Conference 7.286::home_work

       From what I've heard.... Banks don't usually lend money for land.
    They will let you use it's value  be  used as  a down  payment  when
    it's time for building. That's why  when  you  see  an  ad for  land
    for sale.... it usually mentions something about owner financing.
    The banks look at land as a "bad risk". I am sure someone out there
    in this conference has had some experiance with this...no? 

    Land loans CAN be had... But they are EXPENSIVE (more on the order
    of construction finanacing than an owner-occupied mortgage).  Further,
    if you own the land outright when you decide to build, the bank giving
    you a motgage will probably only allow you to count some percentage of
    the value of the land (typically only 50%) as part of your down payment.

    In buying land, consider:
    
    	a. Access.  Is there frontage on a town/county maintained road??
    	   BE SURE TO CHECK.  Just because there's a road there, doesn't
    	   mean it's a "real" (i.e. official) road.
    
    	b. Water.  You don't want to have to put in a 200 foot well.
    
    	c. Zoning, or lack thereof.  Will somebody build a hazardous
    	   waste treatment facility (or a auto body shop, or dog kennel)
    	   next to your property?
    
    	d. Terrain and soil composition.  If you're planning on being
     	   being able to build on it at a future time, make sure that
    	   you could put in a foundation without calling a blasting
     	   crew.

    Typically banks will give you a construction loan to buy land, but
    a construction loan is usually converted to a conventional mortgage
    within 4-6 months.  That means you must be planning to construct
    a home on the premises in that period of time.  You can't just hold
    it for an investment.  Construction loans are currently running
    about 12-13%, but you just pay interest, no principal repayment.
    
    Best bet would be to get owner financing or take a second mortgage
    on an existing home to pay for the land (if possible).
    
    -al

And don't forget permits.  If I were buying land I would at least make a
contingency that the land perks AND that the cost of a secptic system would
be in some reasonable range (like around 5K).  I've heard horror stories
about people buying land that wasn't buildable because it wouldn't perk OR
it would perk but their septic system would cost over 20K to put it.

The same holds true with driveways.  It's possible to spend a fortune on one.

Costs for driveways, septic systems, foundations, etc could easily be determined
before you sign on the dotted line.  If the owner isn't willing to allow this, I
wouldn't feel comfortable doing business with them.

-mark

I entered most of this in a response back in the Tools file before HOME_WORK
got started.  I think I've entered part of it here, too, but I don;t know 
where.  Anyway...

There are tons of different ways to go about finding land, and it pays to 
examine them all.  The obvious place to start is with a real estate agency.  One
thing that we found was that to see all the land, you really have to go to all 
of the agencies.  They try to make you feel guilty if you do this, but ignore 
them.  They will have a lot of listings in common, but we found that each agency
would have a few pieces that none of the others would have.  And if you know 
what you want, it can take a while to find the right piece.  

Generally it is 'luck of the draw' as to what agent you get when you walk into 
an agency.  Instead of just taking the first agent who comes up, ask for the 
person who knows most about land (as opposed to houses), we found that most 
agencies have someone who specializes in that.  Also, don't let them make you 
feel guilty for asking to deal with another agent if the one you drew first is a
real bimbo.  That happened to us at the biggest agency in town - the guy we got
first, I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him, and he must have weighed in
at 300 lbs.

There are other ways too.  Go around to local banks and ask if they have any
recently foreclosed land.  You can get great deals this way.  Be bold.  If you
see a piece that is jut perfect, but it's not for sale, go to the town hall, get
the address of the owner, and write them a letter.  This doesn't work too often,
but all you've lost is $.22, and you have a chance of getting 'the perfect lot.'

The one other thing to consider (heavily) are site costs.  There was one piece
that we looked at that was just gorgeous.  5 acres up on a hill(in NH), 
hardwoods, mountain laurel growing everywhere like weeds, great neighborhood,
great town; in all, just about perfect.  But consider these mathematics:


Item		Laurel Hill			 Marblehead Rd 
					       	(what we bought)

Driveway	400 ft through trees,		already there,
		over hills		$5000	put down gravel		$500

Well		High on a hill, average		Dug well, 18ft		$1100
		neighbors 350ft		$4-7000

Foundation	Blasting necessary     $5-10000 1 day, small dozer	$500

Septic		Massive amounts of 		fill needed, but
		fill needed	       $8-12000 available on land	$6000

Total				    $22-34,000				$8100

Moral: site costs can kill you.  It is not difficult to spend over $20,000 
before you build a thing.  Do you like those birch trees $20,000 worth?  

Be careful with perc tests.  Don't just accept that "It's been perc'ed".  The
test may have been done far from where you would want it, and it may be the only
place on the land that will get an OK perc.  Also check with the town.  In NH,
you could legally build a septic system on a granite slab if you were willing to
pay for 10ft of fill.  But in the town of Hollis (NH) you must have 4 ft of 
existing soil to be able to put one in.  The real estate agents won't tell you 
any of this.  Also, when you get someone in there to do a perc test, have them 
dig a hole where you want the house also.  Blasting is Big Bucks.




Many banks do lend money on land, but most of them require a 50% down payment 
(the lowest we saw was 25%), and they are shorter term - 12 years is the 
longest that we found.  Some banks will be shorter.  Also, to get a 
construction loan, most banks require that you own the land outright before 
they will give you any money.  Their reasoning behind all this is that land and 
partially finished houses are much more difficult to dispose of than finished 
housing, so they have to cover themselves.

Paul

    From my experiences with trying to buy land, if you see a piece
    of land in the Multiple Listing Service or with a Realtor, it is
    usually very expensive or it is no good.
    
    Most realtors will admit that all of the good land is quickly bought
    up by builders and developers.  The reason is that they can pay
    *CASH* on the spot for the land and the seller does not have to
    worry about financing contingencies.  So the majority of land listed
    either requires inordinate amounts of site work or they are sellers
    testing the market with outrageously priced land.
    
    I also found out that if the land is a good deal, it will be bought
    by the realtor way before it would ever be listed.
    
    About writing letters to the owners of land; realtors also write
    letters constantly to land owners (usually farmers in New England)
    asking them if they would like to sell.  Some eventually break down
    and sell, but some people get really irate.  So be forewarned...
    
    -al

    There are many dimensions involved in evaluating and buying land,
    and on the whole it boils down to what you really want.
    
    First of all, there just isn't much on the market these days, and
    most of what's there (at least within semi-reasonable commuting
    distance of industrial areas) is kind of blah.  Let's face it:
    the really nice pieces were scooped up years ago, for the most part.
    
    Of what does come onto the market, some is grabbed immediately by
    developers (often without hitting the papers or even a real estate
    agent if they approached the owner directly).  Fortunately, the
    economics of development tends to bias them not toward the choicest
    pieces, but to those that can be built upon at lowest cost and can
    accommodate multiple housing units.
    
    That leaves smaller and/or more "interesting" (potentially difficult)
    and/or more remote pieces.  While at the moment even such land commands
    ridiculous prices, it's what we usually have to choose from (unless
    we ourselves start beating the owner bushes for smallish sections
    they might be willing to part with - I haven't tried this, but would
    if I were still looking).
    
    An extra $10,000 - $15,000 for driveways, septic system, etc. isn't
    a total waste if the piece is otherwise very close to what you want.
    Chances are it will also be attractive to others, so if/when you
    get around to selling it at least some fraction of the added expense
    will come back to you.  Meanwhile, you may be in a position to write
    it off against a capital gain from your previous residence that
    would otherwise be taxable.  At the very least, you'll have the
    satisfaction of living on land that you like - and isn't that one
    of the main reasons for building in the first place?
    
