Conference 7.286::home_work

     The way you can get the pitch in a sidewalk is by pouring
    the concrete drier than you normally would.  Don't add so much
    water and it won't flow downhill as fast.
    
    

Yes, you can easily pour cement to get that pitch.  In fact, 3' rise in
45' is 1" in 15" (not too steep).  Readi-mix places mix the cement stiff,
then when they get to your house and "check out the pour", they add the
"right" amount of additional water.  

I poured 4 yards - 2 into vertical forms for a bulkhead door (stiff) then
the guy added water to make the mix more workable for a sidewalk.


Mark
    

    Thanks,
    
    Now I can finish digging out the base without worrying about putting
    in steps.
    
    Nick

    I'm in the midst of repairing a section of deteriorated concrete
    that my bulkhead sits on. Apparently, water has seeped in and
    frozen during the winter causing the damage. I've been breaking
    off as much loose stuff as possible in the hope that new concrete
    will adhere.
    
    My questions are:                
    
     It is necessary to break off every loose piece even though I'm
    now down to reasonably solid material?

     Would it be better to use a gravel or mortar mix? Some parts will
    be almost 2 inches thick. I've been hearing conflicting opinions
    as to which concrete mix would be best.
    
    Anyone have any tips or advice?

    Thanks....Robert   

    I would suggest using Portland Cement and sand, no gravel....
    
    Also check with your masoner supplier for a liquid that you apply
    to old cement before pouring the new cement over it. It is kind of
    milky looking and should help to adhere the old and new cement.
    
    -Mike-

Don't use mix called 'mortar.'  Mortar is considerably softer than concrete 
after it has set up.  Also, I would think that a fine aggregate (<�") would be 
fine in that situation.

Paul

    re:-2
    
    That "milky" substance....do you know what the active ingredients
    are???...when building stone walls my grandfather always use to
    have us put a good 'squirt or two' of IVORY liquid soap in the mortar
    that we were mixing.....when asking what that was for, he replied that
    it helped a make it stick...never questioned him and believe it
    or not it did make a difference from a section were we ran out of
    soap.
    
    -Jay
    

    I believe that the liquid you're referring to is latex or a latex
    derivitive. I remember my father using it to repair cement walls and 
    such.

  I am in the process of starting to build a (10 * 20) shed. I am trying to
 do everything myself if possible. This shed will be permanent and will 
 have a slab foundation. 

 When I picked up my building permit, the building inspector
told me I would probably need 5 yards of cement and would have to call 
someone for cement. 

  So hear come the questions. 1) If I just have the cement brought in,
can an average Joe handle the pouring or should someone be hired ?

     1a) If someone has to be hired, what is an average cost ?
 
  2) I have heard from several people that cement is currently costing
      approximately $50-$60 a cubic yard. Are these prices average ?

 Thanks for your help,
       Dennis

    I will be pouring 50 ft of sidewalk tomorrow morning. The concrete
    (cement is what is used to make concrete) is coming from Melone's
    in Stow, MA at $60 a yard, I'll be using 3 yards. This includes
    a half hour of pour time, any longer than that and it will cost
    $60 and hour for the additional truck/driver time. This should be
    plenty to get the forms filled and then start the finishing after
    the driver leaves.
    
    All the work is in the preparation although you will need some help
    when the pouring is going on to get the forms filled and to help
    in the screeding process (leveling). Go to the library and get a
    few DIY books that have sections on concrete work. The Reader's
    Digest DO IT YOURSELF book has good instructions about the process
    steps that you would find helpful. There is also a book by Rodale
    Press called Build it Better Yourself that has a good section on
    concrete and building construction.
    
    Nick

    $50-$60/yard sounds about right.  If you order 5 yards I doubt that
    there will be any extra charge for a "minimum" order.
    
    If you're just pouring a flat slab and don't need to worry about
    moving cement by the wheelbarrow load, you and a couple of energetic 
    friends ought to be able to handle it okay.  The driver will want 
    to dump the cement as fast as possible and get out of there, so you 
    will have to be ready to handle it without a lot of fooling around.
    If the truck can easily get to the site, so the driver can maneuver
    the chute around over the slab area, there should be no problem
    at all.  
    After it's dumped you'll have to level it off, and a couple of shovels
    and a long 2x4 to rake back and forth across the top edge of the
    form should do it.  You can try troweling the surface after it sets
    up for an hour or two if you want, but it will harden just fine
    anyway.  The surface will just be a little rough if you don't.
    Cover the surface with plastic for about a week, so the cement doesn't
    dry out too fast, and it will be a lot stronger.  Cement hardens by 
    chemical reaction, not by drying, and if it stays moist and cures
    slowly it's stronger.
    Don't forget to put in some anchor bolts for the sill plate.
    
    Steve
    
    

    I just paid $51/yard from Keating for 2500 lb concrete.
    For 2000 lb the cost was $49.
    

    The concrete that I paid $60 a yard for (re .1) was 3000 lb concrete.
    
    Just finished the sidewalk, excellent results. All the work was
    in the preparation, the finishing was very easy. Bought the edging
    and joint tools from Spags, $3 each.
    
    Now to keep the neighborhood dogs away till it cures.
    
    Nick

    Does anyone know how many cubic feet are in an 80 lb bag of premix
    concrete?  I need three cubic feet and want to know how many bags
    I'll have to lug around.
    						Thanks
    						=Ralph=

I'm pretty sure it says on the bag, or at least the people at the lumber yard 
should know.  (Well, they can probably look it up, anyway).  I think it's about
.75 cu ft.

Paul

    Well, if all you have to add is water, you can figure it out:
    
    Water weighs about 8.3 lbs/gallon, or 62.5 lbs/cu ft.  Concrete
    weighs around 140 - 160 lbs/cu ft.  Figure the weight of water
    you're supposed to add, add the weight of the bag, and divide
    by about 150 to get the number of cubic feet of concrete created.
    
    		- Bill

    As I recall, it's 2/3 to 3/4 cubic foot per bag; Sakrite (and similar)
    have the information on the bag.  I'm not sure the add-up-the-weights
    trick would work, because some of the water is going to evaporate
    as the concrete dries out.
    
    Steve
    

    I did a new walkway at my house a few years ago. The cubic content
    of the entire walk was 1/2 yard. I bought everything loose and the
    total weight was about 2000 lb. From that simple arithmatic tells
    me that a cubic yard is about two ton.
    
    The mix I used was 1 cement, 2 gravel and 3 sand of course it may
    have been 2 sand and 3 gravel but it doesn't really matter because
    if I do any more cement work I'll just go back to the supplier with
    my needs and let him tell me what to take home.
    
    boB

    Four replys in six hours, WOW!  Thanks people.
    
    	After calling four places, someone was nice enough to take a
    look at the bag.  One 80 lb bag of sacrete makes .75 cubic ft.
    Taylor rent-all will rent a two cubic foot mixer for $25/day.
    

    If you're only mixing 2 or 3 feet of concrete, I wouldn't
    bother renting a mixer.  But then, if it's only $25, maybe
    it's worth it.  Nevermind.
    

    Yeah, 3 cubic feet = 4 bags (you have found out for us) and that
    wouldn't be too bad to mix in a wheelbarrow.  One bag at a time,
    of course.  I did 6 bags a month or so ago, and that got to be a bit
    of work, but not unbearably so.  
    
    Steve

    If you want to mix it by hand (I would) and all at once, you are
    welcome to borrow what I use a trough - half of an oil tank.
    Remember the previous note that got alot of replies !
    
    
    Mark
    

For what it's worth, i had to mix alot (over 1 cubic yard) of concrete to
pour into sonatubes.  I nixed the idea of having it delivered only because
it's not realistic to try to do from a big truck (especially when you want to
take your time and all they'll do it dump it)!  I previously done this type of
thing before by renting a cement mixer, getting the sand, gravel and Portland
cement!  Someone suggested that it wasn't much more expensive to just buy a lot
of bags of sacrete and mix them myself *at my own pace*!

Ya know what?  He was right!  I mixed something like 40-50 bags on sacrete over
several days.  Unlike renting a mixer and having to work my ass off, i was able
to take my time.  I simply used a large wheel barrow and could do about 2 bags
per load and simply wheel it over to where I wanted to pour it (using a mixer
one has to then transport the mess to where you want it!).  As for the extra 
cost of the sacrete, that's compensated for by not having to rent the mixer.

For anyone who hasn't previously mixed concrete, it's NOT a big deal...

-mark

I recently poured a footing. I used sand mix cement and mixed
it one bag at a time in a 4 cu. foot wheelbarrow. I had a friend
who spread and added rocks while I mixed. We have done this several
times and can usually do about 10 bags in 1.5 hours.

Bill

    	I ended up using 12 bag of premix concrete.  I figured while
    I was expanding the foundation for the bulkhead I might as well
    mix a little more and fix the cellar floor.  
    	I did rent the small 2 cubic ft electric mixer.  It wasn't
    essential but it made the work easier.  I'd just add two bags and
    the water and let it mix for 10 minutes or so.  That way I was free
    to do work while the concrete was mixing.   The mixer cost $25 for
    the day, I feel it was worth it.

    						=Ralph=

    RE:.0
    
   
5 YARDS????? Maybe I missed something but 10 x 20 is 200 square feet
    of slab. Therefore, a slab 4" thick would be 200 sq.ft. divided
    by 3 (there are 3 4" layers to a  cubic foot), then divided again
    by 27 (cubic feet in a cubic yard), or 2.469 cubic yards of concrete.

    As I say, maybe I missed something, but don't buy it based on some
    building inspectors scientific wild*ss calculation, it sounds like
    he missed a number somewhere,(or has a brother-in-law in the concrete
    business!) Maybe he wanted you t ohave an 8" slab, you could land
    Boeing 767's on it!
    
    All other advice here for pouring/handling sounds good....Good luck
    with the project!

As we s_l_o_w_l_y move on with house planning, one idea that's crossed
our minds involves use of concrete in perimeter walls:

external sheathing, clapboards, etc.    ==========================
normal 2x4 stud wall (non-bearing)       !       !       !       !
insulation to R30+                      __________________________
concrete (some reinforcement)
gypsum board or plaster                 ==========================

Using concrete perimeter (bearing) walls has some obvious advantages:

o  Thermal mass.  On the coldest winter day, and with no heat input,
   the house temperature should drop only a few degrees.  More to the
   point, overnight stability should be excellent, and stability over
   several cloudy days reasonable given some backup heating.

   (By contrast, a normal two-storey house, even with a slab first
    floor for heat retention, has far less mass, and what's there is
    somewhat less usable.)

o  Storage location is also distribution location.  By piping heated
   air through the walls on its way down to the slab, the walls stay
   fairly uniformly heated, and all rooms get that heat directly.
   The slab likely wants to be at a slightly lower temperature anyway,
   and the lower-grade heat that makes it there is just right.

   (Otherwise, collected heat must be stored in some reservoir and then
    distributed later when needed:  more complex, lower efficiency, too
    hot a first floor if you try to use the slab for this.)

o  Radiant effects.  Normally, the external walls are cooler than the
   house temperature, even if well-insulated.  By contrast, the concrete
   wall is warmer, permitting a cooler in-house air temperature while
   maintaining comfort (much less radiant heat loss from your body).

The designs we've come up with seem to permit inside buttressing at least
every 16' or so, which should be adequate for a two-storey concrete wall
(especially with some rebar).

There are, of course, potential disadvantages as well:

o  Expense.  While it does allow some off-setting economies, it'll still
   likely be at least as expensive as a normal double wall plus heating
   mechanism.

   (If two-storey concrete is very exceptional, i.e., lots of problems
    with which normal contractors can't deal, perhaps MUCH more expensive:
    anyone know?)

o  Weight.  Need REALLY substantial footings on solid soil.

o  Planning.  Because the walls are the heat source, you don't want an
   interior stud wall.  Therefore, EVERY need for electrical/plumbing
   chases, etc., must be built-in (with provision for any future needs
   as well, e.g., perhaps a blind door or two if ever an extension is
   envisioned).  This, plus the heating pipes, also obviously adds to
   the building expense.

   (This also brings up the feasibility of placing drywall or plaster
    directly on the interior concrete surface, which is necessary for
    proper heat conduction.  Any experience here?)

o  Aesthetics.  We obviously don't want to feel we are living in a
   bunker.  However, drywall is drywall (or plaster...), and what's
   behind it is hidden (as drawn above, the exterior looks normal).
   Small pictures, etc., should be able to be hung normally on the
   drywall, I assume, though larger nailing will require drilling.

Anyway:  It's an intriguing idea that won't go away until I really
know something about its feasibility.  Any information would be
appreciated.
			- Bill

    a couple of issues you'll almost certainly run into:
    
    1) it's different.  contractors don't deal well with different (as
    we've proven a couple of times on our housebuild).  unless you plan to
    do all the work yourself, this will be a major stumbling block - and
    also adds to the expense (seems they pad the price when they get
    uncertain).  even just getting the forms and rebar set, and the
    concrete poured, will most likely take some outside contracting
    - and that's the problem area!
    
