Conference 7.286::home_work

      Concrete, if properly done is much more durable than asphalt.
    It is impervious to oils and solvents (like gasoline) and it lasts
    almost forever. It can be colored, so if you don't like the black
    of asphalt it gives you another choice. It is also possible to do
    it yourself, especially if you have a small driveway. Though I would
    never call it an easy job. Concrete is also about 30-50% more expensive
    than asphalt.
      Asphalt is the least expensive of the two. With proper maintenance
    it should last ~25 years. It is black (always) and if you spring a
    leak in your gas tank, it will get a hole in it because gasoline
    dissolves asphalt very well. Also, if you have a motorcycle in the
    family, you have to be carefull about the sidestand sinking into
    the asphalt on a hot day.
      Make no mistake about it, neither is cheap, but if I had the
    money I'd go for the concrete.
    
    					Kenny

    Well,well Jo-Ann...
    
    	It's nice to see so many of us in the same situation. Asphalt
    is better but quite expensive compared to concrete. It also has
    major changes during summer to winter conditions.
    
    	I spent a while deciding myself and went with concrete. The
    cost is relatively cheaper, much thicker (heavy duty), and better
    in high summer heat conditions.
    
    	Maintenance wise...both can be plowed with ease...repaired
    easily except for major cracks...and concrete can be shaped for
    ease of water run-off.
    
    	My cost for a two car wide 74' long driveway, @ 8" thick, was
    not bad at $384 plus tax & permit. I did all my own work with the
    help of a few neighbor in approx. 4 hrs set-up & 1 1/4 hrs pouring
    time. Of course the concrete was ready mix off a truck.
    
    Well, the decision is yours and I'm sure you'll be pleased whichever
    way you decide.
    
    					Happy Pavements, gfc
    

    Can we get another opinion on the differences in cost and go with two
    out of three?
    
    -joet 

    re .2
    If concrete is that cheap, why are there so few concrete driveways?
    I had a 70 foot (30 feet double) 4" thick asphalt driveway put in
    last spring which cost my builder $1100! (I paid for the double
    extension, $225). Knowing my builder, and most others I'm sure,
    if they can put in a driveway that size for under 500 bucks, I think
    the choice would be obvious!
    
    Confused,
    John
    

>        I had a 70 foot (30 feet double) 4" thick asphalt driveway put in
>    last spring which cost my builder $1100.

    Seems to me that for concrete, that's over $1200 even before labor.
    I'd say asphault is much cheaper.

>    	My cost for a two car wide 74' long driveway, @ 8" thick, was
>    not bad at $384 plus tax & permit. 

Something seems fishy here.  Assuming your driveway is 15' wide, that's nearly 
30 yards of concrete.  Where can you buy concrete for $12 a yard delivered?

Paul

    If you live in New England... or anywhere else where the state uses
    salt on the roads in winter, you'll have problems preventing a concrete
    driveway from eroding.  Your car will pick-up the salt in frozen
    ice on the undercarrage, and as the temperature warms, drop the
    salt(y water) on your drive.
                 
    At my former residence, the previous owner had used salt on the
    concrete front steps....they were a flakey, cracking, eye sore.
                                                         
    Jim.
    
    

    RE .5
    The driveway was included in the price of the house, but was put
    down the following spring. My builder said it was costing him $1100.
    Since he was doing 42 of them, and the pavers were doing 4-5 a day,
    he may have been getting a better price than a single homeowner.

    re .7
    
    I believe if the concrete is PROPERLY sealed, the salt should wash
    off fairly easily.  Of course if you use salt deliberately to clean
    the driveway, you'd have a problem.  I plan to put in a concrete
    drive in front of the garage.  app 26 by 28'  I haven't calculated
    it but I believe the concrete will be more expensive.   I like the
    fact that the concrete is  far more durable, is not black (heat
    in summer) and I can do it myself.
    
    I also belive that salt is the reason why you don't see concrete
    driveways in New England.  With salt being used less these days
    and being conscious of it, I don't expect a problem.

    Concrete doesn't behave well with "frost heaves".   When those boulders
    start heading towards the surface, you concrete will crack.   You
    can get good surface preparation done, but it'll be far more expensive
    to do for concrete than asphalt.

    RE .2
    
    So, if we decided to do the preparation outselves, what kind of
    pain and anguish are we in for?  What's a good source for finding
    out "how-to"?

    As pointed out, the key to a long lasting concrete driveway is
    a good base and minimal use of salt.  The amount of work to
    prepare a good base depends on what type of soil you have to
    work with.  If it is firm, well-drained soil, a 2 inch base 
    should be enough.  If not, you may need 4 inches or more.
    