    As for realtors scooping up all the good pieces themselves, I don't
    believe it's quite the case.  What DOES happen is that realtors
    often do beat the owner bushes themselves, and therefore have quite
    a bit of advance notice about some pieces soon to hit the papers.
    
    If you're willing to take the time to establish on-going relationships
    with the realtors in the areas you're interested in, then you can
    get in on this advance notice and be one of the first in line when
    the land really becomes available.  Be prepared for significant
    delays over the date the realtor predicts - things often move a
    lot more slowly than expected.  This doesn't of course guarantee
    you the land, but at least it puts you on a par with all the
    realtor's acquaintances (it's amazing how many they have when the
    market is tight).
    
    With the market as it is, haggling won't cut it.  Know how to
    evaluate how much a piece is worth to you, and if the asking price
    is close to that value just be thankful and pay it (someone else
    will if you don't, and soon - and if you wait at all, there's the
    possibility of getting into a bidding war at yet higher prices).
    
    It just ain't easy:  it requires some commitment to developing a
    reasonable understanding of land, what it's worth, and how it's
    sold.  But it's kind of fun.
    					- Bill
    

    
    Thank you all.  This is excellent information. Just what I was looking
    for.  I'm going to start investigating land auctions as well.  Although
    I suppose this can be risky if you don't know exactly what you want
    and the relative value of properties.
    
    Fern
    

    Hi Fern,
    
    	I've been there too. Been looking since last October and still
    don't own yet, but I'm close.
    
    	I have found that the best source for information on available
    lots is to attend the planning board meetings in the town(s) you
    are interested in. Every piece of land which is approved for building
    has to go through the planning board so you'll see them all eventually.
    Just have to give up the time and sit through a lot of boring
    discussions. The other payoff is that you get to know the town,
    it's officials, and the best way to get around the red tape.
    
    	I will also second the cautions about finding out about perc
    rates, septic designs, deep hole tests, driveway costs, town road
    access, etc.
    

	This isn't the typical HOME_WORK question but this file seems like the
best place for it.

	My neighbor wants to sell part of his backyard and has asked if I'm 
interested in buying it.  Our lots are shaped somewhat like this:


	 ________________________________________________
	|			|			 |
	|			|  Part he wants to sell |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			| _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _ |
	|			| 			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|  My Lot		|  His Lot		 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	|			|			 |
	 -----------------------------------------------
	

	
The lots are about 200' X 100' and the part he wants to sell is about 75' wide.
I'm considering buying it because the plot he wants to sell is large enough so 
that it would be a useful part of my yard and it's a nicely wooded piece of 
property.  I'd like to keep it that way rather than see someone else clear it.
Does anyone know what a piece of land like this may be worth (I live in 
Nashua)?  Would such an odd shaped lot add anything to the overall value of my 
house?  Would it take away from the value?  Are there any drawbacks or things 
that I should watch out for?

Thanks, in advance, for the advice.

    I'm not familiar with lot prices,but it certainly should increase
    the resale value of your property,for most buyers the amount of
    yard is an important factor(it is for me,anyway). If the land
    were to be cleared,it sounds like it would make a nice spot for
    croquet,voleyball,bocche(sp) or whatever. One thing I would do
    is to offer to split the cost for a tape survey(most towns
    won't accept a survey over 6 months old). Depending on how long
    ago one was done,might turn up that either you or your neighbor
    owns more or less than you think.
    
    	Steve
    
    

	I bought my house a little over a year ago.  He's been there for about
20 years but had a survey done 10 yrs. ago when he put in a pool.  So the 
property lines are pretty accurate.  Even so I imagine to split the lots, 
another survey would have to be done and he's already agreed to spilt the cost.

	The back of both our lots is wooded which acts as a nice privacy fence
so I'd clear out the brush but the trees would stay, most of them anyway.  

George

In addition to increasing the resale value (.1), the expansion will also 
increase your property tax.

[I have the dubious honor of having the largest piece of land in my (suburban) 
neighborhood -- just over an acre. About �th is lawn, �th is steep, forrested 
hill (more or less useless), the rest is flat forest (over the top of the hill)
. It has one redeeming value -- nobody is going to build a house anywhere in 
sight in back of  my place. Aside from this, it's only useful to the Tax Man]

-Scott

Is the part he wants to sell big enough to build (legally, of course)
on?  If not, then you (or some other abutting neighbor) are the only
ones likely to be interested.  If it is a legal house lot, then you
might want to buy it to keep someone else from building on it.

To buy it just for the pleasure of owning it might be an expensive 
proposition.  As Scott says (Hi Scott...) the taxman will take a
bite.  Don't know how it works in Nashua, but in some towns a tax
reappraisal means that they reappraise the *entire* property -- they
may not just tack on the purchase price to your present market value.

So, if you're trying to keep a building off that lot, fine -- you may
find that protection worth the money.  But all the other reasons for
owning it apply to your neighbor as well, don't they?  So why does he
want to sell?

JP

    I don't know about Nashua, but here in Amherst I could not just
    hack off a piece of my lot and sell it to a neighbor.  I'm already
    under the legal lot size of 2 acres since the house was built
    before the ordinance was instituted.  But I doubt that I would be
    allowed to decrease my lot further.  I assume all such issues would
    be addressed before money crossed hands.

Thanks for the responses so far.

	The tax aspect has occurred to me.  It's one of the things that I'm 
going to see if I can get an answer to out of someone in city hall.  The 
reason he wants to sell is to lessen his taxes.  The property is wooded and
filled with brush and he's not the type to clean it up.  As far as he's 
concerned he's paying taxes on a useless piece of property.  I, on the other
hand, am the type to clean it up and use it to put up a utility shed and make 
it a generally nice place to sit and enjoy the shade.
	It's not big enough to be a buildable lot.  The only other neighbor 
that would be interested in it would probably clear it to enlarge his 
relatively small backyard.  If that happens I think it would definitely take
away from the attractiveness of the property.

re .5	The lot size question didn't occur to me. Thanks.  Guess I'll see if
I can find out about that at city hall also.

George

Sounds to me like if the other abutter would buy and clear the land, it would
have a definate impact on the appearance of YOUR property.  Furthermore, if
you can use the space I'd say go for it (assuming the price tag isn't TOO 
steep).  I wouldn't necessarily assume that what you pay for it would increase
your own value by the same amount, though.

Finally, are the taxes that high on land?  I know in Taxachusetts the main chunk
of property taxes is based on the value of your home rather than the land.  I
wouldn't think adding a piece to you land would increase you taxes by that much.

-mark

It seems as if this would be considered a subdivision of your neighbor's land
(I don't know if the fact that the lot is not large enough to make a building
lot changes things); if so, it is illegal to sell a subdivided piece of land
before the subdivision is approved by the planning board (misdemeanor for
an individual, felony for a corporation).  (I found this out recently when
I was talking with my lawyer about subdividing my land.)

Kirk

Try to determine how much the land would add to the value of your 
house by checking out prices of comparable houses in your area 
with your current size lot and a larger lot.  Then figure it's 
probably worth your while to spend half that.

It sounds like your neighbor basically wants to get some cash.  
And maybe he likes what you've done with your yard and feels that 
if you do the same thing to his back forty, he comes out ahead.

The other thing to think about is how you'd feel if the other guy 
bought it and you had two neighbors on that side rather than one. 
And then decide if that would lower your property value by more 
than you'd have to spend to buy the piece.  

Let us know what happens.

  I used to be on the local Planning Board.  I have also attended
  a seminar on "subdivision control".  Even though your neighbor
  is "subdividing" is lot, it is not considered a subdivision (at
  least not in Mass, as long as the resulting lot has frontage
  on an existing road (among other things)).
  
