Conference 7.286::home_work

    We used Area Home Inspection, Harvard, last year.  They are in the
    ASHI, although I don't know about the organization.
    
    The inspector they sent knew the Acton area quite well, knew homes
    inside and out, and we got a rather long transcript of his report.
    He was thorough, nice, and efficient.  A decision I have not regretted,
    and I am/have taken most of his recommendations.
    

         Sorry, but I'll have to counter with a vote AGAINST Area Home
    Inspection Co.  When they inspected my house the inspector wrote
    up a nice lengthy report that was half wrong, one fourth right but
    just lucky guesses, and one fourth just reporting the obvious. Anybody
    that can't tell a septic tank from a cesspool has no right to charge
    people to inspect them.  Most of the report looked to me to be guess
    work, things that if he had really gone to the inconvenience of
    getting close enough to really examine, he probably could have
    seen whether his guess was right or not.  He did get some things
    right, the things that were really obvious.  (Yes, that is a crack
    in the front walk.)  He also missed things that were wrong.  
      The person doing this inspection was the owner of the company,
    and he refused to come out again so that I could show him where
    he was wrong.  He is a trained inspector, and therefore his report
    was correct, and I can't show him anything.  What a .......
      Don't waste your money.
    
      When talking to any home inspection company, ask them if they will
    accept liability for any errors in there report.  You see, they
    can report anything that they want, and are not responsible if it
    is incorrect.  (Just send me $200.00 and I'll inspect your house,
    and I won't even have to leave my office to do it)
    
     Maybe they aren't all that bad, but I can't think of any way to
    tell the good ones from the bad before you hire them. If you ask
    for references, they sure won't tell you about the bad ones.   
    Maybe you could ask if they will refund your money if you are not 
    satisfied with their services. Good luck.
    
    jim d.
    
    

I couln't resist commenting on building inspectors.  In my opinion 
(which I have lots of :-)), they're worthless!  Unfortunately I don't 
practise what I preach and use them myself, but I still think they're 
worthless.

Of all the stuff they inspect, the average DYI'er could do as good or 
better.  I actually had one come in and spend 15 minutes taking the 
panel off my breaker box to inspect all the circuits and insure that 
they all matched the size of wires.  Interesting, but it is really that 
important a thing to check?  In 3 inspections, this was the only 
inspector that did this.  I know, there MIGHT have been an
inconsistency, but that 15 minutes could have been used for better
things such as climbing into the attic and checking out other things. 
There MIGHT be problems with LOTS of things that one couldn't possibly 
check in an hour or two.

I think the main goal of an inspector it to make it look good for the 
average home owner and intimidate them into spending $150 or more to 
protect their investment.

The last one I used told me he was so busy he was doing around 1/2 dozen
inspections/day and working 6 and 7 day weeks!  At only a 6 day week 
that's over 5K a week!  I'll bet most of us reading this file could do a 
lot of the same.

But, alas, I figure if the turkey only finds one thing that needs fixing 
it would save me enough to break even AND the thought of me missing 
something dumb would haunt me, so I will probably continue to use them.

The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how good an inspector you 
get, one shouldn't assume because they say everything looks fine that 
it is.

-mark

    Re: .3.  You're correct in saying that most competent DIYers can
    easily do what a house inspector does.  There is one difference
    though.  In most standard Purchase & Sales agreement, there is
    a contingency clause to the effect of: "Buyer has the option to cancel the
    contract if a licensed inspector deems that there are more
    than $xxxx worth of repairs necessary... blah blah blah".
    
    The key is the word *licensed*.  So even if your uncle is a builder
    and inspects the house for you, you cannot use this escape clause
    in your contract.  You must provide the licensed inspector's report
    to exercise this clause.
    
    -al

Re. .4:  Remember

	There is no such thing as a standard contract

When my last P & S was written, it said I could back out if I didn't 
like the results of any inspection done by <date>.  I actually did the 
inspection myself....I don't know much about houses, but for 
condominiums, I concur that home inspectors are not worth the effort.  
Because:  The outside structure of the building is the association's
responsibility - and the inside is not what home inspectors tend to 
check.  

