Conference 7.286::home_work

    I think it was the Jan. '86 NS issue (if not, then Feb.), and it
    did contain information about at least a couple of testing kits.
    
    If the house is very tight, you need some kind of supplemental
    air circulation (regardless of Radon) to avoid other indoor
    environment degradation.  (An air-to-air heat exchanger is best,
    since otherwise the heat you expend in the winter just bringing
    the outside in-coming air up to house temperature can easily run
    up your heating bills by 20% -25%).  Given such adequate circulation,
    if Radon is in fact coming into your home it will be dispersed outside
    before building up to any level you'd have to worry about.
    
    However, this assumes complete circulation.  If you have a cellar,
    include it in the loop - or insulate its ceiling thoroughly and
    keep the cellar windows open.  If you have a slab, make sure the
    underside is vented around the edges:  otherwise, it makes a
    perfect trap for buildup, which can then permeate the slab itself
    (concrete being somewhat gas-permeable) and possibly enter the
    upper house in concentrated form (and in random fashion that
    testing might not uncover if you can't get an under-slab sample).
    
    There has been a typical over-reaction to this issue recently,
    but some concern is justified - and it's fairly easy to avoid
    the problem (if you have one in the first place).
    							- Bill
    

    There was also an article within the past month in NEWSWEEK regarding 
    RADON.
    
    Dick
    
    

    This reply is directed at the person from ZKO who sent me a mail
    message. I somehow lost your note when I tried to file your entry.
    Could you send me the name/ address/ phone # of the person you had
    do your radon testing. I'm on Tractor::Downs, DTN 264-2655 and live
    at the MKO-1 facility. Glad to meet another Mason-ite!
    

	Last week's N. H. Times (Aug. 22) has a short article on
	radon testing. It mentions that N. H. may be picked by the
	EPA for a radon testing program. Under the program, the
	EPA will give the state 2000 test kits, to be allotted on
	the basis of population. (Hmmm... I wonder if Mason will
	get one...:^)

	The article also mentions that private testing is available,
	but doesn't give any sources.

	-Bob B.

    Another avenue is the testing being done by the Univ of Pittsburg.
    They are doing a research project on Radon, and will send you a
    sample kit, you put it out in your house for a week, then mail it
    back to them. They will analyze it and send you the results. The
    cost was $12. I do not have the address at work, but will enter
    it from home tonight.
    
    I used them to test my house. It passed :-) 

        VCS 

    Chemserve in Milford will test your water for radon.  I believe
    the cost was $25.

    The address for Radon Testing at Univ of Pittsburg is:
    
    Univeristy of Pittsburgh
    Physics Dept
    Randon Project
    Pittsburg, PA 15260
    
    Send them a letter with a check for $12 and they will send you back
    the kit.
    
    VCS

    This months New Shelter  (Now called Pratical Homeowner) had
    the following on Radon testin:
                                   
    
    The January 1985 cover story of New Shelter alerted readers to the
    problems of Radon in the home. Radon, a natuarally occuring radioactive
    gas may be responsible for as many as 30000 deaths each year. Yet
    little is known about it.
    
    In an effort to speed up the research efforts and to help homeowners
    identify radon contamination in their homes, Pratical Homeowner,in
    cooperation with Air Chek and Alpha Energy Labs, has agreed to
    coordinate a national radon survey. To encourage participation, readers
    receive a substantial discount on testing kits. (Practical Homeowner
    will not make any money from this survey)
    
    The kits will cost participants $11.95 (if you wish to test several
    areas in your home simultaneously, you can order 3 kits for $29.95)
    The questionnaire included in your test kit will help us and Air
    Chek, compile data on tested homes and locations.  All names and
    addresses will be kept in stictest confidence.
    
    To join in the testing and survey, send your name, address, and
    check to:
                Air Chek
                P.O. Box 2000-PH
                Penrose, NC 28766
    
    After you receive your testing device, keep it in your home for
    4 days, then return it to Air Chek in the envelope provided.  The
    folks there will process the results and advise you of your radon
    level within 10 days.  The survey along with the latest national
    developments will be published in a future issue of Practial Homeowner.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                                    

    A friend of mine heard on the radio a number you could call for
    information on Radon. The number is 617-727-6214. I called and they
    are sending me an information package. I will update this note when
    I get it.
    
    Mark

    seeing .9 reminded me, I saw an article in the Monadnock Ledger a
    couple of weeks ago and jotted down the phone numbers it gave, I just
    happen to have them still in my wallet.  The numbers are in NH: for
    info on water testing call (603) 271-3445, I believe that is the state
    Water Supply and Pollution Control Board (or whatever they call it) in
    Concord;  for info on air testing (603) 271-4674 (sorry, no idea
    who that reaches).
    
    I asked a couple of places that I called recently about testing our
    well for a refinance, they both mentioned the University of Pittsburg
    and also the State of Maine.  Sorry but I don't have contact info
    (there is an earlier reply with U of Pittsburg info). 
    
    Incidentally, the article seemed to indicate that concern was not
    diminishing as we learn more about it, just that the levels encountered
    varied widely for many reasons.  Seems like a good idea to check
    on it, at least to me.

    I read an article about this in the Concord (NH) Monitor last night.
    The most surprizing thing to me was:  If your water supply has a
    high level of radon, and you use a charcoal water-filtering system
    (such as a Water Pik attachment on your sink), the filter can actually
    build up a dangerous amount of radioactivity.

    You might go to the sink to get a drink of water, have a bunch of
    the stuff loosen up and pour into the glass, and ...

    I don't know the possible seriousness of this but it was an
    angle I hadn't thought of.

    I recieved the information package from the Radiation Control Program,
    Mass Dept. of Public Health. They give a citizens guide to Radon.
    They also provide a list of orginizations that conduct Radon screening.
    I will put some of those in this note, but the entire list is to
    long.
    
	Terradax Corp.
 	460 N. Wiget Lane
    	Walnut Creek Cal. 94598
    	415-938-2545
    
    	Maine State Dept of
    	Human Services Public
    	Health Lab Station 12
    	221 State St.
    	Augusta Maine 04333
    	207-289-2727
    
    	University of Pittsburgh
    	Physics Dept. Radon Project
    	3941 O`Hare St
    	Pittsburgh Pa     	
	412- 624-4290
    
    	Radon Engineering
    	1 Lethbridge Plaza
    	P.O. Box 549
    	Mahaw N.J.  07340
    	201-529-8300
    
    	Radiation Service Org.
    	P.O. Box 419
    	5204 Minneck Rd
    	Laurel MD.  20707-0419
    	301-953-2482
    
    	Radon Measurement & Services
    	13131 West Cedar Dr
    	Lakewood Col.  80228
    	303-980-5086
    
    
    	Hope this information helps.
    
    	Mark

    We are buying a new house in Westford, Ma. and we recently had the
    water tested for several things, including radon.  I was told that
    the EPA guideline for radon is 20,000 units/liter and our water
    has 26,000 units/liter.  I was told that for $665 plus installation
    we could buy some kind of water filter which would take care of
    the problem.  
    
    We are not sure how worried we should be about this situation.
    At this point I don't think we can get out of the deal but we
    are hoping to get the builder to buy and install the filter.  Our
    lawyer did add a water clause to our P&S before it was signed.
    
    Does anyone have a similiar experience or know anything about this
    type of water filter?
    
    Carol
    

    re: radon water filter
    
    Do you know what type of filter it is?  I would guess that the radon
    is present in the water as a dissolved gas.  If so, I suspect that
    an activated carbon filter is appropriate.  $665 seems a little high.

    Anyone seen information on the effects of various types of paints
    or sealers for concrete (basement floor, foundation) to reduce radon
    infiltration?

    Well I did some more testing with a 3 month radon detector and the
    results were disturbing. My earlier short term test (charcoal
    canister), performed on the third floor turned up a value of 5.7
    pci/L. This is just above the 4pci/L, do nothing level. I decided
    to do a 3 month test in the basement and I got a 20.1 pci/L reading.
    This is the equivalent of smoking about 1,1/2 packs of cigarettes/day.
    I'm concerned about this level of radon in the basement and I'm
    going to take measures to bring down the readings. I know Radon
    had been discussed in an earlier note (340.) but what I'm wondering
    is has anyone out there been successful in lowering their basement
    levels. I've got a lot of literature that discusses different methods
    of reducing the radon levels but what is said on paper and what
    happens in real life can be somewhat different. I'd like to hear
    from people who have hands on experiences with lowering these levels.
    What did you do? How much did you lower your radon levels? How much
    did it cost you?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Bill D.
    

    
    I just read in today's NH Union Leader that a Harvard Professor
    has invented a Radon filter for the home. I'm not sure of the cost
    or how it works (the article didn't go into details).

    Mike

    Would the filter then be filled with radioactive hazardous waste
    and impossible to get rid of? I think this radon gig is another
    scam to rip off the consumer for more money. I mean all of our
    ancestors lived and most never heard of radon and all of a sudden
    everyone seems scared to death of it. Proper ventilation still seems
    to be the best answer. We fight to make our homes air tight to save
    100 dollars a year and some are spending 10x that to vent out the
    radon. Something dosent make sense about that way of thinking.
    Sure radon is gonna kill you but not from its own dangers instead
    it kills through stress from worrying about it.
    BTW- I live in colorado where radon levels are very high in fact
    I heard a report saying we as a state had the highest in all the
    US.
    
                                                                  
    -j
    

    re: .2
    
  > I mean all of our ancestors lived and most never heard of radon and
  > all of a sudden everyone seems scared to death of it.
   
    Our "ancestors", and many of our contemporaries, never heard of
    asbestos, and those that did believed it was harmless.  My point
    is that not knowing the danger of something doesn't mean it is
    harmless.  Ignorance can be hazardous sometimes.
    
  > Proper ventilation still seems to be the best answer. We fight to
  > make our homes air tight to save 100 dollars a year and some are
  > spending 10x that to vent out the radon.
    
    How does one ventilate a house in mid-winter, without sending the
    heating bill skyrocketing?  I would not want to open windows when
    it is 20-below outside.

  > Sure radon is gonna kill you but not from its own dangers instead
  > it kills through stress from worrying about it.

    Surely you jest, or you have some statistics to back up your claim.
    
    re: .0

    We recently bought a house in Westford, MA, and had the water tested
    for various contaminants, including radon.  The test showed a higher
    than recommended radon level, so we bought a water filter to alleviate
    the problem.  This winter, we plan on testing the air for radon,
    and will take appropriate action if the test comes back positive.
    We have a workshop set up in the basement, so I am especially concerned
    about radon levels there as we will be spending a significant amount
    of time there.
    
    I believe the day will come, in the near future, when a successful
    test for radon will be required for you to sell your house.  I think
    it is sensible for those with homes in high-radon areas, like New
    England, to have their homes tested now.
    
    Marc

    
>    How does one ventilate a house in mid-winter, without sending the
>    heating bill skyrocketing?  I would not want to open windows when
>    it is 20-below outside.

Peter Hotton, the Boston Globe handyman, wrote yesterday about 
condensation problems in a winter house. The cure, he said, was 
ventilation; the same cure, I suspect, for radon trouble. Hotton said 
opening an upstairs window and all the doors or the fireplace flue and 
the doors for 10 minutes or so would probably do the trick for the 
condensation problem and not waste "very much" heat.

John H.

    ref. .4
     This may work fine for a moisture problem but if you use this method
    to rid yourselve of radon you may end up with higher levels of the
    gas then when you started. This occurs because with your fire place,
    wood stove flues left open you cause the air in the house to exhaust
    out thus making the air pressure in the house less then the outside
    (negative pressure in the house). This may cause a suction effect
    in other parts of the house (natures attempt to equalize the air
    pressure from the positive outside to the negative inside - vacumm
    cleaner effect). If you open a cellar window you may provide some
    good, radon free, fresh air to enter you house (this would be
    benificial). On the other hand, if there is no window open you would
    cause a suction of radon filled air through the cracks in your
    foundation, thus making the situation worst.
     As mentioned in .0, I have a 20+ pCi/l level of radon in my cellar
    and what I'm thinking about doing is plugging up every hole that
    enters through the foundation - around well pipe, electrical service
    entrance, floor drains, etc.,. Them I'm going to access the subfloor
    perimeter drain that travels in a connected loop around my footings.
    I plan to suck air through this foundation drain system and exhaust
    it to the outside. Hopefully this procedure should create kind of
    a low volume vacuum below my foundation floor which should pickup
    the radon gas and exhaust it outside, before it seeps into the cellar.
    I'll retest after this idea is installed and let you know how much
    my radon level goes down.
    
    Bill D.
    

    It's comforting to see that I'm not alone in believing that the
    radon issue has been blown all out of proportion, while real
    problems that have a serious, immediate impact on public health
    (like sold waste disposal and the pollution of Boston Harbor, for
    example) are the object of political gamesmanship.
    
    pbm
    

    Ref. .6
    I hope your right and it is later proven to be just a new paranoia.
    Most article I have read don't seem to think so, in fact many agencies
    researching the effects of radon are starting to believe that it
    may be the second leading cause of lung cancer in smokers and perhaps
    the leading cause in non-smokers. I'm don't want to come across
    as an alarmist but I do feel it should not be taken lightly. I'm
    not in agreement about .6's mention of it not being a real problem
    and that radon has a lesser immediate impact on public health. Just
    because you can't see it, smell it or know it's there without testing
    is no reason to discount its impact. Just thismorning while driving
    in to work I heard on the news that MA. has adopted measures to
    test over 2000 homes throughout the state in an effort to locate
    high radon risk areas. Theres alot of talk among banks and real
    estate people that radon testing is going to be a required test
    (just like clean drinking water from private wells) that will be
    conditional upon securing a mortgage on a dwelling. I think the
    public is just begining to become aware of how important an impact
    radon is having on public health.
    
    Bill D.
    

    re: .7
    
    I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one on the net who takes the
    Radon issue seriously.
    
    re: .6
    
    I'm all for clean water and air.  I'm also all for my personal health
    and that of my family.  There is not much that I as an individual can
    do to clean up Boston Harbor, but there is a lot that I can do to make
    my home a safe place to live.  The first thing I can do is to test
    my home for Radon, and take appropriate action from there.  Clearly
    there are environmental problems today of all sizes - why should I
    ignore a potential personal environmental problem and only concentrate
    on the public problems?  The two are not incompatible.

    Marc

    Karen, if you live in NH, I suggest you call the N.H. Bureau of
    Environmental Health (don't have the number handy) and reference
    the Radiological Health Program that they have going. The bureau
    is on Hazen Dr. in Concord, NH.. They will send you some informative
    info on radon in the home. If you live in another state I'd contact
    their bureau of Piblic Health. 
     You can very easily test for radon yourself with the kits that
    are available at numerous locations. Some larger hardware stores
    carry the charcoal test units for about $10 to $15 each. Let us
    know what your results were and where you live.
    
    Bill D. 

> How does one test for radon?  Do you do it or do you hire a company to do it?
> How much does it cost?  What are the acceptable levels?

There are probably a number of home inspection companies that will do 
it.  There's also a book -- not unlike the "learn to juggle" book that 
comes with three soft blocks to learn on or the "learn to jump rope" 
book that comes with a plastic rope -- that comes with a vacu-tainer 
which you open in your house and mail back to the people who sold you 
the book.  They'll send back the results.

I'm afraid I'm one of the unbelievers, so I can't tell you anything more 
about it.
				>>>==>PStJTT

       ...you can still see in the basement when the lights are off
    
    
                                                            :^)

    re .9
    
    If you happen to live in Westford, Mass. you can write or call the
    Westford Board of Health at the Westford town hall and they will
    send you a package of information on radon that they have put together
    from various sources including some information from the state and
    federal governments - what it is, why you should be concerned about
    it, how to test for it, what are acceptable levels, etc.

    Unlike some others who have replied to this note I believe radon
    can be a serious health problem - what you don't see can kill you.
    I suggest the "unbelievers" spend an afternoon in the library like
    I did and read 10 or so articles on the topic.  There has been alot
    of research done on radon in the last few years and as someone
    already mentioned evidence points to radon being the 2nd leading
    cause of lung cancer.  Would you smoke 10 or 20 packs of cigarettes
    a day?  A serious case of radon might be equivalent to that.
    
    Carol
    

Watch it, there are a few people making unreasonable amounts of money  
off the radon scare.  Testing your home should only cost around $20.

Anyone recommend some generally (H.w.store) available kits that use 
the recommended methods?

    So just suppose Massachusetts finds that many homes have an
    unacceptable radon level? What do they propose be done about it?
    On second thought, given the history of bizarre, home-owner restricting
    laws in this state, I don't wanna know...

    Tom-R._who_lives_in_a_basement_apartment_but_isn't_gonna_worry_too_much_
          _about_it_for_now

    The NBC "Today" show of January 7 had a story about the dangers
    of Radon.  For more information about Radon you can write to:
    
    	Environmental Protection Agency
        Washington, DC  20460
    
    Ask for the booklet "A Citizen's Guide to Radon".
    
    Marc

    Why oh why are there those who believe that what they cant see wont
    hurt them ?????????????
    
    They say such trite things as their ancestors didn't die of Radon
    induced cancers, but then we wouldn't want to live in some of the
    draughty old houses our ancestors lived in.
    
    Why when as a purely environmental issue we want to reduce our use
    of energy (a laudable goal) does someone then say you dont lose
    much heat by opening the windows for 1/2 hr ???
    
