Conference 7.286::home_work

                Yes. You need a three way dimmer.
                
                /s/     Bob

    Re: 4-way switches.
    
    I didn't have any trouble finding them - I found them at two electrical
    supply houses.   One didn't have ivory, only black.   Prices at
    both places were in the $13.00 each range (Spags was too far.)

>    Re: 4-way switches. ... (Spags was too far.)

There are a few "specialized" electrical items that Spag's doesn't carry -
too low volume, I guess - and I seem to remember that 4-ways are one of them.

    SPAG'S DOES carry 4-way switches. They aren't on display though,
    you have to ask the clerk they'll get it from out back!
    
    Charly

I did ask - guess they were out at the time.  Thanks for the clarification.

    Ah yes... this reminds me of one of my "pet peeves" with 90% store
    clerks EVERYWHERE.
    
    ME: Excuse me, do you have any wigits?
    
    STORE CLERK: NOPE... don't have em. (as they walk away)
    
    ME: Do you mean you don't have them in stock or don't have them, 
        never did, never will?
    
    And then they give you a dirty look as they either tell that they
    never carry "wigits" as if I should have known or they mumble as
    they go out back to find out when the next "wigit" delivery is.

    Charly

		The home that I just purchased has a 3 way light
switch that just went south. One problem is I don't know why they
used a 3 way switch when there is only one wall switch in the room
and only one light.
 Anyway, I tried replacing the switch and blew a fuse. The old switch
looks like this.
             
         red ----- black      Gold Screw *-----*Gold Screw
             |   |                       |     |
             |   |                       |     |
             |   |                       |     |
             ----- White                 ------* Black Screw
            Old Switch                   New Switch
            30 yr's old
  
     I hooked up the wires the same way they came off the old switch
which blew the fuse.  From looking at the diagram on the new switch box
it appears that the wire that hooks to the black screw should be the "hot"
lead (right?)  Questions:

	- How can I find which is the hot lead ? (I do have a wiggy)
	- When I find the hot lead does it matter which terminal
          I hook the two remaining leads to and if so how could
          I determine which lead goes were?
	- I have quit a few others 3 way switches that I would like to
          replace also but after looking at them, the wires aren't even
          color coded.

	Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.
         
                                           Rick L.

    I would guess that it was not a three way switch, but a two way
    switch that had the powered wired through it.  In this case, the black
    and red are always connected, and the connection is made to the white
    when the switch is placed in the on position.  If this is the case,
    then the black is hot (as it should be), and so is the red (it probably
    carries power to somewhere else).  The white is hot when the switch is
    in the on position.
    
    Rich

    RE: .0
    
    I ran into the same thing with a bedroom light switch in my house!
    Talk about confusing.  Trying to put a new 3-way switch in produced
    some funny results.  The light would go on, and all the room outlets
    would go out.  Or the light would go out, and all the room outlets
    came on.  Or the outlets went on and off with the light!  I finally
    just took the wire that was feeding the outlets and wired it directly
    to the hot and ran the light wires to a regular switch.
    
    Isn't electricity fun?

    RE: .0
    
    	If this is true a (2 way switch with power) can I substitute
    a single pole switch and why would you need power to a switch?
    I thought I was confused before now I'm really confused.
    
    				My hairs are standing on end.
                                   Rick L.
    

    RE: .3
    
         I didn't read your reply close enough. (the extra hot to feed
    somewhere else) this is possible. I think I am going to stop and
    get a box of fuse and take a closer look at this switch.
    Thanks for the help so far.
                                        Rick L.
    

    What I've always found useful is to determine where power first
    comes into the box.  Take all three wires off, separate them carefully,
    then put a neon tester (is that what you call a "wiggy"??) between
    each wire and a ground.  Once you've done that, try to determine
    which lights and/or outlets don't work with the wires disconnected.
    That tells you the devices "downstream" from that junction box.
    With these clues, you might be able to start getting picture of
    what the three wires feed.
    
    Jim

    re: .6
    
    Basenote retitled.
    
    -joet

    Related question.

    A three-way switched light in our house is funny.  The upstairs switch
    always turns the light on and off.  The downstairs switch turns the light
    on and off ONLY if the upstairs switch turned the light ON.

    I replaced, successfully I thought, each switch to no avail.  The wiring
    itself is old, and, as you can imagine, would be difficult to replace.

    Any hints?

it is merely wired incorrectly

it should be

                      --------------------------
  POWER------------- sw1                          sw2-------light
                      --------------------------


 POWER------------------------------------------------------light

all the 3-way switches in my house were wrong when I moved in - it 
takes a little detective work (with power off and a continuity meter,
or if you're lucky, color matching) to get it right, but its not too
hard - also open the light and see the wires that go there.  You 
should have enough wires in place to make it work right

    re: .8
    If need be, you can get it right merely by trying all possible
    combinations of wires and terminals at each end; there's no
    combination that will cause problems except by not working.

    Does anyone know what the price of a Leviton 4-WAY switch should
    be? I just purchased 2 and it seems they charged me an arm and a
    leg! (Note, NOT a 3-WAY, a 4-WAY!)
    
    ?
    
    Mark
    

                          -< Price for 4-WAY switch? >-

	Expensive!  I replaced one a few years back.  Bought it at
	Maynard Supply.  Destroyed a $10 bill!

	Bill G.