I suspect they are best used in examining very new or very old 
construction - where the focus is on basic construction flaws.
(my $.02)

    When I rewired my folks home in New Jersey to add my three horse
    power organ blower (I changed the service from 30 amps - that's
    NOT a mistype - to 100 amp service [this was 20 years ago] the electric
    company told me to have the work inspected by a UL inspector.  This
    I did and he found a couple of things wrong (like no anti-oxidation
    compound on the aluminum lead in wire), which I corrected.  Was
    VERY nice about it and helpful - this WAS 20 years ago though :-).
    
    In this case I found the inspector MOST helpful.  There again, he
    was from UL and not the town.  That might be what the difference
    was. 
                                                      
    -Bob

	I called all the inspectors listed in the Clinton area yellow
	pages. Talking to them, the ones I liked best were Hallmark and
	Nor'Eastern Home Inspection Service. I went with Nor'Eastern
	because they did spectic system inspections. Gerald P. Morin
	was the inspector and spent 2 1/2 hours looking the place over,
	the house is 22 years old. He performed termite and lead paint
	inspections also (I have a child under 6). I thought he was
	excellent and showed real concern on why things were the way they
	were. He found a *small* leak in the shower because he noticed
	a rag that look like it had been wet before in the basement,
	and a few other things that I would never have thought to look
	for. He was very pleasant to deal with and loved to have you
	ask questions. I wasn't sure about getting the inspection done
	in the first place, but I'm glad I did. It cost me $180 but I
	should recover that cost by fixing thing he noticed that I didn't
	before they get any worse.

Ed

    re .7
    
    	Hope this isn't too late but...  G. P. Morin of Nor'East also
    did my inspection in Milford Ma. nearly 4 years ago.  He saved me
    nearly $4k at closing time!
    
    	He has a list of credentials as long as your arm.  At the time
    he did my inspection he was the 'head' (President, Senior whatever)
    of the officiating board for home inspections required to meet
    the criteria for G.I. Bill loans.  Nor'East gives you what must
    be a 10 page document with all sorts of neat info to take along
    at closing time.  (For an extra fee he will also attend the closing.)
    
    	Nor'East has branch offices in Framingham, but Morin lives in
    Orange Ma.  He did come down to Milford for me back in 83'.  At
    the time I paid $135 ($10 of which was for the Lead Paint inspection).
    
    	BTW - I did all the repair work myself for all the 'faults'
    he found.  I ended up spending $1.5k for parts but when you consider
    he saved me $4k, I'm $2.5k the better for it!
    
    							Lee Wolfe

    Re.7&8  What is the telephone # of G.P. Morin and Nor'East?
    
    Will this place inspect a home up in Mason N.H.  Also is it wise
    to have a new home inspected?
    
    Thanks Dave
    

    Nor'Eastern Home's phone is 617-620-1512. He's not there most of
    the time but has a answering machine. He'll get back to you.
    
    Ed

Are they any good/bad home inspectors in the Hudson/Stow/Sudbury/Framingham 
area that people have had recent experience with (other than Nor'Eastern)?

    re:  .11
    
      I used Hallmark back in October (that's fairly recent) and was
    very pleased.  Even the realtor was surprised how thorough the guy
    was.  Prior to this, the realtor had considered all home inspectors
    the same...useless.  The inspector's name is Bob Giroux and the
    charge is/was  $175 which included termite inspection.  He checks
    all areas that he can gain access to.  I don't know what inspectors
    normally do but I was surprised when he opened the electrical panel
    to verify that the service was 100 Amps and not just labeled as
    such.  He opened the water heater panel to check for insultion.
    He opened the FHA furnace to see if the add-on humidifier was defective
    and causing it to rust out the furnace (he said he had seen this
    happen too many times in the past so it was worth checking). 
    He checked for insulation in the walls and attic.  He recommended that
    I add more insulation in the attic as well as venting and explained to
    me how to do both. I don't know if other inspectors do these things but
    I thought that some of these were beyond the call of duty.  As I
    said before, he is very thorough and I highly recommend him.  By
    the way, he is in Shrewsbury.  If you want any more details let
    me know.
    
      Out of curiosity, I would like to hear from others how thorough/not
    thorough their home inspectors were.  Maybe this information will
    help others in choosing an inspector or at least know what questions
    to ask before hiring one.    
                       