    Seems to me that it is important to reduce radon concentrations
    first by every passive means possible ... eg sealing cracks in basement
    floors, caulking around the basement floor / wall joint etc.  Then
    use the air / air heat exchanger system as a part of the heating
    system.
    
    I cannot understand active ventilation of the drainage tile however...
    If the problem is that bad, maybe you should be looking at replacing
    the basement floor and skin the walls. (and add underfloor insulation
    andexterior basement wall insulation - so the plastics dont ventilate
    into the house... I gather in Europe they are now worrying about
    polyurethane as insulation .... )
    
    I have just purchased a home in an area where Radon is a potential
    problem.  Limestone bedrock has to be blasted to build most homes
    

    re.17
    My bliss is not ignorance it is called living in peace with my
    environment radon gas is all around you and me we cannot escape
    it. I could care less about those that want to spend a fortune
    installing all kinds of mega buck devices to rid the problem when
    opening a window will give the same results. Granted there is some
    energy loss in the process but then I dont keep my basement heated
    to 70 degrees so no big loss. I like fresh air and often keep a
    window open year around anyway. I seldom turn the heat above 64
    but if I did the cost of the heat lost during the ventilation would
    still be far less than a $2000 heat exchanger it would be many years
    before I could justify the expense. Inside the average home there
    are concentrations of many gasses all of which are bad over the
    long term. Fancy foundation ventilation and caulked seams wont
    solve the whole problem. Good air circulation will in every case
    provided the air outside is good.
    The comment that my ancestors dident die of radon induced cancer
    is not trite it is FACT. I cannot breath in some of the new air
    tight houses the air is just too stale and over heated.
    I have read probably every bit of information availible and several books
    on the subject and consider myself informed enough to say all the
    active devices in the world wont work as well as proper ventilation
    that can be had for almost free. I worry more about the quality
    of the air outside and it WILL cause problems for most long before
    the radon and like radon cannot be escaped. 
    
    I'm just not convinced that the problem needs an expensive solution
    when the obvious solution is healthier and cheaper.
    
    -j

    Re .17 & .18
    
    Apologies, I did not mean to create a *flame* issue here.
    
    I recognise there are many who like a cool home and for these,
    ventilation will not result in a great impact on heating bills,
    but there are others who like a warmer house and live in *very* cold
    climates (for example it is -28C outside right now) where the required
    amount of ventilation would result in a very cold house.  For these
    people (myself included) it is wise to look at ways to ensure that
    pollutants are prevented from entering (in the case of radon)
    or these extracted in an energy efficient manner.
    
    I fully agree that it is not wise to spend vast sums on mechanical
    systems to remove the problem until the inexpensive methods are
    done first .... just the same as insulating ones house, because
    often the worst infiltrations of radon are fixed by simple means.
    For the sake of a couple of tubes of caulk and a bit of waterproof
    cement patch and a bit of work I can reduce a potential hazard (even
    if *unproven*) then it wont break my bank and I will feel a little
    reassured.

    For those of us who prefer a warm / hot house, then we do insulate
    and weatherise to the point where we suffer from indoor pollutants
    so it is therefore wise to provide adequate and efficient ventilation
    and this must be included in the total cost equation.  If it is
    more cost efficient to provide direct ventilation then this is a
    valid choice but this is at the expense of the overall energy issue
    where we are burning maybe unneccessary energy and releasing more 
    pollutants into the atmosphere as a whole.  This then depends on
    a matter of cost and conscience and is a whole different ball of
    wax.  To follow this sub-topic further a move to SOAPBOX would be
    appropriate.

I've been dealing with the "radon issue" for several months now, and thought
I'd contribute a chronology of my progress to date to this note.

First learned about the issue as a result of a series on local (Boston) TV,
which uncovered a high incidence of homes with high radon levels in the area.
Since my home is relatively new, and perched on ledge which had to be blasted
to get the foundation in, decided to investigate.

Bought a test kit through mail order, ran the test, and got the results, which
showed an unacceptably high radon level (don't remember the exact figure).

As suggested by the company which ran the tests, contacted a state agency to
get more information.  They sent someone out, who ran some more spot tests which
confirmed the earlier results.  His tests showed a real "hot spot" to be my
chimney flues, which were open to bare earth at the bottom.  Presumably, radon
could enter the house through the ash trap doors in the basement, which were
certainly not tightly sealed.

His recommendation was to install a "sub-slab evacuation system".  The idea here
is to punch 2 or 3 holes in your basement floor, insert PVC pipes into the 
holes, bring the pipes together (like a manifold), place an exhaust fan in line,
and duct the whole thing to the outside.  By creating a slight vacuum under the
slab, the radon gas can be sucked up before it enters the basement, and vented
to the outside.  This sounded (a) kludgey, (b) expensive and (c) he couldn't
guarantee results, since so many factors (permeability of soil under the slab,
proper sealing of all floor cracks, etc.) influence performance.

Being fundamentally cheap, decided to take things on a step-by-step basis.  
Have just completed Phase 1, which consisted of the following:

  o  Poured concrete caps on the bare earth at the bottom of the chimney flues,
     to cover the exposed earth.

  o  Caulked the joint between basement walls and floor, as well as all cracks
     in the floor.  Also sealed the ash trap doors (never used 'em anyway) with
     caulking.

  o  Weatherstripped the door between my basement and the living areas of the
     house.  The idea is to prevent drawing air from the basement when a
     negative air pressure is created in the living areas (from running a
     clothes dryer, using a fireplace, or operating my whole house fan).


Am now re-testing to see if Phase 1 has improved the situation.  Am using 
three "Alpha Track" testers (one in the basement, one on the first floor, and 
one on the second) which will collect data for 3 months for a longer-term
average than the earlier tests.

Pending results of this test, am starting to think about what I will do if
Phase 2 becomes necessary.  So far, I am considering painting the basement
walls and floor with an epoxy paint, and adding some sort of active (fan-driven)
ventilation system to the basement.

My test will be concluded in May.  I'll post the results.  In the meantime,
I'd be interested on any comments on the effectiveness of painting or
ventilating, as well as any other ideas people might have for Phase 2.
    

              <<< TALLIS::S1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]REAL_ESTATE.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Real Estate - Put Ads in #19 >-
================================================================================
Note 674.1                       Radon in Acton                           1 of 9
BONZO::SEILER "Larry Seiler"                         22 lines  14-FEB-1988 17:22
                         -< Consumer Reports says... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since radon is a gas, removing it should not be a problem - just air the 
house out.  The problem is keeping it from seeping into the house. 

Consumer Reports had an article on radon in their July 1987 issue.
They describe radon testers, discuss the sources of radon in your
home (mostly through your foundation), present a list of services
that will test for radon, and describe ways to make your house safer.

The latter section starts "Just about any radon problem can be alleviated."
It describes a number of ways, including ventilating your basement, sealing 
radon entry points, plus some more expensive treatments for extreme cases 
(costing up to $5000).  For less than 50 pCi/l, they say that ventilation 
generally suffices (they also say the recommended maximum is 4 pCi/l).
Sealing up cracks in the basement walls (including where pipes enter)
sometimes suffices.  If there is any bare earth showing in your
basement, it should be sealed too, of course.

If the problem is fixed, I don't see that the value of the house is reduced.
But speaking personally, I'd want to make certain it can be fixed before 
buying the house at any price.  Nothing is worth lung cancer.

	Larry

    I too am going through a mild (?) bout with radon right now.  My
    wife and I purchased a house in Lancaster during the summer which,
    after we had made an offer (and before the P&S), we found out had
    a radon level of about 12pCi/l.  After we read more about it and
    had the guy from the state who is running all those radon tests on 
    MA homes over to look at the house, we were sufficiently concerned
    to threaten to back out of the deal unless the sellers agreed to
    fix the problem.  What we finally agreed upon was that they would
    put about $2000 in escrow pending the results of further tests.
    If these tests also came in above the 4pCi/l recommended standard,
    then we could use the money to fix the problem.  As per the terms
    of the agreement, we have to run 2 simultaneous tests of both the
    long-term (alpha track) and short-term (charcoal) tests.  The first
    run showed results of about a 11 with the alpha track and a 22 with
    the charcoal.  This is after the seller had caulked the wall/floor
    joint and cemented about every hole imaginable.  The second run will 
    be finished in about a week.
    
    Like someone in a previous reply, the guy from MA was pushin the sub-
    slab suction system to us, but I too am wary about the potential
    lack of results.  Right now, we're leaning towards an air-to-air 
    heat exchanger.
    
    As you see, I am in a better position than most since I have someone
    else's money to play with.  Would I have sprung for the cost of
    the tests/repair if it were my money?  The tests, definitely, since
    they are about $12-$20 per floor (mail order) for peace of mind.
    The repair?  At first I thought not, but after reading and hearing
    more, I definitely would.  Somehow, the $500-$2000 (?) outlay just
    doesn't seem too high compared to the possibility of incurring the
    same risk of lung cancer as a 2 pack-a-day smoker.
    
    I'll post the results of the second test and repair method/results
    if anyone's interested.
    
    

    BTW, anyone interested in reading more about radon should see the
    article in the July 1987 issue of Consumer Reports.  It's pretty
    informative and gives the names of several vendors of the various
    detection devices.  The following were the ones that I went with
    (these are also the vendors that the state of MA uses):
    
    	ALPHA TRACK  device -  Terradex Corp, 1-800-528-8327, $25 each
    or 3/$65.
    
    	CHARCOAL device - Airchek, 1-704-684-0893, $12 each + shipping
                                                                      
    If you can't get a copy of July's CR, write me and I'll send you off
    a copy of the article.
                          
    Peter

    they also sell them at purity suprime (super market) in maynard.

re .13:

Is radon in water dangerous?  According to someone we just spoke to
at the EPA, no.  However, radon in your water diffuses into the air, and
that *is* dangerous.  According to this guy, radon is the most dangerous
substance the EPA monitors, based on level of hazard.  

We are buying a house with a water radon level of 6,555 pCi/L (pico-Curies
per liter), and wondered how dangerous this is.  According to our
information, "many health physicists regard 20K as a reasoanable maximum
level for private wells", but the EPA may suggest a maximum level as low
as 1K for  municipal water.  So is 6,555 good or bad?

Again according to the EPA guy we spoke to, there's a 1 in 10,000 diffusion
rate for radon in water into the air.  So we should expect our airborne
radon level to be .6 pCi/L greater than it would be due to gas infiltration.
Since the basement measured at 2.2 pCi/L, that's a worst case level of 2.8
upstairs, which is 3x the average rate but still below the "threshold
of concern" at 4 pCi/L.

We still want to reduce our radon level - I'm not paranoid about radiation
but let's not forget that there is no such thing as a "safe" level, besides
which levels vary widely over time so we don't really know if this is the
worst case level.  

The EPA guy said that you can get water filters that are >90% effective
for removing radon.  However, it'll cost you - about $1K for a charcoal
filter or $3K for an aerator (including installation).  The problem with
the charcoal system is that eventually you have to replace the filter,
and by then it is hazardous waste.  

So, except in really severe cases, it is more cost effective to reduce
radon gas infiltration than to try to take it out of your water.
Sealing the basement (including sealing the concrete floor) is the
first thing to try.

If you want a brochure on radon reduction, call the Mass Radiation Control Unit
(727-6214) and ask for publication #EPA 625/5-87/019, "Radon Recuction
Techniques for Detached Houses".  They may also have a separate brochure on
radon in water.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    RE .15 RGB::SIELER
    
    	You are correct in stating that radon in water itself is not
    a great health risk.  Radon is gas that easily dissolves in water, 
    especially under pressure as found in deep wells.  However the
    danger occurs during your morning shower.
    	A cheap and effective way of removing dissolved gasses and solvents
    from water is a process called steam stripping.  You first pressurize
    the water, heat it, then expand it through a nozzle.  The problem
    is that lots of people steam strip out the radon during their morning
    shower.  You breath radon gas as you get clean.
    	I'm not sure on safe levels of radon in water or the effectiveness
    of steam stripping of radon gas.  It is something that I would check
    into. 

    					=Ralph=

    I've talked to a Mass. state guy who seems to be in charge of radon
    inspections/advice for Eastern MA and he claims that the 'radioactive
    shower in the morning' is basically a myth. If you have radon in
    your water and are taking a shower, it diffuses into the air, you
    breathe some in and you then breathe it out. The danger with radon
    is that it decays into radon daughters which are solids. These stick
    to things like house dust and you breathe these in and they stick
    in your lungs, where radioactive decay occurs, irradiating your lungs.
    The key is that the breakdown of radon to it's daughters takes awhile
    and occurs after your shower. This is NOT to say that it can't raise
    the radon level in your home to unacceptable levels, just that you
    don't necessarily get a real hot shot by being near the water when
    the radon off-gases. FWIW.
     

re Note 340.18 by CIMNET::NMILLER:

>     The danger with radon
>     is that it decays into radon daughters which are solids. These stick
>     to things like house dust and you breathe these in and they stick
>     in your lungs, where radioactive decay occurs, irradiating your lungs.
>     The key is that the breakdown of radon to it's daughters takes awhile
>     and occurs after your shower. 

Actually, it takes place while the radon is dissolved in the water, too.  Thus
the water will have some level of "radon daughters" (doesn't it ever have
sons?) in it as well as radon.  Since these children are very small (at the
atomic level) they probably don't settle out of the water quickly.


To change the subject slightly:  I have tested my basement and the air has a
moderate amount of radon -- enough to be concerned and to take simple measures
to seal and ventilate.  How does one seal a basement floor (poured concrete)?
Are there sealers made just for this purpose?  Or does a waterproofing sealer
work?

My basement floor has one 10-foot long crack that is about 1/4 inch at its
widest.  I'd like to seal it with something like silicone caulk.  Actually, the
kind of stuff I'd prefer is sold by GE as a car windshield sealer.  Unlike the
construction silicone, it flows a bit and thus seals cracks better.  But I have
only seen it in small tubes in auto parts stores, and I'd need more like a
couple of caulking gun cartridges.  Has anybody seen this in cartridges?

Thanks,
Bob

>My basement floor has one 10-foot long crack that is about 1/4 inch at its
>widest.  I'd like to seal it with something like silicone caulk.  Actually, the
>kind of stuff I'd prefer is sold by GE as a car windshield sealer.  Unlike the
>construction silicone, it flows a bit and thus seals cracks better.  But I have
>only seen it in small tubes in auto parts stores, and I'd need more like a
>couple of caulking gun cartridges.  Has anybody seen this in cartridges?

I don't know if it's any good at sealing out radon but I just 
used some GE Silicone II caulking to seal my basement bulkhead.  
It said it was specifically for cement and came in a light gray 
pigment.  GE makes a whole line of types for window and doors, 
cement, glass, etc.  The only difference I noticed was the 
pigment.  Even the list of materials that the caulk will adhere 
to is the same on all the variations.  Anyone know of a 
significant difference other than the color? 

Anyway I really think the GE Silicone II in the caulking gun
cartridges is the same as the stuff in the car windshield tubes. 
It seems just as fluid to me.  I would almost bet that the the 
clear version for windows and doors comes off the same 
manufacturing line as the car window sealer.

-JFK-

re Note 340.20 by PARITY::KLEBES:

> It seems just as fluid to me.  I would almost bet that the the 
> clear version for windows and doors comes off the same 
> manufacturing line as the car window sealer.

Perhaps you got an old tube.  The windshield sealer I got had approximately the
same viscosity when wet as standard Silicone II, but when applied in a vertical
bead it would run (slowly -- it did not immediately run, but when I came back
20 minutes later it had), whereas the Silicone II would not.  (Also, the
Silicone II I tried first on my windshield leak did not seal the leak, whereas
the windshield sealer I subsequently applied in the same manner to to the same
leak did seal it.)

Does the GE 800 customer service number that they mention with their appliances
also answer questions about the Silicone products?  What about nuclear weapons?

Bob

Suddenly Radon has entered my anxiety closet! 
    
    We're in the process of relocating, and our house failed the 'Radon
    test'.  Merrill Lynch had a test done and our house teste at 10.88,
    with 4.0 being acceptable. For all those of you who are contemplating
    a move with Digital picking up the tab, bear in mind that nowadays
    Digital has tests run on all tests ALL houses in New Hampshire (that
    are being purchased for relocating purposes) (not sure about Massachusetts)
    and they won't even extend an offer until the house passes with
    an acceptable level (I.E. less than 4).
         
    (BTW, the home is in New Ipswich, New Hampshire)
    
    I spent 40 minutes on the phone with an engineer who installs Radon
    removal systems in New Hampshire, and he said that if you are going
    to seal cracks in a foundation with Caulk, use Butly Ethylene
    'Architectural Style' Caulking.  He said that silicone doesn't adhere
    to the cement as well and doesn't seal as well over time.
    
    There are two company's that Digital's home purchase company has
    as purveyors of Radon removal equipment that will help YOU solve
    YOUR problem, for a price of course. They are:
    
    Dusseault Engineering (603)889-7151
    	( I spoke with Rob Dilella - very helpful)
    
    Sandy River Refrigeration (603) 673-6227
    	( Attn: Bob Weeks - I called at 4:30PM and no answer...)
    
                                                                 
    I'l let y'all know what transpires...
    
    
    Are there others who have been prodded by the Radon finger of fate
    when they try to sell their homes? 
    

    You will probably find that the radon test is required now for all
    Digital relos, regardless of the state in which you are in.
    