    Around $8 at Spag's. Not cheap.
    
       mitch

    When replacing several switches while remodeling our downstairs,
    I needed to get one of these.  About a year ago, it was almost $11
    at Ralph Pill (in Nashua, NH).  I just removed the old paint & grime
    from the original.
    
    - Mark

    Bill, you did better than me. I got taken for $13 each,
    but when you need them, you need them. I bought them at Ralph Pill
    in Nashua. We are all in the wrong business.
    
    If I were near Shrewsbury MA, I would stop in at SPAGS and see what 
    they charge.                 
    
    RN

    re: Spag's
    
    It's been mentioned SOMEWHERE in this miasma of information before,
    but...
    
    They don't keep the 4-ways out on the shelves.  You have to ask
    for them.  No ID required, though.  8^)
    
    -joet

    Pardon the ignoramus but What's a 4 way switch ?? I know what a
    3 way is.

    My guess is it's a switch that works with 2 others to control a
    light.  3-way plus 1 maybe?
    

                            -< What's a 4 way ??? >-

Here goes nothing!

Source           Switch           Switch           Switch                 Object
 o-- Hot (Bl) -- 3-way -- (Bl) -- 4-way -- (Bl) -- 3-way -- Switched (Bl) -->
                    \---- (Rd) ----/ \---- (Rd) ----/ 

Bill G.

    Translating the schematic in .4 into English:   A 4-way is a switch
    that can be placed in between two three-way switches.

    Even better! MORE THAN 1 FOUR ways can be placed between two
    3-WAYS. In essence, you could have 100 or 1000 switches ALL controlling
    the SAME light!
    
    M
    

    re: .10
    
    ...if that's your idea of a good time.  8^)
    
    -joet

The descriptions of 3-way and 4-way given so far are correct, but strictly 
speaking they're more "how these switches are used" than "what they do".

A 3-way switch selects a connection:
    from one input 
    to one or the other of two outputs, 
or
    from one or the other of two inputs
    to one output
depending on how it's installed; you buy the same switch for either application.

A 4-way switch connects two inputs to two outputs.  The switch selects whether 
the connection is 
    A to A' and B to B' 
or
    A to B' and B to A'

The "n-way" nomenclature, although universal, is misleading:  there are only 
two operating positions for any of these switches.  n is the number of wires 
connected to the switch. 

3- or 4-way dimmers, timers, and other oddities may be wired differently, but 
the idea is the same.

	3-way = S.P.D.T.  (Single Pole Double Throw)
	4-way = D.P.D.T.  (Double Pole Double Throw)

    I thought there a difference between double pole double throw and
    4 way switches.  
    
    dpdt switch:   A   B                  4 WAY switch:  W   X
                   |   |                                   X   
                   C   D                                 Y   Z
                        
    If you were putting a switch in a 220 line, you would attach the
    black and red into the A,B sides of the switch and attach the output
    side of the switch C,D to the black and red respectively.  When
    the switch is turned on, black continues to black and red continues
    to red.
    
    On a 4 way switch, black and red are connected to W,X on the input
    side;  black and red are also connected respectively to Y,Z.  When
    the switch is turned on, the flow crosses over to the opposite color.
     In other words, when the dpdt switch is turned on, the A flow
    continues to C and the B flow continues to D.  When the 4 way switch
    is turned on, the W flow goes to the Z pole and the X flow goes
    to the Y pole.  This points out the other difference that in the
    dpdt switch all poles are hot when the switch is on and in the 4
    way, either the W-Z OR the X-Y poles are hot, depending on which
    line is active.
    
    This is my understanding.  Is there consensus?  When I order a switch,
    I specify which of the two I want and people behind the counter
    seem to understand.
    
    Tom
     
                                            

    in reply to 1694.14,your right.there is definitely a difference
    between a 4 way and a double pole.it's as you described.

     I believe the correct term for the "DPDT" described in .14 is a
    "DPST" (double pole, single throw).

                Actually we've managed to start talking about three
        different switches here.
                
                1. DPST - Double Pole Single Throw
                        Usually used to switch a 220 line to some device
                        like an oven or large saw or heater. Its claim
                        to fame is that it breaks both hot lines for
                        saftey. This type has 4 terminals (connections).
                
                2. DPDT - Double Pole Double Throw
                        Rarely seen in electrical wiring except as a
                        transfer switch to switch between to power
                        sources (like your generator and the power
                        company). This type has 6 terminals.
                
                3. 4-Way or reversing sw
                        Used most commonly as the third thru n-1th
                        switch in a 3-way/4-way lighting circuit. This
                        type has 4 terminals like the DPST, but is very
                        different inside. It is really a DPDT wired so
                        that the 4 switched terminals are cross
                        connected. The result is such that if you name
                        the input terminals A and B, and the outputs Y
                        and Z; then in one position A connects to Y and
                        B connects to Z. In the other position, A
                        connects to Z, and B connects to Y. Note that
                        this is the REVERSE of the first position.
                
                /s/     Bob


	This is a simple version of a 3-way switch setup.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( f )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x                                                      x                 x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1x       x                                          mqP1x       x     x
  W      x       x                                              x       x     x
  H      x       x                                              x       x     x
  I  lqT1x       xT2qqqqqqqqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqT2x       xT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj                                              mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq RED qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                                                                           x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
Notice the wiring configuration,  This is not the only way it can be done!
The BLACK, RED and WHITE running between the two 3-ways is usually one Romex
cable (14-3).  
This does not include the ground wires!









