Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    	An easy solution for the top and bottom plates for your curved wall
                                                         
    
    		Buy your lumber at Grossmans.  They specialize in
    	curved lumber stock!   :^)

Actually, the top and bottom plates are easy.  Just get a piece of 2x12, scribe 
your curved plate on it, and cut it out with a jigsaw.  If the wall is long or 
sharply curved, you may have to make the plates in several sections, but that's 
no problem.  The hard part is putting the sheetrock on.  To make the curve, you 
need to use the thinnest sheetrock you can find, and put it on in two layers.
I know that 3/8" is commonly available, and I think that 1/4" is available, 
although that might be a special order.  Find out before you build the wall, 
because if the curved section is going to merge into a flat section, where 
you'll be using 1/2", if 3/8" is the thinnest you can find you'll have to set 
the curved section back 1/4" so that the two surfaces line up.

To put it up, you'll need two people.  Dampen both sides of the sheet slightly, 
and let it sit a few minutes before putting it in place.  Start at one side, 
where the sheets to be curved can butt up against a solid surface.  Butt the 
sheet up against it, and then have one person put a 2x4 against the other edge 
and push on the sheet to bow it into place, while the second person nails it.  
When you put on the second layer, stagger the joints from the first layer, to 
ensure a smooth surface.
Good Luck!

Paul
Paul

Actually, the hardest part is going to be plastering it, since you can't make a 
sweep down the vertical seams, and will have to make repeated passes across it.

Paul

Thanks, sounds fairly doable.  What's the purpose of the double sheets, 
though?

The double sheets are used for two reasons.  First, a single sheet is fairly 
flimsy in those thicknesses.  Second, I think that one sheet tends to show the 
angles at each stud, whereas the second sheet smooths the curve out more.  At 
least that's the theory.  One sheet may very well be fine.  But unless your 
curved wall is very large, it's very little more work and money to put up the 
second sheet, and I'd go ahead and do it to ensure that the wall looks good.

Paul

    
    RE .2  Why seam it in different places.  Wouldn't it be more logical
    to keep the seams at the same spot, thus minimizing the joints,
    or are you thinking of putting two seams very close together, so
    you can feather a very wide seam with joint compound?
    
    Just a question.
    
    /Dave

There are two layers.  The second layer goes completely over the first, so no 
seams of the first layer are visible, or need to be plastered.  It's inevitable
that where two pieces of sheetrock meet on the curve, they are not going to 
follow the curve as well at that stud as on a stud in the middle of a sheet.  
By staggering the joints between layers, you insure that each stud has at most
one joint, making for a smoother wall.  Another reason for using two sheets!

Paul

    How wet is wet?  I thought wet sheetrock should never be used again.
    
    -al

Wet is damp, just enough to let the paper stretch.  I think some people only 
wet the back side, since that is the side that has to stretch.  You don't want 
to soak the core, that's what wrecks it.  Just mist it with an old windex 
bottle or something.

Paul

    A minor addition to the framing- I would use two thicknesses of
    3/4 plywood to cut the curved plate from- 2x12 isnt wide e{ough
    to get any reasonable curved section from- and each joint is a
    potential hard spot in the final bend.
    
    Ron

    
    How about applying the wallboard horizontally, so that the joint
    follows the curve? You may be able to get long enough wallboard so
    that you only have one horizontal joint, which would be much easier
    to mud and would create a more evem curve.
    
    (Never tried this before, but it would be my first approach.)

    Actually, the professional way to apply the wallboard is horizontally.
    That way you can go with 12 foot lengths and have fewer seams to
    deal with.
    
    Rich

     Thanks for all the tips.  Hopefully I'll be getting to it sometime
     in the next few weeks, and I'll let you all know how it turns out.

     -gary

    "This Old House" had an example of building a curved wall.  What they did
    was to use blueboard and soak it first.  It curved very easily around
    the wall.  I remember Norm saying that you must use blueboard and
    really soak it well. 
    
    The episode was one of the first "This Old House" series.  It was
    when they remodeled the Bigelow mansion into 5 condominiums.
    
    Jim Pappas

Functionally, blueboard us sheetrock.  The major difference is that the paper
is chemically treated (I think) to better absorb plaster.  The primary use of
blueboard is that like sheetrock you build walls with it, but rather than just 
putting jointing compound over the nail/screw holes and taping the seams, you
put a skim coat (around 1/16") of plaster over it.  Gives a harder and more even
surface than sheetrock.

-mark

    Let's suppose that I have a new split entry.  There is a four foot
    high foundation and a four foot kneewall on all four sides.  Now
    let's just say that before the building inspector shows up, someone
    decides to take a chain saw and cut right down the kneewall, through
    the top two 2x6's, down the outer plywood, and half way through
    the bottom 2x6.  What would have to happen to get this house to
    pass a building inspection?  I'm not talking about hiding it, I'm
    talking about a repair that meets code in Mass.  Can it be repaired
    or would the house have to be raised and the front kneewall replaced?
    