    I just moved from Colorado and Homequity required the test be done
    there as well.
    
    /am

where did you get the Radon test?

re .22:

And I trust that you are retesting?

    re .24
    
    The Water Test company in Manchester NH sells radon test kits for
    water and for air.  I don't have the address or phone number handy.
    
    Steve

    Does Digital test it's own facilities with equal vigor ?
    

    Re .26
    
    WaterTest is in Manchester at 1-800-H20-TEST.
    
    pbm
    

    If you're being relocated by Digital (as I am now) you can go ahead
    and spend all the money you want testing, but the only one that
    counts is the test that Merrill Lynch commissions and DEC pays for.
    I thought about doing one of those canister tests, and my Merrill
    Lynch advisor said that I should go ahead and let them have the
    re-test done, since that was the only test they would look at in
    deciding if our house was at a safe level.
    
    At the moment, our plan of action is to have Dussault Engineering
    come out and inspect our basement, advise on how to properly seal
    it up (Butyl Caulk and painting with Latex).  Then we will have
    it re-tested and if it is above 4.0, have a more expensive system
    (that's a guaranteed solution) installed.  
    
    It's interesting that the EPA puts out some publications for homeowners
    about reducing Radon levels in the home and some specific guidelines.
    The engineering firms that do this use those same guidelines.  I
    asked the relo folks if it was acdeptable for me, being the homeowner,
    to implement some of the EPA's suggestions and then re-test. They
    said it was OK for me to do the work, but I would have to get a
    letter from one of the professional firms saying that they had advised
    me as to how to apply the fix (materials such as caulk).  The retesting
    can be done, but ONLY after one of these firms has come out and
    inspected, advised some changes I could do myself, and/or installed
    one of the more expensive systems to address a Radon problem.
    
    The potential expense to me appears to be about $200 for Caulk and
    Paint, and if this doesn't solve the problem, $3500-$5000 for a
    more elaborate solution.  
    
    Referring to previous notes, it appears that whether you are a believer
    or not, The EPA feels that the invisible gas Radon is a potential
    health hazard.  
    
    More as things develop...
    
    Cheers,
    
    Gil
    

    Just an aside...
    
    If I remember right, a couple of years ago someone determined that
    Radon sticks to tobacco leaves.  Now it's primarily harmful in the
    lungs (alpha emitter = carcinogen), so if you burn tobacco and inhale
    the smoke... the conclusion was that Radon was the principal cause
    of lung cancer among smokers!
    
    Maybe it's not exactly true, but I'd not like _my_ house to fill
    up with it!
            -Mass. resident, not on top of NH granite

    
    RE: .30  "-Mass.resident, not on top of NH granite"
    
    Massachusetts has lots of granite too!  Parts of Mass. have shown
    to have very high radon levels.  The only way you can really know whether
    you have a radon problem or not is to test for it.
            
    

    Before I paid a contractor to start on radon reduction, I'd see
    if there's a state agency that will offer any help. In Mass, you
    can get a guy to come to your home with a 'real-time' tester that
    may help pinpoint the source of the gas (do the contractors use
    these?) You may not need to seal up everything. It seems to me that 
    a contractor might have a conflict of interest here.
    
    In my home I found levels of 8 in the basement and about 3.5 in
    the living areas - acceptable, but i'd like them lower (I used
    AIR-CHEK testers, 1-800-AIR-CHEK). I talked to the guy from the 
    state (MA - Bill Bell (413)-586-7525), and although my numbers
    weren't high enough to justify a visit from him, he gave me some
    advice. I ended up doing a diagnostic test by placing one of the
    air testers directly over a basement drain that we both suspected.
    (it connects to the same drywell as a perimeter drain around the
    house does - can you say 'radon collector'?). It just came back 
    with a reading of 626! I'm assuming that sealing this drain will 
    reduce my overall levels - we'll see. I'd worry that a contractor 
    might not be too motivated to test for these simple (and inexpensive) 
    fixes.
    
    Nick Miller

    I'm purchasing a home in Hollis, N.H. and the radon reading in the
    basement is 14.6 pico-Curies.  I really like the house but wonder
    if it is wise to go through with this transaction when a known problem
    exists.  The buyer is willing to cure the problem and get the level
    below 4.0 with installation of a sub slab systems, or beyond with
    an air to air exchanger, if required.  I'm concerned with the resales
    value of the property.  Your opinion on whether it's better to walk
    away from this situation would be appreciated.m

>    exists.  The buyer is willing to cure the problem and get the level
>    below 4.0 with installation of a sub slab systems, or beyond with
>    an air to air exchanger, if required.  

I assume you mean the seller, since you say that you're buying.  If they 
can install something that will get the level down to what's considered 
acceptable then I don't see why you would want to walk.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Well, we've decided to go ahead with the house.  The seller (you're
    correct!!) is going to correct the problem and we feel confident
    that the level can be brought down below 4.  Thanks for the support.
    
    P.S.  I called the lawyer to cancel and then my wife called about
    1 hour later after she did her own networking with her friends
    (different from my friends!).  She made an independent decision
    to go forward which is good.  Of course, I believe my reason was
    "more informed" but we did come to the same conclusion.

I'm curious - has anyone tried sending in a control sample along with their
basement air sample? For instance, sample some outdoor air, the basement air,
and send in both samples. This would help in the "believability" of numbers like
3 pico-curies.

    Well, I'm starting to collect a farly sizeable library of radon-related
    publications. I have both pamphlets from the EPA that are addressed
    to homeowners and the tachnical bulletin for contractors and
    Home-owners who feel that they can perform this type of work (radon
    reduction).  
    
    The guidelines say that if you have below 4 picocuries, it's nothing
    to worry about.  If you have between 4 and 20, then followup
    measurements are recommended to determine the AVERAGE exposure in
    your house. 
    
    I finished caulking the basement last saturday and the testers are
    coming out this week sometime.
    
    gil
    

    My house   inspector   (Paul   Maida   from   Cornell  Inspectors)
    recommended   sealing  cracks  in  the  basement  with  "Hydraulic
    Cement".  I  haven't  done the job yet, and don't have the written
    recomendation in front of me, so this is a good guess as to how to
    do it.

    With a cold chisel, increase the width of the crack to about 1/4".
    Mix  a  small  batch of hydraulic cement as it has a short working
    life.  Push it into the crack (with a putty knife?). It expands as
    it sets to fully seal the crack.

    Others have  told  me  that this is the best way to seal cracks in
    cement,  and  warned  me  that hydraulic cement isn't cheap, but I
    don't know how much it costs.

--David

>                          -< Hydraulic cement to seal cracks >-

>        With a cold chisel, increase the width of the crack to about 1/4".

    It's not quite that simple.  See note 612.2.
    
>        Others have  told  me  that this is the best way to seal cracks in
>    cement,  and  warned  me  that hydraulic cement isn't cheap, but I
>    don't know how much it costs.
    
    It's not too expensive unless you plan to build a foundation with
    it.  It's around $10 for a gallon can.  It's important to only mix
    as much as you're going to use in about 5 minutes.  That's how long
    it takes to start hardening.
    

    WELL, the results are in.  We passed the Radon check at 3.42 Picocuries
    per liter in the lowest corner of the basement.  When I caulked
    the cracks (per instructions from a firm that installs air exchange
    systems) I used a butyl-based caulk (Guard-House) and sealed up
    every crack I could find. I also used a can of foam (non-UFFI) sealent
    around the larger openings where pipes come through the walls.
    The testing company (Radon Resources) came back in Thursday
    morning and took a 24 hour reading.  Their counter is manufactured
    by Eberline Instrument in New Mexico (Either Albuq or Santa Fe)
    which is plugged into another device (a 'computer', as described
    by the testing company rep) whioch then produces a paper tape with
    the readings every 1/2 hour or so.  The final reading is an average
    over the sample period).                  
    
    I asked the Merrill Lynch relocation rep how much the test was costing
    Digital each time... ($195.00).
                            
    If we had a reading over 4.0, the next step was to paint the basement
    with an Epoxy-based paint (per EPA guidelines) and then re-test.
    If that test failed, then it gets expensive. The air exchange system
    was going to cost about $3600.  
    
    One thing to note is that our readings were worst case reading
    taken in the basement (currently unfinished). According to the EPA,
    readings should be taken on all levels of the house to determine
    the AVERAGE exposure for someone living there.  Ours was 3.42 for
    the basement only.
    
    We went out to dinner and celebrated Friday night...  
                                   
    

re Note 340.37 by TPUNIV::DAVIS:

>     If we had a reading over 4.0, the next step was to paint the basement
>     with an Epoxy-based paint (per EPA guidelines) and then re-test.
>     If that test failed, then it gets expensive. The air exchange system
>     was going to cost about $3600.  
    
Are you allowed to use any of the EPA-recommended methods for reducing radon
concentration, as listed in their literature?

Bob

    Seems like there are two Radon notes in this conference....
    
    Here's a synopsis of our Radon experience..
    
    We're in the process of moving out of New Hampshire and as part
    of the relocation process, Digital paid for a test to be done in
    the lowest part (basement) of house.  The test costs $195 and is
    done by Radon Resources using a counter manufactured by Eberline.
    The test takes 24 hours and records the working level, which is
    translated into Picocuries per liter. Our basement registered 10.88
    pc/l.  We arranged with Dusseault Engineering (one of the firms
    that Digital has listed as being qualified to help solve Radon
    problems.  The Dusseault rep came out and advised us as to how to
    seal the cracks in the basement slab and walls, the proper materials
    to use (Butyl based caulk - I found this in a readily available
    product called Guard House, at Grossmans and Belletetes).  I spent
    a Saturday sealing up all the cracks and Digital sent the Radon
    Resources tester out again.  This time our basement registered 3.42
    pc/l.  If we had failed the test I was going to the next step which
    is to paint the basement with an Epoxy-based paint, and then re-test.
    If painting had not solved the problem, the last resort was an air
    exchanger from Dusseault, costing approximately $3600.
    
    Two points I'd like to make.  Regardless of your attitude about
    Radon, if you are planning on relocating and you may be expecting
    Digital to buy your house if you can't sell it, be aware that you
    have to get the pc/l level down below 4 (probably a worst case,
    but prudent nonetheless.  I managed to get them
    to agree to a stepwise solution to the problem, starting with the
    cheapest method (caulking, about $20.00), then to painting (about
    $200) and then to air exchange (about $3600).  The Merrill Lynch
    counselor got Digital to agree to pay for the tests each time.
    
    After speaking with a few folks, I believe that in the long run
    the Air Exchanger is a better solution than sub-slab suction.  
    Besides the fact that it is circulating fresh air into the house,
    it also acts as a de-humidifier in the basement.  It also could
    be used as a selling point.  On the other hand, Chris Pirie at the
    New Hampshire Radon Project office felt that Sub Slab suction was
    more appealing.  Kind of a 'prevent it from coming in' attitude
    rather than 'get rid of wnat comes in'.
                                                    
    Anyway, we passed...
                                                                  

    re: -2
    
    Congratulations!  I am glad to hear somebody passed the radon test
    and is now a home owner.
    
    I have backed out of two deals now with bad radon test results.
    
    Roger

    re .28
    
    Do you have telpephone numbers for Radon Resources and Dusseault
    Engineering?  Where are they each located?
    
    In a previous note you mentioned a foam which you used to close large
    openings.  What is the brand name of this and where did you buy it?
    
    Carol

    I described my "radon saga' in reply .20, and promised to follow
    up with the results of my 3-month Alpha Trak test.  I am delighted
    to report that my "cheap fixes" (caulking, concrete and
    weatherstripping) really paid off!  I ran three tests, one in the
    basement, one on the first floor and a third on the second floor.
    The results came back at 5.1, 2.3 and 2.0 pCi/l, respectively.
    
    Needless to say, we are much relieved.  I am still weighing whether
    to take additional steps in the basement or not, but am not much
    concerned since we don't have any living space down there.  I also
    think it's important to note that I've still got an ongoing meintenance
    task....new cracks could open up in the floor, or the caulking give
    way.  I plan to check for cracks and re-test every couple of years
    (if I can figure out a way to remember!)

	I started reading this note at about .17, so pardon me if this
	is already covered....

	Almost everybody in my neighborhood (in Merrimack, NH) has a
	sump pump in the basement.  Mine is sitting in the corner of
	the basement in a 2'x2' hole, about 10" deep.  This sounds to
	me like a major source of radon (although I haven't done any tests
	at all).

	What have other sump-pump home-owners done?

	-- Jim

re Note 1814.30 by CIMNET::TOMPKINS:

>     I am delighted
>     to report that my "cheap fixes" (caulking, concrete and
>     weatherstripping) really paid off!  

How about EPA-recommended treatment #1 -- opening a couple of basement windows?

Bob

    Rob Dilella at Dussault engineering told me that just about ANY
    hole in the floor is a potential opening for RADON.  Besides sealing
    the cracks with Butyl Caulk, I also squirted some foam around the
    openings where the septin line went out and the well lines came
    in.
    
    Re: .39 (I think)  All of the techniques I used (or was planning)
    were approved by the EPA.  In fact, Merrill Lynch Relocation wouldn't
    accept a new test or the results unless I had a letter from an
    engineering consultant explaining what I should do. Rob Dilella
    wrote me the letter advising how to seal the 'numerous cracks',
    and also quoting the air exchange system ($3600, which BTW I didn't
    have to buy).  I had spoken with Chris Pirie at the NH Radon Project,
    and he had advised me on step II, which was sealing with Epoxy Paint,
    which means paint everything. This was the next step, which we didn't
    have to do, since we passed...
    
    cheers,
    
    gil
    

    Yep, opening the windows *might* cure the problem, but it also doubles
    the amount you spend heating the house.  In all of the EPA pubs
    I've read they desacribe opening windows, and in the next paragraph
    outline the undesirability of that option due to winter heat loss.
    
    That's what air exchangers are for.
    

re Note 1814.32 by TPUNIV::DAVIS:

>                         -< Hmmm...do you do that Bob? >-

Right now I am. :-)


>     Yep, opening the windows *might* cure the problem, but it also doubles
>     the amount you spend heating the house.  

I doubt that it's DOUBLE -- for an unheated, insulated basement, anyway.

Besides, the immediate problem isn't removing the radon, it is selling the
house.  If the buyer insists upon an EPA-recommended way of reducing the radon
to the acceptable level, opening the windows is certainly the cheapest.

Bob

    I have the EPA publication 'Radon Reduction Techniques...' and besides
    various reduction techniques, there's a section that explains where
    Radon comes from etc. Is anyone interested in this type of info?
    If so, I'll type it in here...
    
    Cheers,
    
    Gil
    
    

I just tested my house for Radon using AIR-CHEK (one of many approved by
CU, for what its worth).  It cost $11.95 + .25cent stamp.  It was easy,
quick, and professionally handled.  It was SO EASY that I recommend
everyone try it.  All you do is send them a check for $11.95 and they 
quickly send you a test unit to hang in your basement for a week (keep the
room closed up during the test).  You mail the test unit in (it seals up as
an envelope) and 5 days later, you get the results.  You can call them at
1-800-AIR-CHEK, or just send a letter like: 


	Air Chek 
	BX 2000 
	Arden, NC  28704 
	
	Dear Sir:
	
	I am sending a check for $11.95 for one radon test kit, to be sent by
	return mail to the above address. 
	

I get no commission, but I was impressed with the smoothness and ease 
of the operation.  

>    < Note 340.40 by ATSE::MORGAN "Silence, the sound of peace" >
                           -< *BIG* whole in floor >-

>	Almost everybody in my neighborhood (in Merrimack, NH) has a
>	sump pump in the basement.  Mine is sitting in the corner of
>	the basement in a 2'x2' hole, about 10" deep.  This sounds to
>	me like a major source of radon (although I haven't done any tests
>	at all).

>	What have other sump-pump home-owners done?


    Is there anyone out there that can respond to this?  I'm in the
    same situation.  Also, where the sump-pump resides is where my
    well water comes into the house.  If this is closed over, do you
    cement over the incoming well water pipe?
    
    

    I just called Air Chek, as described above, and the price was $9.95
    each or $22.75 for three. I also got their water testing kit for
    about $11.00. They said they would send them out today (8/29) and
    I should get them in about 3 to 4 days. Can't beat their prices.
    I too have a high radon count but want to retest with the cellar
    and living area windows open alittle (summer time test). I want
    to see if the high levels are substantially lower during the 3 seasons
    when I can leave a window or two open without my heating costs going
    through the roof. If the results aren't substantially lower, I'm
    going to have to do some serious ventilating decisions. I'm also
    testing my water for the first time and wonder what can be done
    if the results are high. Here in New England you have to be concerned
    aboutyour water source freezing so outside aeration methods probably
    won't work during the winter. Has anyone had high radon levels in
    their water and what have you done about it?

tell us about their water test...$11 sounds very reasonable (too 
reasonable?)

    
    
    The Massachusetts radon test results are in and all over the papers
    today. Essentially the verdict is that 1 out of every 4 homes tested
    have unsafe levels of radon present. The EPA and DPH are urging every-
    one to have their homes tested and corrective measures taken if high
    levels are found.
    I, therefore, have a couple of questions...
    
    Have you had your home tested?
    What were the results and do you trust them?
    Who or what did you contact for testing? 
    
    (there was an information number in the paper today: 727-6214)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rob
                     

The news report I heard said that 1 in 4 homes has radon, but only 1 in 100
has dangerous levels of it.