    -Jim
    

I don't know much about Bob Giroux - but his son Jim is an excellent 
exterminator.  Has anyone else used bob?

      I got this number from a friend who said they were very pleased:
    Probe in Worcester area. Tel# 755-2220 ...she paid $140.00 and the
    guy was there for 3 hours. I plan to use them on a house we will
    make an offer on this Friday.... if the seller accepts the offer
    that is.
                BB

    I tried Mr. Gerry Morin of Nor'East, based on recommendations from
    this file.  He was adequate, but he did have a real 
    "more-knowledgeable-than-thou" attitude and wouldn't admit to having
    overlooked certain items I pointed out to him.  Adequate, but certainly
    not exceptional.
    
    My favorite home inspector is still Gabe Valenti at Area Home
    Inspectors.  I know others in this file have had bad experience
    with Area, and I can't vouch for the company, but if you insist
    on Gabe, you won't be disappointed.  He is knowledgeable, thorough,
    and will explain things in as much detail as you care to listen
    to.
    
    I was somewhat displeased with the written report from Nor'East.
    It was merely a checklist, with appropriate comments scratched in
    here and there.  Gabe, on the other hand, sends you a multi-page
    transcription of his thoughts, observations, and suggestions.  I
    found this to be much more useful.

    -Steve
    

Well...I used Gerry Morin just last Saturday, and I can sympathize
with those who say that he is apparently not overly thorough (checks
most rather than ALL of the outlets, etc).  However, I found his
attitude quite friendly, and as advertised, he seems to zero in quite
clearly on the biggie-type concerns.  In this house, the weaknesses
were the electrical system, and the roof.  He took the time to make
sure I understood the situations quite thoroughly, answered all the
questions I had (even when I called him later in the day) and his
report, while not verbose, was quite concise and to the point w.r.t.
any problems he found.   I'll let you know after I move in, but I 
walked away feeling that if there were any major gotchas, he would 
have found them (ignorance is bliss, no?)	/j

More on Gerry Morin:

I was a bit concerned about his inspection, as he did not seem 
interested in checking small details (flushing EVERY toilet, checking 
EVERY sink, and EVERY outlet).  However, so far it appears he was real 
good on picking up any medium-to-large gotchas, and giving me good 
estimates for what they would take to fix.  The only minus is that he 
didn't pick up that the heating system was an obsolete hi-velocity 
system, which wouldn't support a/c (even though I asked him if it 
would) and will be difficult to replace should it ever die.  A plus is
that since he couldn't inspect the roof that day (too much snow) he
came back (as luck would have it - in the torrential rains of last
week) and thoroughly checked the roof, attic (for leaks) and
foundation (for leaks).  I was impressed that he came back spent 1/2
hour, and added to his report, almost 2 months after the initial
inspection. 

    We can recommend an excellent home inspector : Robert Gleason of
    Weston.
    
    We bought our home 8 years ago in Acton. I forget how we got this
    man's name but he was great.  About a year after we used him, he
    was mentioned in Boston Magazine, quite favorably.
    
    He was extremely thorough, down to earth , and honest. He made
    himself available for advice after the home inspection and my
    husband did call him a few times... he was always
    very patient. I think he was in business for himself but also
    taught at Brandeis.  I also believe he was into buying and
    renovating homes himself, so he knew his stuff.
    
                                                             
    I can't recommend him highly enough. I hope he is still around.

    Have any of you had any experience with Home Inspectors Charlie
    Martin (Stoneham) or Rudy Stuart (Acton)? Both have been recommended
    by a realtor to inspect a house in Harvard.  Any other 
    suggestions?                                           
    
    bd

    Used Rudy Stuart to inspect the place we just bought in Chelmsford.
    Did a good job. Thorough, very willing to explain and advise.

    I'll give Rudy Stuart another recommendation. I sold him the house
    he's living in now and he did a good job looking it over before he
    bought it. Very nice to deal with.
    
    Nick

    A friend is remodelling. He is using an out of town builder. And
    is having an icredibly hard time with the local building inspectors.
    They are rude, nasty, s.o.b.s. Whose favorite sentence is "I can
    make you do anything I want."
    