    Last summer, I installed a 60' x 10' driveway made of 6 10 x 10
    squares.  I had some landscaping to do, so I rented a small
    tractor with a york rake to grade the yard and driveway.  I
    graded the driveway until I got down to firm soil (removed about
    2 inches of rocks, weeds, etc. I then put down a 4 inch base of
    pea stone and poured 5 inch thick slabs.  The driveway survived
    this winter with no problems.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    	The price depends on how much you buy.  We'll be putting in
    a small, one car drive this spring and only need 6 yards of concrete.
    We can get the concrete delivered for $54/yd.    We'll be doing
    all the prep work ourselves, and the truck will just come and pour.
    We couldn't find anyone to do asphalt without a minimum of around
    $1000.
                                                   
    	Conni

    It really did cost $384. and the paperwork. The thing I neglected
    to tell all you, was that I filled all except the top three inches
    with rock/stones from a sand pit not far from the back yard. I guess
    you could add the cost of gas for the pickup. 
    
    There...now figure how many yard it takes. 
    
    

    This is a bit of a twist on this note, but in the interest of keeping
    similar notes lumped together, here goes.
    
    I have a summer cottage that has a fairly steep driveway that my
    neighbor loves to dig trenches in with his overpowered undertraction
    cars.  Also we get a fair amount of water errosion over time.
    
    to make a long story short, I remember reading in Popular Science
    or some such place some number of years ago about some enterprising
    person who had discovered that Portland Cement mixed with dirt (!)
    would make a fairly solid base.  I have been thinking seriously
    of not mixing cement with dirt, but some good boney gravel and then
    watering it down to make a "firmer" surface.
    
    Some things to consider are that this is a summer only residence,
    so no salt in the winter.  It gets only mild usage.  I would be
    surprised if a car drives up it more than 100 times a year.
    
    The question(s) are:  does anyone else remember this article, and
    if so, can they add to my meager reccolection of how this was done?
    What does the general readership think of the idea in general? 
    What I'm proposing to do is to mix Portland Cement and standard
    bank gravel and wet it down to harden.  It will be crowned slightly
    and flattened as much as possible.  Rolled, perhaps with a heavy
    lawn type roller, and wattered over several days to set.
    
    Comments?
    
    Stew
    

    I have no answer, only another partial reference.  I remember an article
    in Yankee magazine describing a dirt/cement driveway (even tennis court).
    It was sometime in my college days, so it was 1970-1974.  Anyone with
    Yankee's that far back?

RE: portland cement and gravel

Portland cement has no strength of its own.  That is why concrete is made
up of a mixture of different sized stones, sand, etc (AKA aggregate).  If
your base material (dirt, sand and gravel, etc) is essentially strong by
itself, the the cement will glue it together and keep it from eroding, etc.
Gravel by itself has lots of air space, and the cement will not hold it 
together.  I think you would end up with a mess unless your gravel was mixed
with something to fill in the voids.

    The gravel I was refering to is bank gravel, or a combination of
    sand and stones etc.  Basicly, it would be the same tyoe of stuff
    that you mix with portland cement to make concrete, but it would
    not necessarily be "clean".
    
    

    Re: .17
    
    Just for clarity, concrete has a LOT of compressive strength, but
    very little tensile strength.  (You can pile tons of weight on a
    concrete footing, but a chain made from concrete would break very
    easily.)

    	I want to pave an area 25' X 25' for my 2 large dogs. I was
    thinking about cement but the black top may be better. I could
    paint the black top white in all but one section so the dogs won't
    burn their feet in the summer but would still be able to lay on the
    warm black section in the winter.
    	Any ideas on blacktop vs cement. I think the cost of the blacktop
    would be less expensive since it doesn't have to be thick enough
    to hold a car. Just thick enough and with a good crushed stone base
    so it won't break up in the freezing and thawing of our New England
    winters.
    

    Why pave it at all?  Seems to me the dogs would be happier with dirt.
    Strictly a personal opinion, but I think a 25'x25' area for "2 large
    dogs" is WAY too small to begin with, but if that's all you've got
    I'd encourage you to make it as pleasant for the dogs as possible
    by leaving it unpaved.

    I remember reading about using Portland Cement and dirt in a farm
    magazine back in the "fifties". The farmers were using it to pave
    the farm driveways. The technique described was to spread so much
    (can remember quantities) cement per square foot of area and rake
    it to make a uniform mixture, smooth it out, then use a fine spray
    to wet. The wetting process was repeated for several days. The
    report went on to say that the drives would last at least 3 years.
    I have thought of building a tennis court this way. The big difference
    that I would make is to use a deep base of good quality sand. This
    would allow excellent drainage and reduce frost heaves.  

    
    My wife and I just finished building a garage and want to have a
    driveway installed. The question we have is why use ashfault
    (sp) instead of cement. 
    
    We recently moving here from Michigan. All we ever used before 
    was cement. It lasted 10-15 years without any maintenance. The 
    weather ranged from the high 90's to -10.
    
    Thanks
    Ken

    Purely local custom, I expect.  I'm sure you could get a cement
    contractor to put in a concrete driveway if you wanted one.
    
    Concrete does have one problem though; road salt is not good
    for it at all.  The extent of the effects depends in part on
    the quality of the concrete, but over time the salt tends to
    make the surface pit and flake off.  Concrete also cracks from
    frost; you can get around this with proper drainage under the
    driveway (biggest thing), use of expansion joints, and use of
    reinforcing mesh.
    