    
    
    
    You're absolutely right. I misread the article. Even though, the state-
    wide estimate is 22,000 homes with unsafe levels. 
    
    
    Rob
    

    I rang the number in .0 - a woman took my name and address and hung
    up - I didnt get a chance to tell her what I was looking for - not
    that I knew anyway !. I guess they'll send me something ( respirator
    ?? )
    
    Rod

    An article in a newspaper once suggested that, have your test done by
    someone who only does testing.  They will have nothing to gain if they
    should make a *mistakes* with the results.  If they do testing AND repairs,
    the article suggested that one could easily be victimized.  
    
    Mark 
    

BTW: this is discussed somewhere else in this file, but anyway

I called 1-800 air chek and, like consumer reports, was very happy 
with their service, speed, and price.  (I'm one of the other 3, 
luckily)

    	Am I the only one who thinks the RADON issue is getting exaggerated
    into the latest crises of the month?  Radon can be a serious problem
    but I think calling for immediate testing of all homes a little
    extreme.  The crisis mentality leave the public confused and opens
    the door to misinformation, and more importantly, fraud.  
    	First I think the government organizations should publish
    information about the possible dangers and sources of Radon.
    Projecting total cancer deaths make good headlines, but impedes
    the flow of real information.  
    	Does anyone have details of the test method rather than just
    the 1 in 4 result?  I've tested my home with both the short term
    and alpha track test kits.  The short term tests reveled no Radon.
    The long term, alpha track test, reveled only a low level in the
    fully sealed basement.
    	The reports recommend testing before purchasing a house, an
    idea I agree with.  However the potential for mistakes and fraud
    are great.  Short term tests only take a snap shot of concentration
    and may not reflect actual conditions.  What is to keep a potential
    seller from opening all the windows during a long term test?  I
    guess the bottom line is to be informed, careful, and wary of people
    selling solutions to a problem that is difficult to detect.
    
    					=Ralph=

    re.6 I agree but you have to admit it is a refreshing change from
    AIDS headlines....
    
    -j
    

    
    	RE: .6  Am I the only one...
    
    	Nope, I agree with you.  I'd like to see some test results that
    	show the number of increased cancer rates, and difference in
    	life spans between those who live in a radon environment and
    	those who live radon free.

    I am going to predict that we will soon find out this latest study was
    funded by the American Tobacco industry.  They will use this study in
    the near future to say that cigarettes haven't been killing people,
    it's been yucky basements all along.

Note 1111.74  Home_work keyword directory - see reply #1 for details    74 of 96
                                  -< SAFETY >-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
   340  TRACTR::DOWNS        27-AUG-1986    42  Radon Gas Developments ?????
...
  1814  TRACTR::DOWNS        21-DEC-1987    37  Getting Radon Gas Out!!
...

    Re .6
    
    I'm with you, Ralph.  I think it's been invented by the same folks
    who brought us the swine flu epidemic that never happened.  I consider
    it to be reaching paranoia stage.  After all, the stuff comes out of
    the rocks, and here I am living in the Granite State - what do I
    do, move to another planet?  Until I see hard numbers (no, I'm not
    holding my breath) I can easily envision this as one of those
    situations where, if I find a source of radon in my cellar, and
    move in next to it 24 hours a day, I stand a .0000000000000000000001%
    greater chance of getting lung cancer than if I live in a Class
    Ten clean room.
    
    pbm
    

    So far I've seen a lot of suggestions about what to do with homes
    built on ledge. But how do you protect yourself when the foundation
    itself is made of granite? It would seem to me that plugging the
    holes might be a bit useless.

    Here's what my ears heard last Monday, from the tube: "The EPA
    levels were set at that particular number because we don't really
    know what level is safe, but that's the limit that present-day
    technology can measure."  
    
    Understand why I'm waiting for hard info?
    
    pbm
    

    re -1
    
    Yeah, basically what they're saying is "Rocks cause cancer." !!!!
    
    Stupid.
    
    Mike D

    Gee . . . Sounds just like a repeat of the "X-Rays from TV" scenario
    back in the early '70's. (Both the hype, and the method of establishing
    "safe levels".  
    
    Guess we might expect some Federal rulings from DHHS if it continues.
    (Not that it changes anything for those who've been "exposed" over
    the last eons!)
    
    Since we don't have any hard info on X-Rays, but still have the
    reg's, I'm skeptical that we'll ever see it for Radon.
    
    My 2�
    
    Bill

    Yes, they are saying rocks cause cancer.
    
    Because rocks DO cause cancer.
    
    There is sort an inverse to the old saw about "just because you're 
    paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you". I agree that the 
    press tends to get caught up in this kind of story, and blows it up 
    out of proportion to other equally significant stories at the same 
    time, but just because the press *may* be exaggerating doesn't mean 
    they're making it all up.
    
    Or perhaps you believe that asbestos is just another benign 
    substance (it's a mineral, and minerals don't cause cancer, right?), 
    or that tobacco is just a vegetable.

    
    	I haven't exactly been "on-top" of this radon issue; other than
    	what I have read in my local paper.  Here in Pittsburgh PA they
    	are claiming that 1 in 3 houses have some (?) level of radon
   	gas.
    
    	I personally lean toward the paranoia argument, but I have 2
   	questions:
    
    	1)  Since radon gas is caused by the decay of uranium in the
    	    ground, and since this is a natural occurance:
    	    Why haven't people been dying off from radon caused cancer
    	    for centuries?  (i.e. Why is it suddenly such a "big" problem?)
    
    	2)  What can really be done to cure the problem if you have
    	    radon gas in your house?
    
	I bought my house from my grandparents.  They lived in it for
    	30 years, and both lived to be in their 80's and niether of
    	them died from cancer.  I doubt testing is worth it.
    
    						Jack.
    

>    	1)  Since radon gas is caused by the decay of uranium in the
>    	    ground, and since this is a natural occurance:
>    	    Why haven't people been dying off from radon caused cancer
>    	    for centuries?  (i.e. Why is it suddenly such a "big" problem?)

    Two answers to this: (a) they have, but (b) with tighter houses for 
    better energy conservation, there is far less air infiltration in 
    modern houses than there was in the past. Air exchange with the 
    outside prevents a sufficient buildup of radon gas to produce 
    dangerous levels. Tight houses make it easier for dangerous levels 
    to appear. Houses heated by wood, for example, move a tremendous 
    amount of air through the house. So the concern is that the number 
    of radon-related deaths may increase. Also, (c) the problem wasn't 
    recognized before. It's hard for it to have been a big problem if 
    nobody knew it existed. There have always been people who died of 
    lung cancer despite not being smokers, and were dismissed as 
    statistical flukes. (On top of that, radon exposure will increase 
    the risk of lung cancer in those people who ARE dumb enough to smoke.)
    
>    	2)  What can really be done to cure the problem if you have
>    	    radon gas in your house?

    Generically, one or both of two ways: (a) identify and seal cracks 
    and other openings through which radon can enter the house, and (b) 
    increase the amount of air exchange in the house (through fans, 
    air-air heat exchangers, moving into a tent, etc.). Specifics 
    obviously vary from house to house.

    Re .15
    
    Your comments are valid; my issue is that the numbers don't add
    up.  Yes, radon causes cancer.  How much?  Over what period of
    time?  Compared to what else?  The (unreliable) press is saying
    1/3 or 1/4 of the homes are a concern; this is a much greater
    percentage than can be accounted for by all of the homes built
    since energy conservation became popular in the mid '70s.  Yes,
    somewhere in this (I gonna say it again) paranoia there is a
    grain of truth, waiting to be shined up and trotted out for
    reasonable people to evaluate and make thoughtful decisions,
    but it hasn't happened yet.
    
    pbm
    

    
    	Another issue to consider is that just because RADON is high
    in your cellar of basement doesn't mean that you are in big trouble.
    I keep my cellar door closed all the time and go down to do laundry
    and work in my shop.  Radon levels drop off dramatically from the
    basement to the first then second floor of the house.  I spend over
    75% of my time in my house sleeping in my second floor bedroom.
    The windows are open in my house for at least 4 out of the 12 months.
    	Radon can be a big problem in some cases.  I realized the situation
    was out of hand when my Grandmother called in a fit of panic about
    getting her 7th floor apartment radon tested.
    
    					=Ralph=

    re .13
    
    Paul,
    
    of course I'm not saying asbestos is a benign substance. But there
    is hard evidence to prove that it causes cancer. For radon we've
    heard nothing but speculation on whether or not it increases you're
    probability of contracting lung cancer from .000001% to .000002%.
    Frankly, I have more pressing things to worry about. Forget the radon
    and wear your seat belt.                                        
    
    Mike D

    What I want to know is how accurate are the figures all you people
    have been citing?  Are they made-up fantasy numbers or quotes? 
    Are you really talking about ".000001%" or maybe 1%?
    
    Has anyone heard (or does anyone know from personal test results)
    how pervasive the gas is?  I am aware that good ventilation is a
    solution, so I presume that reasonably good seals on doors between
    floors helps and that well-sealed foundations et al in uranium-rock
    areas are intelligent.  I also am assuming that apartment buildings
    are probably at low risk because of ample "leaks" and no basements,
    but is that a reasonable assumption?  The articles I've seen (not
    huge numbers of them) all focus on family residences.  I'm curious
    about workplaces and apartments.
    
    Sherry

Re various:

The EPA warning was that Radon testing should be done for apartments
only on the second floor and below.  My local paper made that point
clear; maybe other papers didn't.  Also, I think the statistic was
that 1 in 4 houses have a level of radon that should be reduced,
while 1 in 100 have a *very dangerous* level of radon.  I'd check
what my paper said, but that paper has gone for pet cage lining.

Stripping away the sensationalism, the EPA warning is basically this:
we used to not know about radon in homes, and then we thought that it
only occurred in certain restricted areas.  Now we've found that there
are homes in all parts of the country with high levels of radon, and many 
more homes than we expected have lesser but still dangerous levels of 
radon.  So don't be complacent, you aren't safe anywhere, and it's far 
better to spend $15 on testing than to take even a relatively small chance
of developing lung cancer.

I think my paper even stated statistics about likelihood of getting
lung cancer from Radon, but I've forgotten them; however, I do remember
that the EPA warning was that Radon is the second greatest cause of
lung cancer.  As far as it being unproven that Radon causes cancer,
give me a break.  We've know for a long time that exposure to alpha
particles causes cancer, and Radon gas, once it attaches to dust
particles and lodges in your lungs, emits alpha particles into your
lungs.  I presume research has been done to quantify the effect;
I know that research is being done.  

re 14:  I bet your grandparents didn't have a whole house fan, or
tight caulking, or other modern features that make the house air
pressure significantly lower than the outside air pressure.  I'd
guess that the house now has at least one of those features.
That increases the radon risk right there (lower inside 
pressure it sucks in radon from the ground).  Do you seriously
believe that since it didn't happen to them it can't happen to you?

However, I agree; given a choice between seatbelts and checking
for radon, I'd use my seatbelt.  

	Luck,
	Larry

re .39, .41:

Sorry, but the EPA "level of concern" is set at 4 piC/l (picoCuries per liter)
which is quite a bit higher than the smallest level that can be measured, and 
also quite a bit higher than the radon concentration in the atmosphere --
over an order of magnitude in both cases.  Again, I regret that I cannot
cite my source, but it's already hit the trash.  Granted, any such limit
is pretty arbitrary, no matter how it is defined.  I did read that it can
be very hard to reduce radon levels below 4 piC/l.

    RE. .17 and others
    	Contrary to what you may believe the issues around RADON gas
    will have a SIGNIFICANT impact on you....at least when you go to
    sell your house.
    	There has been so much talk about this that buyers have come
    to consider this as a reason to NOT buy a particular house.....
    a prime example of this is Home Equity which is the buyer of your
    house in case DEC transfers you and you don't sell to someone else...
    RADON tests (and "acceptable" levels of RADON") are required before
    they will purchase your property.
    	Even if YOU don't think it is a health hazard....so many people
    believe that it is a problem that it could seriously effect your
    financial position when you go to sell.
    Ric
    

    The only reason so many people think that radon is a health hazard
    is because of the overly (read that ridiculous) bizarre sensationalism
    of the press.  They are seeing this as a way to sell their papers,
    hence they will play this to the hilt.  I have seen no valid studies
    that PROVE that any particular level of radon is bad.  I agree with
    many of the others when they say that they have had no reason to
    be concerned before.
    
    Why can't we take new situations like this and do valid studies
    rather than going off half-cocked?  It seems like this will be a
    major issue for a time, and then I would be willing to put money
    it will die down to what it deserves, a minor concern.
    
    Yes, we have tightened our homes significantly over the years. 
    But do you remember the "formaldehyde issue" a few years back? 
    This was the concern about blown-in insulation.  Supposedly many
    people were getting sick because of the fumes caused by overly tight
    houses and the insulation chemical.  I don't seem to hear anyone
    discussing this today.  I believe that radon will be a similar issue.
    
    Ed..
    

    I'd chalange them to find a house built on the ground without some
    radon. What is the new housing trend gonna be stilts? I think it
    will all pass in a short time leaving many trend setting owners
    of air to air heat exchangers in its wake. If its in the atmosphere
    all around you I'd like to know how you're going to eliminate it.
    So we all tear out our basement floors and install a fancy vacume
    system to suck the radon out even faster than before only to dump
    it just outside our homes. I wonder how long it takes to raise the
    levels of radon in the atmosphere when we all mount vacume pumps
    under our basement slabs to pump it out faster than what it would
    normaly flow? I may own my current house the rest of my life but
    I don't have any need to move anyway I like it just fine where I'm
    at. I firmly believe that there isent near the problem the media
    hype makes it out to be. Dont quote me any figures because they
    dont mean squat as this is a very new development and the time hasent
    been there for adequate research to be done.
    Besides who ever told you'd make it out of life alive was wrong
    we all gotta die sometime, cancer just happens to be one of the
    less exciting routes. The stress (of worrying about radon) would
    seem a larger threat to health than the radon itself.
    
    -j

It doesn't matter if you believe in the health effects or not.  They
haven't been fully researched -- fine.  Radon does have a PROVEN
detrimental effect to your property value, as has been pointed out
elsewhere. 

If you approach it from that direction, it becomes a little more clear
if you should worry about it or not.  When it comes time to sell, you
can stand in your kitchen and argue with prospective buyers that radon
isn't a *proven* health hazard, but that won't make them give an offer. 
You can write letters to the bank about how it is all the media's fault,
but it won't make them write the loan.  It may be superstition, but it's
pervasive and there's not a lot you can do about it. 

If you're going to be selling in the near future, or if you want to keep
your options open so you can sell on short notice, then you'll have to
play the radon game. 

>    Yes, we have tightened our homes significantly over the years. 
>    But do you remember the "formaldehyde issue" a few years back? 
>    This was the concern about blown-in insulation.  

It was UFFI -- Urea-formaldehyde foam insulation.  The use of UFFI has 
been severely restricted or outlawed in many states.  Banks often will 
refuse loans on houses with UFFI in them, unless you arrange to have it 
removed as part of the deal.  The reason you don't hear much about it 
these days is because nobody uses it anymore for the above reasons.  The 
analog to radon seems exact.
						>>>==>PStJTT

>If you're going to be selling in the near future, or if you want to keep
>your options open so you can sell on short notice, then you'll have to
>play the radon game. 
 
    Yes, play the game.  All you have to do is leave the windows open
    during the testing period.  What is the lenght of time that it takes
    to conduct a test that would make a bank happy?  What could prevent
    a not honest seller from putting the test strip outside for a few
    days.
    
    					=Ralph=
    

>                                                  What could prevent
>    a not honest seller from putting the test strip outside for a few
>    days.
    
"Honesty" answers the question for me.  But since you assume dishonesty, 
you should broaden the question to "What could prevent a not honest 
seller from doing ANYTHING to make the sale?"  People have been lying, 
hiding, covering up any number of faults, radon is nothing special.  
There are laws that cover fraud in contracts, I imagine they apply to 
lead paint, water in the basement, hidden rights of way and so on as 
well as to falsifying a radon test.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re.24
    It all assumes that I would ever want to sell. Even if I do move
    I would rent it out and continue to own by that time this will be
    ancient history.
    The banks are no doubt in on the scam I mean they have lent capital
    to the upstart vacume pump and A-A HE makers so they have an stake
    in the pot too. Just another form of big brother's control over
    each of our lives. The media has scared everyone to the point that
    they dont wait to get all the facts they feel something has to be
    done ASAP or their going to die of lung cancer. This is most of
    what I object to with the whole "radon scare" and is *the* reason
    I am playing the devils advocate thru this.
    