	This shows the connections when the light is on.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( * )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x      UP                                              x      UP         x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1xk      x                                          mqP1xqqqqqqkx     x
  W      xx<qqqqqqqqqqqqq INTERNAL SWITCH CONNECTIONS qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq>xx     x
  H      xx      x                                              x      xx     x
  I  lqT1xj      xT2qqqqqqqqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqT2x      mxT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj                                              mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq RED qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                                                                           x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
	Both switches are in the UP position.
Current flows from P1 to T1 in switch 1 and then to T1 through P1 to
complete the connection.









	Here, switch 1 is placed in the DOWN position breaking the connection.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( f )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x     DOWN                                             x      UP         x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1xqqqqqqkx                                          mqP1xqqqqqqkx     x
  W      x      x<qqqqq CONNECTION SWITCHED TO T2               x      xx     x
  H      x      xx                                              x      xx     x
  I  lqT1x      mxT2qqqqqqqqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqT2x      mxT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj                                              mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq RED qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                                                                           x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
	The connection is broken in switch 1, switch 2 has not changed.









   	Switch 2 is placed in the down position.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( * )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x     DOWN                                             x     DOWN        x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1xqqqqqqkx                                          mqP1xk      x     x
  W      x      xx            CONNECTION COMPLETED qqqqqqqqqqqqq>x      x     x
  H      x      xx                                              xx      x     x
  I  lqT1x      mxT2qqqqqqqqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqT2xj      xT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj                                              mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq RED qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                                                                           x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
	The connection is now made using the T2 terminals of each switch.









   	This is the same figure, only using a 4-way. Light is on.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( * )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x      UP                                              x      UP         x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1xk      x               4-WAY                      mqP1xqqqqqqkx     x
  W      xx      x                  UP                          x      xx     x
  H      xx      x              lqqqqqqqk                       x      xx     x
  I  lqT1xj      xT2qq B qqqqqT2xqqqqqqqxB2qqqqq B qqqqqqqqqqqT2x      mxT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj              x       x                       mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq R qqqqqT1xqqqqqqqxB1qqqqq R qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                             mqqqqqqqj                                     x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
	The connection is now made by passing through the 4-way.









   	In this, the 4-way has been switched down.  Light is off.


(0
                              lqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk
qq BLACK                      x                                               x
     x                        mq( f )qqqq BLACK qqqqqqqqqqqqk                 x
qqk  x      UP                                              x      UP         x
  x  x   lqqqqqqqk                                          x   lqqqqqqqk     x
  x  mqP1xk      x               4-WAY                      mqP1xqqqqqqkx     x
  W      xx      x                DOWN                          x      xx     x
  H      xx      x              lqqqqqqqk                       x      xx     x
  I  lqT1xj      xT2qq B qqqqqT2xqqqk  lxB2qqqqq B qqqqqqqqqqqT2x      mxT1qk x
  T  x   mqqqqqqqj              xlqqxqqjx                       mqqqqqqqj   x x
  E  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq R qqqqqT1xj  mqqqxB1qqqqq R qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj x
  x                             mqqqqqqqj                                     x
  mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq WHITE qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj
(B
	The connection is broken because the 4-way connects T2 to B1 and
T1 to B2.  In this state, if either 3-way is switched, the connection will be
made and the light will go on.









    

impressive! is there a tool that helps develop these?  or are you just 
a patient (and skilled) ANSI hacker?

    re: -1
    	I saw in some conference a tool that aided in the animated VT
    drawings but I did it using EVE with a good deal of cut/paste.
    
    mac

    Sommervile lumber cariies 4-way switches. They are on the shelf
    next to the other switches. They sell them for $6.99 (or was that
    $5.99).
    Even have your choice of colors. Brown and Ivory.  They also had
    some that had a brown and red.
    
    I never heard of a 4-way switch untill this note was started. 
    Last week I had to buy one because the electrician who did the rough
    wiring on my addition wired it for a 4-way. I spent many hours
    trying to figure out the wiring. With the help of this note
    I have now finished off the electric in the room, and it all works 
    correctly.
    

    I'm a bit late, I guess... just started reading this conference
    lately.
    
    Aren't these 'flip-flop' relays (whatever you call them in Amurrican?)
    used over there? seems a much simpler (and probably cheaper) solution
    (just push-buttons instead of switches, any number of them) flipping
    the relay. Using relays with low voltage coils gives an added elemnt
    of safety, too (but increases the price, of course).
    
    My newish (~5 years) house here (in Germany) uses only these for
    anything that is controlled from more than two places.
    

    Is there anyway to identify the common wire in a three way.
    My problem is my father in his infinite wisdom decided to replace
    the switches on this circuit but when he did he didn't identify
    which wires were connected to which terminals on the switches
    so that the wires did not go back on the way they came off.
    The wiring is original which was done about 1946 and all the wires
    are the same color(some kind of cloth covering) and I am unable
    to determine which one is common lead and which is the hot lead.
    With the way it is now you have to turn the light off from wherever
    it was turned on and since this is a upstair-downstair setup it can 
    get to be very tiring. Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    
    ----
    Jim
    ----
    
              
    

    Re: .34
    
    Disconnect the wires from the other switch.  Clip two of them
    together and use a continuity tester at the other end to find the
    connected pair.  Then clip a different pair together and figure
    out which is which.  You'll need at most three tries.  Then label
    them!
    
    				Steve

    One handy thing -- no matter how you hook up the switch you can't
    do any damage, so if necessary you can figure it out by blind trial
    and error...but keep track of the combinations you've tried!

