building a subfloor.  Why not?  Cost??
    
    The cost of replacing the pad and carpet if it gets any kind of major
    water/mildew damage would be cause enough for me to invest in the
    subfloor idea.  It would also insulate the area better and give you a
    better feel to the floor.  If it is space that is the question, a
    standard subfloor would only take 5 inches tops away from your vertical
    space.
    
    All of this, of course in IMHO.
    
    Good luck 
    
    Patrick

Hi,

	I have an estimate of $6,000 to convert a one garage under (split
	entry house) into a finished room.  Does this sound reasonable?

	Garage under dimen. 11' x 23'

	2 walls are finished, wallboard with rough coat plaster.  Ceiling
	is finished with wallboard rough coat plaster.

	

	  - This estimate does not include electrical, heat installation
    	    or carpet.

	o  Frame kneewall - insulate, 2x4's, wallboard and skim coat plaster.

	o  Build subfloor - 2x4's, 3/4" plywood.

	o  Remove garage door - build cinder block foundation (1 cinder block
	   high), frame exterior wall with bay window to replace garage opening.
	   Finish exterior with clapboards.

	o  Bay window (not sure of dimen.) included in estimate.

	o  Build 6' closet with shelf, bi-fold closet doors included.

	o  Do all inside trim around bay window, and two existing windows,
	   shelf (board) on knee wall, baseboard trim. 


Eleanor

  1256  CHOVAX::GILSON       24-JUN-1987     9  Garage Conversion to Living Space
  2316  WCSM::DODD           20-MAY-1988     9  Garage-->Family Room conversion
  4840  VAXWRK::OXENBERG     12-JAN-1993     2  garage conversion

    
    Yes, I did look at earlier entries as suggested and got some
    interesting tips.  I am looking for 1995 prices (x dollars per sq. ft,
    is that how carpenter's estimate a job?), so I can determine if $6,000
    is a fair price.  We are in the process of getting another bid, and 
    would like one more, but it is difficult to get any one to either call
    back to arrange a time to size up the job, or show up when they say
    they will.  Boy, business must be good!
    
    ems

    
>    Yes, I did look at earlier entries as suggested and got some
>    interesting tips.  I am looking for 1995 prices (x dollars per sq. ft,
>    is that how carpenter's estimate a job?), so I can determine if $6,000
>    is a fair price.  

So...

now when someone wants to look up this topic for info they'll have yet 
another note to keep track of.

Why does EVERYONE think it's wrong to stay in the same thread and simply 
ask. "Any up to date info in here, please?"


>                        but it is difficult to get any one to either call
>    back to arrange a time to size up the job, or show up when they say
>    they will.  Boy, business must be good!

Perhaps it has to do with the way you're going about things.  You've done a 
good job of alienating a few folks here, too.

In order for you to compare bids you are gonna have to get very
specific information about the bay window and the finish (clap boards).

You can pay any where between $300 and $1,300 for the window.  Good
quality cedar clap boards can be expensive as well.  Composite cement
or wood fiber boards are much less costly.

You are doing right by getting a couple of bids.  You will need to
compare apples to apples when the others come in.  Don't forget the
vapor barrier below the plywood floor.

and good luck

    
    Thanks for the input.  Moderator, please move to appropriate note.
    When I get another bid, I will include that information.  The second
    contractor was to give me a bid Monday.  Today is Friday and no bid,
    yet - another week lost.  I'll check the contractors note, perhaps the 
    contractors listed are more reliable than the one's I've been picking
    from newspaper ads.  I have had very poor luck.
    
    eleanor

    
    Just got another, bid, 2 weeks after the contractor said that he would
    have the estimate in the mail.  I had to call twice and leave a
    message.  The second call/message got his attention, as I said that I
    would be making a decision soon, and would like to include his estimate
    in my selection process.  I got his verbal reponse of $7,900 to do the
    job, and he said that the written estimate will be mailed to me soon.
    
    ems

    If the guy can't get his bid in on time, I certainly don't want to
    wait 6 months for my garage to get done.
    
    MadMike

    Last summer, I called 5 contractors for bids on a septic system.  All
    five said they were interested and would respond.  I got 3 back after
    calling and coaxing abit.  I feel that it depends on how much work they
    have at the time and how much they believe they will make on the job.
    
    Mark

    
    Here's the 3rd bid: $4,000.  Bid #1 was $6,000, bid #2 was $7,900.
    
    Bid #3 is tempting because of the $2,000 difference from the next bid,
    but, contractor #3 wants to do the sub-floor by nailing the pressure
    treated 2 x 4's flat side down, into the concrete floor.  No mention of 
    vapor barrier; would use 1/2" plywood for sub-floor.  Also, contractor
    #3 will not build a cement block foundation when framing in the garage
    opening.  He also claims that his method of nailing the 2 x 4's to the
    concrete floor makes a more secure floor than the other method.  I
    don't know if this is a valid point or not.  Contractor #1 was going to
    use tongue in groove, I think, and not plywood.  I'll have to check on
    this again, and he was going to use a vapor barrier building the
    subfloor.  Neither contractor mentioned a vapor barrier for the wall
    along the foundation side.  The wall would be insulated with paper facing 
    toward the room side.
    
    My husband likes the lower price, but I like the method from contractor
    #1.  I like the cinder block foundation; I like his sub-floor
    construction method; I like the fact that the floor will be flush with
    the hallway.  I also wonder about making nail holes in the concrete
    floor, although contractor #3 says that there would be no risk of water
    seeping in through these holes (I don't trust this answer). 
    
    I think that there is more work involved with contractor #1's plan,
    and thus the higher quote.  But what do I know???  I do know how to sew
    but nothing about housing construction.  Contractor #3 said he would
    pull a permit, contract # 1 and #2 say 'not'.  This is really
    confusing.  What would you do?
    
    Also, one more question.  The existing 2 finished garage  walls
    are plastered, as is the ceiling.  Is this regular plaster, or do you
    think this material is different because it was a garage?  Does this
    have to be removed, or can we leave it?  If we can leave it but decide
    to replace it becuase we don't want the rough plaster look on the 2
    walls, what is the best way to do this - remove the wall board and
    replace with new wall board with skim coat of plaster?
    
    
    Thanks for everyone's input.  
    
    Eleanor