    Blacktop can also crack from frost heaves, but it's a little more
    forgiving in that regard, and salt doesn't seem to bother it.
    
    Both materials can make a good driveway; get what you want.  Check
    prices for both and decide.

    There is one other BIG factor as far as I am concerned,  The price. 
    You will find the cost of installing a concrete driveway to be FAR FAR
    than a blacktop one.  Cement would be nice, but I have a large driveway
    and flat couldn't afford concrete.  The difference was something like
    $1500 for the blacktop and $4000 for concrete.

    
    Concrete may not stand up very well to road salt, but asphalt dosn't
    hold up to well to gas/petrolium. With concrete you can seal it to help
    it with road salt. There's not much you can do with the asphalt to help
    it with gasoline. As for the cost, asphalt is much cheaper. And it's
    easier to put down on a hill.
    
    Mike

One other advantage/disadvantage of blacktop is it absorbs solar radiation and
gets hot (well, warm in the winter).  I have a driveway with a big hill so I
have to keep it bare in the winter.  Thus, I want something black.

Stan

    Asphalt requires recoating every 3 years or so.  Oil and gasoline drips
    from a car leak will ruin the surface.  Being soft/piable, if you
    park regularly in the drive way, minor depressions will develop where
    water will collect/puddle.  Bicycle kickstands also do a number on
    asphalt.  Also the asphalt will dent quite easily in the summer heat/sun 
    if you are not careful (like pushing a big snow thrower with chains across 
    it).  Asphalt is cheaper than cement to lay down and is easier to repair 
    and resurface/coat to keep the surface looking good/uniform.
    
    Ed

Actually, a well-installed asphalt driveway doesn't require recoating.  My
driveway is some 26 years old and has never been sealed - it only has some
minor cracks where a tree root lifted it, and is otherwise fine.  I have
patched it where oil damaged one spot.

There's a camp of thought which says that driveway sealing is bad, as it
makes it slippery.  But I agree that a poorly installed asphalt driveway
will need resealing to seal up the cracks caused by heaving.

				Steve

    I use to install asphalt driveways. Some of the driveways we installed
    have been there for over 30 years with little or no repair done to them
    during the time. The key difference is the low cost of asphalt over 
    concrete. A good grade of drive way sealer will keep most minor petro
    products from eating away the drive way. There is a wide range of 
    methods for instaltions. Normally, you get what you pay for. However,
    beware of the "good deal", they won't withstand the test of time.
    

    
        I agree with .-1, I too used to and still do (please Mr. Moderator
      do not kill my reply) install asphalt driveways. A well done driveway
      will not form depressions where you park or warp in the sun. Yes,
      kick stands on bike will do a job on it, but then even the highest
      quality windows don't hold up well to speeding baseballs. The big
      difference is price, concrete costs 2 to 3 times more. Sealing a
      well done driveway is basically from gas and oil, but mostly for
      dressing up the yard. A newly sealed driveway just looks good.
    
                                                 Randy
    

I didn't spend all last weekend busting my hump just to make the driveway 'look
good'. Unfortunately my driveway must have been a 'contractor special' (I am the
second owner) and has heaves and cracks in it. Filling the cracks and sealing
may give it some extra life.

I agree with the CW that sealing is not necessary for a well constructed 
driveway, but it can help one that is in distress.

CdH

    I'm also in the process of trying to extend the life of my 4.5 year old
    driveway through the use of crack filler and sealer.  
    
    Coincidentally to this note, just this morning, I came across a letter 
    that I wrote to the builder of my house shortly after moving in
    containing a list of things needed to be fixed.  At the very end of the
    letter, I wrote a paragraph about the driveway...
    
    	After only 1 week of normal use, I'm noticing some soft spots
    	in the asphalt, especially in the "wing" [additional width so
    	that both my cars could be parked side-by-side].  I watched
    	the contractors from start to finish and I don't feel they 
    	prepared the base well.  Also, I feel they were very sparing 
    	in the amount of asphalt that was used.  Aesthetically, the 
    	driveway looks very good.  Functionally, I feel it's adequate
    	for only a very short term.
    
    Of course, the builder tried to reassure me that it'll last forever
    while implying that there's no way he's going to do anything about it. 
    And, of course, it's too late to do anything about it, especially since
    he's bankrupt, out of business, and soon to be out-of-town (moving to
    Florida, the current construction hotbed, to give his "business"
    another try).  Meanwhile, I'm doing everything possible to keep my
    driveway from self-destruction...
    
    John

    In the "User's Manual" I got with my new asphalt driveway last year, it
    stated that asphalt is porous and therefore should be sealed about six
    months after installation.   Sealing it seals the surface (oh gosh!
    REALLY?!) :-) supposedly so that water will not penetrate and cause
    damage.

    My original driveway was about 14 years old before I had it widened and
    other than gasoline spills which ate holes in it that I had patched, it
    was in good condition and was never sealed. Having been told by two
    different people (one - the paver DLB Paving and the other my neighbor
    who has a relative that does paving) that it should be sealed, it's
    high on the list of things to do before it gets too cold.
    