This seems like a reasonable place to ask:

For three way dimmer switches, the kind with the knob you turn for brightness 
control and push for on-off control:

Are they wired like this?  With the dimmer on one "leg"


                              o---Dimmer--------
                              ^
                             /
		------------o


			      o----------------


Or like this?  With the dimmer before the switch

			      o------------------
                              ^
                             /
            -----Dimmer-----o


                              o------------------

I would like to have a light circuit with multiple switches and a dimmer.  But,
I want to be able to set the dimmer, and them turn the lights on and off with
the push button and remaining switches, having the lights either be off, or on
at the desired intensity.  That is, I hope the second diagram is the prevailing
style.  If both are available, how do I distinguish when purchasing?

      When  you have a light that is controlled from multiple places you
      have two three-way-switches for the first two places (actually the
      first  and  last  place in the circuit).  If you control from 3 or
      more places you also have one or more four-way-switches,  one  for
      each  place  after  the  first  two.   (Actualy the 4-ways are the
      intermediate locations in the circuit.)
      
      If  you  want  to  have  a dimmer switch in the circuit the usualy
      thing is to purchase a 3-way dimmer switch.  (I don't  think  they
      make  4-way  dimmer switches.  At least I've never seen one.)  You
      replace one of  the  two  3-way-switches  with  the  3-way  dimmer
      switch.   Pretty straight forward -- about the same as replacing a
      3-way-switch that stops working.
      
      If  you use a SEPERATE dimmer it would have to be in series either
      BEFORE the first 3-way-switch  or  AFTER  the  last  3-way-switch.
      Otherwise  the  dimmer  would  not be in the circuit at all times,
      depending on which way the 3-way and 4-way switches were set.  I'm
      not  certain about code requirements; it may not be proper to wire
      a dimmer switch in series like this.  In any case it doesn't  seem
      like a good idea. If the lamp to be controlled is a table lamp and
      you don't want to worry about wall dimmers, you cabn get  a  dimmer
      that  connects  between  the  wall outlet and the lamp -- which is
      surely the easies installation.
      
      One drawback with this is that although you can switch the circuit
      on and off from various locations you can only dim or brighten the
      lamp  from one place.  There is a recent note/reply about the X-10
      remote control system that is sold by Radio  Shack  et  al.   This
      system  can  dim/brighten  from multiple locations, if you use the
      correct modules.  It has plug-in modules as well as  modules  that
      replace wall switches. Once you have the modules installed you can
      plug in as many controlers as you wish.

Re .-1
Thank you.

Now could anyone answer my question about the internal wiring of a three way 
dimmer switch?

    I thought they did.
    
    The dimmer portion of the switch is in series with the common
    terminal on the outside of the unit and the actual double-throw
    switch inside the unit.
    
    Or, maybe a picture says it better (the again, my pictures don't
    rank up there with the great artists):
    
    
                     The dimmer
                          |
                          |
               -----------v---------------
               |      --------         / O---- LEG1
               |      |DIMMER|    /  o/  |
    COMMON ----O ---- |ELECT-|--o/       |
               |      |RONICS|       o\  |
               |      --------    ^    \ O---- LEG2
               -------------------|-------
                                  |
                                  |
                             The SPDT ("3-way") switch

>Now could anyone answer my question about the internal wiring of a three way 
>dimmer switch?

      Your  question  did  not make it clear that you were talking about
      the "internal wiring".  But the answer is the same as my  previous
      reply.  
      
      Within  the  3-way  dimmer  switch the dimmer is on the single (or
      "common") leg of the switch.  This is like your second diagram,  I
      think. To the best of my knowledge this is the only way they come.
      In other words, they work the way you want.
                                        
                           o-----------
                          /             
      -------(dimmer)----o              
                          \
                           o-----------

                            light
                              |          -------light
                              |          |
                            light---------
                            | | |-------------- light
                            | |
                            | |-------------------------------Switch
Panel------------------------

add on switch

  This is the way my cellar lighting is set up. The power goes into
the closet light and then 4 lines come out of that light to the other 3 
lights and the switch. I want to add a second switch by the bulkhead
what would be the best/easiest way? I have 2 3-way switches.....
Could I just add another line to that light and  run it over to the
bulkhead switch? Do I have to rewire? any helpful hints would be most
appreciated..

Rick

    Basically you need to run a 14-3  plus ground wire, from the existing 
    switch to the new switch. You do not have to rewire the lights. 
    There must be a diagram in this file on this kind of wiring, and my 
    graphic skills are no the best. I'll leave the picture to someone else.

    Lots of informative answers in this note, so maybe I can get a few more
    regarding my situation.
    
    I plan to replace the overhead light in the entranceway of my
    split-level ranch with a Hunter ceiling fan w/light kit. The existing
    light fixture can be turned on/off at three locations: Basement
    landing, front door & upper hallway. 
    
    The switch I bought for the fan has seperate controls for dimmer &
    fan speed. Would it be possible for me (actually, for the electrician) 
    to wire the fan in such a way that I can control both the lights and
    the fan speed from any of the three locations using three such switches? 
    Or at the very least, could I maintain control of the light from all three 
    locations and control the fan speed from one (or two) of the three
    locations?
    
    Any advice will be appreciated.
    