  I own property in 3 Massachusetts towns and my experience has
  been that for tax assesement purposes, they usually split the
  house/land at approx  88%/12% (give or take some) on "development"
  size lots.
  
  The problem you may encounter however is that of your neighbor
  creating a non-conforming lot size. I.e., after he cuts off the
  part that he wishes to sell to you, the resulting piece left
  over *MUST* conform to the *CURRENT* lot size restrictions. 
  For example, if your city requires 10,000 s.f. lot sizes and
  your neighbors lot will be reduced to less than that--forget
  it!  He may appeal to the ZBA for a variance, however.
  
  All this holds true for Mass, and I would suspect it to be somewhat
  similar in N.H.
  

    I've looked thru most of the topics here and I could'nt find one
    that might answer my question so here I go:
    
    We've decided to buy some land to build on at some point in the
    future, probably 5-10 years down the line.
    We've seen some nice pieces, well they seemed fine to me, but I
    honestly don't know exactly what to look for in raw land.
    A few of the basics I understand, such as frontage, exposure,
    standing water, perk test, etc.
    I'm afraid I'll buy a piece that will be unbuildable for some
    reason I was'nt aware of at the time. 
    What should I look for other than the obvious?
    Should I have a "professional whatever" assist me?
    Is there any good literature on this subject?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    

    One of the things you should look for are things listed under
    the category of site prep.  These things are not always obvious.
    
    1) Cost of clearing and excavation.  If you hit ledge, blasting
       can be expensive.  If there's clay, you'll need extra fill.
    
    2) Cost of bringing utilities (electric, phone, gas, water, sewer)
       to the site.  If you have to start paying for telephone poles...
    
    3) Cost of septic system if no sewer is available
    
    4) Cost of a well if no public water is available
    
    5) Cost of engineering and surveys
    
    6) Cost of having a paved driveway.  If your house is set back from
       the front, this could get expensive.
    
    7) Cost of carrying the land for 5-10 years.  The land won't generate
       any income for you and will be a continuous drain on your funds
       (i.e. taxes, payments)
    
    8) Most permits and the like expire with time, so you will probably
       have to have all of your tests (perc, deep hole) re-done.
    
    Get a US Geological Survey Map and see everything that's around you
    in terms of contours, wetlands, existing structures, etc.  What
    locale are you in?  If you're in Mass or NH (anywhere near DEC),
    chances are that if you find a piece of land for sale, then there's
    some good reason why a builder or developer didn't buy it.

Try note 357, and try looking in the 4394::TOOLS notesfile for a note titled
"Am I crazy to do this?" KP7, etc

Paul

    566.* got me interested in this topic, when I followed the pointer
    to this entry it seemed more appropriate for my comments...
    
    first, .9 recommends sitting in on planning board meetings, that will
    get you familar with local activity and process but may not include
    anything about costs or values, and it also is at the point in the
    process where building approvals are obtained.  So if you then go
    after any of the lots that came up before the board, they will be
    more expensive, and quite probably already in the hands of a developer
    (or at least an owner expecting to realize high value).  You might
    be better off finding land that can be approved but hasn't yet been
    through the bureaucratic process - if you are confident that you
    can navigate the redtape channels without unpleasant surprises then
    you might realize considerable savings!
    
    A friend who built recently in MA reported discovering that all
    the available land has been bought up by builders who are willing
    to sell only if they also do the building.  I suppose this might
    be acceptable to some people, but I like to have more flexibility
    than this would seem to offer...
    
    Personally, I bought land well away from the urban blight, two years
    ago.  It's sufficiently far out (1 hr drive time to ZKO) that the
    town has little bureaucracy, no planning board approval required,
    only the state septic regs, no occupancy permit (that one flustered
    DCU when we applied for refinancing!) - and considerably lower costs!
    Depends on your own values, if you're willing to go farther out
    there's a whole different ball game than if you're trying to compete
    with the developers (or buy from them) in the more populated areas.
    
    Apart from process issues, check the land itself out carefully.
    I bought from a friend who thus became also a neighbor (read, credible
    source of local info), and had some insight into local terrain,
    wells, etc.  I also walked the land extensively before buying it,
    examining potential sites and problems.  Result: our septic designer
    started out disliking our site choice (too far from the town road)
    but ended up recommending it as the best site for a leach field.
    Well came in at 50+ gpm (without hydro-fracking!).  We have a long
    driveway, trades off convenience for privacy plus a view plus an
    idyllic site...
    
    Best advice, know what you want first, than make sure you know enough
    to recognize it when you see and to identify possible problems with
    it (either in anticipation or when you see them).  Walk the land,
    look for key signs (rounded contours may be boulders or ledge below
    a thin layer of leaves or loam, heavy fern growth indicates ground
    water nearby, angular surface rocks come from nearby/shallow ledge
    while rounded boulders were deposited by water or glaciers, etc.)
    and don't let wishful optimism obscure hard reality.  Paul's worksheet
    on cost comparision was a good point, but if you decide you can
    afford it and want to spend on it, that may be the right choice
    for you - if you decide up front rather than getting surprised...
    
    And, GOOD LUCK!
   

    re .1
    I'm aware of most of the items you mentioned. I'm only looking at
    land that is on a class 5 road or better, so in 99% of the time
    phone and elec. are available.
    As for carrying the land that long, I looked at land 3 years ago
    in that same area and equivilant pieces are now 40 - 50% higher.
    Land used to be a bad investment, not any more from what I've seen
    
    I'm looking in the Concord NH suburbs btw.
    
    John
    

	There's a pretty good book on the subject called "Finding
	and Buying your place int the Country".  I can't recall the
	author's name, but I remember he was a lawyer that specialized
	in Real Estate.  If you want I can dig the book out and get
	you the author/publisher, etc.

	-gary

I have a question about how land is surveyed.

Suppose I have land that extends 300' back from a road. Suppose
the land is irregular. Does the 300' follow the contour of the land or 
is it on a straight line? I'll try "drawing it:


    |<start measuring here
road                          |<--300' "as crow flies" ends here.
xxxx_____             ___________
         \           /
          \         /|<--300' "paced off" ends here.
           \       /
            \_____/

Which 300' mark would indicate where the land ends?

John H.

    I'll take a stab at this... I'm pretty sure that 300' marked off
    is "as the crow flies".
    
    -al

    Sometimes the "as the crow flies" applies and sometimes the paced
    off method applied. At least in my case the paced off method was
    used. Also arial photos are used. I own a piece of land here in
    Westfield that is part of Holyoke mt. The measurements for surveying
    were the paced measurments (they did use 500' tapes and a lazer transit.)
    If it was as the crow flies my line would be half way up the mountain.
    I know I own all the way to the top, i.e. half the mountain. Unless
    the "dip" are not too deep, it would be as the crow flies, A little
    hint: if it is being surveyed now have them check back into the
    records, alot of measurments were literally paced off. I gained
    22 acres, on a corrected site survey. (mucho more taxes though...)
    
    66 acres of trees .......all mine.
    
    Jim

    That's a good point.  I looked at a "wooded 10 acre lot" last winter
    that was 1/4 acre at the top of a hill, and 9 3/4 acres down the
    hillside.  I gazed up in wonder from the bottom of the ice-covered
    lane...
    
    Elaine
    

    Surveys lines, for boundary reasons, are suppose to be based on
    a level straight line. This distance should not be influenced by
    the contour of the land beneath the level, straight line. For
    calculating straight line distances over uneven ground you have
    to employ the old geometry formulas, Sin, Cos.,Tan. etc.
    