    PLEASE!!!!!!!  I go on vacation after today and am looking for some
    quick responces.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Chris D.

    
    	I would think that a properly sized header and jack studs on
    both sides, connecting to the original studs, would be stronger
    than the original top plates and thus a viable solution.  I have
    no idea if this would be to "code" however, nor do I even know
    if the "code" would cover an application like this.  I doubt if
    you would have to replace the entire kneewall.  That seems a bit
    extreme.  Maybe a small portion of it where the cut is, but not
    the whole thing.
    
    	Can we speculate on how this happened?  Kids get tired of the
    saturday cartoons or something?

    re: .01  I really wish I knew who did it.  It was either the button-up
    crew that came back 4 days after the house was set on the kneewall
    (it's a modular home) to side the kneewalls and do alot of other
    finish work or, and I hope this isn't the case, it was the guy across
    the street that wasn't too happy to have a house built across from
    him.  I do hope it was the button-up-crew because I'd hate to think
    that I would have a neighbor that is that stupid.
    
    BTW, if you read this after today, go ahead and give me a responce
    to .0 .  I'll probably log in once and awhile from home anyway.
    
    Chris D.

Have the building inspector come look over the damage and tell you how he
wants it fixed. 

    - You'll find out exactly what you have to do, rather than trying to
      guess, and having to do it over if you guess wrong. 

    - He'll be very interested in knowing about this act of malicious
      construction-site vandalism in his town, especially if construction
      "professionals" may have done it.

    - Having an official record of the damage will be handy if you wind up 
      taking any legal action about it.

    I need a little advise.  I am thinking of building an entertainment
    center to house my 19" TV and my stereo.  1)What type of wood should
    I use? 2) How should the corners/edges meet (i.e on edge, with
    dowels..) and with what type of enforcement?(dowels? nails?, screws, etc.)
    Any advise would be greatly appreciated
    
    Thanks,
    Scott
                                    
    

    Insufficient data.
    
    1) What type of wood is determined by what type of finish. Do you
       want natural wood, paint, plastic laminate, tile... Also cost
       is a big factor.
    
    2) What type construction depends alot on what style you want.
       Traditional ( Chippendale, Hepplewhite, etc. ), Colonial,
       Scandanavian, modern ... Built in or movable? What type of tools
       do you have, and what is your skill level?
    
    Alan
    
    

    Ok.
    
    1. I want a natural wood finish, and don't want to spend that much
    (<$200.00)  
    
    2. I just want a traditional wall unit, and I do not have all the
       tools that technology offers today.  The basic hammer, screwdriver,
       drills and bandsaw, etc...
    
    3. My main request is advise on how to build the sturdiest unit
       possible.
    
    thanks,
    

See 521 for more ideas.

    I considered building a E/C for my TV and stereo, after I priced
    plywood(birch,oak, etc) and hardware and glass doors I went to
    Lechmeres and bought their oak faced unit for 179. It took 3-4 hours
    to assemble and when I was done I said to my wife,"Look at the nice
    entertainment center I BUILT."
    
    ~jeff
    
    Homemade units usually look homemade.

    I have done this cinario (sp) both ways.
    
    I have found that the store-bought/your-assemble models well worth
    the money/time.  And like the last reply, 
    
    Homemade one look homemade, unless you do it for a living.

    The author might try posting this in Woodworking_and_Tools.  He
    is sure to get a lot more support there 8-).
    
    To add some encouragement, you *can* build your unit so that it
    doesn't look homemade.  Most of the veneer on particle board store
    bought wall units where "some assembly is required" I wouldn't put
    in my basement, much less my living room.
    
    Bob
    
    

    Store bought units really only work well when you can live with
    the dimensions of the unit.
    
    In my case, I am planning to build one out of solid oak (instead
    of a veneer), and it will cost about as much as a store bought unit.
    BUT, it will be to the dimensions I need/want.
    
    Then again, it is a convenient excuse to build something (and get
    more practice) and possibly acquire some more toys...er..tools :-).
    
    - Mark

        1)What type of wood should
>    I use? 2) How should the corners/edges meet (i.e on edge, with
>    dowels..) and with what type of enforcement?(dowels? nails?, screws, etc.)

    I've found that the best material to use is 3/4" oak or birch plywood
    with oak or birch molding to cover the plywood edges.  
    That's how the better Lechmere-type units are made.
    
    Use a router when joining edges together, then glue and finishing
    nails.
    
    Just be aware that the finished product will be very heavy.
    