    I believe my time has a set period here and any actions to extend
    my time will have little effect.( totaly non religeous based remark)
    
    -j
    

    I'm not interested in making judgement concerning wheather or not
    Radon is nothing but a scam, I'm only interested in stopping the
    gas from entering my house and at cost which is as low as possible.
    Someone mentioned that they have heard of a device (service) where
    they can walk around your cellar and locate the hot spots where
    the Radon is entering the cellar. If you know of such a service
    can you pass that info on to us? I'd like to locate the hot spots
    in my cellar to help pin point the sources.

    i think that gort makes an interesting point here.  are we doing
    the environment more harm by pumping this stuff out into the
    atmosphere?
    
    personally i think that breathing emissions from car exhausts,
    factories, etc are just as harmful, but are we going to read in
    the papers 20 years from now that there is too much radiation
    in the atmosphere from years of sucking radon out of the earth?
    
    i'll probably test my basement, and if there's a problem i'll
    probably take whatever passive means i can to correct it (calking
    cracks, etc), but i don't think i'd go for any heat exchangers,
    pumps, fans, etc.
    
    it seems that everything you eat, breath, drink, or touch causes
    cancer nowadays.
    
    bs

    re.29
    THANK YOU!
    I feels good to see that someone is paying attention. Pump it outside
    and eventualy you're going to breath it anyway.
    
    re:others
    Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldent the flow of radon into the
    atmosphere take a quantum jump after we(the citizens of earth) install
    some 5 billion vacume pumps in our basements? Defeating the whole
    purpose? Seems like a temporary fix at best and possibly the root
    of a much larger and unfixable problem to come. Of course we probably
    wont be around then so its ok, right?
    
    FWIW- I have not nor will I attack the idea of sealing possible entrance
    points this makes sense if for no other reason that it helps make
    the basement more water tight.
    
    Those that desire only a fix and little objective opinion are
    respectfuly directed to the phone book where there are many listings
    of people waiting to tell you what you want to hear and take your
    dollars in quanity.
    
    If research data is presented stating facts proving that I'm full
    of crap I will enter a note exclaiming(happily) that I was mistaken
    (wrong) then promptly inhale a concentrated dose of radon which
    is currently building up in my non vacume pump protected basement.
    
    
    -j
    

    There's an article about Radon in this week's (?) issue of TIME
    magazine.  It seemed to me to be more rehash of the same wave-your-
    hands numbers that have already been quoted in this note, but
    you may want to take a look at it.
    
    It's not clear to me how the EPA has decided "X amount is Y amount
    of risk."  With cigrarette smoking, there have been controlled
    studies done over many years, with good statistical basis, so it's
    possible to assess accurately one's increased risk of lung cancer
    if one smokes.  Radon came to people's attention only a few years
    ago.  
    I'm not suggesting that it may not be a problem, but I'm not at
    all sure that statements of the form, "A radon level of X imples
    Y" have much behind them (yet).  

    I'll wave another hand and perpetuate another rumor (no, I don't have the
"facts").
    Radon's harmful effects occur only in concentrated amounts and in confined
areas.  Air currents and ventilation disperse its potency.  Radon in the ground,
or rocks, if there's any there, has been dispersing for the past n millenia.
It's not going to increase - if anything, it will decrease over time, what
with half-lives, and all like that there.
    My "sucking radon out of the ground and spewing it outdoors" will not add
(significantly) to my own or my neighbors' risk of radon-poison, call it what
you will.  The intent is to reduce the concentration indoors, where there is,
in effect, less air to breathe.
    Would you want to put your bed in your garage?  I'm not sure if car exhaust
causes cancer, but I'm not going to take the risk.  I'll continue to vent car
exhaust outdoors, and breathe air as uncontaminated as I can.

re Note 2631.29 by SHOREY::SHOREY:

>     i think that gort makes an interesting point here.  are we doing
>     the environment more harm by pumping this stuff out into the
>     atmosphere?
    
No -- it would have gotten there, anyway.

Most of the Radon is produced far below the surface and gradually diffuses its
way up.  Sub-slab suction is just re-routing that flow around your basement
instead of through it.  Radon is produced by radioactive decay -- you can't
induce more of it to be produced by sucking!

When my house was checked, the consultant who did the checking first checked
the radon level in the soil outside the house about 3 feet from the foundation.
He dug a 4-foot hole and left a test packet in it, with a cover at ground
level, over a weekend.  The test result was 36 picocuries/liter.

Only then did he test the basement itself.  The basement tests out at 12 pc/L.
So the basement floor and foundation are actually blocking most of the flow
already, and diverting it to the adjacent ground.  (It would be interesting,
although extra expense, to test a hole far from the home to see what the
"ambient" is.)

Sub-slab suction and basement sealing, and even putting positive air pressure
into the basement, are all actually doing the same thing:  getting the radon
that would have gone through the basement to go elsewhere.

Bob

    re:30
    	Uh... You are kidding...right?
    Suggesting that radon gas in the atmosphere will take a quantum
    leap if everyone starts sucking it out of their basements is almost
    like saying that if everyone installs sump pumps we'll eventually
    all drown.
    	I've been following this radon thing for several years and would
    like to offer some information.
    
    Q: Why is radon suddenly such a problem?
    A: Radon gas is produced as a by product of the decay of natural 
    radioactive elements in the ground. A certain amount of it is always
    filtering up through the ground. In some areas this concentration
    can be fairly high, in others non-existant. With the increased energy
    awareness in the last 2 decades people have been making greater
    efforts to seal and insulate their homes. In addition some building
    techniques have changed. The net result is that there is less air
    exchange in the typical home today than 20 years ago. If the naturally
    occuring radon gas gets into the basement of very tight home it
    tends to collect, especially in the basement. Once inhaled the radon
    gas brakes down further into compounds that increase the likelihood
    of lung cancer. Risks are greatest for children. Risks increase
    with concentration and legnth of exposure. By some estimates radon
    gas is second leading cause of lung cancer after cigarettes.
                                                                
    Q: How can I determine which neighborhoods/homes are safe?
    A: Testing is really the only way. Your neighbor could have a problem
    and you could be quite safe even if your house is quite close to
    his. In addition test results can vary unpredictably with time.
    It is best to test several times at different times of the year.
    Homes heated with forced hot air are at a greater risk for two reasons:
    first, the heating system may create a negative air pressure in
    the basement that will increase the amount of gas being sucked in
    from the ground (if any), second the system may increase the
    circulation of the basement air throughout the house.
    
    Q: Can I test my own house
    A: Yes. You can send away for a test kit. I looks very similar in
    size and shape to a shoe polish can. You place the opened can in
    the area you want to test for 24-36 hours (I forget the exact time)
    then reseal the can and send it to the testing lab for analysis.
    This costs about $25 per test kit. If I remember I'll post the name
    and address of the lab I used when I tested my house.
    
    Q: If I have Radon gas should I burn down my house and try to collect
    the insurance?
    A: No ;-) (excuse a bit of humor please) There are several things
    that can be done to minimize any risk. The range of things to do
    can cost very little or very much depending on your situation. 
    Caulking and sealing cracks is the first line of defense. Opening
    windows in the basement to increase air circulation will also help.
    More extreme measures call for installation of fans to force the
    air circulation, or the previously mentioned "suction" pipes to
    prevent gas entry in the first place. If all else fails you can
    *stay out of the basement*!
    	Of course the exact measures to take should depend on the severity
    of the problem and the risk it poses to your family. If you are
    elderly, no children it shouldn't matter as the negative effects
    won't have enough time to accumulate. If you have a young family
    with a playroom in the basement you should be more concerned.
    
    	For those interested in my sources, most of this has come from
    listening to reports brodcast on National Public Radio (NPR). Other
    sources are from public broadcast specials, test kit info, and many
    of the same articles that many of you have read in newstand magazines.
              
    	Don't panic,
    	Mark
    

      There  is [yet another] radon article appearing in this week's U S
      NEWS.  If I read it correctly it says  that  the  level  of  radon
      currently accepted as "safe" is not based on any data showing this
      level of exposure (or a higher or lower level!)  to be safe. It is
      simply  the  lowest  level  that  can be achieved practically with
      today's technology.

      So,  is radon dangerous?  One of the strongest techniques of logic
      is "proof by contradiction".  You make an assumption and show that
      it  necessarily leads to a logical contradictions, thus proving it
      false.  If the assumption was a binary condition then you've  show
      its opposite to be true.

      Lets  assume  that radon is dangerous.  Not just mildly hazardous,
      but an out and out life threatening situation to lots  of  people.
      O.K.,  if  this is the case then lots of people must be dying from
      radon exposure, right?  How many people do you know who have  died
      from  radon?   I  know  of no one who has even suffered (let alone
      died) from any condition which was suspected (let alone known)  to
      have  been  aggravated  (let  alone caused) by radon.  Conclusion:
      Radon is not a major problem.

      Now  before  EVERYONE jumps on me, yes, I know the people could be
      dying from radon without that cause being  identified.   I  accept
      that.  I also accept that there are lots of unknown risks in life.
      I also _KNOW_ that  I  have  many  other  clearly  understood  and
      identified problems to deal with. When the dangers of radon become
      better known I may rank it among these problems.  Till  then  I'll
      work on the known problems.

    I have also heard that the use of newly crushed stone under the
    house or blasting to install a foundation in the first place tends
    to increase the level of radon release. Can one therefore expect
    that new homes will have a higher level of radon until things settle
    down under the house?
    

    re .35:
    
    Well, since they die of cancer, and all cancers look about the same
    after they have started, regardless of the initial condition that
    caused the runaway mutation to start up, your logic is a bit flawed.
    Kind of like claiming that cigarette smoke is harmless because people
    don't immediately drop dead of inhaling it.
    
    /Dave
    
    (Hi Charlie - how's things up in ZK)

re .36:

Don't know if new houses have more radon, but new buildings do tend to
have a lot of other nasty stuff at higher than typical levels, eg
formadehyde, which outgasses from a lot of building materials.  Scoffers
aside, a lot of these things have been shown to have have severe effects
on some people.  Personally, I avoid all use of silicone sealers, because
even brief contact with the fumes of curing silicone gives me a migrane.
However, while I've heard cases of widespread illness in new office
buildings (with windows that cannot be opened) I have heard of no such
case involving houses - if you feel woozy, you go out for some air, natch?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I want statistics on NON-Smokers that have had lung cancer where
    other complications such as mineral dust havent been the reason.
    Given all the so-called danger we must have thousands(millions?)
    of sick people that have never smoked,been exposed to asbestos or
    silica particles.
    I assume that all of the people saying radon is a major
    problem have already added extra fiber to their diets since cancer 
    of the colon actually kills more people than lung cancer.
           
    Maybe the tobacco industry invented this to get a bit of the pressure
    off them? I have a book listing medical stitistics(mortality/death
    reports) and it seems that the leading number of lung cancer deaths
    have been in smokers the rest were attributed to asbestos/silacate
    complications. They dont even have a listing for radon caused cancer
    statistics. Maybe they have their heads in the radioactive sands
    like I do??? 
    
    -j(still not convinced)
    

    Random quotes from the aforementioned Time magazine article, 9/26/88:
    "Prolonged exposure to that much radon [an extraordinary 184 picocurie
level] is the rough equivalent of smoking four packs of cigarettes a day or
getting 2,000 chext X rays a year."
    "A number of studies, including data collected from thousands of uranium
miners, have indicated that radon causes between 5,000 and 20,000 lung-cancer
deaths a year, making it the second leading cause of that form of cancer after
smoking.  Cigarette smoking is by far the primary culprit, however, contributing
to 85% of the nearly 140,000 lung-cancer deaths a year in the U.S."
    "John Cooper, environmental-safety manager for the Illinois department of
nuclear safety, suggested that the EPA had acted rashly [re: EPA's conclusion
that in the 17 states surveyed in two studies, 3 million homes have levels
higher than 4 picocuries per liter of air, the federal standard].  ...  'You
could say zero to 20,000 and be more accurate', he said.  'Their numbers are
shaky.'"
    "Even if the number of radon cancer deaths is 5,000, says the EPA, the gas
is still 'among the worst health risks in this country.'"
    "For starters, the EPA's two booklets, _A Citizen's Guide to Radon_ and
_Radon Reduction Methods_ are available from area health offices, which will
provide the names of reputable companies that do radon testing."  [I think I
saw the first-named booklet outside ZKO's health services.]

    Disclaimer:  you (and I) may choose to trust Time's reporters, or not.
No one is claiming that Time is the ultimate authority.  I'm just quoting.
If anyone wants a copy of this article, send your name, mailstop, etc. to
me (address is at the top of the screen).  I'll restrict the demand on internal
mail if it's excessive.

    re .39:
    
    Just saw an article in this weeks Time magazine.  Among the studies
    the EPA is basing its warnings on are studies of radon caused cancer
    in uranium miners.  As for medical statistics, it probably doesn't
    have a radon listing because the phenomenon is relatively new outside
    of mines.  After all, it takes a couple of decades of epidemiological
    data collection and analysis *after* you have figured out a possible
    agent to get a decent feel for its probable affects.
    
    /Dave
    

    It seems to me that working *in* a uranium mine *at* the source
    of the radon emissions would certainly cause problems both from
    the inhaled radon but also the dust of radioactive rocks(mineral).
    Sure dosent sound like any basements I've been in. 
    
    -j(still unconvinced)
    

    re: "drywell" -  How do you seal a drywell whose purpose is to allow
    condensation from the cold water tank to escape?  From prior notes
    this seems to be a major hole in the basement that would allow easy
    entry of radon gas (one note quoted a level of 600 units!).  
    
    Can a weep valve be installed that permits moisture to exit without
    letting gas return?  How about an osmotic membrane or other exotic
    solution?
    
    	RMM
    

    
    
    For those of you thinking about it, B.J.'s has RADON test kits for
    about $8. You buy the kit take the samples and then send the sample
    off somewhere. I don't know if the testing is included in the price.

>        For those of you thinking about it, B.J.'s has RADON test kits for
>    about $8. You buy the kit take the samples and then send the sample
>    off somewhere. I don't know if the testing is included in the price.

    Most True Value hardware stores have them too.  The test is included
    in the price.  You mail the box to a lab in Pennsylvania.
    I mailed mine yesterday.
    

    Where/what is B.J.s
    

    ther is discussion of B.J's wholesale discount purchasing club in
    other notes but briefly it is on RTE9 in Westboro, ma. or RTE 6in
    Johnston, R.I. or in hadrtford, CT. or in Nashua, N.H. 
    It is Spag's and Wonder Food Warehouse rolled into one with room
    to move good lighting and like both excelent buys and some not so
    excelent.
    
    membership is required. you become a member by belonging to a credit
    union, or owning your own business, or by working for government
    or government contractor. 

In Salem NH.

    Source: Boston Globe, Wednesday Oct 5th,
    
    		US is criticized on call for radon tests
    
    Los Angeles Times
    	An unprecedented national health advisory urging almost all
    homeowners in the United States to test their residences for the
    presence of cancer-causing radon gas is coming under growing criticism
    from some scientists, state officials and the Us Department of Energy.
    	Based on available evidence, they say, the testing recommendation
    issued jointly last month by the EPA and the surgeon general's office
    was not warranted.  
    	They also question the EPA's radon sampling methods, which they
    say exaggerates he true extent of radon contamination and unnecessarily
    alarms the public.
       "I think the impression people have got here from the EPA press
    releases and press conferences was that this is almost a panic situation"
    said Laura Oatma, a public health engineer at the Minnesota Department
    of Health.
    ....
    ....
    	Some critics sat the call for widespread testing is not justified
    on the basis of the EPA's short term 48 hour measurements, which
    were designed to obtain the highest possible radon reading.
    	The EPA's "methodology is suspect", said Anthony V. Nero Jr.,
    a physicist at the University of California's Lawerence Berkely
    Laboratory.
    ...
    ... 
    
       	That's most of the article, I'm a rotten typist and can't spend
    all day putting this in.
    
    				=Ralph=

Granted, the news accounts were sensationalized.  I seem to recall little
of interest was going on when the announcement was made, except for the
presidential race :-).  I also recall no recommendation on how soon
testing should be performed, except for a recommendataion that it become
a standard part of buying a house. 

However, for the record, the EPA recommendations on how fast to act if you
test and decide that you do have a radon problem could hardly be called
"panic".  Here are the time scales:

	Under 4 piC/l		Don't worry about it
	4 to 20 piC/l		You ought to get it reduced in a year
	20 to 200 piC/l		You ought to get it reduced in 3 months
	over 200 piC/l		This is when you ought to act quickly

And even that comes with the recommendation that you ought to re-test 
later, eg several months later if you get a high reading, since a
single high reading could be a statistical fluke.  They don't mention
that a single low reading could also be a statistical fluke, but
hopefully the "threshold of concern" is low enough so that a single
low reading will usually mean that average levels are not too bad.

	Larry

    
    	At the risk of opening a can of worms, let me ask a general
    question: For the people that tested and had high levels of Radon,
    do any of you *not* have blatant floor openings like sumps or big
    cracks?
    
    							-c

In the 15-Oct-1988 Science News (p254) there is a report of a study 
conducted by Bernard Cohen at the University of Pittsburgh that finds 
evidence of an INVERSE correlation of lung cancer and radon at the 
levels found in households.

While there is a clear correlation between lung cancer and high radon 
levels in mines, the data seem to suggest that there is a LOWER 
incidence of lung cancer in houses where the radon level in the living 
areas are considered high by current standards.  The study was based on 
data from 415 counties comprising 39,000 samples.

From the article:

"...Comparisons for men and women in the 10 states for which there are 
data on 10 or more counties give similar `negative correlations in 80 
percent of the cases.  And in states where there is a positive 
correlation,' he adds, ` it is very slight and not statistically 
significant.' But this study was clearly non-random since it involved 
homes where the residents were worried enough to pay for radon 
measurements."

The article gist of the article is not that radon is good for you, but 
that this finding might enforce the previously unpopular theory that 
radiation has a "threshold" dose, below which it has no effect on 
people.  However, there is a contingent of people who think that a 
little radiation MIGHT be good for you, and they are going to be 
watching the numbers closely as more tests are done.