    My question is: what recourse, if any, is there to over-bearing
    inspectors who demand that you do things the way they want, unless
    of course you use their recommended builders. And how much
    interpretation are they allowed in the code?
    
    Specifically, my friends are putting an additional dormer on a second
    floor room. When the room was built it was "not code" (a local builder
    built it). The floor joists are 2x6 20"OC for a 11'6" span. This
    is definitely NG. But, since the floor is not being touched, and
    no room added can the inspector require that the joists be upgraded?
    Can he require that the joists be doubled AND add another one
    10" OC (does this layout equate to 2x6 6.66" OC?)? And to top it
    all off can he require a certain species of wood, Fir, instead of
    the normal Spruce which is used for framing?
    
    My carpentry books show that 2x6 spruce 10" on center (just adding
    one in the middle) will support a 40# live load (normal)
    over the 11'6" span.
    
    It sounds to me that they are being hassled by a tin-horn bureaucrat
    ( or worse ).
    
    Alan
    
    
    	This seems like overkill.

    -----------------------
    -----------------------  doubled 2x6
    -----------------------    
      	        ^
    		|
    		10" OC
    		|
    		v
    -----------------------
    -----------------------  single 2x6
    
    
    
    -----------------------
    -----------------------  doubled 2x6
    -----------------------

    I would seek technical advice from the state ( the "guy's" who regulate
    these inspectors ), and then present this to the local inspector.
    Beyond that, seek legal advise and file a formal complaint with
    the town if things are really out of line.....
    
    don't let 'em get away with any games.

    You may need to get a registered structural engineer to approve
    "your" way of doing it before you'll get very far.  If
    the inspector rejects something approved by an engineer, then you
    would probably be able to fight it and win.  But, if you don't 
    have engineering approval, I doubt that the state will listen to you.
    Even if you read in a book, "this is okay," the situation in the
    book is not THE particular floor and THE particular house the
    inspector is looking at.  YOU are not a structural engineer, and 
    I strongly  suspect that the state would give the benefit of the 
    doubt to the inspector.  As inspector, he's got more (theoretical) 
    credentials than you do, and that's who the state will listen to.  
    What you need to do is line up somebody with credentials on your 
    side of the argument.

    If the building inspector determines that the house is unsafe, per
    the building code, I beleive that he can have the house condemed.
    It matters not, when the violation occured.
    
    After purchasing my home I encountered major plumbing problems (Buyer
    beware???) and started court action against the seller.  I brought
    in the building inspector to verify my grievance and present his
    evidence to court.  After a brief inspection he found several violation
    to the building code (of a plumbing nature) and told me that, should
    I desire it, he could condem the house and the sale would be void.
    I checked and determined that he could do this.  I opted not to
    as I couldn't afford to loose the low interest rate that I was getting.
    
    So...  If he wants to be a pr_ck and desides that the spaceing of
    joists is unsafe (if it violates the building code he may have a
    case, as most of that code of safety related) he may be able to
    condem it untill it is corrected.
    
    Point is, know what your rights are, but don't p_ss him off needlessly.
    jim
    

    Re: structural engineer--
    
    Last weeks episode of This Old House (the renovation of part of
    a VERY old house) featured what was found when the ceiling beams
    were exposed.  They were drilled thru, cut & patched, etc. to the
    point of replacement.  Instead of simply replacing them, the 
    contractor brought in a structural engineer to tell him what he
    required.  I got then impression he had trouble in the past as
    he noted he always consults his engineer in these cases.
    
    He's just covering his a** (plus he wants to do it right), you might
    want to do the same.  Evaluate the pros & cons before you go after
    the inspector; ensure you're right, but be sure he's dead wrong.
    Unless the house is being fixed up to sell 'cause you're moving
    to another town.         
    