       Having recently moved house, as a matter of expediency I bought a
       few "some assembly required" units, to "make do" until I can get
       around to doing the job properly.

       After unpacking the first and noting the quality (oxymoron) of
       the unit and particularly of the somewhat sub-sized dowel
       provided to reinforce to butt jointed particle board I made one
       concession to "home made" - I got out my jointer/spliner and
       replaced all the dowel joints by biscuit joints. I suspect the
       particle board may fail under the load, but the joints won't!

       This also allowed me to reposition a couple of shelves  to better
       fit my needs...

       /. Ian .\

    What is a "biscuit joint"?  Do you use Bisquick as glue?  But a
    sausage biscuit at McDonalds and use it as a hammer?
    
    Clay

�    What is a "biscuit joint"?  

  A  Biscuit  joint  or  plate joint is a reinforced butt or mitre joint. The 
  jointing  system consists of a machine for cutting properly shaped kerfs in 
  the wood and oval preformed compressed wood "biscuits" or splines, cut with 
  the  grain  on  a  diagonal.  A  box  of  splines  costs about $35 for 1000 
  biscuits.  The  concept  was  invented  in  the  early 60s specifically for 
  jointing particle board and plywood in commercial cabinet shops.

  The  jointer  machine has a simple fence system ensuring accurate alignment 
  (unlike  the  complex jigs needed to make dowel joints accurately). You cut 
  the  slots in the opposite faces to be joined: insert a spot of woodworkers 
  glue,  and  put in a biscuit. Clamp together for a few minutes. The biscuit 
  absorbs  the glue, and expands making a pressure locked joint. The Diagonal 
  cut  of  the  biscuit  grain  ensures  against  the  strain  and subsequent 
  loosening of the joint.

  US  availablity:  Freud  and  Porter-Cable  make machines in the under $200 
  bracket:  imported  models from several makers are available (I have an Elu 
  which  is  imported  and  serviced by the Black & Decker organization). The 
  "top  of the line" is the Lamello which is made by the company that had the 
  original patent and costs about $600.

  /. Ian .\

    Re: couple back.

    You can build it yourself out of 3/4" AA (Two sides good) birch 
plywood, contact a local, large lumber yard for help with this. Expect to 
pay about $43.00 a sheet for it, give or take a couple of bucks.

    If you want to see how things can be arranged, look at the "some 
assembly required models, then figure what you like and how to arrange it 
in your unit. My preference would be to NOT BUY one of these chipboard and 
contact paper wonders.....they may or may not have a life expectancy longer 
than a couple of years.

    If you think building it yourself is feasible, and it should be with 
some thought and minimal power tools, then go ahead and do it and keep 
asking us questions, or, better yet, ask them over in the woodworking and 
tools file on DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS. A lot of us read both, but you 
will find some good material already written there.

    A last thought, if you don't decide to build it yourself, look at the 
unfinished furniture stores for assembled but ready to finish stuff. Much 
of that is very good and can be given an excellent finish, better than the 
contact paper you get with the knock together stuff. Take your time 
finishing the piece and it will be great. Again, if you're not sure on 
finishing, just ask!

    Vic

    
    	I just built huge entertainment center last year with brass
    hardware, 7 glass doors, the whole bit. It's about 7'6" high, 5' wide
    and 20" deep (with a cutaway in back to accept a 25" tv. I used
    a 3/4" Luan plywood, beveled the front edges with a router to reduce
    them slightly and attached 1/2" half round stock to the edges. There
    are a few permanent shelves, which I routed grooves into the walls
    to hold, and the remainder are on adjustable tracks recessed into
    the walls.  However, I didn't want a wood finish, so I took about
    two weeks to hand paint a faux blue granite finish w/clear coat.
    It came out terrific! People are always amazaed that I built it
    myself. It took a lot of time and planning, but it was worth it.
    

    Homemade only looks homemade if you don't take enough time, or if
    you bite off more than you can chew!  
    
    							* MAC *
    
    P.S. - If your going to work with plywoods like luan, I strongly
    	   recommend investing in carbide router bits and saw blades!

    I built one about 3 years ago out of 3/4 inch solid Red Oak, and
    I can't say that I could have ever bought one that looks as good,
    or works as well for what I have.  It looks like this:
    
    	-------------------------                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |------------------|
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
        |       |               |                  |
    	--------------------------------------------
    
    
    The two wide openings are wide enough to hold 19 inch standard stereo
    components, the single thin opening is actually 3 drawers, two for
    CDs and one for miscelaneous stuff.  (the big one for miscellaneous
    stuff is on the bottom)   I had originally intended to put glass
    doors on it, but I never did it and it turns out that most people
    I know who have glass doors have taken them off because they're
    a pain in the neck to open/close every time you want to use the
    stereo.  The opening on the right hand side of the top is a shelf
    for the turntable, which allows me to open the dusctover on the
    turntable because there is no top on the cabinet.  I didn't know
    how much I'd like the idea when I built it, but it has turned out
    very well.
    