    Bill.

>    Surveys lines, for boundary reasons, are suppose to be based on
>    a level straight line. 

Not really.  There is no universally recognized standard for
measurement.  Here in New England, I've seen deeds that call out land
size by pacing, by landmark, by chain, and as you favor, by line of
sight.  The only way to get the right measurement is to look at the deed
and see what unit of measure it calls for.  All deeds that I've seen 
call out acrage with the words "more or less" to allow for inexact 
measure.  I've seen cases where the inexactitude amounted to over 100 
acres in a nominal 500 acre parcel.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    -.4 is correct.  I spoke to a surveyor last night.  Today, all
    land recording is supposed to be done on the horizontal axis.
    They might actually measure it by the contours , but they will then
    convert it to the horizontal component (sins, cosins). That is
    one reason sometimes for the descrepency between acerage on old
    deeds and new surveys.
    
    Also on very large parcels (100's of acres I suppose)  the 
    "Mass. Plane Coordinate" systems is used to compensate for
    the curvature of the earth. (wow).
    
    Soooo. if you have a mountainside of X acres, I guess you really
    do get more land than flat land of X acres.
    
    

                I'am in the process of buying 10 acres of land from
        a private individual and building a house on it. This land is
        one of the first Homesteads in the state of Colo from around
        1880. The original homestead log cabin is still standing and
    	I can get a tax break on any money spent fixing the cabin up.
    	It doesn't have a well but does have a small stream on it. 
    	What should I watch out for, and what needs to be done before 
    	the house is built. I.E. checking for Liens, soil samples, and 
    	any other problem I might run into purchasing this land from a 
    	private party since I'am not going through a Real Estate firm.
        Any and all input would greatly appreciated.
        

                                        Thanks In Advance
                                        Charlie

    	 Check with the historical society, Uncle Sam may have the right
    	of approval for any modifications to the property if it is an
     	historical landmark.
    
    	Glenn

Hire a lawyer who has experience with real estate in general and historic
properties in particular.  Trying to find all the legal gotchas by yourself 
(even with the help of NOTES conferences) is asking for trouble.

    Charlie, if this is east of town you may have some water problems
    as aquafer is already over loaded and drilling a well could be pretty
    expensive. Check with people already living in the area and see
    what they have to say about the water situation. Remember that streams
    dont run year around here and usualy the water rights to the stream
    are owned by someone I.E you can't tap it.
    
    -j
    

Try to keep the discussion here about the issues specifically regarding the 
fact that it's a homestead with the original cabin.

For discussion on general land issues, see notes 357, 433 and 566, found using 
directory note 1111.71 (REAL_ESTATE).

Paul
[Moderator]

    RE: .0
    
    	Check out the last issue of Old House Journal (not the current
    	one).  They did an article about some of the rules and regulations
    	(i.e., hoops) you need to follow to get the tax breaks.  As
    	I recall, while it didn't sound all the difficult, it did sound
    	like it could get to be a *lot* of paperwork.
    
    - Mark

disclaimer to moderators:
	I looked but couldn't find this topic discussed in any one place. 
Correct me and eliminate this topic if you see fit.



I am looking at buying some land and building a house. I am trying to calculate
the house/land/improvement budget. Can anyone out there in NOTES-land give me 
some idea of 1.)what estimates to make, 2.) how to make them?????  I am hoping 
to be able to look at a potential piece of land and be able to estimate what
it will cost me to develop it for a single family house in order to be able
to make an offer on that land.


	Assume a non-level wooded lot with some ledge. 

How do I estimate the cost of the driveway?  $/foot???
How do I estimate the cost of a well?
How do I estimate the cost of the foundation?
What if I have to blast away some ledge? cost/sq-ft????
How much will it cost to remove trees to build the house?
How much does a perc test cost?
How much do septic plans cost?
How much does a septic system cost? (assume 4 bedrooms)
How much for landscaping?
Are there any other costs that I missed here?


	thanks,
	Mark

There is some stuff in here about this, see notes 357 and 566, but they are 
concerned with many aspects of finding land, not just estimating, and 
estimating seems to be are reasonable subset.

Have at it.

Paul

re: last
	Thanks for the pointer but those topics don't quite cover what I am
 looking for. It is interesting to know what to look for in a piece of land as
discussed in those topics, but I am more interested in how to calculate the
costs of improving a lot.
	Say that you have a touch of insanity, and have fallen in love with a 
truly "*interesting*" lot of land. Let's say worst case, this lot has 
everything but a swamp on it. (ie:ledge, clay, distance from road, etc...)
How would you estimate the cost of putting everything including a foundation 
(but not including the actual house) onto the property?

	BTW in reading the other topics is discovered a few other cost 
questions:

	How many telephone poles are needed to access remote locations and how
much do they cost? (1 pole/100 ft?? $$??)

	How much would it cost to have burried power and telephone cables per 
100 feet?

	thanks,
	Mark

    Well you have questions covering several topics.  For instance, perc
    tests and spectic systems are often covered in the SEWAGE (1111.88)
    keyworded notes and may offer some additional information.  
    
    Driveway costs are sometimes mentioned in the DRIVEWAYS (1111.33)
    
    Cost of running power to remote sites is covered in ELECTRIC-MAIN
    (1111.34) specfically 1061.
    
    I think that some of what you want is here but not all in one place.
    I agree with Paul though, have at it.  It would be useful to have all
    this information in one place.

You should make any P&S agreements dependant upon the success of a perc. test.
The price of a system could vary quite a bit on whether something unusual must
be done to put a system in a given piece of land.  I've heard of people using
enormous amounts of fill in a spot to generate their own piece of land that
will perc.

Maybe you may want to do the same thing with a well once the septic system test
passes, but of course that means drilling a well on someone else's land and
then deciding whether to walk away if no luck or buying the land, drilling the
well on your land and taking the chance you'll come up dry.

I do know the cost of a well is highly dependant on how deep you must go before
you hit a suitable amount of water.

-Mike

    Regarding ledge, the test pit results will indicate when/if ledge
    is found. That, naturally, doesn't mean you won't find any when
    you dig the foundation. Since doing test pits are somewhat cheap
    (compared to blasting costs!), you could have a few done. This is
    fairly common when trying to get good perc results. It's still not
    a guarantee of ledge-free site work, but it's a little more peace
    of mind.
    As far as how much it would cost if you needed to blast, I have
    no idea, but I'm sure it varies directly with how much is there,
    and how much you need to move.
    
    John

Having just done a lot of what you want I can at least tell you how much
it cost me.  I dont remember the price per foot and prices vary ALOT so 
you may need to get many bids to obtain a reasonable price.

	Assume a non-level wooded lot with some ledge. 

>> How do I estimate the cost of the driveway?  $/foot???
We put in a 300' gravel driveway for around $2500-$3000

>> How do I estimate the cost of a well?
$7-$8/foot plus a pump.  Ours went to 500' and cost $5000.  
Figure at least $4000 and hope for the best.

>> How do I estimate the cost of the foundation?
The prices here seem to be consistent but again I dont remembe the
$/foot.   We had a 48x28 with a 16x24 ell and it ran us about $8000 
including the slab.

The excavation of the foundation hole, the driveway, the septic system
and tree clearing came as one package and came to a total of about
$18000.
We had to do a lot of blasting and it cost us $3500.  Unless you
have to blast everything you can figure less than this.

>> What if I have to blast away some ledge? cost/sq-ft????
See above.

>> How much will it cost to remove trees to build the house?
Part of the package but probably a small fraction of the cost.