    -Bob

    
        REF: Last 2
    
            Sorry, all the sealing jobs I've done were for money so I 
        never considered it "busting my hump" ;-) If you do get or have
        your driveway sealed use the best quality you can, you'll only
        have to seal it half (once every 4 years rather than 2)as often.
        DO NOT..ABSOLUTELY...DO NOT have it sprayed on! To do this requires
        thinning done the sealer to apply it and a year later its gone.
    
                                                  Randy

    I would think that 1000 lbs (4 wheels supporting a 4000 lb car with
    50/50 weight distribution) over a 20-25 sq inch spot would cause 
    an asphalt surface to deform 1/2 inches over a 2 -3 year period, no
    matter how well the base is layed.  I think the driveway job that
    I have was done properly, 6 inches of stone as a base, 4-5 inches
    of rough asphalt with a 1.5 to 2 inch smooth top coat.  The top coat
    gets very soft in the summer sun.  When you park a full size car
    in the same spot every day for a year, the asphalt will sag slightly
    (it's only noticeable when water collects in a small puddle).
    
    I'm convinced in using a sealer as it makes the driveway look neater,
    it covers up stains that collect over the years.  The drive way
    is slippery after a snow storm but the sun usually melts away the
    small amount of snow left from shovelling.  I have a small level driveway 
    so a little salt and sand takes care of any slipperiness.  What is the 
    best sealer to use.  Is there something that is better that the airport
    grade sealer at Spag's or Somerville Lumber against oil and gasoline
    drips?
                 
    Ed 
    

re .14:

Most people don't park in the exact same spot all the time.  If you're
concerned about the weight of the car, you can make a point of parking
in a slightly different spot each day.  If you're truly anal retentive,
you could have a different spot for each day of the week, or each day
of the month.

    >> I would think that 1000 lbs (4 wheels supporting a 4000 lb car with
    >> 50/50 weight distribution) over a 20-25 sq inch spot would cause 
    
    A 4000 lb car?  Don't you mean a "fully loaded with bricks" pickup
    truck.  I have a station wagon and it only weighs about 2000 lbs!
    (which by your example would be 500 lbs per wheel not 1000)
    
    Steve..................................... 

I used to own a sentra wagon.  It weighed 2000lb. My wife now has a colony
park wagon. It weighs 4000lb.

    FWIW, my asphalt driveway in NH is over 25 years old, never been
    re-coated/re-sealed and looks just fine thank you.  I wipe up oil and
    gas spills, other than that, it just gets swept when I feel like it and
    plowed when it snows.
    
    I grew up in a house in Mass. where we had a concrete driveway.  Each
    spring another piece of the drive chipped away.  Concrete driveways are
    cracked by frost heaves due to frequent freezing and thawing and their
    surface is sensitive to road salt.  Besides, how do you put in a steep
    sloping concerte driveway?
    
    Now then, if someone could come up with an epoxy coating that is not
    slippery....... 
    
    Dave

RE: Note 4365.16 + 17 

I've got a truck that ways in at over 6K lbs, empty of people or stuff in the 
bed.  It's a 1-ton 4x4 crew cab....

2000 is VERY light for a car - that's sub-subcompacts.  There's only a handful 
of cars sold that weigh in under 2000 - things like Geos.  Even your small 
station wagon probably weighed well over 2000.  I happen to have a car magazine 
sitting at my desk, and a Mazda Protege (A Corolla or Escort sized car) weighs
2550.  An Acura legend or a Corvette are 3500 lbs, a Jaguar XJS or an Isuzu 
Rodeo tip the scales at about 4000, and a Ford F350 XLT pickup is over 5800.

Paul  

In light of comparing cement vs. blacktop, what about a driveway made of
cement pavers?  When I lived in Germany, interlocking pavers were fairly
commonly used for sloping driveways.  Coming from southern California,
I had never seen them before.  They solve the major problems of using
concrete -- they can be used on slopes, they don't crack in frost heaves,
and if a tree root dislocates some, it can be easily fixed.  I expect they
get eaten up by road salt like regular concrete.  But what about cost?
Does anyone know roughly how they compare to concrete and to asphalt,
if you pay for installation or if you DIY?  At a guess, paid installation
might be more expensive than concrete (assuming concrete can be used at all)
but DIY might even be less expensive than asphalt.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I've seen a brick driveway in either Brookline or Brighton, MA.  It's short,
narrow, curved, and on a slope.  It looks new, so I have no idea how it'll
hold up.  A neighbor of mine has no driveway at all.  Their garage sits
behind a lawn.  Judging from the condition of the lawn, they don't keep
a car in the garage (more honest than those of us who claim that one day
we'll clean up the garage and use it for the car).

    A cement paver costs about 45 cents each.  Their dimensions are
    anywhere from 3-4" wide by 7-8" long.  It would make a nice driveway
    especially since you can build patterns into it.  It would probably
    be very expensive though and the preparation would have to be pretty
    extensive (much more than your typical walkway).
    