    
    As for construction.  It's made of solid red oak, and has rounded
    mitred corners.  I cut all of them by hand with a circular saw and
    fitted them by hand to make them fit.  (yes, it took a while, I've
    since grown up to a table saw, which would have made this project
    much easier)  The dados for the uprights and the turntable shelf
    were done with a router! (again, no table saw).  The shelves are
    made of 1/4 inch glass supported by 3/8 inch dowels drilled into
    the uprights and sticking out about 1/2 inch.
    
    I'll second the comment made in .13 that homemade only looks homemade
    if you don't take your time doing the project right.  I've had numerous
    people ask me where I "bought" my stereo center (as well as my coffee
    table) only to be quite surprised when I tell them that I made it.
    
    
    
    -bill

    I made a beautiful cabinet out of 1 1/2 inch pine!  My furniture  
 is Early American so that is why I went with the pine instead of oak.
 Pine is beautiful and easy to work with.  I enjoy the comments from
 people when they ask where I bought the cabinet....its home made
 but if you take the time to do it right you can take a lot of pride
 in saying you built it.  I upgraded all my stereo equipment and TV.
 Bought them all, took measurements and went to work in the cellar.
    If you have the time, build it yourself, go for it!


                  ===========================================
                    |_____________________________________|
                    |                                     |
                    |              Receiver               |
                    |-------------------------------------|
                    |                                     |
                    |             CD player               |
                    |-------------------------------------|
                    |                                     |
                    |           Cassette deck             |
                    |-------------------------------------|
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |                TV                   |
                    |                                     |            
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |                                     |
                    |=====================================|
                    |                                     |
                    |                VCR                  |
                    |-------------------------------------|
                    |                                     |
                    |           pull out draw             |
                    |                                     |
                  ===========================================

    
    
    Has anyone out there used premade kneewall drawers. I'm helping
    a friend finish his attic and instead of wasting alot of dead
    space we decided built-in kneewall drawers would be nice.
    
    I checked alot of old notes and couldn't find anything.
    also, are there any places that sell these, I live in Nashua.
    
    
    Royce

    I know RIVCO sells them.
    
    I'd try builder's square also.
    
    I'm going to build my own.

    re:.1   thanks, I'll check BS tonight and rivco also.
    
    
    
    
    Royce

What's a kneewall drawer?

Bob

    Normally, in a cape or gambrel, there is a half-wall or knee wall
    some distance in from the outside wall in the upper floor.
    
    I belive it's called a knee wall since in some instances one has
    to kneel or squat in order to move around.  Certainly behind the
    kneewall you kneel due to the slope of the roof.
    
    A set of kneewall drawers is a built in unit that fits in to make
    use of otherwise wasted space.  You just gotta be careful how you
    insulate the unit.

    Below is this "artist's conception of what a 1 1/2 floor New England Cape
    looks like. The roof slope is wrong but perhaps the picture works
    The area labelled 1 is the attic. The areas labeled
    2 are called crawl spaces.  The are labelled 3 is the 2nd floor
    and the area labelled 4 is the main floor. (basement not shown)
    The kneewalls are the vertical walls that separate the 2nd floor
    from the crawl space. Kneewall drawers are "builtins" for the knee
    walls, that are very common in Capes, or in converted attics of
    older homes. One of our upstairs bedrooms has two dressers that
    were installed in the knee wall.
    
    
    
                                   /\
                                  /  \
                                 /    \    
                                /  1   \    
                               /        \    
                              /__________\    
                             /            \    
                            /|             \    
                           / |     3       |\
                          / 2|             |2\
                         /___|_____________|__\
                        / |                   |\
                          |                   |
                          |        4          |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          ---------------------
    

One of the dumbest things I've ever seen was some clown who put 
in fake kneewall drawers. He basically nailed the fronts up.

What's the point?

Good luck.

    
    Point of interest:
    
    	Rivco is burning down even as I type this. The building caught
    	fire at about 5am. One Nashua radio station said it is a 5-alarm
    	fire with the Fire Departments of neighboring towns pitching
    	in to help. The fire has shutdown rte 101a temporarily.
    
    								*MAC*

RE: .5  

If the drawing in .5 is a 1 1/2 story , what is this:
    
                                   /\
                                  /  \
                                 /    \    
                                /      \    
                               /        \    
                              /          \    
                             /            \    
                            / ____________ \    
                           /                \
                          /                  \
                         /                    \
                        / |                   |\
                          |                   |
                          |__________________ |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          |                   |
                          ---------------------
    

    
    re. previous
    
    Houses like this with dormers for each window are called Dutch Colonials.