    2) standard forms are 8' so going higher than that is definitely
    non-trivial (as well as non-standard, see point 1).  I don't know
    if there is any complication about rebar or anything for the added
    height.
    
    as a comment, I started with some unusual ideas and as we refined the
    design with the help of a friend who is an civil (architectural)
    engineer and another couple who are contractors, the radical ideas
    were all discarded as impractical.  We ended up with a stick-built
    design including 8" outside walls with fiberglass insulation (an
    additional 1" foam was discarded as not cost effective) and lots
    of glass, particularly south-facing but not solely.  the south side
    has an integral sunspace open to the living room (cathedral ceiling,
    about 50% of the house volume!) and a large masonry planter for
    heat gain and winter gardening.  The heat demand was originally
    computed to be around 35,000 btu/hr which constrained our choice
    of backup heating for unattended operation - I favored oil but the
    smallest oil burner we could find was about 75,000 btu/hr so we
    are going with gas-fired hot air, a fairly conventional system except
    that it incorporates a "cold-air return" that is intended to catch
    hot air rising to the top of the cathedral ceiling/second-floor
    celestory window area and distribute it through the heating ducts.
    Our primary heat is projected to be the combination of passive solar
    gain and woodstove, we have not yet selected the stove but original
    projections were that a Vermont Castings Vigilant would be quite
    adequate.
    
    Anyway, the point of this is that I would recommend from our experience
    that it is much more practical to do a fairly conventional basic
    structure and look for innovative improvements at the detail level.
    The ideas suggested in .0 are interesting, but if adequate performance
    can be generated from more conventional construction is there really
    any incentive for radical innovation?  especially considering the
    risks that go along with untried innovations...

    a couple of other things that reviewing .0 brought to mind:
    
    the drawing seems to resemble my understanding of a Trombe (?) wall
    somewhat, especially in having a double wall with the exterior
    non-bearing stud wall.  that stud wall will be almost as expensive
    to build as a bearing stud wall, the materials savings won't be
    reall as significant as the labor component in building any stud
    wall.
    
    also, the problem with electrical and plumbing chases in the concrete
    can be minimized by planning to put them in interior (frame) walls
    as much as possible.

    
    RE:.0
    
    It does sound as if you are creating a variation of a Trombe wall.
    
    There was an interesting article that I read in a back issue of
    Popular Science, which did an analysis of Trombe wall houses across
    the country. The bottom line was that in order to be effective as
    a storage medium [solar application] you really needed to be in
    an area with sufficient solar insolation, otherwise, you have spent
    a lot of money for nothing. I remember also noting that the Northeast
    area was NOT a prime candidate for this application.
    
    Did your application include solar? Or was your intent to just soak
    up [moderate] interior radiant heat and have the concrete act as
    a giant flywheel?
    
    Charlie

Well, it's not quite a trombe wall.  A trombe wall is almost always south 
facing and has glass on the outside.  There are usually vents at the top and 
bottom so that as the sun heats the wall, the air behind it circulates into the 
room.  

As thermal mass, it really does sound like an interesting idea.  I have read 
about a house built with about a 2" coat of plaster on all interior walls as 
thermal storage, so the general idea is not new.  One thing I would say, is 
that it would probably be a total waste of money unless you planned the house 
to be heated by solar heat, with perhaps a wood stove backup.  If you have a 
conventional thermostatic heating system, thermal mass is not that much of a 
help.  If the heat can go on and off at any time, then it can maintain the 
temperature of the house with no additional thermal mass.  It is only with 
solar heat, where you can only get heat during the day, and not every day at 
that, where thermal mass is a real advantage.  In that context, the cost of 
installing the thermal mass is at least partially offset by not having to put 
in a normal heating system, by not having to build a chimney for a furnace 
flue, and by not having to pay heating bills in the future.

It is going to be an expensive proposition to build, though.  As has been 
already pointed out, getting contractors to do something so out of the ordinary 
is going to be difficult and expensive.  A 40x24 foundation with a couple of 
projections cost us about $3000 2 years ago.  To go higher you would need 
special bracing, a pumper truck to get concrete up to the upper floors, and a 
lot of thought.  I suspect that to build a two story house with windows, etc, 
would cost you at least 10 times that.  And you haven't saved anything, you 
still have to build the walls and everything else.  

Actually, it would probably be easier to build the exterior walls, one floor at 
a time, sheath the insides, set up one-sided forms against the inside of the 
walls, and THEN pour the concrete.  Hmm, in that context it doesn't sound like
such an expensive idea.

Also, I wouldn't try to put the wires in the concrete.  I'd probably either:

1) Put strapping over the concrete leaving a space to put the wires.  This will
   cut down on the conductance slightly, but only by about R1.

2) Leave a large channel at the bottom of the wall (say 3"x3") that you can run 
   the wires in, then cover with a baseboard, and have the outlets directly in 
   the baseboard.  That way you can easily get at the wires to fix or add 
   anything later.  The only place that you would have to put a channel higher
   in the wall would be for wall switches, and most wall switches could be 
   placed in interior walls.  Then I'd bag drywall altogether, and just have a 
   skim coat of plaster put directly on the concrete.  What do you want drywall
   for?  All it is there for is to provide a flat surface, and you already have
   that.  This has the added advantage of cutting down slightly on the cost, 
   which will offset the cost of the wall a little.

You've got me intrigued now too.  Let us know if you ever decide to do anything 
with this idea.

Paul

    Yeah, the perimeter wall in question was the E - N - W portion of
    the house wall:  the S-facing part is the collecting portion (our
    lot is close to ideal for this - it even has a clearing just where
    we need it).
    
    On the ground floor, the S-facing windows can heat the slab directly;
    on both floors, they can heat the fireplace structure directly.
    The roof is where the perimeter-wall-heating (or whatever else)
    collectors would go (S-facing 67 degree slope, with extension to
    the N at a 3 or 4 in 12 slope).
    
    Trombe walls in this climate make sense only if they're quite well
    insulated (likely with sliding panels - roll-up shade-types would
    be marginal) during non-collecting hours.
    
    No, the whole idea of the concrete perimeter revolves around its
    distributed heating and storage capability given the intermittency
    and latency of solar heat input.  The roof collectors can potentially
    generate more total heat than needed (after the S-facing windows
    are taken into account), but it needs to be stored and distributed
    effectively to be able to take advantage of it.  The more times
    it's moved from place to place, the lower the efficiency becomes
    and the more "active" components are required.
    							- Bill
    

    Whoops - chases and coatings.
    
    The only reason I mentioned drywall was because I have absolutely
    no experience with plastering, and hence didn't know if it was
    feasible to apply plaster directly to smooth out and civilize a
    concrete wall.  If it is, great.
    
    I'd be pretty cautious about a full horizontal chase at the base
    of a high wall - seems like it would significantly decrease its
    strength.  What I had in mind was embedding conduit and boxes
    directly, so that at least the boxes would provide adequate access
    for fishing additional wire through later if required.  Another
    possibility would be to arrange to run everything vertically,
    coming out between the 1st floor ceiling and 2nd floor floor to
    a non-embedded horizontal run (a bit messy to put through the
    joists, though).
    				- Bill
    

    ANY ONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH REPAIRING CRACKED CEMENT FLOORS ?
    WHAT IS THE BEST MATERIAL TO USE FOR THE REPAIR?
    WHERE CAN I FIND SOME INFORMATION AND LITERATURE?
    THANKS
    
    

    I would use hydraulic cement.  You mix it with water and apply
    it with a trowel.  It will blend in color with the cement and is
    very waterproof.
    

    Repairing a cracked cement floor can be an exercise in futility, 
    because it's going to ALWAYS be cracked no matter what you do.
    But you can do a pretty good job of disguising the crack, and
    if it's a large crack you can probably fill it in pretty well so
    it's not so noticable.  To do a good job you need to undercut the
    sides of the crack with a cold chisel so you get a crack looking
    like this:
    
    _____________________    ________________________
    			/    \
    		       /      \
    		       :      :
    			;     ;
    
    Hydraulic cement would do a very good job I'd guess; mix it up
    according to instructions and use a trowel to fill the crack and
    smooth off the top.  Hydraulic cement expands slightly as it hardens
    and if you undercut the crack as shown the patch should stay in 
    place very well.  
    You will discover, if you start whacking away with a hammer and
    cold chisel, that undercutting a crack in concrete is a heck of
    a lot of work.  However, unless you at least get the sides of the
    crack more or less straight the patch will almost certainly come
    out afer a while, and it's better to slightly undercut the sides.
    Use safety glasses when you're chiseling.    

    <Concrete below Freezing>
    I have an enthusiastic inlaw who is an architect and builder.  He
    has offered to build me a garage this winter.  He is from Texas,
    where they don't have things like frozen ground, ice, etc.  Does
    anyone know the details about excavating and pouring concrete in
    below-freezing weather?  I have seen it done -- I know they heat
    the concrete -- but I don't know if this is considered practical
    or  appropriate for a homeowner (DEC did this for the RFI testing
    facility in Boxborough which was converted from a drive-in movie
    theater).

    The cement apron between the asphalt of my driveway and the
    garage floor cement has been cracked since day zero.  I patched
    it once, but the patch only lasted one winter.  Is there anything
    that can be done about this?  It seems to get slightly worse every
    year, so I hate to let it go.  I've seen lots and lots of houses
    with this very same problem. 

    I had  a basement floor poured 8 days ago.  (just in time before the
    ground froze).  You can't pour a slab over frozen ground because
    it will crack as soon as the ground thaws.  Concrete doesn't dry
    very quickly in this weather either.  I ordered 2% calcium in it
    and it was hard enough to walk on in 24 hours.  Keating Concrete
    charged me $2.75/yard extra for heated concrete.
    As for excavation, I don't think it will be a problem.  This time
    of year, at least around my house, the ground is only frozen about
    6 inches down.  Of course, in 1 more week it may be another 6
    inches.
    

    RE: .3
    
    The reason that the apron crackes is frost.  Since there is probably
    no footer under it, frost get under the apron and heaves it in the
    spring.  Making matters worse the frost get real deep because driving
    your car over it drives the frost deeper.  So there really is no
    way to keep it from cracking without spending needless amount of
    money.
    
    
    						KO

I have repaired SUPERSLAB concrete floors before and I used a product that
was part concrete part fiberglass. I think it's make by SAKRETE. Never had
a problem with it after installation in a high traffic area...


						Robert

    I would say risky at best for dyi at this time of year.
    I agree with -1 about the frozen ground and cracking.
    Also adding calcium to the mix reduces the time you have to work
    with it and forces you to work faster.
    If the concrete freezes all bets are off and you start over.

I've heard that masons who work during the winter put a bit of clorox, or some
type of acid in the mix.  This supposedly reacts with the water to generate some
heat to keep the mortar from freezing.

Jim. 

For my 2� I would never pour concrete in the winter if I could possibly
avoid it.  The people who built our house did and now I'm stuck with
concrete that didn't cure properly and has a tendency to generate dust.
Looks like I'm gonna have to live with that one forever!

I know lots of people have successfully poured concrete in cold weather, but
just realize that if you want to ultimately use the room there's little room
for error.

-mark

    
     I would like to replace some iron railings which were at one time
    some years ago bolted down to the concrete steps.  Aparrently,
    over the years the heads of the bolts rusted and broke off, resulting
    in the railing becoming loose, and the bolts becoming lodged and
    rusted inside of the metal sleeve they were originally screwed into,
    which is encased in concrete.  The railing was eventually removed
    and put down cellar.
    
    My problem:  How can you get those old rusty bolts, and the sleeves
    if necessary out of the concrete?  There is no way I can think of
    to get a grab onto the bolts, as they broke off far enough down
    to prevent that.  Do I need to drill them out?
    
    Any suggestions??
    
    Steve
    

    try grinding them down flush with the steps with an abrasive wheel
    or super course (36) sanding disk, then center punch the stud and
    drill it into the step an inch or two then fill with patching
    cement.  I'd stop after grinding flush, myself.
    
    Bill G.
    

    whoops!
    
    i forgot to say that i'd like to re-install the old railing after
    re-painting it.  Are you saying I should do what you said, but then
    drill different holes for re-installation?
    
    steve
    

    Try to remove the bolts with "EASY-OUTS". These are reverse threaded
    tapered taps that can be screwed into a small pilot hole drilled
    into the remainder of the bolt. You then unscrew the boltfrom the
    hole.
    
    "EASY-OUTS" are readily available at hardware type stores and Spag's.
    A set of 4 different sized ones goes for a couple of bucks. Please
    note though that these things usually only work under ideal
    conditions such as: 
    
    1. The ability to drill a good pilot hole (near the center and big
        enough for an "EASY-OUT").
  
    2. The bolt is not rusted or too firmly stuck in the hole.
    
    Charly
        
    

    I seriously doubt if an easy-out will touch the rusty bolts, but
    it might be worth a try.  ("Easy-out" goes along with "Army
    intelligence" and "government assistance" as examples of wildly
    inappropriate names....)
    I'd agree with the idea of grinding down flat, then centerpunch
    and drill.  If you have an idea of what size bolts they were (1/4",
    3/8", or whatever, you can drill that exact size and get out most
    if not all of the bolt.  The sleeve may then come out with a bit
    of belaboring with a punch to bend it into the hole you just drilled.
    Drilling the exact center of the bolt may be tricky with a hand-held
    drill, but do the best you can.  You might try drilling with a drill
    just smaller than the hole the the concrete, and try to drill out
    the whole business, sleeve and all.   You will probably go through
    a couple of drills in the process, but that's the way I'd attack
    it.