    							Don

    
    
    	That was the best "This Old House" in a long time. I'ts about
    time they worked on an OLD house instead of looking at new construction
    for $750,000 and Swedish sliding doors for $4,000. 
    	I think last weeks show had alittle of everyones problems that
    have been encountered or probably will.
    	I thought that was a major planning srew up on there part with that door
    only coming out to be 6' tall, and that was just the rough opening.
    Then again, I always run across something I didn't plan for so I
    could relate to there problem.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    By the time they're done with *this* old house, they will have spent
    $750,000.   They bought the house and approximately two acres for
    $250,000!.   From the remodeling they're doing, it's going to cost
    them a bundle...   No mention of a budget was made.   I'm not sure,
    but given the problems they're run into so far (one whole corner
    of the house is rotted away), a bulldozer might have been cheaper.

    Re. .6 The expense
    
    And they're doing it on a housing authority employee salary no less!
    I wonder if the house authority is hiring? :-) 

    RE: .6
    
    Time to audit the books I guess!

    Ah, New England in the '80s.  Land of the quarter million dollar
    fixer-upper.
    
    -joet

  Re: the last few

  "This Old House" and the people whose houses are shown don't seem to care
  much about money.  Does anyone remember the episodes about raising
  the roof and adding a floor to a ranch house (in NJ, I think).  At the
  end of the job we hear this conversation:

    Bob Vila: So, how much did the job cost as compared with the original
              estimate?

    Homeowners: The estimate was $40K and we spent $65K.

    Bob Vila:  Well, that's the way it goes sometimes.  We'll be back next
               week...

  [For TOH humor, this exchange ranked right up there with the time that
  Bob Vila showed up with a 13-oz. hammer to help Norm the Carpenter do
  some framing...]

  JP

    I propose that "This Old House" deserves a seperate note in this
    file!  How about "This Old House Review/Critique"?  It has turned
    into the "Norm and Bob Chit Chat".  Useful DIY info is hard to find
    on that show these days.
    
    Bob Vila's favorite line: "Remember you've got to keep the work
			       site clean."
    
    I'm ready to re-use my TOH tapes on something more useful, like
    ALF!
    
    Phil

    This Old House already has a topic:  #17...

    
    It also looks like Norm has been pounding down a few too many
    Budweisers lately, he's developed quite a girth in the mid-section!!!
    
    
    :)
    

    RE: .13
    
    Ya, I noticed that too!  Maybe that's part of being a "master
    carpenter".  I know I wouldn't want to be on the same platform with
    him!

    
    I'm waiting for Norm to frame himself into a spot he can't get out
    of. Then you'll hear Bob say, "That's all the time we have for this
    week. We'll be back next week when we'll learn how to install a
    garage door on the interior wall of this 1785 colonial to get ol'
    Norm out." Then Norm will say, as they fade to the Owen's insulation
    plug, "Someone want to hand me that circular saw over there"
    Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    	I use to live in the same neighborhood as Norm. I only spoke
    to him once at a neighborhood meeting and got the impression that
    he takes the show about as seriously as you folks do.
    
    					...Dave
    

>       Then you'll hear Bob say, "That's all the time we have for this
>    week...    

Nah, Bob will say the same thing he always says -- like when the guy 
trashed his sun room by tearing the roof off the night before the big 
rain storm, or when the (same) guy drove the nail through the water 
pipe, or even during the current show when the yuppies found out the 
whole wing of the house was rotting off -- "Gee, that's too bad."

Re: last few

If you worked with Bob, you'd start sucking down the beer too.  Did
you see the installment of the Bob & Norm Show where the dialog went
something like: 

	Bob: Well there you see how easy it is...
	Norm: You need another nail in that corner, Bob.
	Bob: ...Next week we'll see how to <blather, blather>...
	Norm: Bob, you need another nail in that corner.
	Bob: ...So we'll see you next week on 'This Old House.'
	Norm: *BOB*...
	[Music plays, credits roll]
					>>>==>PStJTT	

    
    
    	Bob: Norm can't  we use one piece of 14/2 to run electricity
    	     out to the 10 room addition with woodshop in the basement?
    
    	Norm: Err Bob, I don't think that will meet the code requirements
    
    	Bob: Code? That never stopped us before !
    
    

I've also noticed the owner of the current "project" has been giving
Norm and Bob (Especially) the old "evil Eye" from time to time.  On the
subject of "how much it cost?", I don't recall the show mentioning how
much that "vacation home" out in Brimfield,Mass. cost, on last season's
show.