    
    
    Well I guess I won't go to Rivco tonight......
    
    maybe they'll have a fire sale, I like the "scorched" look...
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    mmmm 
    sure could use some 
    Burnt Umber
    for the frescoes above the
    dummy knee wall drawers

    

    
    I don't know about Burnt Umber, but I'm sure they'll sell
    you some burnt lumber. :-}
    
    							* MAC *

    I drove by last night and, although the showroom right on the street
    looked as usual, *ALL* you're gonna get from the warehouse is burnt
    lumber!  And ash!  (Or is wet ash really "mud"?)
    
    What a Mess!!!  (Too bad!)
    
    Sherry
    

    
    RE original note
    
    It's been almost two years.  How'd it come out?
    
    					Frank
    

Re: < Note 785.17 by DEMING::HLQAR >
                          -< Well, we're waiting ... >-

    
>    RE original note
>    
>    It's been almost two years.  How'd it come out?


Thanks for all the replies.  Actually, it came out angled, rather than
curved (too many projects, too little time).
                                       
-gary     
                       

    Probably a little late but what the hey.  I bought 4 sets of
    unfinished drawers in Manchester N.H., each had 3 drawers in
    the unit.  I enclosed them with Luann, (spelling??).  I put
    a 4 shelf book case unit between them and a 2 shelf book case
    unit on top of each.  What a savings of space in those rooms.
    There is about half a dozen good unfinished furniture places
    around between Nashua and Manchester.  Have fun...
    
    
    Dan
    

   re. 14
    
    >I enclosed them with Luann, (spelling??)
    
    I am not sure what you mean by enclosed.  Do you mean you used laun
    instead of sheetrock between the units?  Do you mean you used a
    piece of luan and cut holes out for the drawers to fit thru so that
    you have a "paneled" wall with built in drawers?  Do you mean you
    put in dust covers to seperate the drawers?
    
    > and a 2 shelf book case unit of top of each.
    
    How tall is your knee wall?
        
    
        

    re. 15
    
    The drawer units were frame, drawers, and handle hardware.  To keep
    the kids clothes protected I boxed in the frame with Luan.
    
    The drawer units were 3 normal size drawers.  Put a 4 inch space
    between the drawer unit and then 2, 8" high shelves.
    
    
    
    ---------          -----------          ----------
    |-------| <shelves>|         | <shelves>|--------|
    ---------          -----------          ----------
                       |         |
    ---------          -----------          ----------
    |       |          |         |          |        |
    |       |<drawers  ----------- drawers> |        |
    ---------          |         |          ----------
    
    
    Normal knee wall as far as I know....
    
    
    Dan

    I am about to frame out a large closet in a bedroom that has wall
    to wall carpeting. The new closet will require framing over the
    carpeting. My question is when I lay the studs on the floor do
    I have to retack and restreach  the carpet where I cut out for the
    stud or can I simply frame over the carpet. I feel I'll have to
    cut the carpet ,but if anyone has ever done it without cutting I'd
    be glad to take that advice as it would be much easier. 
    Thanks in advance      Joe

    Joe, 
    
    A question that I have is what if you want to change the carpet
    in the future?  You will have to cut the carpet to remove it and
    then you will have some of the carpet visible from the side where
    it extended below the wall.  On the whole, I don't think leaving
    the carpet under the wall is a very good idea.  It will also look
    funny to have a carpet extend underneath the wall anyway.
    
    Just my $.02 worth.
    
    Patrick

	
    You can but it will look funny.  At DEC they do it all the time in our
    building.  I don't think that it is the recommended method but it is
    done. 
	
    I think you would have problems getting the sheetrock and baseboards
    to fit.  I recommend cutting out the strip of carpet for the new
    wall, pull back the carpet, put down new tack strips and stretch
    the carpet using a knee kicker.

    You'll also earn an entry by the next owner in the "why did they
    ever do that" note (8-) ! 

    
    
    OH NO MR. BILL!! NOT THE CARPET UNDER THE WALL TRICK!� 
    
    I had to replace the kitchen linoleum in a house where some %^&#@*
    did just what you are talking about. I think they actually took
    it a step further than you are thinking of because it went under
    the wall into the bathroom as well as under the counters and cabinets.
    I then discovered they had done the same with the ceiling tiles.
    Let me tell you it was no fun. I finally wound up gutting both rooms
    to the bare wall - baseboard - top trim - counters - cabinets - door
    jams - ceiling tiles - and linoleum -- all gone. in other words
    to save themselves a little time and maybe a couple of bucks it
    cost me twice the time and money it should have. 
 