>>How much does a perc test cost?
I think you can put a septic system almost anywhere these days but
you probably want to buy the land contingent on a successful perc test?
Anyway I think the perc test will cost in the low hundreds $200-$500.
depends on how many times they have to dig a hole with a back hoe
>>How much do septic plans cost?
$500 or more (I think)

>>How much does a septic system cost? (assume 4 bedrooms)
This really depends on your land.  Septics can range from as
low as $5000 to $15000 (more or less)

>>How much for landscaping?
Again it depends on how fancy you get.  These guys are not
cheap.  They did final grading.  4" loam.  Some granite steps and
it ran me close to $4000.

>>Are there any other costs that I missed here?
I think you got most of it but theres always something else.

Good Luck,
	Larry Cohen

    I did all this for a relatively small (36x22 foundation) place.
    
    This was in the boondocks in Maine so the prices were somewhat lower.
    It was also 4 years ago so take inflation into account.
    
    Without looking at my paperwork I'd have to say the whole mess
    cost me about $25K.  The land was heavily wooded but ledge did
    not need to get blasted.
    
         Driveway (300') $3K
         Clear/dig foundation $5K
         Electrical $1K
         Septic $6K
         Well $2K
         Foundation $4K
         Misc $3K

    RE: .6, perc test:
    
    In Mass they are getting VERY fussy about septic systems. I
    don't know about regulations in other areas.
    
    1) Here the land must pass perc test, no pass, no building permit.
    
       (In the case of an old house needing a new system there is no
        "grandfather" law. If a new system can't be installed that meets
    	code the dwelling is condemed, and must be vacated.)
    
    	The above happened to the people next door to me last December.
    	At an estimated cost between $8,000 and $15,000 the land can
    	in the above case can be reworked to the point that the local
    	inspector will allow a new system to be installed. The new system
    	will never work well, It will require frequent pumping etc.
    
    	The best bet is to get the seller to have the land perced. In
    	my area there has been so much trouble that most people have
    	the test done before putting the land up for sale.
    
        Also perc tests 'expire' after a number of years. I am fighting
    	that problem now, the powers that be won't allow my 12 year
    	old perc test results!
   
    2) Location of septic system depends on lot lines, location of well,
       and building location. 
    
    Kirk
    
     

    Yeah.  The septic.   Easily the area with the biggest headaches and
    potential pitfalls.   My place was in the sticks where no one much
    cared about any permits, inspections, and other bureaucratic stuff,
    but the septic system was a different story - design had to be approved
    by a professional engineer.  Plumbing inspector practically camped
    out at the site, etc, etc.
    
    Scary story about perc tests two lots over...   Perc'd OK in two
    places, but ledge almost at the surface was in the way of any
    reasonable place to put the septic system.   All the alternatives
    (blasting, remoting the system, etc) are driving the septic cost
    out of sight.   The moral of the story is that perc tests don't
    necessarily guarantee that a system can be built at reasonable
    cost (or at all).

    In my experience, it was not only the perc test that was the problem
    but the location of ground water. Our land is ancient riverbed-- all
    nice sand and gravel covered by about 6 inches of topsoil. It percs
    like mad, but the BOH found "evidence" of ground water at 3'. No water,
    just "evidence." That required us to build a system in fill because the
    bottom of the system had to be at least 4' (now 5') above the highest
    groundwater. 
    
    That turned out to be a heck of a lot of fill. My neighbor joked
    that he was worried we were building a resort hotel, from the size
    of the mound.
    
    Also, we had to have a professionally engineered septic plan approved
    by the BOH in order to get the building permit. Professional engineers
    don't work for free. We bought the land contingent on a successful perc
    and the seller provided an approved plan. If I had it to do again, I
    would try to specify the site of the perc a little more closely as I
    don't think we have the optimal siting of our house/system. 
    
    Foundation work was 10K/foot with extra for corners (complex house
    shapes = higher cost), rebar, continuous footings (for lally columns).
    Concrete was 55/yard plus ?? for chemical to keep it from freezing (we
    poured in january). 
    
    Site work (not incl. engineered plan) including 450' gravel drive,
    excavation for water line and other utilities, foundation hole, fill
    for septic (>2k yd), parts and labor for septic tank/leachfield, parts
    and labor for perimeter drain, building a swale to assist drainage,
    replace topsoil on finished grade, building a 40x4 fieldstone retaining
    wall, careful nursemaiding of project by conscientious local contractor
    came out right around 40k. We cut down the trees for the drive, he
    stumped and dealt with stumps. A great big chunk of that was fill.
    There was no ledge, most of the area was wide open with no slope
    of any kind.
    
    That data is for central Mass in January-May 1989.
    
    John H.

>>How do I estimate the cost of the driveway?  $/foot???

	Not sure, my 1/2 mile one was already built into the price of the
	lot. The earlier estimate of about $10/ft seems about right (unpaved)

>>How do I estimate the cost of a well?

	$7/ft to drill, $7/ft. for casing. In our case the well was about 250'
with about 100' of casing. The casing is used until the well hits bedrock. 
after that, the bedrock itself serves as a casing. 

	BTW, If you are building in central MA., there is a good chance you
will need a water filter to take out the high concentrations of iron and
manganese (not health problems but they stain the h#$@ out of all your clothes
and fixtures). Add another $1K.

>>How do I estimate the cost of the foundation?

	The main part of the house is about 50' x 28' with several jogs. 
Slab-on-grade on either side, one for the garage, one for a "guest wing" (bath
and bedroom). If I remember it was somewhere around 15K.

>>What if I have to blast away some ledge? cost/sq-ft????

	It cost the guy near me about 10K to blast for a whole foundation and
septic area.

>>How much will it cost to remove trees to build the house?

	I did this myself but I have heard costs in the $2K range.

>>How much does a perc test cost?
>>How much do septic plans cost?

	I really wouldn't separate these as has been mentioned in previous
replies. This is how you can end up with "swampland in Florida". Most (all?)
MA towns won't allow you to build until you have an approved septic plan. This
plan is based not only on percs, but on groundwater level (deep hole) tests. The
deep hole tests many times can only be done during a certain period in the
spring (they want to see the water table when it is at it's highest). I would
make any P&S contingent on an approved septic plan. It is up to your deal as
to whether you want to pay for it or include it in the price (either way you
probably pay for it.)

	In our case, the engineering costs and tests (the engineer has to be
there when they are done so you are paying for the engineer and the backhoe)
and final, approved design came to about 1K. Assume 1.5K to be safe.

>>How much does a septic system cost? (assume 4 bedrooms)

	Again, as said earlier, it depends greatly on the design. Ours was a
simple trench system (ground water was at 10' so the leaching pipes could be
laid in trenches, 4' above the high groundwater level). If you have high
groundwater, you need to bring in expensive fill, it can't be any type, to
raise the bed to the correct height. Ours was $6K. A neighbors was S15K

>>How much for landscaping?

	I'm doing my own, a bit at a time. But it ain't cheap. The 4K figure
for the basics seems about as low as you could go.


Finally, my cost for the stumping, grading, and foundation excavation ran
at 12K. The equipment operators get about $50/hour.

							Mark

Here's some data if you have to do lots of blasting.

I've just put in a two story garage set back into a hillside -- 23x28 
foundation, 4' frost wall along front side only, walls ranging from 2'
to 14' above floor level (it is a steep hillside).  The hillside, as
it turned out, was almost entirely solid stone.  Here are some prices:

	Blasting:	$5K, not counting machinery

	Foundation:	$4.5K, including concrete & labor

	Excavation:	$7K, including nearly $2K just to rent
			the machine needed to set the blasting mats
			in place and ecavate the stone.