    OK, I'll throw in my favorite.
    
    Several houses ago they were putting cedar shingles on a new addition.
    The first part of the show consisted of Norm teaching Bob how to
    shingle.  (Norm: "No Bob, you've got a seam over a seam!").
    
    The second part of the show consisted of Bob teaching the wife how
    to shingle.  In what I considered a snooty, condescending tone for
    one didn't know how to shingle hours before.
    
    My guess is that Norm's belly-ed up because of all the labor saving
    devices he uses now. (and everybody else that's doing the work while
    he and Bob stroke each other!)

    How about the one in the current set (at the end) when Bob and Norm
    tell the Yuppie Home Owner (YHO) that he should stick it out, tear down
    some more boards, get the field stones out, stack scrap in the
    dumpster, etc.   He's supposed to do all of this before morning, and
    stick it out because he's living a few blocks away, and Bob and Norm
    have a two hour commute.   Then, Bob invites Norm down the street
    for a cold one!

    I'd pay money to see the outtakes from that show!  I read in 
    Popular Science an account of Bob Vila and homeowner removing
    a section of roof for a new dormer.  Rather than take it piecemeal
    Bob suggests they cut it out whole like a slice of pizza.  Cameras
    were rolling when an uncut shingle hinged the whole piece to
    swing right thru the picture window on the floor below.  
    
    Bob: "Uh, that's how it goes sometimes."
    Norm: "Hey, whaddayasay we go pound a few cold ones?"

    Gee, maybe Norm really IS a master carpenter.  (As has been noted
    before, "master" has no current meaning outside the trades still
    run like trades (electric, plumbing)).

    I conclude this because the biggest pot belly I ever heard of was
    on a master plumber whose work day consisted sitting in one spot
    yelling to his apprentices and journeymen to do all the work, including
    running out for his lunch and 3-per-day snack.
        
    

    
    re. .22
    
    
    Ha!!!!!  Priceless!!!  A TOH outtake episode would be great...
    
    Who'll volunteer to write to Channel 2 Boston 02134 to make the
    suggestion???
    
    

re: last bunch

Geez, lighten up folks. TOH is entertainment. Do you want it narrated 
by William F. Buckley and Walter Cronkite? 

I like it because it shows me what I could do with an unlimited 
budget for design and materials, $6 million worth of tools in my 
perpetually new Ford F250 pick-up, and with every tradesman within 150 
miles drooling to work on my house.

However, the if the Globe runs a headline "Prominent Home Repair Show
Host Found with Framing Hammer Buried in Skull," the list of suspects
would be long. I'm afraid for Norm's health: lately he's been wheezing
like a leaky steam pipe. 

John H.

    I admit I watch the show for purely entertainment not educational
    reasons.  I have always enjoyed Norm....
    
    This season has shown norm in 2 very amusing shots.  On the first
    show of the season I was astonished at the weight he had put on
    and think the camera men were being funny as they followed
    him UP the ladder with the lens "centered" on him as he jiggled
    up.
    
    2) I think it was the second show as they were fading to the credits.
       They were pulling down the wall of the building and Norm had
       hold of the rope and the wall came down and so did Norm....
    

    You guys are great !  I haven't read HOME_WORK for two weeks, so
    I am catching up tonight.  Along comes note 1689 - Bureaucratic
    inspectors; this should be a good one.  Well, after reading the
    replies, I can honestly say I have not laughed so hard in weeks !!!
    
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

    hey, did any of you remember reading about 3-4 mos ago, big bobby
    got in trouble for building a penthouse on top of a building in
    boston?  I really don't remember the gory details but it was halarious
    

    If anyone's still interested, the yuppie farmhouse renovations were
    budgeted at $100K and came in at almost $200K...
    
    Bob said it was the homeowner's fault... "The sweat equity just
    wasn't there..."
    
    Have the ever come in *under budget*? Of course, in all fairness,
    does *any* home repair come in under budget?
    