    Freddie
    

Controlling the light from all three locations is trivial - just use the 
existing wiring from the light that is already there.  For the fan, you will 
have to run at least one additional wire from the fan to one of the switch 
boxes to be able to control it at all.  To be able to control it from the other
switch boxes, you will have to run additional wires to them.  I know that 3-way
dimmers exist, I'm not sure if a 4-way dimmer does (you need a 4-way switch for
any switches past the first two).

It's not really all that inconvenient to only be able to control the fan from
one place - it's not like a light that you really want to be able to turn on 
from either end of a hallway.  You only adjust the fan occasionally.

Paul 

    The X10 switches allow you to do that sort of thing.  There are some
    rather simple switches available from Sears and Radio Shack, but to get
    the level of control you are looking for you will probably have to get
    into the Decora line from Leviton.  (By the way, X10 is the protocol
    used by these switches to provide control on common power lines.)  The
    advantage of these switches is that you don't have to wire the switches
    to the load being switched.  You just put a control module on the load,
    and connect switch modules to some power (vastly oversimplified).  The
    nice thing is that you get things like multipoint dimming, "bedside"
    control, programmable timer-control centers, and other options like
    being able to control your lights by phone, burgular alarm, or garage
    door opener.

    A question on 3 way switches:  
    
    I'm looking for a 3 way switch that has a pilot light in it to let me
    know whether or not my "security" lights are on.  Somerville Lumber has
    one, but it's the decorator module that has a rectangular angled switch
    area (push in at top or bottom) rather than the traditional switch
    handle.  
    
    Anyone know if they make such a beast in the traditional format?  And
    where it might be available from.  
    
    I'm not interested in wiring my own pilot light, by the way (a topic I
    remember seing discussed somewhere in this file).

    Yes, there is such an animal.  When we built our house I needed one to
    put at the top of the basement stairs (garage is in the basement) to 
    indicate if the passageway lights were left on without having to open the 
    basement door.  
    
    You probably wont find one at the normal home store outlets.  I had to
    go to an electrical supply house to find mine.
    
    Jim
    
    

    
    Does this help any: 
    
    		Hubbel wiring devices, part number...1203-PL
    
                3-way switch rated 120volts AC, Red polycarbonate
    		handle glows when load is on. Must have neutral
    		available to operate pilot lamp. Not available
    		with Ivory toggle handle.
     
    		Can be found at well stocked electrical supplies that
    		stock Hubbell or they can cross reference the Hubbel
    		number to another brand.
    
    		Other brands make this type of device but I only have
    		a Hubbel or Bryant catalogs here with me. 
    		Bryant only has lighted not pilot handles. The lighted 
    		handles are lit when the handle is off so that you can
    		find the switch in dark.
    Paul                             
    
    
    

    Thanks.  The lighted handle is the one I'm looking for, since I'm not
    sure neutral is available.  All I really want is a light that lets me
    know if the security lights are on... it doesn't matter whether the on 
    or off state is used to indicate on.  
    
    This weekend, I learned that electrical supply places all close at noon
    on Saturday...

    
  I have a question?   In note 1694.18 there is a diagram of a 3 way
and a 4 way.  In the picture the switch on the right seems to be wrong.
Should the T1 and T2 be reversed or should P1 be moved to the other side of the
box?  I thought that the red wire goes on the exact same terminal on each 
switch.  Is that wrong?

    The only "important" terminal is the common terminal (marked P1 in
    the diagram), usually identified by a black-oxide screw on the
    switch.  The two other terminals (T1 and T2 in the diagram) do
    NOT have to connect to the correspondingly-numbered terminals
    on the other switch; i.e., T1-T2 and T2-T1 is just as legal as
    T1-T1 and T2-T2.  The only affect in "crossing" the "traveler"
    wires will be that in one case the light will be ON when the
    toggles of both switches are in the SAME position (T1-T1 / T2-T2
    connection), in the other the light will be ON when the toggles of
    both switches are in OPPOSITE positions (T1-T2 / T2-T1 connection).

Hi,

I have a three way switch problem in an older home.  I have two lights in my 
basement #1 & #2.   When I turn the switch on/off at the top/bottom of the
stairs only #1 light goes on/off.  In order to turn on/off #2 light I have to 
turn the bulb by hand.  Last night I looked into the switch gang box and
this is what I found:

Top of stairs

one black wire connected to top of switch
two red wires connected to bottom of switch

Bottom of stairs

There are three conduit holes #1, #2, & #3
Out of conduit hole #1 is a white wire and a black wire
Out of conduit hole #2 is a black wire and two red wires
Out of conduit hole #3 is a black wire a red wire and a white wire

The switch has a red wire on top and two red wires on the bottom
All three black wires are cut off and taped together
Both white wires are cut off and taped together

Questions: 

My goal is to have light #2 work the same as #1 with the same switch
(without hand turning the bulb).  How do I do it?  I suspect that
those wires that are cut off and taped are pieces of the puzzle.  

Thanks for any responses,

Jerry

This doesn't exactly sound like kosher wiring.  I'm having a hard time figuring
out what everything is doing.  You'll need to post some more info here to solve
this.

The top-of-stairs switch sounds like a standardly-wired remote 3-way switch, 
although I haven't seen 3-conductor wire with black-red-red before.  You should
be able to leave that switch alone.

In the bottom switch box, the wire coming in conduit #1 (white-black only) is 
probably the incoming power, but that's not totally clear yet.  When you say the
switch has one red wire on top and two on the bottom I assume you mean the red 
from the red-white-black on top, and the two reds from the red-red-black on the
bottom.  The red-red-black wire is the wire coming from the top-of-stairs 
switch, and it's attached to the downstairs switch in almost the way I'd expect.
What I really can't figure out is where the other 3-conductor wire is going.  
From what it sounds like, that wire has power on the black line, and switched 
power on the red line at the same time, which certainly sounds non-standard.