    
    Thanks for your suggestions, I'll try these drilling procedures
    over the weekend.
    
    The only other thing i can think of that might help is pouring 
    a generous amount of Liquid Wrench into the hole, to maybe loosen
    up some of the rust.
    
    Another thing:  The above is for my back steps.  The front steps
    have a similar problem, but the old railings have vanished (weren't
    down cellar when I bought the property).  
    
    Where is the best place to buy iron railings?  Can they be custom
    built to fit fit my front steps?  or do they only come in standard
    sizes, gradients, etc.?
    
    

    where are you located?  what style?
    

    Reside in Gardner, Mass.
                      
    The iron railings I'm looking for are
    Not easy to decsribe, but have a horizontal bannister
    about 1.5" wide with vertical "spokes" every
    6-8", and curly sections of iron between spokes for support and
    elagance, i guess.  I believe the thing is held together by welds.
                                         
    And they weigh a ton.                                               
    
    If you know of a different or better type or railing, I'd be interested.
      
    
    Thanks
                         
    Steve
    

    Depending on the type of sleeve used in anchoring the bolts you
    may be able to remove them. I ran into a simular problem with the
    railing on my front porch. While trying to center punch the first
    bolt I drove it into the hole further and then was able to lift
    it out with a magnet and use a new bolt. Seems that some types are
    designed in a way that when there is no tension on the bolt the
    sleeve is loose. Hope you have that type it would be easy to remove
    them.
    -j
    

Interesting idea...  I've occasionally thought of something like that...

Does anyone know about how much a concrete wall costs per square foot, or
something?  How much is a normal stud wall per square foot?

Since you have to have the stud wall on for the outside walls for insulation,
would the thermal mass of the concrete walls work as well, if they were used for
interior walls?

Are there any other ways to support a wall face through insulation from a
loadbearing wall besides a stud wall? 

Jim.

    An update (actually, I forgot I'd posted this...):
    
    Our proposed house site slopes up to the North - about 5' over the
    28'+/- N/S dimension.  We're contemplating a first floor about 2'
    below ground level at the back (N), and 3' above at the front (S).
    
    With S-facing first floor windows that start about 2' above floor
    level, this leaves 5' of non-window collection below them - 3' of
    which is actually below floor level.
    
    Incorporating water collectors (inside the insulated foundation
    envelope, hence protected from freezing) in this section, piping
    the water up to the ceiling, back to the N side, down through the
    concrete first floor walls, and back to the front through the floor
    seems an ideal way to distribute the collected heat to the walls
    and floor (which have a LARGE heat storage capacity, especially
    the floor).  In fact, naturally convection ought to take care of
    the distribution, as the heat is mostly collected below the levels
    it's distributed to.
    
    Insulating panels inside the glazing that rise into position from
    behind the below-ground portion of the foundation should minimize
    night-time losses (the frost-line depth just happens to be about
    right to get them out-of-the-way in the daytime).
    
    Rough estimates suggest that this 5' high S-facing set of collectors
    (completely invisible from inside) should take care of at least
    a third of the total heating requirements.  S-facing windows to
    the first floor ceiling (another 6') could take care of most of
    the remainder, but I'm still concerned about overheating (even
    with the slab floor in front of them).  Convection up the large
    stairwell should help moderate this and aid in SOME second-floor
    heating; attic directly-heated water storage heating the second-
    floor ceilings will also help up there (and of course there will
    be SOME S-facing second-floor windows, but - again - if there's
    not that much thermal mass up there we'll have to limit them to
    avoid large temperature swings).
    
    A wood stove is planned below first floor level in the (interior)
    stairwell that goes down to ground level:  it will be water-jacketed
    into the S-facing collectors, hence can be used to heat water (which
    it then distributed as before) when the sun is inadequate.  Still
    planning a first-floor fireplace as well - also water-jacketed,
    but less effective than the stove as it will be higher with respect
    to the storage (though it will provide radiant heat too, of course,
    so may be better at an IMMEDIATE boost).
    
    Second-floor fireplace and concrete walls may go by the boards as
    impractical, but we're still concerned about getting more thermal
    mass up there to enhance stability (unless we find the ceiling
    mass is sufficient).
    
    Still soliciting advice,		- Bill
    

    Oh, yeah:  The original mention of an exterior (insulating) stud
    wall outside the concrete referred to the second floor (if the
    concrete extended up there).  On the first floor, we'd prefer
    something like stucco over the exterior insulation board:  termites
    are known in the area, and this seems a good way of keeping all
    exterior wood at least 5' or so off the ground (yes I know they're
    not SUPPOSED to like PT wood, but I'd still feel better...).
    
    I've heard of this plaster-over-insulation-board approach somewhere:
    does anyone know more about it?  (E.g., how thick for stability,
    what kind of mesh, how frequent the need for support through the
    insulation, ...).
    				- Bill
    

    And, since most of the excavation/concrete work is the one part
    of building I wouldn't begin to consider doing myself:
    
    Does anyone have any recommendations on foundation subcontractors
    in the Southern N.H. area West of Nashua?  I don't believe what
    we're planning entails anything really out of the ordinary:
    perimeter footings below frost line, walls up to the slab (which
    is below grade at the back but above at the front), and 8' perimeter
    walls (with embedded heat circulation piping) above the slab.
    
    Thanks,		- Bill
    

>    I've heard of this plaster-over-insulation-board approach somewhere:
>    does anyone know more about it?  (E.g., how thick for stability,
>    what kind of mesh, how frequent the need for support through the
>    insulation, ...).
    

	I did this type of construction on the upper floor of my "CordWood"
	house.  I glued/screwed the insulation board (blue styrofoam) to
	the sheathing.  Next a layer of chicken wire (I used a million 
	sheet rock screws with flat washers to hold this up).  Next was
	a base coat of CONPROCO surface bonding cement then a final coat
	of CONPROCO Flex coat...the decorative stuff.  This was not really
	all that cheap but it was a lot cheaper than having a professional
	job done.

	You could probably get more information at your local concrete
	products store.

	-gary

    	"Stick-Frame" is cheaper than concrete.
    		
    		Per linear foot:
    			Concrete, 1/3 yard 	$18.-
    			Labor, form work	  8.-
    			Footers			  5.-
    					Total	 31.-/linear foot

    			Studs & plates		 $5.-
    			Sheathing & siding	  6.-
    			Drywall & finish	  2.-
    			Insulation		  2.-
    					Total	 15.-/linear foot
    

    	That's why you see houseswith walk-out basements that have
    the gable ends walls half wood half concrete.  Building a wall out
    of concrete is pretty expensive!
    
    	I belive the "R" value of concrete is nearly zip: 0.1 or something.
    That means 10" of concrete will insulate about as well as a measly
    1" thick piece of wood.
    
    	If you're looking for a foundation contractor, there's a reliable
    fella in Londonderry, NH.  William Post.
                                                                         
    							Don Arey

    There is this magazine whose name I can't remember which deals with
    various construction techniques.  (I think it's something like
    Practical Homebuilder or something.  It recently changed its name
    from Solar something or another.  I try to find out its name on
    my way home tonight.)  
    
    The recently had an article about a new product called cellcrete (? I'm
    really good with names, aren't I?)  Basically, cellcreate is a cement
    panel which isn't too think.  It is used as follows:
    
                                    Outside
                               |-|-||
                               |-| ||
                               |-| || Cellcrete panels attached to the
                               |-|-|| steel studs:
                               |-| ||
    
                                ^        
                                |
                                +--Steel stud
                                              
    The inside wall is identical to the outside wall if you want thermal
    mass on the inside, otherwise it is a standard dry wall wall.  The
    stud area is filled with loose insulation of some sort.  The article
    had good things to say about it though I wonder about the thermal
    bridge between the outside wall and the inside wall.  Steel is not
    a bad conductor of heat.
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    I think that Bill's suggested structure in .0 has some obvious
    problems.  As the past couple of replies indicate, the cost to build
    will be quite high - even if the interior concrete has little
    reinforcement needed for pure thermal mass, it won't be really cheap,
    and there is still need to build a stud wall enclosing it.
    
    The last entry suggests a possibility, have a standard stud wall
    with the interior being the "cellcrete" for thermal mass - although
    I must confess it's not clear to me how the "cellcrete" is any
    different from Wonderboard (which seems to be simply drywall
    constructed from mortar between fiberglass rather than gypsum between
    paper).  And cost to build will probably be worse than stick-built
    even if not as bad as poured walls.
    
    My own question, getting back to Bill's design, is what problem
    is this trying to solve?  I don't believe that such radical designs
    are really required for thermally efficient structures, based on
    my experience with our new house (boasting follows).
    
    We have been in residence since the weekend before Thanksgiving, and
    have found that solar gain during the day is adequate to bring the
    house to above 80 degrees on a good sunny day with no additional heat
    (my wife really suffered the one time I unthinkingly stoked the
    woodstove before sunrise on a clear day, it reached 95 in the early
    afternoon!).  Based on design calculations by my engineer we insisted
    on a backup heating plant about half the size recommended by the
    contractor, we have a gas-fired forced hot air furnace rated at 45k
    btus.  It is adequate, but does have to work pretty hard in the absence
    of any movable window insulation.  We selected the Hearthstone II
    woodstove as being in that same range of heat capacity, it heats the
    living space very well with a relatively low wood consumption (despite
    poorly seasoned stock this first year).  We expect to use approximately
    two cords of wood this year, to heat approximately 1750 ft**2 located
    in Troy NH (the Monadnock region). Given movable insulation on all
    windows I anticipate problems with the stove overheating the house,
    unless I also start heating the basement (the stove is on the first
    floor, but the cold air return for the FHA system is in the cathedral
    ceiling and could be used to blow hot air to the basement with a very
    simple modification).  The heat is very even and comfortable in
    all parts of the house.
    
    I had originally started out with a much more radical design, but
    my design engineer and the contractors kept pulling me back to a
    more conventional package - now I'm glad they did!  I doubt I could've
    done any better with a more innovative package, but I would've
    increased the chance of problems.  I'll see how it performs when
    I get all the details polished off, but so far I'm convinced that
    there is no need to go to the sort of extremes suggested in .0 for
    a very comfortable and efficient home.

	re .0:

	Have you given any consideration to a "cordwood" wall for maybe
	part of your house.  I built the first floor of my saltbox type
	house using the cordwood method.  These walls really have a good
	thermal mass.  The temperature in the house stays very even and
	it is quite comfortable even when the temperature is in the 60s
	inside.  Using just a hearthstone II (with the new gas backup
	option) I heat the whole place...around 1600 square ft.  

	The only problem is when you let all that mass cool down, it takes
	a little while to get it warm again.  I don't really have optimum
	solar exposure like -.1 seems to have, but the mass of the house
	seems to retain the heat quite well.

	-gary

	A cordwood wall is made by stacking/mortaring in place short
	pieces of logs.  The one I built is 16" thick.  The logs are
	laid in place the opposite way that a log cabin would be 
	built.  Lets see if I can diagram it here:

			------------------------
			|        log	       |
			|		       |
			------------------------
			mortar|insulation|mortar
			------------------------
	inside		|        log	       |         outside
	the 		|		       |	 the 
	house		------------------------	 house
			mortar|insulation|mortar
			------------------------
			|        log	       |
			|		       |
			------------------------
			mortar|insulation|mortar


	This pattern would continue as the wall stacks up.  The mortar I
	used was a mix of portland/lime/sand/sawdust.  The sawdust is
	to keep the difference between the wood and concrete from being
	to stark.

	These type of buildings have been built for hundreds of years in
	parts of New Brusnwick, Canada where there are still many standing.
	A builder/writer in the Plattsburg, New York area re-popularized
	it most recently.  His name is Robert Roy.  He has written several
	books touching on the subject.  This technique has also been featured
	in Mother Earth News as well as other alternative building/living
	magazines.  Mr. Roy also has been giving workshops each summer.
	I attended a couple the summer before I built my place.  

	I've been in my place now for 2 years and find it to be a quite 
	comfortable place.  The place is very solid.  The comment has been
	made that I'm the only person they know who's house could take a 
	direct hit from a nuclear missile.  Since it is so massive it holds
	the heat quite well even though I have lots of huge uncovered windows.
	
	I could provide more info if anyone is interested.

	-gary

    Would you send me info via mail, I am very interested in what you
    have done. It sounds like a great place.
    
    Dave
    

    re .17
    
    	There are some of these buildings around eastern Ontario as
    well - mostly barn foundations.  I've heard it called 'stackwall'
    construction.
    
    	Could post the name and publisher of some Mr. Roy's books on
    this subject?  Do they cover things like percentage mix of lime,
    sawdust, etc. - do you dry the logs before you build? - do the logs
    'check' and allow air leakage? - Is this type of construction in
    building codes?
    
    	Thanks in advance,
    	_Neil

re .18:

	Okay, but read the following and if you have other questions...

re .19:    

>    	There are some of these buildings around eastern Ontario as
>    well - mostly barn foundations.  I've heard it called 'stackwall'
>    construction.