What this seems to mean is: (1) you should test for radon, because 
people who test for radon are the people who showed the negative 
correlation.  (2) if you test low, you should buy bottled radon from 
your neighbors.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I am doing a research paper on Radon and would appreciate anyone
    sending me clippings from newspapers, magazines, etc.  My MS is
    LKG2-2/N1 or you can send me mail on Delni::
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jennie

I am about to sell my house and the buyer did a radon test and guess what...
7.7 on the P scale.   Fortunately this is not bad and can hopefully be
solved by some simple caulking.  I would have liked to have gotten some
hard info about how to solve the problem but as notes tend to do they
drift off onto tangents.  So getting back to the reason for this note
HOW TO GET RID OF RADON (because there are people who may not buy your
home if you have it regardless of how big a scam this whole thing is!) I
can summerize what I have found with a few questions of my own:

1.  Opening up the basement in sub zero weather is not an acceptable solution.

2.  The next thing to try is caulk up the cracks, joints and around the
	pins in the cement foundation.   One pro I talked to said he
	was successful 50% of time with caulking if the levels were
	reasonable (less than 15?).  He said he brought down a level
	of 16 to below 4 with caulking.
	He uses some stuff called "Sikaflex" for about $20/tube ... ouch.
	
     question:  has anyone heard of Sikaflex and where to get it (cheaper!)?
	
	Anyway he charges about $300 for a typical caulk job.  
	Another pro recommended using Lexel which is a lot cheaper at $6/tube.
	He told me to give it a shot before a pro came in.

	So I will try and get it retested and will post the results.

3.  If caulking does not work I suppose you can try latex paint to seal up
	the pores.  I was told be one of the above proves that this stuff
	runs about $50/gallon and neither recommended it.  They did not
	say that it would not work though.

4.  If the paint does not work then try a sub basement floor system.
	Basically a pro will come in and drill a few holes in the floor
	and have a fan blow into the holes pushing the radon the other
	way.   You can only do this if there is a little breathing room
	under the concrete floor (i.e on gravel).  They will drill a
	test hole to see if this approach is feasible. 
	The pros I talked to wanted from $800-$1000 to do this.
	They claim this approach works very well.

	The fans require very little energy and cold air is not blown into
	the basement.  Not a bad choice if one, two and three do not work.

5.  If none of the above work then you are probably stuck with an air to air
	exchanger.   They dont cool down the basement as much as an open
	window but are expensive to install.  I've seen one installed by
	owner for $1200.  I've heard of pros charging up to $4000.

	Of course this approach works well but is probably the most
	expensive to operate and potential (future) buyers may not 
	like it.

6.  If none of the above works go live in a tent ... after its tested
	for radon of course!!!!


Cheers,
	Larry Cohen

    
    A consumer group recently tested some radon testing kits/lab reviews
    designed for home use. Out of a half-dozen, two were accurate, two were
    way off, and three were non-committal (?). No specific names were
    mentioned. 
    
    They have asked the EPA to start checking up on companies that do this
    testing to make sure they are accurate. Evidently the process that
    qualifies you as a testing lab is very loose. In the meantime, they
    recommended that you have professional testing done before starting any
    expensive worked based on a cheap test kit. 
    
    The story also said out that although 4.0 is the "acceptable" level
    based on EPA standards, it is way beyond normal atmospheric
    concentrations of 0.2 and already dangerous. 

    
    re: .43  point 2.  (caulking)
    
    I've seen caulking at Spag's for around $4 made by Geocel that claimed
    to be "radon caulking".  Don't ask me what qualifies a product as
    radon caulking.
    
    Phil

    re .44 - Radon tests inaccurate 
    
    In case you want to read it in print, same story, Boston Globe, 1-5-89,
    page 72. 

    re: .45
    
    Seems to me what "qualifies" a caulk as "radon caulking" is that
    it is capable of forming and air-tight seal. In short, any caulking
    should work. 
    
    					Mark
    

I suspect what makes one caulk better for radon is its ability to adhere to
concrete in moist conditions.   One pro I talked to liked Lexel better than
Geocel unfortunately I wasn't thinking quick enough to ask why (or maybe
I didnt remember ... radon must be effecting my brain :-})

Quick followup on my caulking effort.  After spending 3 evenings caulking
my basement with Lexel  I had the air in my basement retested for radon.
The level in air was reduced from 7.7 to 2.5 pico-curies/liter.  Success.

-Larry Cohen

A somewhat obvious point to add:

If your basement is not a living/work space, then reducing infiltration
from the basement into the living area is another way to go.  Plus that
cuts down on energy usage if the basement is unheated.

Note that radon levels generally decrease with height, so a level of 4.0
piC/l in the basement usually translates to lots lower levels upstairs.
Especially if you take active steps to reduce infiltration.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Cross-posted from PICA::NEW_HAMPSHIRE...

  I'm looking at purchasing a house that has had a radon problem.  The
  owners have invested a pretty large sum of money towards correcting
  the problem and I'm convinced that the problem is corrected (although
  I'll certainly write some conditions into the P&S).  I have no con-
  cerns about living in this house.

  HOWEVER - - -

  Before I *INVEST* my money in this house, I want to know that I will
  be able to re-sell it someday and recapture my investment.  I don't
  want to end up trapped, owning a house that's perceived to be a four
  bedroom Love Canal or Woburn.  So, without presenting to many more
  facts about the exact case involved, I'd like to poll the noting
  population:

    o If you were buying a house, would you not look at a house
      that previously had but has solved a Radon problem?

    o Would you make a lower offer?  By how much?

                                   Atlant

>        o If you were buying a house, would you not look at a house
>      that previously had but has solved a Radon problem?

    It depends on how bad the problem was.  How bad was it?  
    Remember that the majority of houses in New England probably have
    a radon 'problem'.
    I don't think you'd have a problem selling it.  You'd buy it.
    I'd buy it.  That makes 2.  I'm sure there's more!
    
        
    o Would you make a lower offer?  By how much?

    OF COURSE!!  Tell the owner how concerned you are about it!!  
    Offer 20% less!!

    The other radon notes seemed to indicate 50/50 split on those who feel
    radon is a health hazard to worry about and spend money to fix and the
    other half feel it it this years media "hype project" and in several
    years you will not hear anything about it. (ie. toxic shock syndrome) 
    
    Based on the random sampling in this file, I would say that you have
    reduced the number of potential buyers by half.  Really more along the
    lines of 25% because of the half which are concerned about radon, you
    have fixed the problem and therefore they will buy it. 
    
    Banks are now in the picture and it may effect financing for some
    of your potential buyers.
    
    I agree with the previous.  Play it to the hilt and show how concerned
    you are about the potential for a recurrence of higher limits of
    radon and see if the seller will lower the price.  They obviously
    believe it is a health hazard because they spent so much money to
    fix the problem.

>        Banks are now in the picture and it may effect financing for some
>    of your potential buyers.

    I don't think it will effect financing since it's been fixed.  A
    bank might require that a radon test show it's below some limit,
    and apparently it will be, since it's been fixed.  They don't care
    what the reading was a couple years ago.
    

  Last night, I heard (from our half of the co-broking team) that the
  radon abatement system was installed at the insistance of a previous
  prospective buyer, who still backed out of the deal (not necessarily
  because of the radon -- no reason was offered).

  Regarding "How bad was it?" -- That's a very valid question, to which
  I still haven't gotten a straight answer.  But I will or there *WON'T*
  be any deal, that's for sure.

                                   Atlant

    
    Personally, I think that a house that has been fixed should be no
    problem.  I doubt the owner will lower the price much, as he/she
    has already spent money to fix the problem.
    

Passive fix or active fix?  If the fix involves sealing the basement, or
even installing drains around the foundation, a subsequent buyer may
have no way of finding out that there ever *was* a radon problem.  If 
I was the buyer and did find out, I wouldn't worry about it (if the
current air tests came out ok, but I'd check that anyway).

HOWEVER, if the fix involves blowers, filters, or some other active 
technique, I doubt whether I'd buy the house.  It would be about equal
in my mind to having a sump pump -- if the house needs one, count me out,
because I don't want to have to deal with it's failing.  I did buy a house 
with a water filter, but it can fail and all that happens is that my
water doesn't taste as good -- I know, I've let the salt run out.

	Luck,
	Larry

    RE: .6, don't totally knock a sump pump. When I lived in NY, there
    were many houses that NEVER had water in their basements until one
    really rainy year. I'd rather have the pump and never need it. There
    are enough ways to tell if a basement had water problems previously,
    even if the owners do repaint the walls (i.e. check the INSIDE wall
    of the furnace enclosure for rust). I have a sump pump in my new
    house and have yet to see water in the sump.
    
    Eric

    
    RE: .6 radon removal, sump pumps, and water filters
    
    ...and I wouldn't buy a house that I knew had any of these problems.
    Not because they're bad necessarily, but because there are plenty of
    other properties available without any of them, and there is plenty of
    work to go around a house without the hassles of a recurring problem.
    Just another .02

Well, I didn't mean that I WOULDN'T buy a house with any of these problems
-- they are second order, after affordability, suitability to my needs, and
location.  But consider what happens if the system fails and we don't
notice in time.  If it's a radon system, we could get cancer.  If it's a
sump pump, stuff we have in the basement could get ruined.  If it's a water
filter, the water tastes funny.  While I want my house as low maintenance
as possible, the consiequences of the water filter breaking are less 
serious than any of the others.  With a sump pump, I'd wonder if it was
*really* going to turn on when needed, and what I'd do if it didn't.

I disagree that there are plenty of houses available without these
problems.  After ruling out the unaffordable, the unsuitable (including
all split levels) and the badly located, there was very little.  I feel
lucky to have got away with little worse than a water filter.

But the point is well taken, if there's *any* chance of flooding, I'd
rather have a sump pump than not.  The house I bought, though, is on
top of a hill, and what water I do get in the basement doesn't come
up from below.

Getting back to the point of the note, then, if there's lots of houses
on the market that are just like yours, an obvious radon problem would be 
a definate negative.  But if the fix is passive, I wouldn't worry about it.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

  By the way, in this area, I'd bet there's a strong positive correlation
  between the statements "The house has a sump pump" and "The house has
  a radon problem".  After all, isn't the open floor of the sump a won-
  derful entry point for radon?

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  As a post-script, I'll tell you all that we didn't make an offer on
  the house.  It's got an active system (subfloor suction) so radon's
  eventual effect on resale value was quite important to us, but that
  wasn't the final straw.

  The final straw was when "our" realtor delivered to us (for signa-
  ture) a P&S specifically including some language I'd already told
  her was unnacceptable for our first offer.  So we tore up the P&S,
  concluded that our excessively open conversations with this realtor
  had already set up a climate where we would be unable to get the
  fairest deal on the house, told her so, and walked away from the deal.

                                   Atlant

    I'm currently going through Merril Lynch Relocation, and they have
    discovered radon levels in my house of 9.1 using a computerized test
    from Radonics Inc.  My house is on a slab, and I'd like to find out out
    how to treat the radon problem.  I've got carpeting, and
    linoleum in the downstairs which I would have to tear up if I were to
    try to treat the slab in some way.  I talked with a company called
    Radon Control Systems which suggested at system which pumps the air
    from underneath the slab up through the roof using PVC pipe and a fan. 
    They said it would probably cost between $1100-$1500 to install their
    solution. 
    
    Any other avenues I should try?
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

    RE .51
    
    Congratulations!!! You are yet another member of the "I'm being
    scammed by the radon geeks" club!!! If it makes you feel any
    better, so am I.....and I ain't happy about it. Now, I'll not
    argue pros/cons of whether radon is bad or not. I will state that
    with it being such a new "science", there is plenty of room for
    interpretation of testing devices and/or calibration. I've heard
    that up to 50% of results are inaccurate anyway.
    
    My house blew a 6.2. For that, I have been exposed to a lot of
    sales talk about how dangerous that is.....and they always drag
    out the old "equivalent to 200 chest X-rays per year" saw. I said,
    fine if I lived in the basement. And I usually avoid sticking my
    nose into the cellar floor and breathing when I *am* downstairs.
    Further investigation reveals that my 6.2 (or your 9) are considered
    minimal by the EPA. Thats one of my gripes, no leeway in the program.
    
    In any event, you are stuck. The equity companies wont touch your
    house until you fix the "problem". Try reading the old notes here,
    I have learned much by doing so. (340,2631,3013). In TALLIS::REAL_
    ESTATE, try note 674. IN HUMAN::DIGITAL, try 756. You can try sealing
    cracks and get a retest. I smell something fishy when the remediation
    companies always start with the most expensive fix. Subslab ventilation
    would be equivelant to replacing the motor in your car if it needs
    a tune-up. Failing with a 6.2 is sorta like getting a $1500 ticket
    for going 57 mph. Your 9.1 is probably close to 62 mph. 
    
    If you are lucky, you can fix it yourself with caulk. I am already
    in my new location and am at their mercy, cause I'm here and the
    house is there. And I have literally no time to screw around, I
    need to close out that house so I can get into my new one. I'm so
    glad that radon is todays big concern.
    
    Oh, and if you think "no biggie, I'll consider this as just another
    place for some of my equity to go".....hah! Wait till you see what
    they offer you :-(  
    
    Good Luck!
    
    DAP
    

    Can anyone recommend someone in Mass. to fix a radon problem?  I just
    got an estimate from a company called Radon Control Systems to
    install a sub-slab ventilation system for $1375.  I would like to get
    another estimate before I have them go ahead with the work... 
    
    Attempting to fill in cracks, and/or paint the cement floor may be an 
    option, but would be painfull since the house is on a slab, and we
    would have to tear up and re-install the carpeting, etc.
    
    Any recommendations appreciated...
    
    --- Dave

    Please put any recommendations for radon contractors, and requests for
    same, in 2003.  Thanks.
    
    				DCL, moderator

    I also posted this in REAL_ESTATE, as there are other radon
    victims in there. The saga continues.......

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Time for an update......as you may recall, my house blew a 6.2
    in its' first test. I was not happy with that, as I don't really
    believe in the technology......but the house does have a few cracks
    in the foundation, so I was not totally surprised.
    
    Radonics recommended Radon Control Systems. My "high" rating of
    6.2 was quoted as being "very dangerous" and would require the
    sub-slab ventilation at a cost of some $1400......and they would
    send their appraisor. Well, their appraisor called with a quote....
    but from what I am told never showed up a the house (???). Funny
    thing, too...the quote was the *same* $1375 as they quoted others
    in here!! Their "appraisor" was in reality a salesperson, and I
    have been contacted twice so far with a hard-sell phone call.
    
    I read the notes here and in other files.....and according to even
    the EPA, levels like 6.2 are no biggie and should be fixable with
    sealing/caulking. Since there were cracks, I elected to hire a local
    contractor (whom I know and trust) to seal the place. He caulked
    all wall cracks/pipe openings/joints. He sealed floor cracks and
    painted the entire floor with epoxy paint....at $77 a gallon!! I
    spent around $400 including labor. (BTW, this was not his first time
    doing remediation work).
    
    Radonics came for their retest Monday morning. They said that one
    of the cellar windows was not latched tightly, so the house was
    not sealed tightly enough....despite the fact that the window was
    *closed*. He said that due to that, he had to test for 48 hours
    instead of 24...but of course, it was still a fair test. All doors
    and windows on the upper floor had to be sealed tightly in the 90
    degree heat for the entire two days......my wife and daughter 
    suffered mightily. He was adamant that the whole house had to be
    sealed, not just the floor being tested.
    
    Got the results today........my 6.2 has turned into a 7.0!!!!!!!!
    And even HomeEquity says that they didn't need to have the whole
    house sealed!!!! And that virtually everybody is going through
    retests like crazy with Radonics. Only way to get a "guarenteed"
    passing retest is to have Radon Control Systems do the sub-slab
    ventilation. I smell a rat. A big one.
    
    HomeEquity has been great. My rep went to bat for me and I am
    being offered a retest by a different vendor. I call that fair.
    In the meantime, I count the days till my closing on my new house
    and hold my breath. Radon is literally ruining my life at this
    point.....or is it simply Radonics? 
    
    DAP
    

>          <<< Note 1814.55 by MADMXX::PELTONEN "Radon Ruins Relocation-Film at 11" >>>

>   All doors and windows ... had to be sealed tightly...

      If  the  house  is  sealed  more  tightly than normal then you are
      TRAPPING radon that would normally not be kept inside.   So...  It
      seems reasonable that you got a higher reading.
      
      The  other  possibility is that radon concentration does vary over
      time.  A one time, one or two day high or low reading doesn't mean
      too much. Long term testing is the best indicator -- 4 tests, each
      1-4 weeks, repeated at ~3 month intervals to sample conditions  in
      all four seasons.
      
      ...'course it may still be a rip off...

    re-1
    IMHO anything that has the keyword RADON associated with it is a
    ripoff.
    
    -j

If anyone wants to get a radon reading cheaply, or perhaps several readings
for more data points, Zayre's (at least the Zayre's in Acton, MA) has radon
test kits for $2.00 each.

-Mike

    
    	I too know someone who has suffered thru the Radonics radon test
    for a Meryll Lynch relo. I forget what his results were but if it were
    me I would find out if I could send the replies in this note along with
    a letter to the Attorney Generals office. Because I to smell a rat.
    	Seems to me that the public is being litterally ripped off!
    