What you need to do to help us figure this out is first, open up the two light
boxes and describe what the wires are doing in there.  Further, if you can
describe which wires go to which boxes, that would help too. (like where does
that red-white-black wire come out, and what is it connected to?)  We may need
you to unconnect everything to see where the power is coming from, but that may
not be necessary.  Lets see if we can figure it out just from what we can find
in the boxes.

Paul

I have a light in my kitchen which has a 3 way switch on one side, and a 2 way 
switch on the other, this only allows the light to go on when both the 2 way 
and 3 way switches are on simultaneously. 

heres the logic:
                                                                key:

                                                          Wf-white fuse wire
                                                          Bf-Black fuse wire
                                                          Wl-white light wire
                                                          Bl-Black light wire
                                                          Ws-white switch wire
                                                          Bs-Black switch wire
                                           

                               fuse
                               |   |
                            Wf |   |Bf
                               |   |
                               |   |
                               +   +
                            Wl +   +Bl
                               +   \
                               +     \
                               +   \   \
                               +   + \   \
                               light   \   \
                                      Bs \   \Ws
                                           \   \
          B                                  \   \
      ----------------------------------------+    \
   3      W                                          \     2
  way ------------------------------------------------+   way
          R                                                
      ------------------------------------------------  



The  problem I'm having is, whoever wired this light, came to the fixture with 
the power rather than going to the switch first.  therefore, I think you can 
only use a 2 way switch unless you want to run another wire.  

Correct??

Can anyone connect the above diagram to two 3-way switches, or one outlet and 
and one 3 way switch, without adding anymore wires? I want to ultimately be 
able to operating the light from todays 3-way switch box?

thanks for the help

Joe
                                                        

I have installed a new 3-way switch in my basement and the switch 
operates  correctly.  The problem is that when I measure the voltage 
across ground and the hot wire that should be off, a small voltage is 
present.  This is true for both switches. 

I cannot get an accurate reading of the actual voltage because changing 
the scale of the meter has little affect on the position of the needle 
i.e. I switch from a 250V scale to a 10V scale and the needle moves to 
the same position.

I get the same behavior with 2 cheap meters.  Is it just noise?

Also, I checked two of the existing sets of 3-way switches in the 
house (on separate circuits) and the same voltage is present in 
both of them.

Any ideas?

-Tom

I'm no good at drawing diagrams, but here's what to do:


Call the old 3-way switch "A".  Replace the 2-way with a new 3-way, "B".

In switch B's box, connect:

	White from light to white from switch A (no connection to switch B)
	Black from light to common on switch B
	Red and black from switch A to non-common switch B terminals.

In switch A's box, connect:

	White to common
	Red and black to non-common terminals


				Steve

                               fuse
                               |   |
                            Wf |   |Bf
                               |   |
                               |   |
                               +   +
                            Wl +   +Bl
                               +   \
                               +     \
                               +   \   \
                               +   + \   \
                               light   \   \
                                      Bs \   \Ws
                                           \   \
          B                                  \   \
 +--------------------------------------------+    \
 |        W                                          \
 |    o--------------------------------------------o  \
 o->      R                                          <-o
      o--------------------------------------------o

   3 way                                         3 way

Of course, I'm not sure this meets code in terms of which colored wires are
supposed to be where, and whether the switch is on the proper side of the 
circuit, etc., but it will give you 2 independent control points with no 
wires beyond what's there.

    RE .54 - cheap voltmeter reading non-zero from ground to (hopefully)
             disconnected hot wire ...
    
    Do you get the same reading when you touch the two leads together?
    
    -- Kenny House

    
    	How many volts? a couple of volts or much more than that?
    
    	

I don't think it matters much about the colors.  Your diagram is essentially
the same as what I described in .1 other than you swapped the use of the
black and white wires in the 3-conductor cable.  No big deal, though I've
usually seen white used as the common carrier in such schemes.

			Steve

Disconnecting the hot wire makes no difference in the reading.

re .56  - just a couple volts. 

    
    
    	I tend to agree with the meter theory although it could be noise
    etc. I see this all time when using a DVM or Analog meter to trouble
    shoot power and lighting circuits. If you happen to be reading back
    through the neutral ie through a bulb filament, appliance etc. You
    could very well be seeing a difference of potential between the neutral
    and the ground. Ther would be a few things to check if you felt that
    you did not want to live with this "stray voltage".
    
    	 Making sure that the neutral to ground bond in the main service
    	entrance is correct and tight would be my first suggestion.
    
    	I am sure that there are a few EMI/RFI experts out there in
    noteland that could offer a few reasons why this voltage is present
    also.
    
        PL
    	

	   The black wires are supposed to be the return to the fixture.
	You never want to have a white wire be the return because you 
	wouldn't be able to tell which one is live and which one is the
	neutral.

					Tim
	

In light switching, none of the wires is "neutral" - you're always switching
the hot lead.

			Steve

    The code used to specify (I don't know about now) that the white wire
    had to be painted or otherwise colored black when used in that
    application.  Perhaps someone can look it up in the code as my memory
    is a bit fuzzy.
    
    Al
    

    RE: .-1
    
    Yes the code still specifies that you must mark a white wire that is
    use as the "black" one within a circuit.
    