    Edd

We are having an addition built consisting of a garage with a family room
above. The family room has a cathedral ceiling. Our contractor submitted the
plans and received the permit before starting construction. Shortly afterwards
the town (Westford, MA) got a new building inspector. This new one in the short
time that he has been here has acquired a reputation of failing everything, and
sure enough at the inspection at the end of framing he failed the construction
because the ceiling does not have a central beam across the roof. I will be
posing the structural question in the next topic, but for this topic I would
like your advice on the permit issue. Since a permit was issued to the plan,
and the room has been built strictly to that plan, can this inspector fail it.
I view it that we have a contract with the building inspector of Westford and
have fulfilled that contract. The fact that the inspector has changed is
immaterial.

Tim

  Interesting, this is the second case I've heard of a rejection of a
  cathedral ceiling for this same reason. The other was a friend's house
  in Townsend over a year ago. Maybe the guy moved from Townsend to
  Westford?

  In any case, assuming your original plan turns out to conform to
  building code and sensible building practise, you still might not want
  to fight it, because once you do, this particular inspector will
  probably reject every possible detail he can for the remainder of the
  project, as well as foot-dragging on items he can't possibly reject.
  Unless you're motivated to take your case through all the legal steps
  at your disposal (and possibly have to deal with the rest of town
  government as well), it might be a better idea to just let his
  requirements stand. This is one case where it may not be worth being
  right.

  But, personally, if this is the same sort of guy as the Townsend
  inspector, I'd love to hear that his ass got fried if he's being
  unreasonable.

    Before getting aggressive, go speak to the building inspector and ask
    what sort of structural reinforcement is necessary for a cathedral
    ceiling.  The inspector may not wish to give you details (that would be
    sticking his neck out), but should at least be willing to tell you
    whether or not an adequate solution exists.
    
    If you used an architect, you should first check with the architect to
    review the plans and the actual construction, to make sure they really
    are up to code.  If you can get a registered architect to assert that
    the plans and construction are sound, there's a reasonable chance that
    the building inspector will agree.
    
       Gary

  Right. If it turns out that your original plan either violates code or
  would be risky, then there's no reason you'd want to fight it. Only if
  you were able to determine that it's perfectly reasonable, and the
  inspector still rejects the opinion of a certified expert, would you
  be in a position to consider a fight.

    Another option is to seek the services of a structural engineer. When
    plans are in question this is who the archictects turn to.
    
      rgds/bob
    
    

All is resolved now. Our contractor saw an architect who said that the design
was easily strong enough. He suggested that to avoid the builing inspector 
losing too much face the ceiling ties should be bolted to the roof, rather than
just nailed. This was done, with the other minor points that the inspector 
required and he signed it off yesterday.

Yesterday we also received the letter from the inspector listing the original
reasons for failing it. It is interesting that for 2 of the three items (the
new flooring was too close to the back of the existing chimney and sheet rock
around the heating ducts) he quoted chapter and verse of the buidling code, but
for the beam he just said to install a beam.  

Lets hope that there are no problems with the final inspections.

Tim

< Note 3420.6 by TRITON::FERREIRA >
                     -< Westford B.I. less than friendly >-

	I've also had a confrontation with the Westford Building Inspector.
	He wants me to change several aspects of our deck construction,
	a different note....

	The new Westford Building Inspector, Leo Daily, has made very
	few if any friends in Westford, including most of the other
	sub-inspectors in town, they won't publicly bad mouth him but
	will tell you that he is "Strickly by the book no exceptions."
		He's only on board for a six month trial.  Was
		previously releaved of the same position in Lowell
		and Andover or North Andover gladly accepted his
		resignation.  Now if us Westfordites are lucky.....
	I had a "conversation" with him Thursday August 17th asking for
	a partial occupancy for our new house.  He doesn't do "partial
	occupancies" the work is either complete or incomplete and will
	NOT sign, in his interpretation he doesn't have to.  However,
	after I backed him into the corner, figuratively, and quoted the
	code word for word..... he said he still wouldn't sign but would
	not do anything to stop me from living in the house.  This being
	said before 2 non-interested parties, I said thank you, turned
	my back to him at my doorway and walked away with my surpressed
	anger.  My family and I are living there, don't have an occupancy,
	and hope not to get a tax bill.  Buy the way the framing inspection
	was approved by the former inspector and we have the signatures of
	the gas, plumbing, fire and board of health.   Though not "complete"
	is in fine livable condition.  The carpeting and hardwood flooring
	can wait a month or two.