	....samething ...also called log end and a few other things.
    
>    	Could post the name and publisher of some Mr. Roy's books on
>    this subject?  
    
	The best one is:
	
	CORDWOOD MASONRY HOUSES: A Practical Guide for the Owner-Buider
	By Robert L. Roy	Softcover price $7.95
	I'll have to look up the Publisher tonight.

	You could write to Rob for info on his books and workshops:

	Rob Roy
	Earthwood
	RR1, Box 105
	West Chazy NY 12992

	The first book he wrote on the subject is now out of print and he
	claims that many thing in it that he said were not really the "way
	it had to be"  such as "the wood has to be cedar".  (Actually mine
	is made of hemlock.

	Another one of intest is the follow up to the second called 

	EARTHWOOD 

	Also there are 

	UNDERGROUND HOUSES....(a little on cordwood masonry here and some 
			       good stuff on underground house construction)

	MONEY-SAVING STRATEGIES FOR THE OWNER-BUILDER (This one helped me
			       a lot in getting my act together prior to
			       building)

	If you write to him and ask he will probably send you the flier/order
	blank.
	
	There are also a few other books by other authors.  Jack Henstridge(sp?)
	and some organization in canada that I can't remember have written
	on the subject.
				

>    Do they cover things like percentage mix of lime, sawdust, etc.

	yes..., but the last book (EARTHWOOD)gave an updated mix which is 
	the one I used.  

>     - do you dry the logs before you build? 

	Definately a good idea...mine were 4 years dried, not because they
	really had to but because it took me that long to get the show going.
	You want to minimize any checking that may occur.

>     - do the logs 'check' and allow air leakage? 

	Even when they are real dry you will get a little checking.  I found
	that you were better off with split logs than with whole round ones.
	I ended up using a combination.  A friend/co-worker built one the 
	same year as I did and used all round ones.  He seems to have more
	of a checking problem than I do.  All you have to do is fill in the 
	holes with caulking.  Some of my walls I ended up putting in an interior
	studded wall (like in the kitchen and bathroom) just for the effect.
	The possibilities are endless.  

	It's actually quite and easy thing to do.  The log ends are light,
	much lighter than whole logs like in a log cabin.  My wife who has
	no construction skills did a major part of the work.  All you do is
	mix the mortar, stack the logs, put in a layer of mortar/insulation,
	and stack more logs.  Myself, my wife and brother did the whole thing
	by ourselves.

>     - Is this type of construction in building codes?

	Building codes?  What building codes?  I'm in Vermont!  Seriously,
	you should check, but I've heard of them being built in places where
	they had to meet code.  Rob may discuss this in CORDWOOD MASONRY.


	-gary

	feel free to ask further question....

Please, if you have more information, put it in here, do not send it by mail!
(As someone suggested)

What kind of insulation do you use?  I assume the thicker the wall, the
better...  Was the wood treated in any way, pressure treated???

I tend to suspect that MA building codes would not allow you to build a house
out of this...  Does anyone know?

Jim.

	Rob Roy's books (Cordwood Masonry, etc.) are published by
	Sterling Press.  One good place to find them is in Mother
	Earth's Bookshelf.  You can get an order blank in the magazine
	or write to them at:

	Mother's Bookshelf
	105 Stoney Mountain Road
	Hendersonville, N.C. 28791

	Or call toll free (boy do I sound like a commercial?):

	800/438-0238 

	Cordwood Masonry Houses is order number: 64126   $7.95
	Earthwood is order number 	       : 83082   $7.95


re: -.1

    > What kind of insulation do you use?  

	I used plain old sawdust mixed with a little agricultural lime to 
	keep it from rotting.  You could also use thin strips of fiberglass.

    > I assume the thicker the wall, the better...  

	The thicker the wood the higher the R value would be as well as the
	greater the thermal mass.  I built mine 16" thick, but I've seem them
	anywhere 8" to 24" thick.  My co-worker's place has 12" thick walls
	and it seems to be very cozy.  He also used sawdust for insulation.
	He also has a very nice greenhouse/livingroom facing south.

    > Was the wood treated in any way, pressure treated???

	No treatment necessary.  As long as the wood is not on the ground
	or exposed to excessive moisture you needn't worry about it.  I suppose
	you could cuprinol the ends on the outside if you really wanted, or
	poly any left exposed on the inside of the house.  My aforementioned
	co-worker's wife sanded and polyed the ends of some of their's.

    > I tend to suspect that MA building codes would not allow you to build 
      a house out of this...  Does anyone know?

	As long as you can meet the local codes as far as electrical, etc.
	why not?  When I was taking the workshop with Rob Roy, there was a
	gent there from MA that was looking into doing a development somewhere
	in MA.  Don't really remember where.  My wife may remember.  I'll
	have to see if I can jog her memory.


	

    re -21: Building code in Ma.
    
    I think it would be allowed as mentioned in a previous note. Gardner
    Cycle, a few years ago constructed an addition to the from of their
    building using the cordwood masonry style of construction.
    
    If you are interested in looking, Gardner Cycle is located on Rt2A,
    in South Gardner, between the Westminster line and S.G.
    
    dana
    

I've got water in the basement. No great surprise considering the fact 
that we've experienced heavy wet periods. To complicate matters, the 
water's coming in where the hairbag previous owner converted from septic 
to city sewer and 'cut' across the basement floor with a 10lb sledge! 
The seep leaks are all along the sloppily finished concrete filling.

I need to fix that and will want to use a rented concrete saw to 
straighten up the opening. Anybody ever use one? I've gotta cut about 80 
linear feet of concrete at whatever depth a basement floor is poured to.

Any hints, gotchas, or otherwise?

Chris

    I haven't had experience with a concrete saw but have used one of
    those electric hammers with the drill bits and chisels to cut through
    a basement floor.  They work pretty good and don't take to long
    providing your floor isn't more than a few inches thick, otherwise
    it'll take you a while.
    
    Just repatching the floor with more concrete isn't guarnateed to
    solve your problem.  If it's only seeping in a couple of places,
    you might want to try hydraulic cement as it expands to fill the
    cracks.
    
    -willie
    

re: .-1 and repatching...

I realize that, however, the floor's so bad that just using hydraulic 
cement isn't the answer either. Water's been seeping between rather 
large cracks and by redoing it carefully and adding a sump, I believe 
that I'll have a dry basement from here on out...

Since posting the note, I called a contractor and discovered that they 
will charge about $2.00 per linear foot with a $250 minumum charge. I 
can rent a gasoline powered saw, cart and purchase blades (about 2 will 
suffice) for about $70/day. The rental person said that I'd be surely 
finished by the end of the day and maybe after 1/2 day...

    One thing I ran into when using an electric hammer on my cellar floor
    is that when previous owners dig holes to fix pipes, they don't
    always put dirt back into the hole before cementing.  With the hammer
    it was pretty tough, with a saw I doubt if it could have been done.
     the cement was 14in. deep.
    
    Chris D.

    I too have a basement ?repaired? by hairbags.
    
    I have had luck with masonry 7-1/4" circular saw blades and my
    Black and Decker circular saw.  Score the concrete about 1/2" deep
    along the length of your cut.  If you are cutting a channel, score
    both edges.  Then, use a light sledge hamer to break the concrete
    in the middle of your channel.  You should get clean breaks at the
    score line.  Clean up any ragged edges with a hardened-blade masonry
    chisel.
    
    One note of caution -- these saws generate TREMENDOUS amounts of
    dust.  Wear your goggles and have somebody follow you with a vacuum
    hose to minimize dust infiltration into the house.
    
    Randy
    

    The most important thing to remember is to keep the blade and cut
    WET. If the water stops you will burn the blade to the point that
    it will need to be replaced $200+ is a bit steep to just throw away.
    The water also helps the cut go faster.
    
    -j
    

    	Anyone out there know how to remove mildew stains from a cement
    foundation???
    

    Try 50% bleach, 50% water solution with a bristle brush.
    
    Or TSP solution (tri-sodium phosphate).
    

    After using the chemicals mentioned previously, you can use a stiff
    wire brush. This removes a very small amount of the surface cement
    and gives a nice fresh look to the foundation.
    
    Charly

    I filled my Ortho hose attachment with chlorine and sprayed!  Worked
    great.  You may not even need to brush, depending on the severity
    of the mildew.
    
    Chris

    	Thanx guys n gals, the bleach/water worked great however, I did wear
    out a brush and my right arm!!!
                          

    Has anyone used self-leveling cement to cover over recurring cracks
    in a large area?  I have a 12 ft. x 24 ft. breezeway between my
    house and garage.  Originally there was just a 3 ft. x 5 ft. cement
    slab attached to the house.  When we added the garage the builder
    suggested that I cover it over with cement and make a full breeze-
    way.  He  didn't break up the step as it was part of the house 
    foundation.  Every winter large cracks develop around the outline
    of this step in the cement breezeway.  Also, it is about 3/4 of
    an inch higher due to the movement of the ground in winter.  I've
    used silicone caulking to seal the cracks but am dissatisfied with
    the appearance.  A cement contractor I telephoned suggested pouring
    self-leveling cement over the entire breezeway.  Would this solve
    the appearance problem or would cracks develop next winter?  Is
    there another solution besides ripping up all the cement and doing
    the job properly?
    Any suggestions will be greatfully appreciated.

    What, exactly IS self-levelng cement?  How thick does one have to pour
    it? What about surface prep?  Wherd do you get it?  What form does it
    come in?  How much is it?
    
    -joet 

    
    	Self leveling?  Now all I need to find is self mixing and self
    pouring cement.	:^)

    
    	Self-leveling cement is generally used to level out an area
    that has hollows, dips, etc., usually on concrete floors, to prepare
    it for a proper floor covering.  It is mixed to a very watery con-
    sistency, but dries extremely hard, often times harder than the
    original cement on which it is poured.  It is generally used in
    very thin applications just to level the area out.  Because of its
    watery consistency, it tends to seek its on level, hence the term
    'self-leveling'.
    	It works very well for its intended use, however I don't believe
    it will solve the problems described in the base note.  It will
    hide the cracks initially, but will most likely develope them later.
    

    Does anyone know the rules of mixing cement? I have seen
    the 1 cement, 2-gravel, 3-sand mentioned... It this
    the ONLY way? Any hints on mix vs. strength, ease of pouring, etc?
    
    I have to do this this weekend and want to know the best way.
    
    Mark
    

    Another question for you calculating types.  How can I convert lbs
    of gravel to cubic feet?  I've got to buy lots of gravel and I thought
    I have some dumped into my truck.   I've figured out how many cubic
    feet I need, but I need to convert it to lbs.
    
    					Gawd I hate working with cement
    
    					=Ralph=

    Sterling/Lancaster Lumber has this U-Cart cement deal. They mix up a
    yard of cement and then load it into a trailer that they have. You hook
    the trailer to your trailer hitch and haul it to your house. The
    trailer has a door on the back to let the cement out and a small
    hydraulic hand pump to tilt the cart. 
    
    Very usefull for small walks, footings, sonna tubes and other small
    projects where the cement truck's 5 yard minimum (I think) is too much. 

    Current prices are about $65/Yard plus deposit on the trailer.

    Charly

    I am told that 1 cubic yard converts to 1.5 tons.
    
    3/8" size gravel that is.
    
    Mark
    

The Wiley Engineer's Desk Reference lists gravel as 90 to 147 pounds per 
cubic foot, so a cubic yard would run 2,430 to 3,969 pounds.  I assume 
the range has to do with size of the gravel and maybe composition of the 
stone it's from.  The people you're buying it from should be able to 
give you some idea where it falls in the range.

					>>>==>PStJTT

Having bought some gravel a few weeks ago and loaded it (by shovel)
into my truck I can tell you exactly what I got and how much it weighed.

I filled in a sqaure hole 45" x 34" x 19" deep with the gravel I loaded.
Weight of this gravel was 1020 lbs.  This gives .62 cubic yards weighing
1020 lbs.  The gravel was 1/2" to 1" nominal size.

Hope this helps,

-peter

    re: .12 and 1-2-3
    
    I may be mistaken, but isn't the 1-2-3 mix in increasing order of
    particle size, like 1-cement 2-sand 3-gravel?  I think I recall using
    this as a mnemonic, but as usual, I forgot it.  Anyone remember? 
    
    -joet

    So... where do all you people go to buy gravel by the truck load
    (or by the shovelful)?

    I have a 30 year old Cape, with 30 year old front steps and 1 month
    old paint job.  The house looks great with the new paint, but the
    old steps stick out like a sore thumb.  The steps are stone steps
    with a concrete "cap" on each landing (4 steps including top 
    landing).  
    
    What I would like to do (I think) is build forms around the entire
    unit, and pour 2-3 inches of concrete around the whole thing, sides,
    top, steps, everything.  I know the best thing to do is to tear
    the steps down, and replace them with the new pre-cast units.  I
    would do this, but we plan on being in the house only 1 more year,
    and don't want to spend the $600-$800 to do this.  I'm really just
    trying to make them look better for resale purposes.
    
    Is this advisable, pouring a concrete "shell" over the existing
    stone/concrete steps?  The steps are solid now, there is no loose
    stones or crumbling concrete.  The steps are crooked from 30 years
    of settling, but other than that, the problems are just cosmetic.
    