    

    
    Materials not to be used as sub-flooring:
    
    		1. Foam rubber
    		2. Old magazines
    		3. Bread (all kinds)
    		4. Cardboard
    		5. Carpet
    		6. Styrofoam
    		7. Jello
    		8. Grass clippings

    
    Soooo, I guess a combination of 1 and 5 pretty much covers it!

    ;-)
    

    
     Simular in my case that prompts me to say "NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO".
    
     My living room and dining room were created by someone putting
    up a wall that went OVER the heater duct. They also left the
    base boards in. Boy was this ever fun replacing baseboards without
    detroying that wall. Not much I can do with the heater duct though.
    Just hope the next buyer doesn't see this...
    
                         HEATER DUCT
         __________________________________________________
        |              |_____________|                     |
        |                         |  |                     |
        |                         |  |                     |
        |     DINING              |  |        LIVING       |
                         
                                            
    I can just hear the new onwers now! AAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY
    
    Do it right is what it comes down to...
    

    I would not do this as well.
    I would suggest cutting two sides of the carpet where the
    new closet will be, but dont cut along the door side of the
    closet. fold back the carpet, put in you framing wallboard
    then replace the flapped over carpet back in place, some
    triming will be needed. this will make the interior of the closet
    seem as though it was there since day 1.
    Can never have too many closets!
    
    jim

    
    
      I recently purchased a house with a large master bedroom. The room
    has a huge walk in closet on one wall. Plenty of space for most couples.
    The previous owners must have had mega wardrobes and had built another
    closet in one corner of the room. I removed that closet recently and
    thank God they didn't cut the carpet. It took a while for the carpet
    to raise back up, but after a little wall and ceiling work you'd never
    know it was their. Now I can't say I condone this type of work but in
    my case I was glad they left the carpet alone. Besides that it was
    not even noticeable in the first place.
    
    
    BAL

For my last wedding anniversary, my parents sent me a card that said:

What do most older married couples find that they never have enough of?

Closet space!

Personally, if I ever found out that a previous owner had *removed* a
closet, I'd post a "why did they EVER do that?" note.  It always amazes
me how my junk expands to fill the space available.  I respect people
who don't have that problem, but I sure don't understand them!

	Enjoy,
	Larry

                    < At least I think they're cardboard>
    
     Mr. Moderator, I looked under all the keywords, and found nothing
    on this topic. However if it is discussed in another note please
    feel free to move this one.
    
      O.K.. I just bought a house, and now we are moving in. There are
    a few things we need to do to make it livable, like put in a shower,
    and put up some decent looking wallpaper.
      First some backround on the house. It was built in 1953. and it's
    located in Fitchburg, MA.. It's a two bedroom, full attic, full
    basement house. That's about all there is.
      Just one thing we noticed right off the bat though.
      All the walls in the house are covered with what looks like pressed
    cardboard. It's about 1/4" thick and nailed directly to the 2x4's.
    Over that is wallpaper. The board is kinda rigid but also kinda
    flimsy (I wouldn't want to hang anything on it or lean against it).
      Now the questions. Is it cardboard? Can we just put sheet rock
    over it? 
      Tearing it down really isn't an option because the house is loaded
    with blown in insulation.
      What about a vapor barrior? 
      Should I / could I do anything else?
    
     Thanks in advance, 
                     Jerry
    
      

    Maybe it's the panelling that you can buy that already has wallpaper
    on it.  It's supposed to be put up just like regular paneling. 
    I've used it before in a previously owned house (over sheetrock)
    and it looks nice.  I would think it's much to flimsy to use without
    a backing.
    
    Chris D.

    Could it be something called "homosilt"?  If so, it's material is
    grey in color and was a cheap substitution for sheet rock.  I don't
    have it in my house, but I remember using it for siding of a tool
    shed on a vacant lot.  It did last well as long as no one throws
    a large rock through it.  My father-in-law has this stuff combined
    with wood molding for his basement's ceiling.  For a ceiling, not
    bad; but for walls is poor.
    

I wonder if you're talking about the same stuff as what's used for cubical
walls in the older office areas here at the Mill.  If so, it is essentially
very strong cardboard.  There shouldn't be any problem with it as long as you
don't have a habit of punching the walls and you locate studs for pictures,
etc. but it would be best to replace it when you get around to renovating a
room.

I don't see a problem leaving it in place for exterior walls.  Find out if
there's a vapor barrier behind it, if not, put one between it and the sheetrock.

-Mike

    I have a place at the CAPE and it was done in the matterial you
    speek of, it has different names homosilt is one of then beaver
    board is another someone called it. Rest assured it does NOT contain
    asbestose I had mine tested. I took all mine down but I didn't have
    insulation to deal with. The reply that said put a vapor barrier
    over it and then sheet rock has the best suggestion. Sometimes it
    has strapping over the seams that can be taken down I think it was
    put up just for looks.
    