Good Luck
Frank

    One would certainly hope you are making your feelings known to the
    powers that be during this trial period..
    
    ...tom

	I shall make my feeling known and hope others will also.
	However, for the time being I need to make my family a
	comfortable home.  It should be noted, before anyone goes
	a-shouting, this B.I. is related via marriage to one of
	the Town Selectman.  This may or may not have any weight,
	hopefully not, but in my position it's better to get my
	Occupancy Permit before making any big waves.  He's in
	the battleship while I'm paddling a canoe.
		His day will come.

  Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between someone who's
  genuinely interested in safety, and someone who's out to show "who's
  in charge". Be sure you've got the right one before you put on the
  gloves. 

  The resolution described in .5 is an outstanding example of how to get
  what you want and also avoid an expensive confrontation. Everyone was
  a winner. Well done!

    While this is of no particular help now, I was just told by my
    parents of a friend of theirs that is conpleting the second part of a
    two part addition.  The project was a phased approach, so that the
    first phase could be done, and then the second room added at a later
    date.  Well, they just put the second room on and the BI told them that
    the electrical system was completely screwed up and that it would have
    to be redone, and that he would never let anything like this get
    through.  The builder said nothing was wrong, the BI was just bing an
    A.H. and might have been looking for a little under the table.  My parent's
    friend pulled out the plans and showed the BI where he had approved the 
    installation and SIGNED IT four years ago.  The quote was that he put
    his tail between his legs and got out of there.  After he approved
    everything.
    
    Ken 

I'm certainly not an authority on this, but if it were me, I'd be *VERY* sure
that the lack of an occupancy permit doesn't affect my insurance company's
willingness to pay in the event of a fire, storm, or whatever might happen.

Our contractor submitted the plans and received the permit before starting 
construction. Shortly afterwards the town (Westford, MA) got a new building 
inspector and sure enough at the inspection at the end of framing he failed 
the construction because the ceiling does not have a central beam across the 
roof. 

***************************************************************************

Tim,

I'm presently the plaintiff in Hyde vs Martel, a lawsuit in Hillsborough 
County (NH) Superior Court over a chimney that didn't meet building 
codes.  At one point the building inspector said it was OK then changed 
his mind after a subsequent inspection.  The defendant has tried to shift 
liability to the building inspector, claiming that he should have caught 
it the first time.  This has not been ruled, but an attorney who has 
been advising me on NH law specifically said the building inspector is 
only liable for the work done after his original approval, not on the 
work done before his original approval.  

The one case where this attorney (NH) said the building inspector would 
have been liable would be if he had approved the plans and the chimney 
had been built according to those plans.  I'm glad to see that the 
building inspector in your case has now approved it.  I hope his approval 
is because it is truly safe and not just to save face.

Disclaimers:

  I'm not an attorney.

  This advice was from a NH attorney regarding my case.

  My case is a strange one.  The town adopted building codes just 
  before I obtained the building permit and hired its first building 
  inspector almost 6 months later and he relied upon the mason's 
  statements during the first inspection.

  The Hyde vs Martel case has not been ruled.  It's in binding 
  arbitration for an out of court settlement.


                                  Kurt

    This seems like the most appropriate place (vs contracting...) so here goes..
    When you re having a house built, what would be the minimum requirements
    for getting a certificate of occupancy?  In general terms that is - I
     would like to finish as much of the house my self, but with out the hassles
    of inspections, etc. to tie us up.  for eg-  could you leave 4 of 6 baths  
    unfinished ( rough in/walled, etc)  what about family rooms? ( Since there
    will probably be a large *experienced* crew available and we also want to be
    able to move in, what could be done to do such? Thanks for replies.
   
    Mr. Moderator:feel free to move this to an appropriate place if necessary.

Try note 2609, titled "Occupancy Permits"

Paul
[Moderator]

    One more recommendation for Gil Brust (probe home inspectors). a SIX
    hour inspection that went through every nook and cranny of the house.
    He also gave me names of a well (cliff cummings) and septic guy
    (defours out of littleton) to do those inspections. Both were quality
    people - and none had much love for realtors, as you would expect.