    
    					Paul
    			Whos-radon-level-was-fortunately-low

    I have just finished relocating with Merril Lynch. Although I did pass
    my radon test, 2 others in my group did not. Lots of $$$ to fix it...

We are in the process of buying a house and we just got the RADON results back.
They were 10.2 pci/l.  The owner is talking about only ventilating the crawl
space the canister was in, this is adjacent to the family room.

We have a contingency in the P&S which allows that either they fix it, deduct
from the price, or recind the deal.

How can we have him fix the problem so that we will be assured that
the problem does not also exist in the family room?

How serious is 10.2 pci/l?

Any help will be greatly appreciated...

M-

    EPA recommends taking corrective action for a reading greater
    than 4.0 pc/l.  You'll have to decide how serious 2-� times
    the recommended limit is.  The EPA number is based solely on
    what they felt was "easily achievable" at a "reasonable cost".
    I'm not real sure I would worry at a first reading.  I would
    first call in a professional firm to take readings using more
    sophisticated equipment (the canisters are good for getting a
    feeling for the level).  IF remedial action is required, you
    should be sure to demand that a final reading is taken after
    the action has been taken.
    
    Handyman Magazine had an article on radon a few months (maybe
    6?) back.  It was quite interesting and made an effort to put
    the problem in perspective.

    
      When I got my Radon test results back there was an explanation
    of Radon danger levels with it. The following rules apply:
    
    	1. If you spend 75% of you life in the area with the particular
    		level of concentration.
    	2. You live 75 years in the same place.
    
    		... then you reduce you life expectancy by 25 days for
    	each "1" of Radon; in your case ~250 days.
    
      Based on that info, you can make up your own mind how serious
    it is for you. The information I received also stated that there
    is a 2-3 times REDUCTION going from a lower floor to the next one
    up.
    
       In any case .1 is right, tha cannisters are just to get an idea
    of your Radon level. At this point you should call in a pro who
    can take more sophisticated measurements and make specific
    recommendations. 
    
    				Kenny

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

I'd like to comment on the rip-off charge.  I think it depends on what you mean,
exactly.  What's the rip-off?  The banks - for requiring adequate test results?
The treatment companies - for rip-off treatments?  Or radon itself - is it
really bad for you?

I think you could make a case for some aspects of the first two categories I
mentioned.  And, there certainly is a lot of gray area on how much radon is
bad.  But, consider those of us for whom there is no gray.  I can only speak
from personal experience.

I live in Dunbarton, NH.  Our beloved town (pop. 1,000) recently made national
news concerning high levels of radon gas found in well water.  A lot of us
got our water tested by the state Environmental Services lab (no rip-off here,
right?) and, in a fairly concentrated section of town, found very high readings.
There is no official EPA "acceptable" level for radon in water yet, but I've
heard proposed numbers of anywhere from 1,000 to 20,000 pcl (pico-curies per
liter).  Ours came back at 497,000.  We just had another test done, also by
the state, and it came back at one million and change.

A friend of mine brought his geiger counter over (minored in geology in college)
and he pointed it at our water tank (this stores and pressurizes the water we
get from our well).  He had to alter the scale to get an accurate reading, and
only concluded, "Don't sleep on your water tank."

There are two common methods for stripping radon from water:
    - activated charcoal - the same thing some people use anyway (for good
      taste, I think)
    - bubbles.
Charcoal is extremely efficient in removing radon.  This is good/bad news.
The problem is that you wind up with radioactive waste.  This is not a joke.
There are also potential problems in legal disposal of this stuff.
Bubbling it out is mechanically difficult, to the tune of $3,000+ for radon
levels as high as ours.  Some difficulties are:  how fine do the bubbles have
to be?  where/how do you vent the air that the radon has escaped into?  if you
also have iron in your water, what do you do with now-oxidized iron? (another
filter besides the water softener), you need to pressurize your water again,
etc. etc.

Some may ask, "What's so new about radon?  Why is it all-of-a-sudden a problem?
Did all our ancestors die of radon-induced lung cancer?"

As has been explained elsewhere, for the most part, the reason for the increased
concern recently is the tight-ness of our home construction in the past couple
decades - tight, as in heating-fuel-efficient tight.  Old houses = drafty houses
 = plenty of air exchanges = no bad things (stale air, radon, body odor) stuck
inside.  A tight house is a potentially hazardous house, even if there's no
radon.

(Radon-in-water, by the way, is completely harmless to drink.  It's when the
radon is released from the water into the air that the problems start.  Radon
escapes into the air slowly and completely in reservoirs in three days; it
escapes into the air very quickly and completely when heated/agitated - as in
showers, clothes washers, dish washers.  Radon attaches to dust particles which
are breathed into the lungs and are not breathed out.  The concentration and
build-up of radon in the lungs "has been found" to increase the risk of getting
cancer.  Again, the jury's still out on exactly how this is bad, how to measure
radon-only, etc.  The jury has come back, however, with a decisive "guilty" on
the combination of radon and cigarettes, and the judge has handed down a life
sentence, if you know what I mean.)

One factor in a lot of peoples' favor is mobility.  How long does the "average"
family live in one house?  5 years?  Less?  The only studies I've seen on the
potential effects of radon conclude, "if you spend 70 years of your life living
in conditions of n pcl of radon, it's equivalent to x hundred chest X-rays or
y packs of cigarettes per day".  I can conceive of people 50 years from now
scoffing "I lived in three houses with terrible radon and I'm still alive!"
Just as some people in their 80's claim to have been two-pack-a-day-ers and
x-rays show clean lungs.

I ask those of you who think it's all a media-craze/hoax/rip-off - What would
*you* do if your water (or air) was found to have this much radon in it?
What would *you* do if there was measureable radioactivity in your basement?


Pardon the sermon, folks, I just wanted to get a load off my chest, so to speak.

    I'd do exactly what I'm doing now, nothing!
    Ah fresh radon! Can I have a hit?  8^]
    
    -j

Some people don't worry about two-packs-a-day, either.

How can you find out your genetic predisposition?  No, I know, do science a
favor.  Donate your body to science now.  They're always looking for human
guinea pigs to volunteer for a worst-case scenario.  I've heard of some great
property available in old uranium mines.

Oh, never mind.  An expression about a brick wall comes to mind.

    It has nothing to do with a brick wall or your having met one it's
    just that I believe all this histeria around XXXX will cause you cancer
    or yyyy will do whatever to be a fad. Myself I'm in perfect health
    10 years after exposure to a high(toxic) amount of mercury I diden't
    die then and I doubt radon will get me now. I just refuse to live my
    life scared to death about dieing I think alot of people are trying
    to get out of life alive and it dosent happen.
    BTW-It(my body) *is* donated to medicine after I'm dead they'll cut me
    to tiny bits and mount me on a slide. What have you done?
    
    Beside's all of the above somebody has to play the devils advocate
    and keep people thinking for themselves. 
    
    
    -jerry(who thinks he will be dead from old age well before he dies from
    radon induced cancer)
    
    P.S. You can find out alot about your genetic predisposition to cancer
    by learning your familys health history.
    
    
    

re .-1:

>>    I just refuse to live my life scared to death about dieing  I think 
>>    alot of people are trying to get out of life alive and it dosent happen.

I quite agree.  But my concern about radon is more than just fear of dieing.

I try to avoid radon because I don't want to risk my life without getting
something positive in exchange for the risk.  Flying is a risk, but it 
takes me places I want to go.  Wilderness hiking is a risk, but it is fun.
Smoking can be enjoyable, so I am told.

But what fun is there in breathing radon?  What sense is there in ignoring
a risk that often can be reduced with minimal inconvenience?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Regardless of how entertaining a discussion about whether radon is or is
    not a health concern, it is better discussed in SOAPBOX than here. 
   
    Let's try and keep the discussion to identifying radon levels and how to
    change them, instead of whether it is a real concern or just another
    hoax. 

    Bruce [Moderator]    

        My brother just sold a house that had a borderline high reading.
    I'm not sure the # of pico-curies. He works for Zecco in Nothboro so
    he questioned the accuracey and ended up contacting a test lab located
    in Lexington. I don't know the name but it's the only one with a
    credible rating. He talked to someone there about the fact that the
    company that did the tesing wanted to rip up his basement floor etc.
    The guy at the lab started rattling off some figures which were over
    my brothers head. He then agreed to meet with my brother and go over
    the info. Well it turned out that my brother had been heating his home
    with a woodstove located on a first floor fireplace. The Engineer
    theorized that if the furnace (in the basement) had been cycling
    regularly the radon reading would've been within more acceptable
    limits.
        Solution 1. 2,500 bucks to dig up cellar floor and vent.
    
        Solution 2.   300 bucks for a fan with timer connected to the 
    furnace flue. It would activate for X minutes every few hours and
    cause a complete changeover in basement air. 
    
        Anyone coming in with a high reading should consider this as a more
    suitable alternative to excavation. Having the radon test done during
    the heating season would confirm it's viability as a running furnace
    would turn over cellar air every few hours on it's own.
    
          Bob
    

      DISCLAIMER  -- The following is at least 3rd hand -- probably 4th,
      5th, 6th, or whatever.  I can offer no "authoritative" source  for
      the information.  
      
      A  slight  variation  on .47.  Recently we installed a wood stove.
      Because our house is constructed very tightly we decided to supply
      an outside air supply to the stove. The man at the stove shop said
      that he had heard from a customer that supplying  an  outside  air
      source  for  a  wood  stove  can  _reduce_ radon in the home.  The
      explaination is that as the stove sucks air in and up th chimney a
      negative  air  pressure  is  created  in the house.  This negative
      pressure can in turn suck radon gas into the basement through  any
      cracks  or  other  openings  in the foundation and basement floor.
      This is most noticable in a tightly constsructed home.

Tangent to Charlie, (re: .48)

Even in light of your disclaimer, here's a comment or two.

I don't see how anything to do with a stove can *reduce* any harmful gas inside
the house.  If you've got radon, you've got it until you can exchange it with
outdoor air, where it's dispelled more-or-less harmlessly.

And, given a normal (no outside air supply) stove in a tight house, why would
the stove go all the way downstairs to pull air in through barely measureable
cracks?  I'd think there'd be more accessible cracks in the supposedly tight
house to supply the stove with O2.  If the above-ground part of the house was
really that tight, I would think you wouldn't be able to maintain a fire.

Jon

>I don't see how anything to do with a stove can *reduce* any harmful gas inside
>the house.  If you've got radon, you've got it until you can exchange it with
>outdoor air, where it's dispelled more-or-less harmlessly.

      Thats  true.   The  argument  in  -.2  (I think) was that neagtive
      pressure created by a wood stove  might  increase  the  influx  of
      radon into the basement.

>And, given a normal (no outside air supply) stove in a tight house, why would
>the stove go all the way downstairs to pull air in through barely measureable
>cracks?  I'd think there'd be more accessible cracks in the supposedly tight
>house to supply the stove with O2.  If the above-ground part of the house was
>really that tight, I would think you wouldn't be able to maintain a fire.

      While I see the logic of this argument, I don't agree fully. First
      of all its likely that the door between  the  basement  and  first
      floor  won't be closed all the time -- we don't even have one!  --
      and even if it is closed its probably not very tight, compared  to
      outside doors and windows.  The only way for the stove to such air
      into the house is by creating  negative  air  pressure.   Exterior
      doors,  windows and walls are probably a lot tighter than interior
      doors.  It follows that pressure is likely to  be  just  about  as
      negative  in  the  basement as it is on the first floor and on the
      upper floors -- regardless of where the make up  air  is  actually
      sucked in. And decreasing the air pressure in the basement is sure
      to increase the likely hood of bringing radon in.
      
      Of course there may not be significant radon in any case.
      
      ...and the previous disclaimer applies to this too.

>    likely (I've even felt a fireplace cool a house), but pulling something
>    (air, radon?) through a floor is a task of a different MAGNITUDE,
>    cracked or not.  

It doesn't take much radon gas volume-wise to produce a high reading.

Think of air leaks in a house as being like electrical resistors in parallel.
A small air gap might be like a medium-sized resistor, a large gap like a
small resistor, and a crack in a basement floor is like a high-value resistor.
In an electrical circuit, current will flow in all resistors, just not much
in a large one compared to a small one.  In a house with negative pressure
inside it (yes, it's real) most air will come in through the larger air gaps,
yet a little air (and radon) will still come in through the crack in the floor.

-Mike

One of the methods decribed in the EPA booklet on how to reduce radon states
that a positive pressure in the basement can significantly reduce radon levels.

Pictured is a well sealed basement and a fan which pumps air from upstairs into
the basement to maintain a pressure differential.

Although the booklet never states that a slightly negative pressure would
increase radon levels, it would seem logical to come to that conclusion...

Re: .49

Modern houses can be fearsome tight... in my last house, when we had the stove
going if we didn't open a window a crack the smoke going up the stove flu would
go out the top of the chimney and be sucked back down the furnace flu and thence
into our basement.  So there was a pretty good pressure differential.  I 
finally tricked up an outside air supply for the stove.

(This isn't a problem in my "new" 100+ year-old house.  We get lots of healthful
fresh air all over the house... I could make steel in the basement and not get
any backpuffing!)
						>>>==>PStJTT

        Essentially what I was attempting to say that a qualified Engineer
    said that the negative pressure in the basement is helpful in lowering
    the level of radon. The woodstove was located out of the basement
    thereby leaving the basement air in a stagnant state. Common sense
    would support two schools of thought in a basement with cracks in the
    floors or improperly sealed outside waste and water pipes could
    increase the level with a negative pressure.
       I'd really have to ask my brother for more specifics but the fan in
    the flue (in the basement of course) with a sufficient source of
    outside fresh air would work. The 300 bucks is much cheaper than say
    1-5 grand for an air to air exchanger.
    
       FWIW the Engineer said that  the European standard for what's an
    acceptable reading is 10x what's considered safe in the USA. His
    biggest complaint was Joe Public being taken advantage of.
    
        Bob

Re: Radon, blah, blah, blah...

A friend of mine just returned from Germany and commented that over 
there, people go and PAY MONEY to sit in RADON gas springs or pools 
for some sort of "therapeutic" benefits.

Hmmm... What do they know that we don't know or what do we know that 
they don't know?

Maybe we should flood our basements and charge admission :-)

Charly

    We discovered that we have a fairly high level of radon in our basement
    (20p/L) and crawlspace (42p/L).  We had an estimator from a radon
    mitation company give us an estimate on fixing it.  He also estimated
    just the cost of the materials if I choose to do it myself.  The
    "savings" is a bit over $300 if I do it myself versus them installing
    it.
    
    The remedy that they are recommending is basically sealing cracks in
    the basement, sealing the open earth in the crawlspace with a sheet of
    special plastic, and ventilating underneath the plastic with a fan to
    the outside.  Also, the perimeter drain would be ventilated (since part
    of the perimeter drain runs right down the middle of the crawl space,
    this is fairly easy to do).
    
    I'm wondering what experiences y'all have had installing similar radon
    mitigation systems and whether this is something an "average"
    do-it-your-selfer, like me, should try and tackle.  I might add that if
    the company does the installation, it's guaranteed for one year to
    bring levels below 4 p/L.  If I do it myself, no guarantee.
    
    I'm sure that radon has been discussed elsewhere in this conference,
    but a keyword search revealed nothing.
    
    -- dan

This note re-opened at the request of the author.

I saw the word "Radon" in the title, my "duplicate note" beepers went off, and 
I locked the note.  However, the author was interested in questions specifically
about installing the radon mitigation systems himself, which no other note 
directly addresses.

Have at it.

Paul

Offhand, it seems to me that the job as described would be pretty simple --
except for installing the fans.  If you subtract the fans and related
stuff from the estimate, does that change things?  Also, what if you
replace their "special plastic" with ordinary plastic?  It needs to be
heavy enough to stand up to occasionally being crawled over, but it doesn't
need to be special in any other way that I know of.  

Everything that I've read says never try expesive mitigation until cheap
mitigation has been proven ineffective.  I have not personally done any
radon mitigation work, since I've got too much air infiltration in my
fieldstone basement to have a radon problem.  Someday I'll get my basement 
sealed, and then I'll get to have my own radon problem.  :-)

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    The estimator told me that the "special plastic" is absolutely
    air-tight.  I don't know if ordinary "viscuane" (sp?) that you use for
    vapor barriers around your insulation in the walls is different.  I'm a
    bit suspicious.  Also, he said that they use a special glue that holds
    the plastic to the concrete walls.
    
    I'd be interested in any brand-names and suppliers of any of the
    materials that you would need in a typical radon mitigation system,
    espcially caulking material, pastic sheeting, and that special glue. 
    I've heard the names Sikaflex and Lexel for caulking.  I checked around
    for a duct fan, and was told by one plumbing supply outfit that they
    cost about $200.
    
    I agree with you, Larry, about trying a more minimal system first and
    see if it's effective enough.  I don't like the idea of running a
    100-watt fan 365 days a year for the rest of the house's useful life. 
    My feeling right now is to do the caulking of the basement and seal the
    open earth in the crawl-space, perhaps adding a passive vent that runs
    from underneath the plastic to the outside.  This may be sufficient --
    if active suction is needed, that can easily be added.
    
    Anyway, I am interested in other DIY radon mitigation experiences out
    there...
    
    -- dan
                                                                       

Well I just did some radon mitigation myself.  38p/l in the basement.
First I tried the caulking routine by sealing the cracks and perimeter.
This did not help at all.  I was very surprised.  I used a siliconized 
latex caulk.   This type of caulk will work very well but should not
be used in heavily traveled areas.  The pros are using polyurethane 
based caulks.  I dont know of any stores that sell the stuff.  It is
extremely durable and hard when dried.