    Good luck,
    Paul
     

         Thanks for the replies. I guess it's o.k. then, to put sheet
    rock over the stuff.
         
         re .1) That's what I thought, but the paper was put on after
    the boards were nailed to the 2X4's.
    
         re .2) It's not Homosilt, I've delt with that stuff before.
    The stuff I have is a little thinner but also a little denser.
         Kinda reminds me of Pegboard, but without the holes.
    
         re .3) Don't know about the cubicle walls.
                What should I use for a vapor barrior?
    
         re .4) Thanks for the heads up on the asbestose. I was thinking
    of having tested to see what kind of goodies were in the fibers.
                Now if only my asbestose shingles didn't have asbestose
    in them (I know, they're o.k.).
    
                          
                             thanks for the replies, keep those comments
    and suggestions comming. I need 'em.
                                Jerry
    

FWIW, I believe it's Homosote.  Also used for inexpensive "cork" boards.

  If it's like pegboard without the holes then my guess would be
MASONITE which has been used for years as a paneling and for a finished
surface on benches, floors, etc.  If so, use HARD nails when you put up the
sheetrock.  This stuff is tough.

Al

    <--(.6, .7)
    
    Yeah, the name is "Homosote", often used to back up posters and that,
    and as a cheap sub for corkboard (I used it when I designed a group of
    corporate bulletin boards back in my commercial-artist days).  It's
    very soft, very light-weight stuff, basically just thick newspaper
    (it's cellulose).
    
    But I agree with Al (.7):  if it reminds you of pegboard, then it's
    almost certainly masonite.
    
    						=maggie

    I am renovating a room which was once a single-car garage for a frame
    ranch.  I'm thinking about putting sheet rock up over the 1/4" chip
    board cieling.

    The room is ~24x13, and the ceiling joists are 2x6 on 18" centers
    running the _long_ way (~14' spans overlapping at center).

    There is no supporting wall where the joists meet.

    The joists are supported from above by a single 2x10.  I haven't looked
    closely at the method for hanging them, but I'd bet that each joist is
    just attached by a chunk of 2x4 with some nails in it.

    Needless to say, I'd bet that this will not hold up sheet rock, at
    least safely.

    I'm mulling over options.  Here are some I have thought of:

       1. Make sure that the ties from the 2x10 to the joists are safe.
	  (Add metal strapping wrapped around the joists and nailed to
	   the 2x10).

       2. Thicken the supporting beam by adding one or two more 2x10's,
	  and strengthen ties as in 1.

       3. Add a supporting beam underneath, and sheet rock around it.
	  (This ranch looks like the house the Brady Brunch traded up out
	   out of -- no point in putting in a nice wood beam -- brown
	   styrofoam would fit the style, though :-)

    Which of these do you think would both be safe and meet code?  Any
    suggestions about calculating the required dimensions of a beam of
    "laminated" 2x stock?
    
    As a side note, I inherited this mess from a truly happy-go-lucky
    DIYer.  They had sawed through the headers over the doors to raise the
    doors, installed windows with NO headers (dangling studs), and done
    amazing things to an insect-damaged sill (involving a sawzall and some
    2x4 knee bracing at the base of the studs they hacked off with the
    sill).  They also removed a post from the front porch, presumably
    because someone either backed into it with a car or it was also
    infested with termites.  Needless to say, the roof is saggig a bit over
    this room...

    Assuming that you would get a PERMIT for this work, you may want to
    talk directly to your Building Inspector.  He/She would know the lumber
    dimensions that you would need to safely support the ceiling (there is
    a book available to help with that).
    
    Bob O.
    

  I did a quick scan under "box" and it appears the following has not been dis-
cussed here before.
  There is a discussion in HUMANE::DIGITAL about problems getting packages de-
livered at home by UPS. The problem is that UPS can't put packages in mailboxes
and they are reluctant to leave packages at the door when nobody is home, be-
cause UPS holds the driver responsible if a package is stolen after delivery.
This is a serious problem in this day and age when there often is nobody at
home during business hours. The alternative of picking up the package at the
UPS office is often even more unpalatable. 
  It seems to me that there is a simple solution to this (IF you own your
dwelling unit or the landlord is agreeable), which is to install a box in the
outside wall near your front door for people to deliver packages in. It would
be set up in such a way that it can be accessed from outside without a key but
once the package is in, nobody can reach in and pull it out from the outside.
Sort of like a night deposit slot at the library or bank, but large enough to
accommodate a large package.
  Is a device like this available for residential use? If so, who makes it and
who sells it? I don't plan to have a house built anytime soon, but if I ever
do, I will seriously consider installing a device like this.