    I'd appreciate any information at all.  I've never worked with
    concrete, so any info such as: cost guesses, will this scheme work,
    don't do it, have someone else do it... would be great.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Scott

I have given up on my concrete/brick front steps.  The way it is made 
practically guarantees some dripping into the basement, it's too small,
and the bricks are constantly falling out and needing to be reset.  When I 
tap on the porch, it sounds hollow.

My question:  Is this a job for a concrete saw (a 'la 145, 604, 1001 et.al),
a small jackhammer (a 'la 711) or a sledgehammer?  If I do pound it out,
am I in danger of damaging the foundation?

Clay

    
    I have a similar concern/project. A concrete slab (approx. 6'x6')
    used for a step is causing water damage to my house. I've thought
    of using a large sledge but don't want to get started and find
    out I can't do it. 
                                          
    I don't have a tractor to pull it out. (ford escort?)
    
    Are there rental tools available for this purpose?
    
    Help us out. Thanks.  - Joel

    I recommend a jackhammer. Call Warren or Taylor rental and tell
    them what your specific project is and they will recommend the one
    you need. There are several sizes in electric jackhammers that will
    do most jobs. You only need the extra large with the compressor
    if it's a major job like solid concrete steps with metal rods in
    it.
    
    If the steps are attached to your foundation you will need to be
    extra carefull and even then you might have to patch it.

    I remember my mother having our steps done similar to the way you
    are asking about, only our steps were brick. I remember some of
    the concrete between the bricks being loose but the steps were sound.
    We had only put about a half inch of concrete over the top and within
    a year the concrete started to chip off. I would suggest a good
    2 - 3 inch layer and since the steps are sound, I wouldn't imagine
    you would have a problem. Since you are plannning on moving out
    within a year, I would say this technique would easily and
    inexpensively suit our purpose. 
    
    Eventually we replaced the steps with a "formed" concrete step and
    placed the bricks from the original steps on the sides to give it
    the appearance of brick steps with concrete layers on the landing
    and steps.

As pointed out, the main problem with adding new layers of concrete
is adhesion to the old surface. There are several things you can do to
help:

(1) Clean it thoroughly - a solution of TSP and bleach is recommended.

(2) Etch it with a wash of muriatic acid.

(3) Immediately before pouring the new slab, give the old surface
    a wash with a very thin mix of portland cement and a binder
    such as C-21.

My mason swears by C-21, and uses it for stucco, patches, etc. For
example, his recipe for stucco is 3:1 sand + portland cement, mixed
with a 50-50 dilution of C-21 and water. Three years ago he put in
an exposed aggregate concrete deck for us; there were some minor
mishaps in the washout step and a few spots got washed too deep.
He patched these with something similar to his stucco mix (probably
a bit heavier on the portland cement). The patches are very thin -
basically worked into the existing aggregate and feathered to nothing.
There has been *no* chipping or flaking.

He tells me C-21 is available from a place called "Handy-Man" in
Marlboro center; I haven't actually tried to get it myself.

There are other patching products similar to C-21 (the name Levelastic
comes to mind). In general they are pre-packaged mixes similar to the
above. I've used some, and they appear to have good adhesion. Check
with your local masonry supplier...

If it *sounds* hollow, the construction can't be too substantial,
and a jack hammer would be overkill. Get youself a 1" star drill,
pick a likely spot, and try to drive it in with a sledge. If I'm
guessing correctly, you ought to hit air or dirt just a few inches down.
If the above experiment indicates the steps are hollow, you ought to
be able to greak up the whole thing with a sledge is short order.

>    So... where do all you people go to buy gravel by the truck load
>    (or by the shovelful)?

Look in the yellow pages under 'crushed stone' or 'gravel'.

Could someone tell me what is the difference between Portland Cement Type I
and Portland Cement Type II??  Is it just the color??

Brad.

    re .19:
    
    You can usually find a sand and/or gravel dealer fairly near you
    who will let you pick up your own.  The one I found in Lowell charges
    for a minimum 1 ton amount.  For medium gravel (1/2 inch stone)
    the cost was 7 dollars/ton if I loaded it myself, 20 if they loaded
    it for me.

    Since most of the loaders they had around could have fit two of
    my little pickup in their maw (and I'm a cheapskate anyway), I loaded
    myself.  Only takes 10-15 minutes of not too dedicated shovelling
    to put 3/4 ton of gravel in your truck.  (They let me back right
    up to one of the gravel mountains, so I could climb up and toss
    the stuff right into the truck bed.)  Wallowed out of there VERY
    carefully (thats why you want one close by) with plenty of gravel 
    for backfilling my landscape walls.    

    /Dave

>>>Could someone tell me what is the difference between Portland Cement Type I
>>>and Portland Cement Type II??  Is it just the color??


 For what it's worth, Grossmans told me that color is the only difference.  I 
was inquiring about the stuff because I have noticed that anchoring cement and 
hydraulic cement both have portland cement listed as the ingredient.  They 
didn't convince me that there really was a difference...can't remember if they 
tried tho.  The BIG difference is the price!  A bag of portland cement is 
cheap compared to anchoring or hydraulic cement.  Anyone know if there really 
is a difference between these three?


-Jim

    Hydraulic cement expands when it hardens; regular cement (if anything)
    shrinks a little bit, I believe.

    I asked this in 1098.* but since there are two other simultaneous
    discussions going on there, I'd thought I'd start yet another note,
    but focused on my particular problem.
    
    I want to attach a piece of wood (2 X 8) to my concrete foundation
    to serve as a ledger board for a deck I am building. The Time-Life
    book that I have tells me to use a hammer-drill to drill 4" deep
    holes into the foundation, put in some expanders, and then run bolts
    through the wood into the expanders in the foundation.
    
    I understand that this is the tried and true method of
    fastening-wood-to-your-foundation-wall technique. Not owning a
    hammer-drill and wishing to make this event as unpainful as possible
    (given that many projects I've undertaken take seem to provide a
    more than adequate amount of grief), I'm interested in hearing from
    others you have either attempted this method or can recommend a
    different method.
    
    Someone, I think mentioned using a regular drill with a special
    bit in one note. Someone else mentioned using some "special"
    new-kind-of bolts that didn't require drilling 4" deep.
    
    So, I'm interested in:
    
    	- Methods
    	- Things to watch out for, ways to make it go easier
    	- Specific recommendations as to what sort of bolts or
    		what size bolts, etc.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    
    
    PS. The deck is a 14 X 14 made out of 2 X 8s that rest on a doubled
    2 X 10 beam 10'10" out from the house, which in turn is sitting
    on three 10", 4' deep concrete piers.
    

    I just got the latest edition of Fine Homebuilding (Aug/Sept) and
    they have an article in there on masonry fasteners.  I've only had
    time to flip through it.  But it had closeup pictures of what all
    these things look like which really helps when you try to find them
    in the store.  If you can't find the magazine ($3.95) I'll send
    you a copy of the article.
    
    Phil

    
    
    	One method is to get a mansory bit for your drill.  Drill
    	a hole and then put lead screw anchors in the hole.  Then
    	lag bolt your board into the screw anchor.   The lead anchors
    	that I have used are pretty secure.  In your case I'd use
    	something fairly large.
    
    	There are tools that actually shoot nail like fastners into
    	concrete.  The tool shots .22 cal. nail shells.  Quite
    	an expensive tool, I don't know if you can rent one.
    
    	Tony/

    RE: .2
    
    I think the lag bolts are the way to go.  I don't think you'd want
    to hold up a deck with those nails though!

    Check out Star (brand name) "Tamp-ins".  I've used them a couple
    of times and they work well; the 3/4" diameter size requires a
    hole about 1" deep and is threaded to accept a 3/8-16 bolt.  You
    would probably want one about every 2' along the wall.  

    The "ramset" which uses .22 blanks(sorta) to set nails are not that
    expensive at all i bought one last weekend for $17 +3.00 for nails
    and charges. Not bad at all for a tool that saves about 3-4 hours
    leaning into a drill.
    If you decide to go with anchors I would like to second the tamp-ins
    made by star and add that they are far above lead shields in strength.
    
    -j
    

I concur that the 22 cal nail guns are not expensive - I got one from
Sears a while back (made by Remington). Saved me literally days of work
putting sleepers down on a concrete floor and other stuff.

However...  I would not use one to hang a ledger board for a deck. The
"nails" penetrate about an inch into the masonry, and kind of crumble it
in the process, and that's not good enough for something that people will
be standing on. You need some serious fasteners - lag bolts and shields
or any one of the other gadgets mentioned in the Fine Homebuilding article.

    
    	I'd opt for the Ramset. I have used them for assorted jobs
    	and can second the earlier replies about saving lots of time
    	and effort as well as your drill.
    
    	They can be set to penetrate  different depths depending on the
    	charge that you use. There have been cases where they have gone
    	completely thru the concrete.
    
    	I'd go for the Ramset version (commercial grade) I believe
    	you can rent them from Taylor Rental or some similar service.
    	They're not dangerous either if you pay attention to what 
    	you're doing. You'll be surprised at the strength of the 
    	anchor. The concrete or mortar composition will have a 
    	determining factor, however
    
    				___GM___

    There are two "flavors" of ramset/stud-gun. The low speed variety
    made by Remington sells for between $18 - $30 at many stores. You
    load it with a nail at the end of the barrel and a charge (one of
    four strengths) in the breech. It is fired by placing the barrel
    on the work piece and striking the back end with a heavy hammer
    blow.  The charge drives a hardened steel rod forward which acts
    as a hammer to drive the nail.  If the concrete is old (well cured)
    and/or has a lot of quartz aggregate in it, you may not be able
    to drive a 2-1/2" nail in far enough to hold.  As mentioned earlier,
    the cement may tend to crumble due to the impact.  I personally
    wouldn't use this method if the nails have to support a heavy load
    of people.  It's too easy for the vibration to begin to dislodge
    the nails.
    
    There is a high speed version of the ramset available, usually used
    by contractors.  In this one there is no internal steel hammer/rod.
    You load a charge in the breech and load a fastener (nail, nail
    with 1/4"-20 threaded head like a hanger bolt, etc.) through the
    muzzle.  You then shove the fastener back towards the charge with
    a calibrated metal rod.  Thus the nail acts like a bullet.  The
    further back you place it, the longer time it accelerates and the
    deeper it penetrates.  This one also differs in that it is fired
    like a gun, with a trigger, and there is a safety shield around
    the muzzle to contain the debris of impact.  They cost somewhere
    around $125.  If you use a gun, I would definitly use the high speed
    version, and stay away from the edges of the concrete lest it crumble.
    
    Dave
                                                      

    Several replies to this note mention the ramset.  Would it be 
    feasible to use this tool to fasten finish boards, or does it 
    really mess up the wood?  I'm planning to enclose and finish a
    porch with stucco walls.  It sounds like this tool might save
    me a LOT of work.

    Do you mean to use the gun to fasten wood-to-wood or what. It can
    be used for wood to wood if you use the correct charge. However,
    I don't see it as a time saver. What time you save in hammering
    16d nails you waste in loading and reloading the gun. Besides, it
    costs about $10-$14 per 100 for the 2-1/2" nails and another $7-$8
    per 100 for the cartridges. It only costs about $.69 for a pound
    of nails.
    
    To use it for finish work wouldn't pay. The nail heads are about
    the size of an 8d or 16d nail and you can't precisely regulate the
    depth of penetration unless you shoot through a special solid disk
    which acts as a washer. Besides, you will also end up with powder
    burns, and a circular depression in the wood caused by the impact
    of the gun barrel after you hit it with the hammer.
    
    Dave

    Re: .9, .10:
    Ditto on .10.  If you want a fast way to put nails in boards, look
    at some of the compressed air nailers.

To put up a finish wall over masonry, use the Ramset to put up strapping
on 16" centers, then nail your wallboard or paneling to the straps.
Picking the shot strength is a bit dicey. If the nails go in too far
they split the strap.

    FWIW - many concrete basement walls are severly out of plumb, bowed,
    or otherwise malformed.  Be prepared to shim/add horizontal straps,
    etc.   This can be time-consuming work.

    Also, I've noted (no pun intended) elsewhere in this conference
    that renting a stud gun in MA requires some kind of firearms permit.

    Andy's comment in .14 is the best way - use the stud gun.  Cost
    is ~$20 from Taylor's in Westboro.  You can get the nails and charges
    there, but they are cheaper at Somerville or Spags.  Use 1 1/2"
    nails with 1" strapping, and usually #2 (brown) charges.  The advantage
    of getting the charges at Taylor's is that they will take back what
    you do not use, so if it turns out #1 is what you wanted (lighter
    load) you haven't bought a box you didn;t need.  The box is only
    a couple of bucks, though.  Usually if the charge is too high the
    problem is not that the wood splits, but rather that the nail goes
    straight through the wood into the wall.
    
    In Mass you need an FID card (Firearms ID), which you get from the
    local police.  They just ask for basic ID info, then run a check
    to be sure you haven't a record (or whatever; I really don't know
    what they look for), and issue you the card.  In Shrewsbury it takes
    about a week, but they give you a termporary card when you apply
    (you figure out the sense in that!) that can be used to rent the
    stud gun right away.  Shrewsbury tends to run checks on lots of
    applications (like a hawker's license) where other towns (such as
    Northboro) just issue whatever it is you are applying for right
    then and there, so this will vary from town to town.
    