	Carpentry:	$18K (stained cedar siding, no interior finish)
			This was a bargain price, as things turned out.

Excavation included fill around the foundation but no landscaping.

	Larry Seiler

    2 yrs ago, north central Mass.  
    
    Foundation hole, foundation, cement floors, backfill foundation,
    was a package, about 10k.
    
    Clear about 8" topsoil and replace with gravel 425' driveway, design
    and install septic, trench for utilities 400', package was 12k.
    
    This was a clear lot.  
    
    It really is best if you have an idea where you want the house and
    septic system before you perc, as the septic system MUST be located
    within mumble-mumble feet of the perc test, or you'll have to wait
    till next year and do it again.  
    
    Visit your local town hall.  Ask the nice lady at the building permit
    desk who some local plumbersframers, electricians, engineers are.
     Read between the lines when she tells you about these people, as
    she legally can't recommend one over the other.  If you are polite
    and smile alot your big problem will be getting her to shut up!
    But you'll come away with alot of info.  Ask the elec. about plumbers,
    the engineers about plumbers, etc.  Pretty soon you'll start to
    get a consensus about who does what kind of work.  
    
    Pick contractors to fit the size of your project.  My framer/builder
    was a guy who had built three or four houses before, but specialized
    in garage, family room additions, add a second floor type of work.
     I was his big job that year.  My project came first.
    Same with plumber and elec., etc.  You do not want an electrical
    outfit that does big commercial jobs, because you will be fill in
    work.  
    
    Pick contractors from your town or the next town, no further.  If
    you need to have a couple hours of work done right away so some
    one else can start their stuff, he can swing by on his way home
    from some other job, or on his way to the dump on Sat.  
    
    Get estimates.  The best guys will do a good job AND be competitive
    in price.  
    
    I moved into my house, minus finish carpentry inside, almost exactly
    six months from the first shovelful of dirt was touched.  Communicate.
    A lot.  Get an answering machine.  You'll be talking to a bunch
    of them.  Don't be afraid to pump a pile of detail into a message
    on your contractor's tape machine.  He can check out your questions,
    and call you with answers, and you save a step.  I never did see
    or talk to the guy who installed my garage door except on his or
    my tape machine!!  It worked out just fine!
    
    Carl
    

No luck in 1111.62 so here goes...

I cut down about a dozen trees this weekend. Mostly spruce, a few white
birch. Cut all the branches off and made a VERY big pile of brush. Saved
the timbers for eventual firewood use.

First attempt to dispose of brush was to throw on a little gas to get it going
and burn it (Yes, all this is being done legally with a permit). Gas burned,
but not much else. It was out almost instantly.

Second try. I stood on top of a 6' pile (only a small part of the total)
and SOAKED the whole mess with 12+ gal of diesel fuel. Let it soak in for
a while, threw a little gas on to get it going, and said if this won't
burn it, nothing will.

It went up with very impressive ball of flame. Lasted about a minute. Then
there was a 6' pile of slightly charred but definately not burned brush.
The little spruce needles burned - everything else is still there. Then the
tide came up (this is on the shore) and soaked everything in salt water.

The tide will probably take away what's left without creating too much hazzard
to boaters, but I certainly don't want to burn any more of the VERY LARGE
pile of brush until I know I can do it without leaving a mess behind.

What can I do to make this (green, fresh cut) brush burn? It seems to be
practically flameproof. Letting it dry isn't a great option because by the
time it dries, everything else will, and safe burning season will be over.

Ideas?

Erik

    
    	Putting a brush pile where the tide can reach it twice a day does 
    not seem to be the best way to get it to burn.  But....
    
    1)	Get some *very* dry wood, 1x2s, 2x4, and bigger.  Get as much as
    you can within reason, a few pieces is not enough.  Stuff this all the 
    way down at the bottom of the pile - this will make a bed of hot coals 
    at some point, and will keep the fire going.
    2)  Walk into the pile with a chainsaw, and chop it all up into smaller
    pieces, thus making the pile collapse onto the ground some, and thus
    get closer to the bed of coals.  
    3)  Light it off with diesel/gas again, and continue to rake or shovel 
    the fire to the center as it begins to burn down.  It takes a lot of
    tending to keep a green/water-soaked wood fire going.  You have to keep
    moving the unburnt material onto the coals. 
    
    Good luck,
    Eric

    
    		DO NOT USE GASOLINE TO START FIRES !!!!
    
    This is one of the best ways to burn yourself.  Gasoline will flash. 
    It is much too easy to leave a trail of gas from the brush pile back to
    the can and/or spill some on your hands and clothing.  As a volunteer
    firefighter and EMT, I don't want to have to come to your rescue. 
    PLEASE, do not use gasoline to start fires!
    
    If you must use an excellerator, use lighter fluid.  The best way would
    be as previously suggested.  Use a limb pruner to trim the brush so
    that the pile collapses.  Chain saws have a tendency to catch on all
    the twigs and small branches and kick back into your head or body.  Not
    a pretty sight.  Once you have reduced the air space between the
    branches, build a good fire using dry wood.  Once the fire is going,
    add your brush pile to the fire.  The fire will dry out the brush and
    them burn.
    
    One piece of wood by itself does not burn very well.  Two pieces of
    wood touching each other burn much better.  The combination of the all
    the air space which does not allow the brush to touch itself and the
    green wood is what is putting out your fire.
    

re .1

	Thanks for the pointers. One more question though (about the tide
part). I've been assuming that below tide is the best (safety-wise) place
to burn. Kidding aside, can I safely assume that (if I do it right next
time) I will be able to burn a pile in the 4 - 5 hrs when the tide is
below half?

	Also, any tips on how long to let the diesel soak into the wood
before lighting it off?

re .2

	I was aware of the Gasoline concern, but thanks for the reminder.
In case I wasn't explicit, I use diesel for this reason, and a small splash
of gas to get it started.

Erik (NREMT-A)

    Wait and burn it next year?
    

    As was already mentioned: the only way to burn green brush is to
    build a fire with good dry wood first, just like you want a campfire,
    using some good firewood is helpful. Then slowly add the brush, and
    in a couple of hours it will burn anything you feed it (I've even
    burnt small wet stumps). As far as letting the diesel soak in, if the
    brush is green, it won't even absorb it, it will merely run off into
    the ground, contaminating (please don't use diesel, you're just creating
    a mini-oil spill, that won't do you much good).
    	Bottom line, you've got to get a good hot fire first, then your
    brush will burn. Start small, with firewood, then feed it. I'd want
    more than 4 hours before it got flooded, 6 would probably be enough
    to do  lot. Just remember, stop adding wood at least an hour before
    it will be underwater, to give what's already burning plenty of time to
    burn down to ashes (at least an hour)
    
    
    	

 
A couple of items:  

1) Using a chainsaw is something you always do with the approach of doing 
   it safely.  Thus, use all precautions: chainsaw clothes, goggles, ear-
   defenders, etc.  (One of my nicknames is Chainsaw).  Use a chainsaw that 
   has an anti- kickback device.  Once you cut into a brush pile, the tendency
   for the bar to kick back and have the bar come up is greatly reduced 
   because the bar will come up against the wood above it.  Chainsaws are
   good tools if used properly, like any other power tool.

2) Burn below the tide - I assume you mean below high tide and above low 
   tide.   If you are in the New England area, you have about 6 hours and
   20 minutes between tides, though local current, prevailing winds, and 
   river flow volumes may alter that somewhat.  That should give you a good 
   4 hours or so to burn if you wait about an hour after the tide begins to 
   drop and start the fire close to the water.  That's plenty of time to burn
   a few small to medium sized trees.