    -al

A cement paver is 8" wide, 16" long and 4" deep. It costs anywhere from
70 to 90 cents. A patio paver is same WxL but 2" deep. Don't use these
thinner ones for a driveway - they'll break.

Mickey.

    
    Our project was to widen and "dress-up" the asphalt driveway at our
    75 year old home.
    
    We placed granite pavers end-to-end along each side of the drive-way,
    three rows to a side.
    
    The result was spectacular - the contrast of the granite to a freshly
    sealed blacktop is striking.  The extra width gives us a easy access
    for two cars.  And plantings of wooley thyme between the pavers make
    a nice transition from the driveway to the lawn and gardens.
    
    Granite pavers are $ .19/lb; a ton will cover 45 - 50 square feet.

Note .9 cites an asphalt job at $1.85 per square foot, including site prep.

Note .24 cites rectangular pavers as costing about $1 per square foot.  I 
believe that the fancier shapes, e.g. interlocking, cost a bit more.  

I once heard an estimate for the cost of having pavers installed.  It was
either $3 or $5 per square foot.  Maybe I can find that in my notes...

Anyway, I'd guess that if you can spreak gravel and sand and then place 
the pavers yourself, DIY pavers will come in cheaper than paying someone 
to do asphalt (for which DIY isn't an alternative).  Having someone install
pavers doesn't sound like it's much, if any, less expensive than having
someone pour a cement driveway.  Or at least that's what these numbers
look like.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Site prep for a paver driveway is probably simpler than for concrete
or asphalt, as the consequences of frost heaves are less.  Naturally, it
is greater than for a patio or brick walkway.

re:                      <<< NOTE 4365.25 BY MPGS::GLOWACZ >>>
                    -< BLACKTOP EDGED WITH GRANITE PAVERS >-

<       GRANITE PAVERS ARE $ .19/LB; A TON WILL COVER 45 - 50 SQUARE FEET.

    lessee... at .19/lb times 2000 pounds per ton: $380 per ton.
    
    
    now... if a ton covers 50 square feet:  $3880/50 = $7.60 per square
    foot!  pretty steep, if you ask me!
    
    
    t.

Re:.26

Larry,

I remember (and so does my back) what it took to install about 60' of 52" wide
brick walk.  My driveway is 12' x 240' (plus extra wide by the door)!  I think
blacktop looks just fine, thank you!  DIY!  No thanks!

By the way, how do pavers stand up to normal New England winters, plowing, etc.?
Any personal experience?  If I get a new house, you never know, I might want
to go with the pavers.  (fool that I am)

Stan

    When they laid a courtyard of pavers at the college I was attending
    at the time, lo these many years ago, they paved the courtyard first,
    then spread thin tar over it and laid the pavers in it as they
    went.  After the pavers were all down, they brushed another layer
    of thin tar over the whole thing to "grout" the cracks between the
    pavers.  I don't see any point in doing that for a home driveway
    though, unless you want the look of pavers and a very durable
    driveway.
    
    A few years ago I saw an idea in Fine Gardening magazine (I think)
    that talked about putting down pavers spaced some distance apart on 
    a solid bed of gravel, then filling the intervening spaces with dirt
    and planting grass.  When the grass filled in and after a few years
    crept over the pavers, you had what looked pretty much like lawn
    but which was solid enough to drive on.  I'm a little hazy on the
    details here...knowing Fine Gardening magazine, they probably planted
    some special creeping Ubangi groundcover or something between the
    pavers, not grass, but I think I'd use grass!  I don't see how you'd
    be able to plow something like that though.

re .27:  Sure, GRANITE pavers are expensive.  The other notes on pavers
all talk about CONCRETE pavers.  

re .29:  Grouting pavers with tar?  It sounds disgusting!  All of the
instructions I've ever read say to sweep fine SAND over them to fill in
the spaces.  And I don't know why they were set in tar.  The base prep 
instructions for pavers are fairly similar to that for cement or
concrete driveways -- base of gravel (that's bank gravel, not crushed
stone), sand on top of that, pavers on top of that.  Worse, setting them
in tar defeats three important advantages of pavers -- they let water soak
through, they rise and fall without damage as the ground freezes and thaws,
and you can pull them out and reset them if some do get heaved by tree
roots or an unusual frost.

I have never laid pavers.  I'm just considering it, which is why I'm
pushing to get any comparison data anyone has.  Contemplation of damage
and mistakes various contractors (especially excavation contractors)
have committed makes me hesistate to pay somebody else to do things that
I can do myself.  I might end up going for asphalt anyway, but I'd like
to understand the cost tradeoffs first.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    These I'm talking about were black asphalt pavers, not concrete.
    Seems as though they also came in, after grouting everything with
    tar, and used a machine to take the tar off the surface of the
    pavers and leave some traces of the rock aggregate in the asphalt
    showing through...but this was 20+ years ago, so my memory is
    a bit hazy about the details.

    re: .29
    
    I travel quite a bit and I see what I describe as "honeycomb" pavers
    with grass growing in between.  These pavers come in all kinds of
    designs, with hexagon being the most typical.  It seems like a good
    idea as long as you mow your walk or driveway regularly ;^}
    
    Seriously, I like the affect and I would suspect that the design would
    add strenght while reducing weight, thereby reducing breakage and
    consequently maintenance while reducing weight and consequently 
    backache of DYI installation. I have no idea about the cost of these
    things.  If they are common and cheap in Europe, that means that
    they are probably "designer" and unreasonably expensive over here.
    