    BE SURE TO USE GOGGLES.  There is a note about 2 months ago on where
    to order the best goggles around, for only $7 ea, and they are far
    superior to any you find in the stores.
    
    You don't live near Shrewsbury, do you by any chance?
    
    -reed
    

    One of the reasons for the permit requirement is the one about the
    guy who was hanging a picture on a sheetrock wall who chose to use
    the stud gun.  The nail grazed a young lady's head sipping a cup
    of coffee in the restaurant next door.
    
    We all suffer due to yoyos like this.

Hmmm... The permit must apply to the high velocity guns. I bought a
low velocity gun with a sample batch of nails and loads from Sears for
$30 (on sale a while back), and there was not a word about permits.
And Sears is usually pretty fussy about legalities. [I remember being
asked for a firearms permit once when I tried to buy BB's in a
department store, but that's another story.] Since then no one has
ever asked about a permit when I've bought nails or loads.

I gotta admit the trigger operated guns are probably more convenient
than mine. You have to hold it with one hand, compress it, and then
smack it squarely and rather hard to get it to fire. At least there's
a guard so you don't get your hand by accident.

Reed, I don't know if your recommendations on load strength are based
on experience or what you read on the boxes. With my gun, at least, the
loads appear to be rather overrated. I use green loads (#3) for concrete
block and yellow (#4) for concrete, each of which is one notch up from
the published recommendations. Once in a while I hit a soft spot and
the nail goes in too far. This tends to split 1 x 3.

I still don't think you should use these as fasters for a ledger board
for a deck.

    Yes the permits are strictly for the gun type.
    
    It is because it can be played with like you do a gun that makes
    these rambo types forget about what's on the other side of the wall.
    You wouldn't catch these guys doing it with the type of tool in
    .-1.

    re:  .-1:   That's not my experience.   I tried to rent the Hilti
    model you load and strike with a hammer.   Needed the permit.  Maybe
    that was an over-interpretation by the clerk at Taylors, but he
    demanded it before he would let me have it.   I used a drill, lead
    anchors, and lag bolts instead.   Next thing you know you'll need
    a permit to sneeze in this state (oops, commonwealth.)
    
    P.S.   I live in (and the Taylor's is in) Gardner.

    According to the Northboro police who issued me my FID card, you
    need the card for the purchase of the ammo, not the gun. However,
    I have been to a number of stores for ammo and nails and each of
    them had a different policy. Some required the FID for ANY purchase,
    some only for the ammo and some not at all. I think Sommerville
    Lumber recently started check for FID cards on the ammo. The police
    had a record of me having a card, although I lost my copy of it.
    They couldn't re-issue me a card unless I went through the complete
    application procedure over again. Took about a week, and NO temporary
    card either.  I think one should shoot for about 1" penetration
    into the cement. In my case, using 2 by 4's and 2-1/2" nails, that
    took the #4 (yellow) charge (using the low velocity, hammer type
    of gun).  If you're afraid of penetrating too deeply, use the depth
    control disks sold for the purpose. However, that means that the
    nail head will stick up above the surface of the wood.
    
    Dave

back to the original question...

I admit I've only worked on a couple of decks, but they were never fastened
to the foundation, but rather had a ledger board simply nailed to the sill
plates.  If you use a 2X10 or even a 2X12, there's plenty of room for nails and
you can still have a full step down to the deck.  Is there anything wrong with
this method?

-mark

    re: < Note 1452.21 by 4408::SEGER >

    Mark,
    	You ask why I just couldn't nail the ledger board to the sill
    plates. Well, being a novice at this stuff I wasn't sure if they
    would provide enough support. I'm trying to do the following:
    
      house ->|<- deck
    
    ----+----+|
    /   |    ||
     hse|2X8 ||
    jst | hdr||<-sheathing
    \   |    ||
    /   |    ||
    \   |    ||
    /   |    ||
    ----+----++----+-------------    -
     2X6sill ||    |            /    |
    ---------+| 2X8|  deck/porch\    3"
     2X6sill ||    |   joists   /    |
    ---------+|ldgr|            \    -
             ||    |            /    |
             ||    |            \    4" 1/4
    foundatin||    |            /    |
             |+----+------------     -
             |
                          
    I had assumed that nailing the 2X8 ledger into JUST the 2 2X6 sill
    plates would not provide enough support for the deck/screened in
    porch, and that I would also have to attach the 4 1/4" 'overhang'
    portion of the ledger into the foundation. I'd also have to cut
    away the house plywood sheathing from the sill plates in order to
    but the ledger right up to them.  Are my assumptions wrong? 
    
    Paul
    
    
    

I did exactly what you discribed...  Only thing is will a 2X8 hang down enough
to give you a full step onto the deck?

-mark

    < Note 1452.23 by BOEHM::SEGER >


>I did exactly what you discribed...  Only thing is will a 2X8 hang down enough
>to give you a full step onto the deck?

 
    Well I figured that the step height will be the (house 2X8 joist
    height + subfloor thickness) - (height of deck decking). So, I figured
    (7 1/4" + 5/8") - 5/4" = 6 5/8" which I figured wasn't a full step
    but close enough.
    
    Mark, are you saying that you just put nails through the 3" of the
    2X8 deck ledger that overlapped the doubled 2X6 house sill plates
    without attaching the deck ledger to the concrete? That would obviously
    be much easier than drilling into the concrete but I wasn't sure
    that it would be strong enough to hold the deck and porch in place.
    What do you think and why?
    
    Paul
    

That's exactly what I did.  In fact, I went out and bought a bunch of lag screws
to put in as well but got lazy and left them off.  As I said earlier, most decks
are built this way (though most houses aren't built that well so that doesn't
necessarily make it right).

I had built an entire addition secured to the house this way!  I remember that
I did make sure that the main weight on the ledger was the floor and the roof
was held up by posts secured to the house and resting on the foundation, though.

If I were to do it again, I think I'd do it the same way.  As discussed in other
notes, the shear strength of nails are incredibly strong.  The only real issue
then becomes what are the odds of the wood itselfl ripping apart.  I suspect
it's slim.

However, don't necessarily take my word for it since I'm no expert (come to
think of it, most people in this conferece aren't either although there are
some people who had past lives in the construction industry).

If you're real concerned, an option might be to get some professional estimates
and ask them how they intend to secure it to the house.

Anybody else have any opinions?

-mark

    re: .20
    
    Sorry for the late reply.  I haven't had much time lately to keep
    up with HOME_WORK.  There is a difference between type I and II.
    Type I is general purpose.  Type II has a lower hydration heat,
    which means it does not get hot shortly after being poured.  This
    is commonly used in massive structures like bridge abutments.
    
    
    Mark
    

    I am putting down a threshold in the doorway to the side room.
    The floor is poured concrete.  I am hesitant to use concrete nails
    because I do not want to split the wood or the concrete since I
    will be nailing close to the edge.  
    
    Does anyone have suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

>                            -< fastening wood to concrete >-

>    Does anyone have suggestions?

    Liquid Nails (TM).

...or drill the threshold to accomodate the nails and prevent 
splittling.

    Why not set anchors (plastic or lead) in the concrete and screw
    the thing down?

This was discussed extensively in a previos on fastening studs to a cellar 
floor.  

-mark

    Thanks for your replies.
    
    re .3;  Good idea.  I will try the fasteners.
  
    
    Steve

    Is there any problem with supporting aluminum lamp posts
    in concrete? The installation instructions tell me to do it,
    yet a salesman at a local hardware store told me to use the steel
    posts instead of the aluminum in concrete because the aluminum
    posts will rot out faster (in the concrete). Can someone clear
    this up for me? Thanks.

	Not sure if AL rots quicker then steel.  In either case you should
	wrap the post in tar paper to keep the post away from the moist high
	pH concrete.

	Brian

    Yes, I'm pretty sure the aluminum will corrode in the concrete.
    However, it will probably take so long to be a problem that it
    basically won't matter.  That's just a guess though.
    You might paint the post with a couple coats of Rustoleum enamel
    before you embed it, and that should cut down on the rate of
    corrosion considerably.

    
    Hi,
    
    I'm about to start pouring the footings and tubes for a new deck. I have
    a mixer and 16-90lb bags of pre-mixed concrete.  I have never mixed and
    poured concrete before.  Would someone like to give me some 'step-by-
    step' instructions, and advice?  Thanks,
    
    						.dave. 

    
    	One piece of advice would be to add the water a little at a
    time until you get the right consistency.  Slightly wet mud is
    what I usually mix it to.  Too much water and it gets soupy and
    is hard to work with.

    	I went that route about two years ago, a rented mixer and lots
    of bags.  I've since found a place that will sell me the stuff premixed
    cheaper than I can buy the bags.  Anyway, DO NOT LET THE MIXER GET
    DRIED OUT.  After you pour the stuff out of the mixer, stick a hose
    right in.  If the concrete dries, you'll have one hell of a time
    cleaning the mixer.  I second what .1 says, mix 1 maybe 2 bags at
    a time and add the water slowly.  If the mix gets too soupy you
    can always add a little more premix to firm it up.  Make sure you
    have a hoe, and a shovel (preferably flat bottomed) to mix and move
    the stuff around.
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    

read the directions regarding amount of water and measure it accurately.  
usually they are pretty good about getting it right and as a novice you're 
sure to be uncertain about the proper consistency.  you can add cement or 
water in small amounts after that (very small amounts on the water).  for 
strength a little wet is better than a little dry.  also read about the
volume.  a bag is probably something like .8 or 1 cubic foot.  then you can
figure about how much to mix up at once.  the capacity of the mixer might
conveniently be about one tube's worth.  you can mix partial bags quite
accurately by weighing some portion and then using the right amount of
water.  most assuredly you will become an expert on pouring and mixing
right about the time you finish the job. 

feel free to add agregate (rocks) to save cement and add strength.  sizes 
up to 1/4 of the diameter or thickness is ok.  but i wouldn't fill the tube 
with big rocks and then pour in the cement.  gravel mix is just this except 
they saved on cement instead of you.

craig

    
    	I would like to get rid of a poured cement walkway that
    	runs accross the middle of my front lawn. Easy right...
    	so I thought as I began swinging my 14lb sledge... no way,
    	I was lucky after about a dozen swings to break a small
    	corner off. Analysis: the guy who poured it was not fooling
    	around. the cement is about 6" thick. I'm thinking of renting
    	a jack hammer to break it up, does anyone else have any
    	suggestions or ideas?
    
    /Kevin

    It  might also have some steel, or mesh of some type in it to add
    strength so it won't crack. Best get that jack hammer and cut it
    in pieces.
    

    Do it quick and maybe you can dump it in that swimming pool that's
    being filled in.  :-)

    Try forcing a spud bar(large steel bar flattened on one end) under
    the concrete and prying up then while it is lifted up hit it with
    the sledge. If it dosent break using this method save samples for
    analysis as it is truly a superior mix. BTW-you dont have to lift
    the concrete very far �" or so should do the trick.
    I used this method to break up a slab under a clothes line 6'x30'x4"
    in less than an 2 hours too bad loading it on the truck wasent so
    easy 8^)
    
    good luck,-j

    Short of renting a jackhammer, I think .3 has the right idea.  
    Concrete is very strong in compression, but very weak in tension.
    Therefore, beating on it while it's well supported isn't going to 
    do much, but if you can get it in a situation where you're forcing
    it to try to bend it should break much more easily.

    I'd consider painting it green.
    

    re .0, .2
    
    I believe what you're looking for is called "sand mix", as opposed
    to "concrete mix". I had occasion to use both materials recently.
    Concrete mix has gravel in it, and is better suited to building
    steps, etc. Sand mix has no gravel, and is better suited for repairing
    sidewalks (not too deep), etc. Sand mix is definitely different
    from mortar mix. 
    
    I bought the mixes because they were easier for me (just add water),
    as opposed to mixing sand and Portland cement together and then
    adding water.
    
    Mike D

    
    	There's another one that's even finer than sand mix, and it's
    made specifically for the type of job described herein.  The name
    escapes me right now, but it should be available where ever sand
    and concrete mix are sold.

    No matter what "concrete patch" or "mortar and topping" I use to
    repair concrete, the repair materil always comes out gray.  But
    the concrete's color is much lighter.  Does the gray fade over time?
    If not, what am I doing wrong?

    The color depends on the brand of concrete; some brands are just lighter
    than others.  Around here, the bagged ready-mix stuff seems to be
    darker (in general) than commercial truck-mixed, but in other parts
    of the country the reverse might be true.

    You can buy light vs dark mortar mix. To make them lighter you can
    add more lime. But be careful on adding to much since it softens
    the mix. Repointing is often done with a high lime content just
    to make it more pliable or 'plastic'. By making it more pliable
    it can expand and contract more easily between bricks without 
    cracking.

    
    	I've looked at all related topics that I could find, to no
    	avail.  I'm planning on finishing the partially the partially
    	below ground basement in my new house this winter. I have to
    	seal the concrete before I put down the subflooring and I'm
    	looking for recommendations for a sealer.
    