I ended up having to install a fan (they are called inline centrifugal
fans).  Fantech is one such brand of fan.

The fans run $150 and up depending on CFM and who you get it from.

The installation was not too bad as I had the foresight of placing
some 4" pvc under the slab and vented it to the outside 
before the slab was poured for the basement.  All I had
to do was place the fan on the pipe and then extend the piping above 
the roofline.

I had some good advice from a professional from whom I bought the fan:
Al Broggi of Radon Mitigation (I think Londonderry NH).  I highly 
recommend him.  He will sell all the materials you need at reasonable
prices.

His procedures for your situation seem to be the same: Put some
plastic down and vent underneath.   I agree that you should try
the least expensive approach first (i.e. no fan) but I doubt if
you will get the count down to below 4 pc/l without the fan.

Good Luck,
	Larry Cohen

    
    I am looking into a house in Acton where the readings I got were 9.2 in
    the living area and 11.7 in the basement. The seller is willing to fix
    the problem and make it below the EPA level of 4.0. Since the seller is
    out of state he has asked me (and his broker) to get a local
    contrator.
    
    I have a few names in front of me (from the yellow pages), and I would
    appreciate if someone has any experience with any.
    
    Radon Control Services, Framingham	800-287-7776
    Radon Reduction, Inc. Lexington	617-862-8462
    Radon Testing & Control, Norwood	617-769-6419
    
    If you can recommend anyone else, please let me know.
    
    Thanks,
    /Alkesh

    
    Hummmmm, I dont remember where I was looking but I remember 
    seeing something on that just a little while ago.  I was a 
    blower system ducked into the basement.  Good air in, bad out.
    Went thur a heat exchanger and out.  Sunday paper maybe????
    I"ll try to find it again??  I might have had some numbers.....
    
    JD

    
    I just went through the same scenario. My readings in the basement 
    were about 7, upstairs about 4.2 (this was in the winter with the house
    closed up). Recommended acceptable level is 4 pico curies per liter...
    my readings (and yours) are nothing to be very concerned about. 
    
    Nonetheless, I insisted that the seller provide a control system that
    would be permanent and meet my expectations (my expectations being 
    major overkill... cuz that's my style, ha!).  
    
      Here are the most popular methods of solving the problem:
    
    	1. If the problem is minor (yours is), you COULD get away with
    	   sealing all cracks with caulk (lexcel is the recommended brand),
    	   enclosing all holes in the slab (e.g. sumps) and painting the 
    	   floors with some heavy latex paint. 
    
    		PROS: Cheap and relatively easy.
    		CONS: Doesn't always work, requires maintenance including
    		      resealing cracks if caulk shrinks, dealing with new
    		      cracks. 
    
    	   Some radon control companies will still recommend this as
    	   solution. More reputable (in my opinion) companies won't. The
    	   EPA no longer recommends this. This is a good solution if you
    	   are SELLING a home with radon and you want to skate past the 
    	   test.
    	   
        2. Air Exchange System.
    
    	   This system is a simple system that exhanges the air in the
    	   basement with exterior air to prevent radon buildup.
    	
           PROS: Simple system, low to moderate direct cost.
    
    	   CONS: Anywhere other than a warm climate, this means your 
    		 heating bills are likely to take a beating due to the
    		 constant introduction of cold air into the basement.
    
    	3. Slab Ventilation (my choice).
    
    	   This system sucks air out from under the foundation and
    	   evacuates the radon before it ever enters the house. 
    
    	   In this system, a 3" or so diameter pipe is put through the
    	   floor into the substrate. This pipe is fed to a special fan
    	   which sends the air up another pipe to where it is vented
    	   above the roof line of the house. The pipe can be run through
    	   the house (up through closets or such) and into an attic where
    	   the fan is, and then out through the roof. OR it can be done
    	   like my house where the pipe from the basement goes out through
    	   the wall to a flush mounted fan and the vent pipe goes up the 
    	   side of the house. 
    
    	   You will have to seal holes and cracks to avoid any concern
    	   about back drafting the furnace. And possible provide a direct
    	   air supply to the furnace (dryer hose from the outside).
    
    	CONS:
    
    	   Most expensive system. Installed for my house was about $1500.
    	   Actual materials cost was $500. I had the seller buy all the 
    	   materials and I installed it myself. No big deal.
    
    	   The fan is left running night and day, 365 days a year. It is
    	   VERY quiet and is roughly the equivalent of a 75 watt light 
    	   bulb.
    
    *****
    
    	I believe the company who quoted the system was called RADONICS 
    	or something like that from Andover. They came out and tested the
    	airflow under the slab by drilling 2 holes and shoving a shop vac 
    	hose down one and puffing smoke into the other hole. It took all
    	of 30 minutes. 
    
    	The manufacturer of the fan (Model GP500) was RADONAWAY, also out
    	of Andover. The fan was about $250, the rest of the cost was for
    	PVC pipe, hangers, ground fault plug, wiring etc.
    
    ****
    
    	If you have any further questions... just ask.
    
    								- Mac	

    
    Thanks, that's great info.
    
    There is a compnay called Chapin Environmental coming in today to give
    an estimate. I like to put in a system that would give me a long term
    solution rather thatn fixes every few months !! Looks like what you
    described as drilling a hole in the basement floor sounds like the best
    solution.
    
    Do you happen to have the number of RADONICS handy ?
    
    /Alkesh

    Does anyone have phone number for Lab that does Radon testing (not
    connected to fixing radon problems) ?
    	I am interested in doing a test for my current house.
    
    thanks,
    Robert

You can buy radon test kits in many stores.

			Steve

    call Niton in Bedford MA

    If anyone is still watching this topic...
    
    I did a canister type home test and got a reading of 34 p/l. I
    had previously sealed basement floor cracks and painted floor when
    I finished the basement - accept for one big crack - the sump.
    
    The first estimate I got was for $775 for a sump-fan system with
    guarantee to get it below 4 p/l. This estimate was over the phone
    and I'm waiting for other estimators to come out and inspect.
    
    This estimate seems a bit high in my miserly opinion. 
    I figure for parts:
    fan: $150
    monitor: $50
    traps: $50
    vent pipe: $20
    sump cover: $25
    re-test: $20
    			say $350 parts. 
    
    $425 for some plumbing work seems like they're playing on the
    panic-hype situation or are used to dealing as part of a real
    estate transaction (which I'm not involved in) where $775 is
    a drop in the bucket. 
    
    What should I expect to pay to have this type of system installed?
    
    Given that the first estimate was guaranteed to fix the problem sight
    unseen I think I could DIMS and correct the problem but I can't
    find a source for the parts. Where do I need to go - a plumbing
    supply house? might the local hardware Mega-store have parts? or is
    there a radon specialty shoppe at the mall?
    
    Wouldn't it be more cost effective to mine the Uranium-222 and sell
    it to say N. Korea?

    
    I installed a (potentially) identical system about a year ago
    which cost probably around $450. The estimate I was given was
    $1200.  Although I only had a reading 7 pcl, I was on the buying
    end of a house deal and I decided to go whole-hog on a fix so I 
    wouldn't have to think about it in the future.
    
    It isn't likely that you will find a proper fan at a home center,
    and your cost for the fan will be dependent on what style you choose.
    Running the vent pipe through the interior of my house and out the
    roof was not an option, so I bought a low profile flush mounted
    fan that goes on the exterior and ran the vent pipe in the crotch 
    between the chimney and the house.
    
    FAN:
    The provider (if I recall correctly) was a company name RadonAway out
    of Andover, MA. The fans generally run about $250 and up. 
    
    VENT PIPES:
    The pipes are 4" schedule 40 which is fairly cheap, but you get soaked 
    on elbows and connections.
    
    SUMP COVER:
    My sump pump is in a sunken barrel that has a bolt down steel cover
    (you can see these at any home center).
    The radon vent pipe extends (via a threaded join) into the sump barrel
    only about 3".  My sump is designed to remove water that builds up 
    UNDER the foundation during spring melt-off... it is not designed for 
    water to flow in from above the floor.
     
    Big point here: the pipes from both the sump and the radon system pass
    through the steel cover. Don't forget to install an easily removable
    joint in both pipes above the cover. I didn't, and when my sump pump 
    sucked up a small stone I had to get cut the pipes with a sawzall in
    order to move the sump cover. Now they have joints ;-}.
    
    WIRING:
    The system needs a seperate GFCI circuit... so factor in the cost of 
    the proper breaker/outlet and wiring.
    
    FLOOR:
    The floor cracks have been totally sealed (there is a recommended sealant 
    for this purpose called LEXCEL <sp?>... it's clear, sticky, smells like
    airplane glue and works great). Then the floor was sealed with two
    heavy coats of a oil based floor paint.
    
    MONITOR/TRAPS:
    I dunno what these refer to. 
    
    The system is quiet, practically invisible, and wasn't particularly 
    challenging to install. If you have any questions... feel free to ask. 
    
                                                        	- Mac
    							

    
    Re: .5 and uranium-222
    
    Note that this isotope is created when uranium-235/238 is run through
    an air shredder. More importantly, doing so VOIDS THE SHREDDER'S
    WARRANTEE!
    
    JP

re .6

Is separate GFCI required by code or current draw of fan? The sump is on a GFCI
along with some exterior receptacles so I thought I could tap off this circuit
or add a GFCI receptacle and add the fan as a load depending on location.

The monitor is suggested by EPA to provide audible or visible indication of
system condition. The one I've seen is a tube which shows the pressure difference
on sides of the fan.

The traps I think are one way valves for things like the A/C condensation line
which drains in my sump. This guy said he would also install a similar valve 
to allow any water to drain from the basement floor.

Do you have a number for RadonAway since I'm in Maryland?
Thanks.

    
    If you have a GFCI receptacle by the sump that you can use for
    the fan that'll work. That's exactly my setup.  Now that I now
    what the monitor is... I remember my original quote having one.
    I nixed it since I have a seperate hole through the sump cap that
    I can unplug to sweep water down if I wash the floor... if I pull
    the plug with the fan running I can tell by the vaccuum that the
    system is fine. (I think you can do without the "monitor")
    
    The traps sound interesting... I'll have to look into that.
    
    I'll look for some RadonAway info when I get home... I'm sure I
    have it on file.
    
    								- Mac

    >I don't like the idea of running a
    >100-watt fan 365 days a year for the rest of the house's useful life. 
    
    Just out of curiosity, is this about what the average fan uses in a
    subslab mitigation system?

    
    As I recall, my fan is the equivalent of a 60 watt bulb.
    
    								- Mac

Mac,
	Any luck finding a number for RadonAway. I tried calling
information for Andover and they had no listing for RadonAway.

    Results of off-line communications. Posted with Mac's permission.
    
From:	REFINE::MCDONALD "Thom (Mac) McDonald: DTN 297-6454  05-Aug-1994 1059"  5-AUG-1994 11:15:03.51
To:	WASHDC::PAGANO
CC:	MCDONALD
Subj:	RADON FANS...


	Ok -
	
	It turns out that I was a bit confused about my locations.
	The place in Andover is a mitigation company and that happens
	use Radonaway fans.
	
	Radonaway's number is 1-800-767-3703 

	The external low profile fan that I have is Model GP500. 

	According to the company in Andover... Radonaway doesn't sell
	direct to consumers (although my builder managed to buy one
	for me at my insistance).

	Radonaway is NOT the manufacturer... they resell DYNOVAC fans,
	so if you have a problem convincing Radonaway to sell... perhaps
	you can track down where DYNOVAC is.

		
								- Mac 

	

    
    Hi
    
    I need some advice here. I was about to purchase a house when I found
    that the radon test readings are quite high (actually 19). Now, I have 
    asked around several companies that fix such problems and they assure 
    me that they could get the radon levels down below EPA (which is 4).
    That is satisfactory for me to live in the house. What bothers me is
    how this information is going to affect the resell value after I fix
    the problem. Would a potential buyer walk away even they liked
    everything about the house and only problem is that it had radon in it
    once and proper corrective measures have been taken ? What should I do ?
    
    Regards,
    
            
    Kasturi
    
    ps := Our inspector only tested the basement and 19 reading is in the 
    basement. This is also a walkout basement and the radon accumulated
    there in only a week. 

    Do a dir/title="radon".  I'm pretty sure there is an official radon
    note.  Your question sounds familiar.  For resale, you may also want to
    ask in the real_estate notes file.
    
    Elaine
    

    	I personally know someone that didn't purchase a house and this was
    the only thing wrong with it. It all depends on the buyer and what they
    are willing to deal with based on how much they want the house.
    
    	When you go to resell it another radon test may be done. This should 
    yield the acceptable limits if the problem is fixed. If so, the buyer would 
    not even be aware of a previous problem, and it shouldn't matter so long as 
    the problem is fixed.
    
    	The bottom line though, is that it's your decision to make. If
    someone specifically asks about it then I believe you have to tell
    them. Unless the repair is something that would draw attention it is
    doubtful anyone would ask after seeing successful test results. I
    wouldn't rule out the possibility though.
    
    	Ray
    
    	

   340  TRACTR::DOWNS        27-AUG-1986    49  Radon Gas Developments ?????
  1814  TRACTR::DOWNS        21-DEC-1987    66  Getting Radon Gas Out!!
  2631  MPGS::BARWISE        13-SEP-1988    56   Radon Gas Testing
  3013  IMBACQ::SCHMIDT      13-FEB-1989    10  RADON -- Does it make for a bad investment?
  3128  SALEM::ANDREWS       28-MAR-1989    27  Radon in well water
  3795  COOKIE::SANDERSON    19-APR-1990     4  DIY installation of Radon Mitigation systems

    
       We just had a house built in August of last year in Milford NH. 
    It's a small Ranch.  Should I have it tested for Radon, or am I pretty
    safe?
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Dean

I don't see why you think you should be "safe".  Indeed, the newer houses
with more air-tight construction are those most likely to have higher
radon concentrations.

				Steve

        The town of Milford is mostly Granite and is in a high Radon area.
    If you are concerned about Radon then you should consider testing.
    
    Robin

    
     Guess I'll hit Home Depot this week to pick a test kit up.  I
    understand the kits you have to send in the results for are the best?
    
      
    Thanks,
    
    -D

    Call American Environmental Labs in Leominster, MA, 1-800-522-0094.
    
    Elaine

I've never seen one which didn't require you to send the materials to a lab.

If you get a high reading, do another one, then use one which collects over
a longer time.

					Steve

The best thing to do is contact an environmental engineering firm and ask 
to rent one of their radon measuring devices.  This is a device which you 
can place anywhere in the house for a period of time, then press a button 
and it will print a paper tape which shows the level on each day, then 
averages it for a total.  You wouldn't believe how variable radon can be 
day to day, room to room, floor to floor.  (you'd think the 2nd floor whold 
have consistantly lower levels than the first floor...not necessarily!)

A friend lent his to us for over 2 months.  Ours levels fluctuated from 0 
to 20+ on some days but averaged around 6-8 for the whole house.  Not 
enough for me to get excited about.  Mitigation would have cost us about 
$1100.

I'm looking for a radon mitigation firm to mitigate some radon (level of 10.9
pCi/L) in my basement.

I live in Groton, Mass.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks for any help.

Vicki Meagher

    I dealt with an outfit called Pelican Environmental based in
    Massachusettes.  They were in the South Shore but came up to 
    where I live, next door to Groton.
    
    -TB

    Isothermics in Groton (508-448-9559).
    
    They mitigated radon in our basement. Had to poke holes in the walls
    to get pipe up through the attic and you can't even tell where it
    was done (as opposed to botch jobs I've had other contractors do in
    years past).  And when our fan stopped two years later, he came out
    and replaced it at no charge.
    
    Janice

>>                    <<< Note 298.221 by NETCAD::FERGUSON >>>
>>                 -< Isothermics, Groton, Ma. radon contractor >-

>>    Isothermics in Groton (508-448-9559).
    
>>    They mitigated radon in our basement. Had to poke holes in the walls
>>    to get pipe up through the attic and you can't even tell where it
>>    was done (as opposed to botch jobs I've had other contractors do in
>>    years past).  And when our fan stopped two years later, he came out
>>    and replaced it at no charge.

A few months ago I asked for recommendations for radon mitigation and ended up
using this contractor (thanks for the reference, Janice).

Ray DeWitt is the owner of this firm. I was very pleased with his work and
thought he did an excellent job and would recommend him to anyone. He's
EPA-certified. 

He also has two other phone numbers: 603-880-1777 and 800-339-1450.

Vicki Meagher

I can't recall the source, so I certainly can't quote it, bit I
believe I heard recently that the radon 'threat' really isn't.

Can anyone point to the source, or substantiate that?

Thanks,
Pete

    There are differing opinions on just about everything.  Heck, Bob Dole
    says that nicotine isn't addictive.  The majority of the research 
    strongly suggests that radon is the number two cause of lung cancer 
    behind smoking.
    
    				Steve

If 99 (hypothetical number) percent of all lung cancer is caused by cigarette
smoking and randon is the second leading cause of lung cancer how much is caused
by radon?  Answer:  less than one percent.  How much less - can't say.  

Don't you find most epidemiological studies a hard pill to swallow these days? 
Remember the Swedish study that said we should all be dead due to the EMR fields
put out by our video monitors?