    Dan

re: 4441.6 

>The code used to specify (I don't know about now) that the white wire
>had to be painted or otherwise colored black when used in that
>application.  Perhaps someone can look it up in the code as my memory


    As I understand, this is correct. When I tried to purchase "twin"
    black wires; the <apparently knowledgeable> clerk in Somerville
    Lumbers wiring/electrical section said the white wire could be marked
    with black tape of the appropriate color.
    
    As an FYI, I recall purchasing a box of vinyl tape which, had a roll
    or red, white, green, and black tape sometime back (I think it was in
    Radio Shack). Probably not suitable for taping splices; but probably
    ok for marking wires.
    
    In my case, in installing a ceiling fan, I needed to run a wire pair
    for several switches. Sure was a lot simpler running normal wire, and
    taping each end of the white wires.
    
    -Bob
    
    
    
    

Re: .7

Can you cite the section?  I pored over my copy last night and couldn't find
any such statement.  I half suspect this is a sort of "urban legend".  

				Steve

>     <<< Note 4441.9 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

>Re: .7
>
>Can you cite the section?  I pored over my copy last night and couldn't find
>any such statement.  I half suspect this is a sort of "urban legend".  
>
>				Steve



200.7 (Exception #2)

Ross

    re: .9
    
    Refer to section 200-7.
    "	Use of White or Natural Gray Color.  A continuous white or
    natural gray covering on a conductor or a termination marking of white
    or natural gray color shall be used only for the grounded conductor.
    
     Exception No. 1:  An insulated conductor with a white or natural gray
    finish shall be permitted as an ungrounded conductor where permanently
    reidentified to indicate its use, by painting or other effective means
    at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible
    and accessible.  "
    
    Dan

Ah, I had read that but hadn't interpreted it in this context.

			Steve

>     Exception No. 1:  An insulated conductor with a white or natural gray
>    finish shall be permitted as an ungrounded conductor where permanently
>    reidentified to indicate its use, by painting or other effective means
>    at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible
>    and accessible.  "
    
	   "Other effective means?"  What could that allow/mean?

    I was told that "wrapping loose ends with electircal tape"
    was an "other effective means."
    
    ed

    I'm reading "Practical Electrical Wiring," by Herbert P. Richter and
    W. Creighton Schwan, which is based on the '81 code (got it from a
    library).

    They mention an exception for the white wire in cables to switches,
    but never mention the need to mark the wire.  Is this a recent code
    change?  The book left me with the impression that the use in the
    switch circuit was allowed, because in the non-switch junction box
    the white would be bound to a black wire, and in the switch outlet
    box the white would be attached to the switch (and therefore obviously
    hot :-).

    Well, now that I look at my copy of the 1990 NEC, I also see the
    following:
    
      Exception No. 2:  A cable containing an insulated conductor with
      a white or natural gray outer finish shall be permitted for single
      pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops where the white or natural gray
      conductor is used for the supply to the switch, but not as a return
      from the switch to the switched outlet.  In these applications,
      reidentification of the white or natural gray conductor shall not
      be required.
    
    So I take this as meaning that the three-conductor wire between the
    two three-way switches does NOT need to have its white conductor
    marked black.
    
    		Steve

  >    So I take this as meaning that the three-conductor wire between the
  >  two three-way switches does NOT need to have its white conductor
  >  marked black.
    
   > 		Steve


Gee, Didn't I site that exception a couple of replies back. Make sure you
don't
use the white wire as a return conductor from the switch to the light or 
switched outlet.

Ross

    Now I'm stuck.  I've wired 3-way switches, even 4-way, and haven't had
    any problems.  However, I've always worked it this way:
    
    POWER---------> 3-WAY--------------->3-WAY----------->LIGHT
          (14-2)             (14-3)              (14-2)
    
    Now, I'm looking at this, and can't figure it out:
    
           (14-2)             (14-3)
    POWER--------->3-WAY---------------------->3-WAY   
                   \
             (14-2) \
                     \
                      \----LIGHT
                 
    Bottom line, in one box, I've got: 
                                     - 1 black wire (power source)
                                     - 1 white wire (power source)
                                     - 1 black wire (to light)
                                     - 1 white wire (to light)
                                     - 1 black wire (3-way)
                                     - 1 white wire (3-way)
                                     - 1 red wire (3-way)
                                     - 3 grounds
    
    How do I make the connections to get this to work?  Also, to further 
    complicate the matter, I'm installing 3-way toggle dimmers (leviton) that
    look like so:
                             --------  
                             |      |--------- brown wire
                             |      |
              red wire-------|      |
                             |      |--------- black wire  
                             --------  
    Any idea which wires are connected to which to get this to work?  I
    tried numerous scenarios last nite, only to keep tripping the in-line
    GFCI.  Any help would be appreciated.
    

    The white from the power goes to the white to the light, and your done
    with those wires.
    
    The black from the power connects to one of the 3way wires and goes to
    the far switch. (I forgot which color is the correct usage) This is
    connected to the common on the switch, I would guess the red wire on
    the switch.
    Instructions with the switch should say which is common.
    
    The other 2 3-way wires connect to the other two wires on each switch.
    
    Last the Black from the light connects to the common on the first
    switch.
    