    
    Bob,
    
    Wouldn't a simple deadlatch on a door do the trick?  It would
    be "one shot" in that you could only get one delivery though.
    
    Colin

re: .0, Bob

Your description conjures up visions of the "Dairy doors" that houses from the
early part of this century had. Outside door on the outside wall. Inside door
on the inside wall. Empty space between. Milkman left product in the space
but couldn't gain entry to the house. It didn't have the non-retractible
feature you suggest, but I alway thought it was a neat thing at my grandmother's
house.

-Jack

    When I was a kid, we had a heavy wooden box, like a big trunk, for the
    milk to be put in - I don't suppose there are milk delivery trucks
    anymore anyhow.  I'd settle for UPS just leaving stuff underneath the
    front steps.  I don't like it when they leave stuff with random people
    several houses down the street that I don't even know, and who may or
    may not ever tell me that they have something of mine...  I'm now
    expecting a box tomorrow that I really, really need first thing
    Saturday morning (the shipper had screwed up - finally tracked down
    someone there who knew what was going on and discovered that the reason
    it hasn't arrived yet is that they messed up and hadn't shipped it yet!
    - now it is coming next-day-air, or so they say.).  I sure hope it is
    sitting at home when I get home tomorrow!  It won't help me one bit if
    it is sitting at some random neighbor's house, or if I find a little
    yellow stickum saying that they wanted me to physically be there!
    
    I'd really rather stuff show up at the local post office.  It's much,
    much closer than the UPS depot, and is inside out of the weather and
    away from marauding local kids who walk off with stuff once in a while.
    
    I suppose you could design a "package chute", like a laundry chute, so
    a box could be inserted by the delivery truck person on your front
    steps, slide inside, and end up in your cellar, without it being big
    enough for a child or an animal to do the same.  Might have to put
    something soft under it; a lot of stuff wouldn't survive hitting the
    cement floor.
                 
    /Charlotte

      I think the outside box is a good idea. It would be pretty easy to
    rig up a latch that would not allow the top to be opened if there was a
    package inside.
    
    				Kenny

  Yes, I have seen those milk boxes built into the wall. This sort of thing
would do, but I was thinking of going one step further, and have the package
slide out of reach.
  It also would be fairly easy to rig up a box to put on your front porch for
someone to deliver packages to. But it would be much easier to buy something
ready-made. 

    
    re .3  (Bringing this down a rathole for a minute)
    
    > I don't suppose there are milk delivery trucks
    >    anymore anyhow. 
    
    	Actually, there are.  We have our milk delivered, glass bottles and
    all, into one of those wooden boxes.  If you get used to this really
    fresh milk, store bought milk is nearly impossible to drink.
    
    	FURTHER down the rathole:  we had to convince our condo association
    that the milk box was not a decoration (they don't allow decorations
    outside, not even wreaths on the door) but REALLY a milk box.   They
    wanted to know if we could put it inside.  Well, we COULD, but then the
    milk man won't be able to deliver the milk... fortunately we are
    moving!

    How sad...

  When I lived in Milford, MA in 1991, there was a man delivering milk in the
area. I have lived in several places in metro-west since 1977, and this is the
only place I have seen milk delivered.
  Re condo assn.: That was to be my next question. If I were having a townhouse
condo built, I would want to have a package delivery box built in, and it would
be more likely to pass muster with the condo assn and contractor if it were
ready-made. 

    As a footnote to the milk-delivery tangent, A.C. PArker & Sons in
    Clinton, Mass., still delivers milk in glass bottles to homes.

    FYI, some UPS drivers will leave boxes at the door -- ours do.  It
    probably has something to do with the fact that we have a back porch 
    so packages are protected from the weather and are not visible from the
    street.   Plus, we get an awful lot of packages.  Anyway, maybe the
    key feature you need to get your UPS driver to leave packages is to
    have a hidden protected place to leave them, without it necessarily
    being a security container.  
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

  Re -.1: There are several solutions if you are not subject to condo assn.
rules. My concern is that I think the problem of receiving packages in multi-
family residences where the units don't have outside entrances is going to keep
getting worse. Architects could design and build in solutions to this if they
wanted to. The problem is that people don't usually think of "trivial" things
like this when they ask an architect to design a complex.
  If the idea of building boxes into an outside wall for receiving packages is
not feasible, another idea is to build in several large boxes in the mail re-
ceiving area (about one for every three units) and have people who expect to
receive packages rent them. The box would have a gizmo such that anyone can
put a package in but only the unit owner, with a key, can take a package out.
Sort of like a book return box at a library, but with a smaller box and a
larger slot. Of course this setup would take up space and cost money, but I 
think it the unit owners could make this happen in some cases if they were 
sufficiently frustrated over the difficulty of receiving packages.