    On another note, I've also seen a similar concept with embankments
    where the "embankment pavers" or whatever you call them are actually
    interlocking cement planters about a foot or so long.  They have what
    I would call an "open back" to the actual embankment.  It solves the
    problem of water pressure pushing or bowing a wall and you can plant your
    favorite weed to decorate the wall.
    
    Craig

>    A few years ago I saw an idea in Fine Gardening magazine (I think)
>    that talked about putting down pavers spaced some distance apart on 
>    a solid bed of gravel, then filling the intervening spaces with dirt
>    and planting grass.  When the grass filled in and after a few years

I saw this same article and was similarly impressed. I don't remember what
the grass was but your guess is close. It looks really nice but I don't think
it would be too practical in an area that gets a lot of rain and snow.

Re plowing pavers - don't. You'll wind up digging them up or knocking the
corners off of them if you use anything with a little uumpfh to it.

You can get a plastic underlayment thingie (nice term, eh?) for putting
down pavers. It's a moulded sheet designed to lay on the smoothed dirt.
It has guides to hold and space the pavers and it acts as a plant barrier.
You lay the pavers on top and fill the cracks with sand. You don't need
rocks or sand as a base.

You can get pavers in assorted colors and finally, a really nice feature,
you can replace single "stones" and re-set parts of the job without any
troubles.

Mickey.

    
          I have seen several driveways (Amherst and Bedford N.H.) done
       with pavers. First the driveway was dug out and a layer of processed
       "bank" (mixture of sand, gravel and clay) was laid and rolled. Then
       a portion of a motar mixture was troweled out and the pavers set 
       into it. Lastly a thin coating of motar was grouted into the small
       cracks left.
          The biggest problem besides cost is snow removal. Once you catch
       a couple at the begining of the winter you will rip out more through
       out the season. They not only make the neatest sound when you suck
       one up with your new Sears snowblower, they fly good too!
    
                                             Randy 

re .34:  Yikes!  I wasn't planning on having anybody snowplow my
driveway (contemplating the damage done to my gravel driveway and 
surrounding landscaping the one time I had it plowed), but to have
a hand-operated snow blower pick them up is disturbing.

On the other hand, pavers I've seen advertised for driveway use are
interlocking (with concave angles), rather than hexagons or rectangles.
I'd think it would be a lot harder to tear those up.  The one I recall
from Germany (and it is available in this country) was made up of four
hexagons -- it looks sort of like a 3 bladed fan.  They interlock
like anything -- I sure don't know how a snowblower could pick one up.

About installation -- I've heard it recommended that one place a
"geotextile" (nifty term!) under the pavers to stop weed growth,
unless one wants grass between them.  It's sort of a ground version
of Tyvek/Typar -- lets water through but not roots.  I've seen the
stuff at $14 for 50' x 3' on sale at Spags.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

  Re:                      <<< Note 4365.14 by SOLVIT::YEE >>>

  >    I would think that 1000 lbs (4 wheels supporting a 4000 lb car with
  >    50/50 weight distribution) over a 20-25 sq inch spot would cause 
  >    an asphalt surface to deform 1/2 inches over a 2 -3 year period, no
  >    matter how well the base is layed.  I think the driveway job that
  >    I have was done properly, 6 inches of stone as a base, 4-5 inches
  >    of rough asphalt with a 1.5 to 2 inch smooth top coat.  The top coat
  >    gets very soft in the summer sun.  When you park a full size car
  >    in the same spot every day for a year, the asphalt will sag slightly
  >    (it's only noticeable when water collects in a small puddle).
    
  Ed,
  
  This driveway was not just done "properly" -- it sounds like it was
  done to US Interstate highway specifications (slight exaggeration)!

  My driveway got 6 inches of gravel ("bank run," which is sand plus
  rocks in assorted sizes) and 2� inches of base coat asphalt.  I passed
  on a 1-inch asphalt top coat.  The surface is four years old and still 
  appears perfect and indestructable.

  Top coat asphalt is just not as tough as the base coat.  Obviously,
  you aren't going to remove it at this point, but I don't think sealing
  the driveway will change anything.  The only combination that will 
  even scuff my driveway is: 1) hot, sunny day, 2) large US-built 
  vehicle, and 3) driver who believes that the purpose of power steering
  is to enable you to turn the wheels while the car is stopped dead.
  
  Perhaps topcoat asphalt looks a little better than basecoat asphalt
  but in my opinion, the relative beauty of these two surfaces could 
  matter only to another driveway.