    	1. What should I look for? (I saw on brand that required 30
    	   days to cure!)
    
    	2. Can I seal the floor at this time of year (the basement
    	   hovers around 60-65 degrees)?
    
    	3. Does this stuff have a tendency to produce noxious fumes
    	   or can I seal the floor with little ventilation without
    	   it driving us out of the house?
    
    	
    							* MAC *

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Paul [Moderator]

This note reopened by request of the author.  There are other basement sealing 
notes, but they seem to have diverged into discussion Bentonite or some such 
thing.

So what do you all use for a basement concrete sealer?  I just use Thompson's 
Water Seal.

Paul

    
    	Just to clarify a little bit...
    
    	I don't have foundation cracks to fill and I don't have water
    	in the basement... just the usual mildewy dampness that can
    	be inherent in basements. I will be laying subflooring and 
    	carpetting as well as putting up sheetrock. The first step,
    	as I understand it, is to coat the concrete with some type of
    	sealer or preservative/curative to get rid of the dampness.
    
    	             					* MAC *

    
    I am going to do that 'as soon as I can afford it' and as 'soon
    as I get the kitchen done'.
    
    Eventually I want a floor and sheetrocked, insulated, panelled walls.
    
    The first step is to clean, seal the concrete.  I'm just going to
    use Thompson's water seal.  There are lots of other products on
    the market and every time I get concrete done I get another
    recommendation.  I've used it to seal my garage floor, and a cellar
    floor under a 3 season porch.  It's held up well.  Very easy to
    clean the dampness doesn't come through and oil spills just wipe
    up.

    
    how about a garage floor that swets during the sumer humidity?
    will thompsons seal the floor, and reduce the sweting? the garage
    is under the house sectioned off from the cellar. the cellar floor
    doesn't swet. and its not sealed.
    
    steve
    

>    will thompsons seal the floor, and reduce the sweting? 

A sealer would have no effect at all on sweating, except perhaps to make the 
water bead up instead of soaking into the concrete.  The water is not coming up 
through the concrete, but is condensing on the (relatively) cold concrete out 
of the warm, humid air.

Paul

    
    	So, how about the problems (if any) of using Thompson's? Are
    	there any noxious fumes or can I apply it to the floor and
    	half walls in an enclosed basement without leaving the windows
    	open?  Will I have to wait 30 days for it to cure or does it
    	cure in a short time?
    
    							* MAC *

    I used some stuff called Drylok (or some such name) on my garage
    floor.  Noxious fumes?  YES!!!  It seems to be working pretty well
    though.  I got it at Coldwell's in Berlin, Mass.  The company makes
    a variety of concrete sealing products, for different applications.
    The one I chose is a clear coating.

    
    No noxious fumes with Thompson's and dries fairly quickly - a few
    hours.  I wait overnight and it's useable the next morning.
    
    There's only a paint like smell to it.  Sorta like using turpentine
    or linseed oil.

    
    Personally, I prefer permanent finish of epoxy paint.  Not the
    nice smelling "latex epoxy", though.  My mother painted 
    a couple of concrete floors in the basement, and it has held
    up for 15 years and still looks fine.  It certainly isn't
    as pleasant as Thompson's water seal, but it is definitely 
    permanent.
    

    If your putting down a sub floor and have no unusual moisture
    why bother trying to seal the concrete. Some one mention that
    sealing was not going to stop humidity type moisture, and this
    is very correct. A good dehumidifier might be manditory for the
    summer months, I have the same situation, since then my walls have
    not produced any moisture at all. I had seen a  This Old House show
    that finished over a basement, the did not use any sealer. They
    put presure treated 2x4s, 4" side down, 24"CL, foam insulated between
    and put yellow pine plywood on top (yellow is expensive, subtitute).
    you might be adding to your already long project ahead of you
    
    hope this helped you, by any means it won't hurt if you do!
    
    the dehumidifier is a GE 40 pint and drys out over 1200 sq ft.
    It also stopped all my cold water pipes from sweating as well!

    
    RE: .11
    
    Why one might want to seal the concrete ...
    
    Moisture can indeed come up from the floor if there is no vapor
    barrier when the water table is high.  Sealing can help this
    (provided the cracks are also sealed with caulk or something else).
    More importantly, a good vapor barrier seal can help prevent radon
    infiltration.  And a little prevention now is a lot easier than
    trying to fix it later.
      
    As for what "This Old House" does ... I sure wouldn't base any of
    my decisions on what Bob Villa does.  He seems to be short on common
    sense and long on arrogance.
    
    Just my 2 cents,
    -tm
    

    Yes you are correct .12 with a little work now can save more work
    in the future, but if your water table has potential to come up
    that high, i would reconsider even finising off my basement.
    
    as for This Old House, i do take most of what is shown with a
    grain of salt, but in this case of subflooring the basment, it
    was the best idea i had seen for it.
    
    Myself, i had to cut subflooring out of my basement plan, it would
    have cost me an extra $1,000 (tops, but depends on size), i feel
    that it is something that i can always go back and do if really
    needed. Putting in the Floor also was going to put a damper on
    my head height, another concideration.
    All my Sheet goods, and carpeting seem to be working out fine
    right on the concrete.
    
    
    jim

I'm in the process of building (adding) closet space in my basement
family type room. I'm making this closet space extra deep and wide.
32" deep X 12 1/2 ft long. I'm using raised panel bifolds in two closet
openings 60" wide. Here's my problem: The room was finished off a few years
back and has carpet/pad over a concrete floor. Not wanting to tear up the
carpet, I cut in 2x4 pads to be fastened to the concrete with a power nailer.
Normally, in new construction, I would have built the wall, fastened it in 
place and then cut out the bottom plate at the door openings. When I nailed
the 2x4 bolks, I had some splitting of the wood. The blocks still seem to be
secure, but would lagging the blocks in with anchors/ bolts have been a better
way to go? Any idea's. Pre-drilling the blocks and using a depth limiting 
washer?

Ross

    
    
       Try calling Closetworx,Inc 582-4507, a new company that just
    opened in Leominister. The owner is a gentlmen named Bill Spring.
    He designed and installed closet work for my brother's house. He
    does a great job and might be able to help you out.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Rick

    I had the same problem when using teh nail gun to fasten short 2x4s
    to my cellar walls.  Pre-drilling for the nails solved the problem.
    Drill holes slightly smaller than the nails.

    Hi, Ross. 
    
    You may have been using too-dry wood also. Wet, pressure-treated
    wood seems to hold up well to power-nailing, as does plywood-laminated
    samples. Screw a piece of plywood to the shorter or drier pieces
    and then nail through the plywooded side first. Use thin plywood
    or you'll need longer nails to penetrate sufficiently. By the way,
    are you coming to NIO this year (for gainful employment)? 
    
    Mike 
    

>< Note 3000.3 by SALEM::M_TAYLOR "I drink alone...Care to join me?" >
>                     -< the "BONE" factor (dry as a bone) >-
>
 >   Hi, Ross. 
 >   
 >   You may have been using too-dry wood also. Wet, pressure-treated
 >   wood seems to hold up well to power-nailing, as does plywood-laminated
 >   samples. Screw a piece of plywood to the shorter or drier pieces
 >   and then nail through the plywooded side first. Use thin plywood
 >   or you'll need longer nails to penetrate sufficiently. By the way,
 >   are you coming to NIO this year (for gainful employment)? 
 >   
 >   Mike 
    

Thanks for the info., I'll give the advice a try. Yes, I'm on my way to NIO.
(Actually, returning after being away for 10 years or so).

Ross

    Use construction adhesive.
    

    
    
    Is it necessary to always add 4 or 5 inches of crush stones before
    pouring concrete on a walk way? Is it ok to just add wire mesh and
    the pour the concrete? What is the crush stones for?? Thanks again
    for the info....HH
    

    Crushed stones help provide drainage so that they will be LESS chance
    of ice heaving.  It is not mandatory to have crushed stone under a
    concrete surface.  
    
    In the south, seldom do they put down crushed stone base for
    residential use of any patios, walkways, driveways, etc.  Commercial
    roads to have a crushed stone base.  In the south, we do not have the
    problems with ice and snow and its effects. 
    
    You might look in 1111.26 Concrete and 1111.72 Patios_walks&walls for a
    list of other notes which discuss the pros and cons of concrete pouring
    and walkways. 

    I had a problem with a driveway (asphalt) which was put down over
    the bare ground with no preparation. I became a disaster within
    a few years for several reasons;
    
    		The driveway settled with car traffic and took the 
    		shape of the ground underneath, and
    
    		Tree roots continued to grow and ruptured the surface
     		because of the constant push.
    
    While things may be different with concrete, there is a lot of weight
    involved and it will push down heavy, so you will want to provide
    some form of load distribution and a couple inches of preparation
    would do no harm. I expect where asphalt has some give to it, these
    same conditions with concrete would cause it to crack.

    I used a stuff this weekend which was designed to 'chemically adhere'
    new concrete to existing concrete. I opened the container and noticed
    a VERY FAMILIAR smell. It was a thicker white paint-like, water
    based substance. As I painted it on, it hit me! The smell was exactly
    like ELMER'S WHITE GLUE!  Could it be?  Has anyone used this
    stuff before? Does it really work like it says?
    
    Mark

    In a previous life (before Digital) I work in research on just the
    product you are refering to.  Yes, the stuff we were developing created
    a bond that was stronger that the actual concrete material.  Failure in
    pressure tests were in the concrete and not at the joint.

    The stuff we were working with didnt look like elmers glue but then
    this was back in 1968 and Im sure the resins being used today are much
    different that back then..

    Bob
    

    
    Elmers Glue is water soluable.
    

    It probably isn't, but I DID notice that during the last rain
    storm, a few drips turned white again...
    
    Who know's, but I guess it doesn't matter since it seems to
    work fine!
    
    Mark

    I just finished removing the rust from and repainting the metal
    railings in front of my condo, and now I would like to remove the rust
    stains on the concrete steps. Does anyone have any suggestions for
    removing rust stains from concrete.
    						Thanks,
    						  Peter

    
    When I did my rails I used a wire brush to clean the rail, and then
    I used the wire brush on the concrete. It great job. The other thing
    that might work is navel jelly it works to disolve rust on metal.
    I don't know how it would react to cement, might just want to try
    a little on a small out of sight spot to see.
                             
    
    

    Use muriatic acid and lightly wire brush (wear protective clothing)
    and then flush with water.

    

Yankee magazine has a column called "Plain Talk" by Earl Proulx.  He answers
your specific question in the latest issue, though I don't remember exactly
what that answer is.

    Earl Proulx of Yankee Magazine says to:
    
    Get some oxalic acid from a drug or paint store.  Dissolve about
    4 ounces in a quart of hot water.  Apply to stain and let dry. 
    Sweep up the crystals that remain; repeat if necessary.
    
    As a side note.  This issue, Mr. Proulx seemed somewhat unhappy
    that he seems to get the same questions all of the time.  He prefaced
    this issue with:
    
    Since the same questions keep arriving in my mail, I've put the
    answers all together in this column.  I hope that you readers will
    keep this page for reference.  I look forward to seeing some new
    and different questions from you.
    
    Ed..
    

>    As a side note.  This issue, Mr. Proulx seemed somewhat unhappy
>    that he seems to get the same questions all of the time.  He prefaced
>    this issue with:
    
Hmmmmm, where have I heard that before? 

Maybe Paul Weiss could help Earl put together an index and then refer
the repeat questions to that. :-) 

Charly

        I hope to be pouring my deck concrete tubes next week.
    Does anyone know of a place in the North Shore/southern NH area
    that sells ready mixed concrete, Trailer style?  I want to avoid doing
    the mixing myself because I have little experience in mixing concrete
    and don't have a mixing unit.  I have 5, 4 foot x 12 inch tubes to fill, so
    I think I'm talking about 15-18 yards of concrete.
    I read earlier of a place out near Framingham that supplies small
    quantities of ready mixed concrete, but I need someone reasonable
    in the North Shore.  Btw, I live in Topsfield, MA.  
                                                     
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

    re: .0
    
    My calculations come out to about 15-18 cubic feet of concrete, not
    cubic yards.  That's a huge difference.
    
       Gary

    You can usually rent a mixer from a place like Taylors for a reasonable
    amount (I had one at $39/day). It came apart so I was able to fit it in
    the back of an Isuzu Trooper II, and it definitely makes the job
    easier.
    
    Eric

    
    	As I know the terminology, yards, as refered to volume of a solid,
    is cubic feet.  
    
    I once heard that it takes about 3.3 bags of concrete to fill a
    4 foot sona tube.  Maybe that's where I got the #15-18 from.
    
    Just to double check myself:
    
    Vol of Cylinder = Pi (r) sqared (length)       Length = 4ft
                    = Pi (1/2 ft) squared (4 ft)   diameter = 12 inches
                    = Pi (1/4 ft squared) (4 ft)
    		    = Pi ft cubed
                    ~ 3.15 ft cubed
    
    					3 ft = 1 yd
                                      (3 ft)cubed = 1 yd cubed
                                       27 ft cubed = 1 yd cubed
    
    So, I need about 16 ft cubed or a little over 1/2 a cubic yard.
    