    Jean

    RE:  .59
    
    

	Wiring diagram for two 3-way switches controlling one bulb
    
    
		SPDT		SPDT
		3-Way		3-Way
		0-----------------0  
				\   		Bulb
	Power---0\Com	     Com \0------------(@)------
		  \					|
		0-----------------0			|
							|
	Ground__________________________________________|
    
    

      This  will  work.  I _think_ this is the "standard" way to use the
      different colors, but I suggest you consult  your  local  buildign
      inspector to verify that this will satisfy him. Gound is NOT show,
      but all boxes/switches/fixtures should be grounded as required.

                switch                     switch
                box 1                      box 2
               .-------------.    black    .-------------.
p s            | .----o------+-------------+-----------, |
o o  black     | |           |             |           | |
w u -----------+-'  .---.    |    white    |    .---.  | |
e r            |    | 3 |x---+-------------+---x| 3 |c-' |
r c  white     |   c|way|x-. |             | .-x|way|    |
  e -----------+-. |`---'  | |     red     | |  `---'    |
               | o |       `-+-------------+-'           |
               | | |         |             |             |
               `-+-+---------'             `-------------'
                 | |
                 | |         .-----------.
                 | |  black  |  .----.   |l b
                 | `---------+-x|    |   |a o     o = wires joined
                 |           |  |lamp|   |m x     c = "common" terminal
                 |    white  |  |    |   |p       x = other teriminals
                 `-----------+-x|    |   |
                             |  `----'   |
                             `-----------'

    R .62
    
    Nice drawing!!! That's what I tried to say...
    
    Jean

As .63 showed, it works fine.  One nit - The **WHITE** wire in the center will 
no longer be a neutral (part of the time it will be hot) so it should therefore
be recolored other than white or green.  Wrapping black electrical tape over
the white insulation on both ends (maybe 2 or 3 inches) will suffice, or just
color it with an appropriate felt tip marker.


                switch                     switch
                box 1                      box 2
               .-------------.    black    .-------------.
p s            | .----o------+-------------+-----------, |
o o  black     | |           |             |           | |
w u -----------+-'  .---.    |  **WHITE**  |    .---.  | |
e r            |    | 3 |x---+-------------+---x| 3 |c-' |
r c  white     |   c|way|x-. |             | .-x|way|    |
  e -----------+-. |`---'  | |     red     | |  `---'    |
               | o |       `-+-------------+-'           |
               | | |         |             |             |
               `-+-+---------'             `-------------'
                 | |
                 | |         .-----------.
                 | |  black  |  .----.   |l b
                 | `---------+-x|    |   |a o     o = wires joined
                 |           |  |lamp|   |m x     c = "common" terminal
                 |    white  |  |    |   |p       x = other teriminals
                 `-----------+-x|    |   |
                             |  `----'   |
                             `-----------'

You could do it this way instead.  You still need to recolor the **WHITE**


                switch                     switch
                box 1                      box 2
               .-------------.             .-------------.
p s            |             |             |             |
o o  black     |             |             |             |
w u -----------+-.  .---.    |    black    |    .---.    |
e r            | |  | 3 |x---+-------------+---x| 3 |c-, |
r c  white     | `-c|way|x-. |             | .-x|way|  | |
  e -----------+-.  `---'  | |     red     | |  `---'  | |
               | o         `-+-------------+-'         | |
               | | ,----o----+-------------+-----------' |
               `-+-+---------'  **WHITE**  `-------------'
                 | |
                 | |         .-----------.
                 | |  black  |  .----.   |l b
                 | `---------+-x|    |   |a o     o = wires joined
                 |           |  |lamp|   |m x     c = "common" terminal
                 |    white  |  |    |   |p       x = other teriminals
                 `-----------+-x|    |   |
                             |  `----'   |
                             `-----------'

I just love DECwindows.

I thought that the only exception to having a white wire being the hot was when
it was used for a switch.  This means there would be no requirement to mark it
a different color if it ended up on a terminal of a switch.  This goes for
single pole switches also - at least that is what I was told my a master
electrican several years ago - but I have not kept up....

I perfer the lower part of .64's diagrams.

Hi,

		Marking the white wire in a switch loop like in the case of the three
	way illustrated here is not a requirement. I'ts OK to
	leave it white as long as it is not the wire that leads up to the 
	the fixture, receptacle etc from the switch. IE you can't have 2 white
	wires on a fixture or receptacle. This could lead to having polarity
	reversed. 

			ref. NFPA70 Art. 200-7 exception no. 2

		I suppose you could interpret this to mean that in the second 
	drawing the white wire would have to be marked, but not in the first.
	Most inspectors I've dealt with would not find fault with either
	of the drawings regardless of the color scheme as long as you ended
	up with Neutral being white and Hot being a color other than green
	white or grey on the fixture and for the feeder coming from the source.

	
	
	Your Mileage may vary depending which "code book" you choose to use
	or which State your in if they have adopted a standard other than NEC.		
	The NEC is the standard that most "other" electrical codes are based 
	on in the U.S.
		
	How did the author of .59 finally make out? Did you get it to work OK
	with the various diagrams supplied?

	Later
	
	Paul 

    
    Well, I finally got it working, thanx to Paul.  I think he spent more
    time Wednesday thru Friday drawing wiring diagrams than anything else.
    What had happened, after getting the diagrams from Paul, was one of the
    dimmers was blown.  I finally used a standard three-way, and the dimmer
    and hooked it up.  It now works fine.  
    
    Thanks to all who drew schematics, etc.  (BTW, anyone need a blown
    3-way dimmer???  Real cheap?)
    
    Gene