3) You can ignite your starter fuel on the dry wood right away, dry wood will 
   burn right away.  There is no need to soak the green wood - it is already 
   full of water and will not absorb any diesel fuel.  Also, if you think about
   it, it will not absorb through the bark anyway.  Drying and absorbing 
   moisture takes place at about 95-98% through the end grain. 

4) Just go for it:  Pick your time, get the dry wood down, drop the wet wood
   pile down on the the dry wood, douse with charcoal starter, ignite, and 
   don't forget to bring soda, sandwiches, a friend or two, a Frisbee, and 
   the dog.

Eric

I worked on a golf course to support my college education.  Every spring before
mowing season kicked in we would do brush clearing to keep busy.  We had a fool-
proof fire starting method.  Nowadays, it probably is considered to cause about
2-3 environmental hazards.  Here it is anyway.

Get a couple tires, lay them on their sides, pour fuel oil in to fill most of 
the sidewall trough, top off with gas, lay on the green wood, splash a little 
gas on the mound, trail a trail of gas about 30 feet away and light the trail 
of gas.  Stand back and watch the pyrotechnics.  Guaranteed to work, tires burn
real hot (but create black smoke).

A story about the potential dangers.  It was a strange spring day.  The air was
very moist.  I have never seen anything like it.  When we would light one of
these heaps off (the gas must have evaporated a little and filled the gaps in 
between the leaves in the pile) the whole pile would literally rise about three
feet in the air with a big FAWOOM and then settle down again.  Truly impressive.
My boss came by that day when we were having a little trouble getting our gas
trail going.  Saw our problems and offered to help.  He strode up to the pile
whipped out a book of matches and before we could finish saying "I don't think
you want to do that" lit a match and tossed it in.  FAWOOM!  Well he had singed
eyebrows, his nose blistered and peeled and he looked like he had a sunburn for 
a week.  He wanted know why we hadn't warned him.  We explained to him that this
was his design for starting fires.

Enjoy but be careful,
Stan

A couple more hints.  First you wouldn't catch me wading into a pile of brush
with a running chainsaw.  (At the top of a ladder holding on with one hand and
the chainsaw in the other maybe :-)  Too much chance of having the blade get
caught and kick back.  I cut before I pile.  Even if you already have a mountain
of brush you might want to repile it.  Set up your tinder (be it tires or dry
wood) and stack the green branches on top.  Always stand at the same spot when
adding branches so that you add them in parallel (as opposed to higgledy-
piggledy).  This will form a tighter pile and make it easier to burn.

Stan

For piling the spruce branches, you'll find they all have the same basic
shape and can be stacked very neatly spoon fashion, one inside the other.

As everybody has said, you need a hot core of coals to keep the actual fire 
going.  What happens is that the hot core dries the green stuff until it gets
hot enough to burn.  Birch will burn green if you have a good fire going.

Build a good solid fire out of scrap lumber, firewood, or whatever.  Pile the
birch twigs on top of that, then pile birch logs, split if they're big enough,
on top of that.  Then start piling full armload size stacks of spruce branches
over your hot fire, one load at a time.  Periodically toss the scraps around
the outside into the fire.  

Basically, you're trying to burn little dry stuff and to turn big wet stuff 
into little dry stuff so it will burn too.  Even with all this work, you're not
really going to get a self-sustaining fire.  You have to warm the ground 
underneath it a couple of days to do that, but if you feed your fire 
judiciously, you should be able to burn a lot in six hours.  Question:  If 
you're doing this on the water, isn't the area above normal daily high tide
just as fireproof and a lot more convenient?

In the previous note, the burning tires are creating the hot core, but since 
you have a stack of birch, you're doing fine for hot core.

Fuel oil is only good for starting the fire; you can't really burn anything
with fuel oil.  DON'T USE GASOLINE, not even to get the fuel oil started.  Use 
burning paper.  

You can always ask your local fire brigade... Seriously, when ever we have
some heavy duty burning to do on our farm in Australia, we invite the local
fire brigade out. Beats sitting on their buns waiting for a fire... And they
are real close if anything goes wrong...

q

    If you can, build 3 walls around where you intend to have the fire. 
    Rocks, cement blocks, whatever you have that is not flammable.  Like a
    fireplace, this will reflect much of the heat back into the pile and
    also give you a better draft.
    
    Lee

    
    
      ONE OTHER THING...How about leaving the property separate. Leave it
    as a separate deed. This way they won't re-appraise your property, if
    this IS what they do. Another words keep it separate. One tax statement
    for your current property and one for the new parcel of land. 
    
     Hope everything works out well for you,  Al
    
    

    We have land (4 1/2 acres) and have almost finalized design plans to
    build so things are beginning to move faster now.  The house is being
    set back about 550' with the frontage being the narrowest portion of
    the land (and the house in back being in the widest section).  The
    driveway and septic (along with foundation) will be the first things
    done.  But, I have this question on the landscaping... (and probably
    more to come as we progress).
    
    Most of the land has been cleared (brush cut down and burned last year)
    good trees left which our driveway will work through.  The brush is
    starting to grow back and was 6' tall last year.  What can we do to
    prepare the land for a type of grass/flowers that won't let the brush
    grow back in?  Although the landscaping will probably be done when the
    house is completed (we will do it), we want to be able to do something 
    on our own to keep the thick brush from returning now before the spring
    sets it all into action.  It is agriculturally zoned and this used to
    be farm land so there are some natural growth we want, but it grew so
    thick last year you could barely walk through it.
    
    Thanks, Betty
    381-0924
    VMSMKT::COLEMAN

RE: <<< Note 4902.0 by VMSMKT::COLEMAN >>>
    
> -< Getting rid of thick brush >-

 There's really no easy way short of digging up the roots.

 What I did to minimize tearing things up was to use an axe and just chop out
the roots in a circle around the stump then pull out the stump.

 Quite labor intensive but it worked. Nothing grew back and the grass 
flourished.

 For the bigger brush (2" or larger) stumps the same thing was done with the 
additional step of a chain on the tractor to yank out the stump which was too
big to pull out by hand.

    Round-up, either spray it or using a good rubber glove with an old
    work glove soke the work glove and go around and grab each piece
    of brush.
    The round-up will get absorbed through the leaves and into the root
    system and kill the brush.
    Round-up is about as good as it gets (environmentally).
    Warning ;
    if you do use round-up and choose to spray keep in mind everything
    it touches (trees - grass - bursh.....) dies.
    So never spray on a windy day.
    This will work great for an area you want for lawn because it will
    kill everything, and give you a fresh start.
    Round-up disapates quickly and does not stay in the ground. I can't
    remember how long you have to wait to replant but it is not long.
    Round-up is consentrated and expensive $30.00 a quart if I remember
    correctly, but it also goes a long way, and does a great job.
    
    
    good luck
    

    
    I run along the fence lines with my 7' cutterbar mower on 
    the tractor.  Does a number  on the small stuff....  but
    if you dont want to use spray, or have anything with power.
    The make a gulf club type whip.  It has a heavy duty cutting
    edge and will take down 2" brush depending on your swing....
    
    JD

      Unless you cut it on a somewhat regular basis brush will grow.  At
      least thats my experience.  If you want it to be  somwhat  rustic,
      you  only need to cut it about twice a year to keep ahead of heavy
      brush. I have an area on my property that I do 2-3 times/year with
      a  heavy-duty  string  trimmer, but its a lot less that 4.5 acres!
      For that much I'd suggest a bar-type mower, as  a  previous  reply
      suggested.  I happen to like the Gravely 2-wheel tractors; you can
      equip it with a regular mower for your lawn area (if  any)  and  a
      snowblower  for  you driveway in addition to the bar-mower.  There
      are also single-purpose bar mowers --  I  think  Troy-Built  makes
      one.  