  JP

        I recently had a driveway done in asphalt, and a sidewalk in
        concrete pavers. The asphalt driveway cost was $0.60/ft� for a
        3000 ft� driveway. The brick walk was around $10.00/ft� for just
        over 100 ft�. The paver price would come down quite a bit for a
        larger area, but would still be an order of magnitude more
        expensive than asphalt.

    QUESTION:  What is the mixed volume of a bag of ready mix concrete?

If I remember right, a 50 lb. bag of concrete mix makes .6 cubic feet of 
concrete.

Any other guesses?
Stan

re last two:  you're both right.  50 lbs = .5 cubic ft.
                                  80 lbs = .8 cubic ft.

80 is the more common size, ie. spags, grossmans.

i think,
craig

    Oh joy! Oh joy! Oh joy!
    
    QUESTION 2:  Can I increase the volume by adding sand or gravel, etc?

    
    re .42
    
    Yes you can increase the volume, but then you loose the good ratio mix
    	1 part cement
    	2 part sand
    	3 part gravel
    
    These ratios will vary depending upon your application.
    
    Mike

you can add stone or gravel (aggregate) to add volume and strength.  i'm not 
sure how to assure the latter.  but i think a rule of thumb is to not use 
aggregate larger than 1/4 the thickness of your application.  i guess if you 
added 100 times more gravel than the mix you started with it would be not be 
too strong.  there must be some rules on how much.

you can buy gravel mix but cement is so cheap or gravel is so expensive i 
think it cost exactly the same.

-craig

    I would read a book on the type of concrete that you want, and then
    mix the ingredients to the recommended formula.  The materials are 
    really cheap, and adding gravel will make the concrete react
    differently than it was designed to.  For footings/foundations,
    the standard mix in 1-2-3....0ne part cement, two parts sand, and
    three parts gravel, by volume.
    
    Marc H.

    I have two recent estimates from Paving contractors and am trying to
    compare the two as they vary in more ways than just price.
    
    EST 1:   tear up old driveway, 8" crushed stone, 1 1/2" rough coat, 1
             1/2" top coat.
    
    EST 2:   tear up old driveway, 3" crushed stone, 2 1/2" single finished
             coat.
    
    The big differences being the amount of crushed stone and the actual
    paving technique, two 1 1/2" layers vs one 2 1/2" layer.
    
    Q1.
    Anyone care to comment on the merits of 2 passes vs 1 pass?  (The
    single pass contractor alluded to the possibility of water getting
    between the coats if done in 2 passes.  Also stating that streets are
    done in a single pass.)
    
    Q2.  
    Also any thoughts on whether 3" of crushed stone appears too little or
    8" crushed stone appears too much or ???  (This is in Merrimack NH.)
    
    Lastly, although the 8" two pass job seems the 'better' job on first
    view, the price difference is 50% greater with the single pass estimate
    at $2200 and the two-pass estaimate at $3300 and change.
    
    Comments welcome.
    
    _Stan
     

    Stan,
    
    There are several things to consider for driveways.  The most
    important is the prep work.  The deeper the crushed stone
    goes, the better the driveway will avoid things like
    frost heaves, etc.  When we had our driveway done (Merrimack) it
    only had about 3" of base gravel/stone, and I'm experiencing
    a bit of heaving in spots (not terrible, but noticible).
    From that point, I'd want a good base.
    
    As for the actual coating layer(s), it really depends on the material
    they're using.  If they've got a good mixed batch of blacktop
    with the stone mixed, you'll have a good base and topcoat all in
    one.  If the mix is really rocky, it's better as a base only.  If
    it's almost void of stones, then it's better as a top coat.  Again,
    our driveway was done with a single 2.5" coat, but it was softer
    than I would have liked, and that probably promotes the heaving
    I mentioned above.  Also, the softer coating is a pain with lawn
    chairs, etc.
    
    If I were to do it again from scratch, I'd opt for better prep work
    and insist on more of a base-coat-mix of coating but do it in a
    single layer.  Since I seal the driveway anyway, a bit rockier
    mix won't really show much.  This would mean a solid base and a firmer
    surface.
    
    andy
    
    ps - from what I've seen, most roads are made with at least 2 coatings
    of asphalt - the bottom one rockier and the top one less so.  The
    roads I've seen done with a single coat seem to really break apart
    quickly....

Roads are never built with only 1 coat of asphalt.   (Unless the contractor
made a deal with the inspector!!)

The first coat (base) is typically a coarser agregate, while the top (wearing) 
coat is finer and thinner.  


Mark

For what it's worth, when I bought my house, with a gravel driveway, I asked the
inspector about getting the driveway paved.  He said not to even consider a one
coat driveway.  His claim was that the one coat is done for cheapness, and is 
not durable, and would need replacement/repair much sooner than a two coat.  By
the way, I live in Lunenburg.  Of course, that was 8 years ago, and to date all
I've ever done is consider, and continue to drive and curse at the gravel.