    I cleared an entire lot with round up... it was heavily overgrown with
    bittersweet vine and small trees... spray at the height of the growing
    season.. it may take a year to totaly work.. but after 7 days you can
    plant whatever.. it goes after the roots too.. good stuff!

    
    
    	How safe is using Roundup with homes that have wells?
    
    	John

    
    
>    	How safe is using Roundup with homes that have wells?
    

As one of the previous noters said, about as safe as it gets.  It breaks down
to constituant parts in a matter of hours.  Faster in sunlight.  Non-toxic to
animal life.  Roundup was a bit famous when it was introduced because the
president of the company drank a glass of it during the press conference.
I understand he is still around (although he twitches alot...sorry, couldn't
resist :-) ).

al

    
    
     I searched through this file but couldn't quite find a discussion of
    this. I am looking at the possibility of building a house in a development 
    where the lot is sloping downwards into the woods. The whole area is 
    generally hilly.
    
      The builder has filled the land to level part of the lot to build
    upon. I am not certain how much filling was done since I never saw the
    lot when it was sloping. An approximate cross-sectional picture would 
    look like this..
    
                        Filled area
         Curb         House                               Woods
                 |<------90 ft approx---->|
        ---------\_________________________
                                           \
                                            \
                                             ---+
                                                 \
                                                  \
                                                   \
                                                    \
                  
     
    
      This house would be part of large development and the builder is
    supposed to be experienced and "reputable". I have vague fears
    about the structural integrity of the house when it is not built
    on "original" land but I cannot come up with the right questions
    to ask the builder since I have no background in this area. I 
    have several questions that I can ask here, though..
    
     - Are my fears baseless?  If not, what should I be fearing?
     - Do building codes and town inspectors do an adequate job to 
       ensure that the house would be safe? 
     - If the above is not true, should I just walk away from this 
       property or should I get it inspected on my own? 
     - Who does this kind of an inspection? Structural Engineers?
       Do they cost big bucks?
     - Will builders normally accept my inspector's report and release 
       me from any binding agreement if a problem is found?
    
    Any information will be appreciated..
    
     Raj
    
    

    I would NEVER build on filled land. The land can/will settle.....
    most likely past any guarantee the "builder" gives you.
    Don't do it. Find another lot, or move the house to a spot where the 
    foundation will be over non disturbed soil.
    
    Marc H.

    No, I don't think your fears are groundless.  Filled land can settle,
    and depending on how much it settles, and when, it could cause
    problems.  And all that depends on a bunch of stuff, like what was
    used for fill, how well it was compacted, what the underground water
    situation is, and on and on.  IF "good" fill was used (no vegetation
    like stumps, that may rot, for instance), and it's had time to settle
    (at least through a winter, I'd say), and the place wasn't a swamp
    to begin with, there probably wouldn't be anything that could go too
    wrong...although you may still get a few cracks in the foundation.
    I'm certainly no expert though.
    

    
     I had a conversation with the builder and have been told that even
    though fill has been used, the foundation will rest on virgin soil.
    Also, the fill does not contain any vegetation. Does this mean I can
    stop worrying?
    

    
      If the base of the foundation actually sits on UNDISTURBED soil, then
    you will not have any problems. (At least, none caused by the soil
    settling) I'd still be concerned that this will be true.
    
    				Kenny
    

RE:  The builder told me...


The builder, in my opinion, is going to tell you what he thinks you want to hear.

If you really like the location, you might want to seek a third party person to
take a look at things and help you decide whether to build there or not.  It
might cost a few bucks, but I'd rather waste $500 and know that I have a good
peice of land, versus, $5000 or more in repairs when you have foundation
problems.

-Al

    
    Re: -.1
    
     I agree that I should probably check this out independenlty. Who is
    qualified to do this kind of checking and what will they be looking
    for? As I have said in .0, the lot has already been levelled. I would
    doubt the builder is not going to let any inspector I hire, dig into 
    the lot to determine what is underneath. What is the normal procedure
    for such an inspection?
    

Is this lot going to have septic?  If it is, has the
septic plan been filed?  Taking a look at that will
give you a bunch of information, for free.  There will
be soils data, and notation of where the bedrock is, if
any.

Sometimes the basement of a house is set on bedrock
or other unpercable surface. Then dirt is heaped up
around the basement so that septic can be installed.
If this is the case with the lot in question, your
house will not settle.

If I were you, I'd find out exactly what the house is
going to sit on.  Get the proper name for the soil, and
then look it up (you might have to call the state to 
get the definition - these things are fairly local).

If you are sitting on bedrock, you will need an drainage
system under the house.  Otherwise water will drain
through the soil to the bedrock where in times of 
heavy rain it will pool under and then in your basement.

If you get a drainage system, don't ever let the outlet
block up with ice/snow mixtures.

Guess how I know all this!

Margaret.

    
    I finally got hold of the project engineer and talked to
    him about this. He tells me that if the fill has to be
    very deep, they would do some thing called a "structural
    fill". They do this by digging all the way down to 
    virgin soil and then start laying down layers and layers
    of highly compacted soil while running water over these
    layers to ensure proper settling. They continue this to
    within two feet of the footing. Under the foundation
    slab they will have curshed rock or gravel to allow for
    drainage. They will also have perimeter drains etc. to
    move water away from the foundation. He claimed that he
    gets a certificate from a structural engineer verifying
    the integrity of the foundation and these usually far 
    exceeds the building codes. This builder also gives a
    10 year warranty for structural problems.  
    
     To answer -.1, there is no septic system. There is a
    town sewer system.
    

This may be on a bit of a tangent, but I'd go look at houses that are
situated like yours will be ... and I know where you can find some:

I take my son on his paper route each morning, summer and winter.
Several houses have driveways that are useless in the winter because
of the slope.

Check out Browning Road, low teens, in Shrewsbury.

	From the explanation you got, I personally wouldn't want to get
	involved. There are enough potential gotchas in new construction
	without the gyrations of putting in compacted soil, foundation
	drains, etc. to relieve a known potential problem.

	Roy

     Given my druthers, if my house was built on the side of a hill I'd MUCH
prefer quality structural fill over whatever happened to be there naturally.

     I currently live on a slope.  The house was built 13 years ago.  10 years
ago was a very wet season and 3 of the neighbor's houses slid down the hill.
It was determined that the builder had not done his "structural fill" correctly
and there was a layer of topsoil (in this case adobe) between the base
subsoil and whatever fill he did put in.  Because of the heavy water getting to
the poor fill, that shallow layer acted like a layer of grease and sheared,
bringing down the 3 houses. 

     The owners sued and the builder had to make corrections (replace the
bad soil with verified good structural fill) and restore the houses to their
original condition.

     Bottom line is I know (or rather I have it on good authority) the soil
under my house will hold up, whereas those in other locations without the
verification of what their house is built on may be living on borrowed time.

Al

    RE: .11
    
    New England doesn't have much topsoil. Most of our soil is "ground up
    granite"!
    
    Marc H.

<    New England doesn't have much topsoil. Most of our soil is "ground up
<    granite"!
    
   Perhaps, but having tried hard to get a successful perc in that "ground up
granite" I'll offer that there is a substantial amount of clay mixed in with
the gravel...

   Having dug many many postholes in that "ground up granite" in the 13 years
I tried farming that crap, I'd also suggest the granite grinder missed a few of
the bigger pieces.  Perhaps we could pass a few of the big chunks through a 2nd
time....:-):-):-) 

Al