    An advantage to 2 coats might be to complete the first coat and
    wait a year for any settling to occur then have him return and
    put on the finished surface. You could contract the price now and give
    yourself time to come up with the additonal revenue. I would not settle
    for anything less than a 6in. base. When you spend the kind of money
    they want these days you'll be sick to your stomach when you see the
    thing heave. The guy who did mine went down over a foot and in some
    places even deeper. He compacted with a heavy machine too.
    
    dave

    The last reply touched on something that I'm considering, and would
    also like opinions on.  My 5 year old driveway is the typical cheap one
    coat for the new house driveway.  Each winter it gets worse- very bumpy
    and lots of cracks.  Right now, it's at a point where it should get
    replaced, but I'm wondering if a thin (about 1.5") topcoat could
    salvage it for maybe another 5 years.  I'm sure that it'll still heave
    in the winter, but my goal is to have a fairly smooth, crackless
    driveway (again).  Sounds ok, or no?
    
    Thanks,
    John
    

    
    	Re: .51
    
    	I'm faced with the same problem.  I think the problem with just
    putting on a layer of topcoat is that if the driveway is heaving in the
    winter, that topcoat will get cracked pretty quickly.
    
    							-craig

    re: topcoat cracking on an already-heaving driveway...
    
    That's what I'm afraid of, but given a fair price, I'd be willing to
    take the chance that the cracking will be minimal, at least much less
    than the bottom cheap coat, I hope...
    
    Oh well, at least there's consolation in that my kids are gaining
    tremendous ball control bouncing a basketball on the existing bumpy
    surface, and who knows, it can prove to be the ideal training that
    someday propels them into one of those mega-buck NBA contracts, and I
    can have a brand new driveway every spring!  :-)
    
    John
    

    To what do you guys (.-2, .-3) attribute your cracking?  Is it the
    single coat, or is it the site preparation in general?  I've talked
    with three pavement contractors recently, one is prepared to just
    grade and level and apply the 2" rough coat, leaving the finish coat
    for 2-3 years down the road.  The other insists on putting down
    another 3-4" of hard pack over the current 6" of gravel before
    putting on both coats, and the last thinks that 2" of gravel before
    the two pavement coats will do.  Does anybody have any suggestions 
    as to how to tell who is preaching overkill, and who is cutting
    corners?  (Note, the guy who wants to put 3-4" of hardpack down is
    neglecting the fact that I would then be driving DOWN into my
    garage!)

    Ken

    
    	Re: .54
    
    	I really don't know.  We didn't own the house when the driveway was
    put in, so I can't vouch for the quality or thickness of the material
    used.  Sorry.
    
    								-craig

    RE:- Funny this should come up, as I've been thinking about a top coat
    on my already existing, but cracking driveway. It's the original at
    30 years. I would say the area is now well compacted and no longer
    settling. 
    
    My thoughts would be to seal any cracks, spray a bonding solution 
    to the whole surface and pave away. 
    
    Any ideas on the cost of such, compared to tearing the existing drive
    up and starting from scratch?
    
    Dave'
     

Well, with mud season starting to ebb and the kids now being old enough to want
to ride bikes, it's time to do something about the driveway.

Most of the quotes in this string are > 1 year old. Does anyone out there have
current, valid quotes for the following? 

How much per sqare foot for asphalt?

How much per sqare foot for concrete?

It would help if those responding had current data/quotes rather than
estimates. If you read this sting, the guesstimates fluctuate all over.

I realize that the associated base prep can change these prices
considerably depending on how well or badly this is done. If you could
also post what the price includes, it would be greatly appreciated.

						Thanks,

							Mark

    I'm looking for companies that use recycled asphalt.  I would like to
    consider it as a lower-cost alternative for a long common driveway.
    
    Chris

    re:80
    
    Most asphalt companies re-mix it back in with fresh material but RT
    Curtis located in  Barre, MA   (508)355-2952 will resell it by the yard 
    dry. I think it's available in course and fine grades. My town has used it
    in the past on dirt roads with limited success.
    
    They spread a coarse layer and then cover with a fine layer. After it's
    packed by traffic and the sun warms it, it does bind pretty good. Sloped 
    areas suffer from washout erosion during heavy rain and spring runoff.
    
    A better solution would be a macadam driveway see note 5481.26  or
    better yet try a notes file search on the AltaVista Web site.
    
    http://altavista.notes.lkg.dec.com:8000/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&fmt=.&q=macadam
    
    
    regards,
    
    /Jim

    I will most likely go with macadam for my "personal" driveway, but at
    over 1800', the common driveway is a bit too long for macadam (I
    think?).  
    
    Am I missing something?
    
    Chris

    re: .82
    
    Why too long?  The streets in the subdivision where I grew up
    were all macadam.

    Well, now that you mention it, I guess it's just the "oil and stone"
    stuff, which should be cheaper than asphalt.
    
    Any guesses on what % of asphalt the $$ is for macadam?
    
    Chris

...this was banned some years back in MA, and is now only legal for
the governments to use.  It was linked to asthma, particularly in
 children. In macadam the oil component is much less volatile.