    I think that makes sense now.  Thanks for pointing out my oversight.
    It looks my yards interpretation was incorrect.  "Yards" I guess
    refer cubic yards.
     
    Cheers,
    Paul
                      

    Eric,
    
    	If I do rent a mixer, do you know what concrete or list of
    ingredients I'll need.  I mixed concrete with my dad years ago and
    I think he used cement (portland #1), sand and gravel/stones.
    I also heard of a ready mix bag of concrete beginning with an S
    that some people use.  Any advice on what to get?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

    Having just finished a deck maybe this will help.  I had 
    six 4' X 8" tubes to fill.  Each tube took about two 80 lb. bags
    of Sakrete.  So yours would require 3 bags per/tube.  The only thing
    you need is a wheelbarrow, water, and shovel.  It's a little work,
    but is really not that bad.
    
    					Steve

    I did a similar project that required 6  "tubes".  I used a
    mixer and did not regret it.  You need portland cement, sand,
    and small stone.  The most common mix of ingredients
    is 3 parts stone, 2 parts sand, 1 part cement.  Mix this
    "aggregate" first in the mixer and then add water.
    
    I can't tell you how much of each material you will require,
    but a building supply should be able to.   You do have the
    hassle of transporting all this material home.

    Even though the cubic feet/yards has been resolved as an FYI, A typical
    concrete truck holds 5-6 cubic yards, and the HUGE  ones carry 7-8 cu.
    yds.
    
    
       fyi/bob

    	There are 2 places in Woburn that sell ready mix concrete by
    the yard and half yard in a tilt type trailer. One of the places
    is called Woburn Concrete Products, the other one is in the 
    yellow pages. If I remember correctly I paid app. $60 for a cubic
    yard last summer. They are quite busy on Sat. and you sometimes
    have to get there early to get a trailer (by 8:00 a.m.?) Also
    they push you to get the trailer back quickly so they can send
    it out again. I don't think they would pressure you to much
    during the week.
    
                                                             Wayne
     
    

    I have access to a mixer now and was wondering the pros and cons
    between using Sakrete or Cement/sand/gravel mix.
    Is one stronger than the other or cheaper?
    
    I have 3 holes dug and 2 to go.  Boy, they're a bitch to dig!
    I plan on pouring this weekend.                              
                                  
    Thanks,
    Paul
           
    

Re: .5

    a 12"  diameter  tube  has  2.25  times the cross section of an 8"
    diameter  tube,  so  if it took 2 sacks/tube for an 8" tube 4 feet
    long, it will take 4.5 sacks/tube for a 12" tube 4 feet long.

--David

    RE: .9      Dig holes, you must be crazy, I rented a Hydraulic
                power auger for $50, I dug 9 12" dia. holes in
                under 1/2hr......
    
                I used about 2 1/2 bags of concrete mix for each
                10"X4' tube...
    
    
    
    Royce

    Most building supply places have charts that tell you how many
    bags of it will take to fill a tube...

    So just ask when you get them.

    Ah yes, another episode in the "small amount of concrete" dilemma.
    (Too little for ready-mix, too much for self-mix).
    
    Last time I did one of these deals, I wound up with 20 bags of
    concrete (=1600 lbs) in the back of my car.  The exhaust pipe and
    most of the rear suspension were pinned to the ground.  Lucky I
    made it to where I was going.

    see 1748 for a similar discussion concerning installing a basketball
    "system".
    I opted for the delivered pre-mixed concrete and still don't regret it.
    But we are comparing $60 or $70 to 51 yr old muscles and patience.
    Your comparison may be different.

    			-< Don't forget the REBAR>-
      
    
    	Rebar is an important part of a concrete pier. Many a pier have
    been broken for lack of a little steel in the center. Even an old 
    bed rail would be enough........
    
    
    
    tony bogacki
    

    RE: .11	I ran into a sewer pipe about 2 1/2 feet down in one of my
                holes.  Would your hydraulic digger have gone through this?
    
    		
    to All 	Nobody addressed my last query about the pros and cons
                of Sakrete vs your mixtue.
                Not to mention the cost difference and transportation 
                problems with one over the other.
    
    Paul

re: .-1 (sewer pipe)

Are you suggesting that one should avoid power augers, rather than contact
your local utility companies for the location of buried cables/pipes?

Bob

    RE: 17
    
    I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.  All I asked was what 
    wound one of these hydraulic diggers do when encountering a sewer pipe?
    I would guess that it wound do one of two things;
    1. make a lot of noise and stop with possible damage to pipe and
       digger.
    2. go right through it as if is was a hollow rock.
       
    My septic system is 30 years old and not on any record at the town
    hall.  
    
    Maybe a metal detector could have identified it.  Since I was hand
    digging the holes I wasn't too worried about mapping the pipes 
    before hand.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul

Gee... I didn't think about that, Paul!  8-) <--red faced

I thought when you said sewer pipe, you meant PUBLIC sewer pipe (only kind
I ever had).

I guess given those circumstances, hand digging is best.  In which case, 
I would recommend a hand auger, rather than a post hold digger, unless
big rocks abound (Like in New England!)...   But that's just because I
*HATE* post hole diggers!  8^)

Bob

    Re: Sakrete vs mix-your-own.
    
    The obvious difference is cost.  Components of concrete are very
    cheap.  They make a lot of profit on premixed bags.  But on the other
    hand, for a few bags, the convenience is well worth the price.
    
    The other difference is that Sakrete is a standard proportion mix.
    If you need a cold-weather mix, slimy mix or other variations you
    have to do it yourself.  Probably a non-issue for most applications
    in here.
     
    My experience is that Sakrete concrete mix is fine, although you
    may find it a bit stiff with the suggested amount of water (just
    add a bit more).
    
    However, Sakrete mortar mix is woefully short on lime, which makes
    it difficult to "butter" onto relatively smooth surfaces (like smooth
    bricks).  I'm told adding lime works.
    
    

    
    Re: .20
    
    I also noticed that the pre-mixed mortar seemed harder to work with
    than self mixed... At the time I thought it was just my imagination...
    
    Jim, any idea how much lime to add for one bag of the stuff?
    
    /Steve e.
    
    

    Nope, the only mortar work I do is concrete blocks below grade where
    you can't see my wonderful masonry skills.  And with rough, porous
    block the Sakrete is OK.   All I know is you should add "some" lime
    to do brickwork.

    RE:20   Jim,
    
    	Thanks for your insight.  I've decided to go with the sakrete
    now, since it would be quite a hassle for me to get all the materials
    for a mix-it-yourself job.  I have the loan of a van and a cement
    mixer, that takes up to two bags, so all I need now is to finish
    digging my holes and get on mixing.
    I am using the "L" bars to anchor my posts, so I need to support
    and align these while the concrete is setting.
    
    Thanks for all the comments and tips.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul  

RE: .23 (...and a cement mixer, that takes up to two bags...)

In the trade, mixers are rated by the bag (n-bag mixer), meaning that it will
mix a batch using n bags of _portland cement_, which are a cubic foot each.  In
a 1-2-3 mix with sand and gravel, this gives 6*n cubic feet of concrete.

An 80# sack of Sakrete makes .6 cu-ft.  So an n-bag mixer would handle 10*n
sacks of Sakrete.  Maybe your loaner is not a "2-bag mixer", but if it is, it
will mix 20 sacks of Sakrete!  You probably don't want to mix that much at
once, but it would be convenient to mix 1 or 2 tubes-worth at once.

    I removed a deck from my yard.  The deck was bolted to a concrete pad.
    The deck is gone but the bolts remain sticking up from the concrete
    pad.  There are about 12 bolts.  They are each about 1/2 inch in
    diameter.  What is the best way to remove them?  People have suggested
    
    . hacksaw
    . long-handled bolt cutters
    . welding torch

    sawzall
    

>    
>    . hacksaw
>    . long-handled bolt cutters
>    . welding torch

4" - 4 1/2" electric grinder

    
    
           DYNAMITE
    
    
    
    
    
    ;^)
    Chris D.

    Cut first with a sawzall and then use the disc-grinder to grind
    it flush with the cement........the ground down stubs will look
    like decorative jewels embedded in the concrete :-).

>< Note 3316.4 by CECV01::SELIG >
>                               -< CUT and GRIND >-
>
>    Cut first with a sawzall and then use the disc-grinder to grind
>    it flush with the cement........the ground down stubs will look
>    like decorative jewels embedded in the concrete :-).


Why??? The grinder I have will cut and grind flush before you even get
your sawzall blade changed.

Ross

    
    
    	COLD CHISEL

    Well, I did the job with a 4-1/2" angle grinder.  It did the job
    well, but the sparks almost set fire to myself and the yard!
    Thank you all for your suggestions.  Also, rather than looking
    like "shiny buttons," all of the stubs almost immediately took
    on a veneer of rust.  

Rust?   You mean you didn't seal 'em?   Well, you'll just have to polish
them over again!  8-)

Bob

    On the other hand, now you can drill them out, and fill the hole
    with concrete patch for a more uniform look (and to prevent future
    rust stains).

Some of the replies to this topic deal with where/how to get a small load 
concrete.  I'm building a deck, and I had that problem just this week.
I needed just about half a yard - too small for real delivery, a bit much
for Sakrete and a bucket (other people's opinions notwithstanding).
I asked at the local rental place about the 2 cu. ft. electric mixer,
but then I'd have to fetch a ton of raw materials too.
He told me about an outfit called Concrete Express.  They operate
out of Natick, Mass. and (apparently) some home centers and contracter
suppliers have dealings with them (Handyman in Marlboro, for example).
They have a special truck that mixes concrete on-site, and meters it.
"You pay for what you use, and no more."
The truck has separate compartments for sand, gravel, cement, and water.
It's mixed in an auger that delivers it to a chute, where it dumps
into your job (or wheelbarrow, or whatever).  The truck has max capacity
of five yards.  
They charge $75 just to show up ($50 if you use more than 3 yards),
and $65 per yard.  I ended up with just under half a yard, and it
cost me just over $100.  I figure Sakrete would have cost me half that.
$100 is a bargain, in my mind, compared to lugging raw materials, 
premixed or not, and mixing, shoveling, and dumping.

This guy has been in the business about two months.  He told me about
how his suppliers test his loads for mix and do test cylinders for him
and such.  He says there's a guy in Bernardston with a 10 yard version 
of the same truck.

My tubes look okay, about like the last ones I did when I did use Sakrete.
If they crummble into dust, you can be sure I'll report back here.
The Natick phone number for Concrete Express is 508-653-1512.
They say that same-day delivery is usually possible.

- tom]

PS: The guy at the rental center recommended against the trailer systems.
He says that separation of the mix is a problem because of vibration
on the road, and lack of remix capability in the trailer.
This was the rental guy, not the Express guy, so he had less of an axe
to grind.  Take it with a grain of salt, though.

	It has been a while since I last replied to this note but I have found
something better than the SAKRETE stuff. It is called ROCKITE. You chisel away
all of the smooth surfaces and make a mix that is the consistency of a real
thick milkshake and pour it in. After a couple of minutes, trowel it and you
have a patch that is as good or better than the surrounding concrete.


							Robert

If your basement is dry you don't need a dehumidifier.  Properly sealing the
basement walls and floor eliminates the cause of the problem.  My house
must have been built on a stream bed.  When there was heavy rain ground
water would seep up through the floor and actually puddle.  However, I was
able to totally solve the problem by doing the following:

1	Painted the floor with two coats of Thompson's Water Seal.

2	Painted the walls with Dry Wall paint from Rickel home center.
	This is an acrylic, totally waterproof paint which fills the 
	concrete and expands as it dries.

3.	Sealed the seam between the foundation floor and walls by drilling
	out the seam and filling with hydraulic cement.

After doing this the basement has been totally dry during the worst rains
of the season.  It also has no trace of dampness.  I am relocating and
have had the house inspected by two appraisers.  Both of them remarked that
the basement seemed very dry and not musty.

Regular dampness would be eliminated by the first two steps.  Actual seepage
is cured by #3.

Bill Norcott

re .14:

Why did you use Thompson's Water Seal on the floor and Dry Wall paint
on the walls?  Why not the same stuff on both?

The Dry-lock (tm) stuff I used stated that it wouldn't wear properly in floor
applications. The waterseal should infiltrate the concrete and wear better

>Why did you use Thompson's Water Seal on the floor and Dry Wall paint
>on the walls?  Why not the same stuff on both?

The Dry Wall paint is really much better than Water Seal.  It is acrylic
and also contains some kind of mineral fibers.  It fills all the pores in
the concrete and expands as it dries.  However, it is very expensive at
(if I remember) $15-20 per gallon, and a gallon covers a very small area
because the paint is extremely thick.  It takes a long time to mix the
stuff and it emits noxious fumes.  

Thompson's Water Seal is much cheaper (around $10/gallon on sale) and 
covers a much larger space per gallon.  But it is not nearly as effective
at waterproofing, especially at resisting the hydrostatic pressure which
is trying to force the water in.

I did just the walls with the Dry Wall for several reasons:

	1.	The walls are more of an uneven surface than the floor
		Needs the Dry Wall to fill it in, whereas Thompson's
		goes on easily on the floor, which is smoother.

	2.	Water seems to seep in through walls not the floor
		during heavy rain

	3.	The Dry Wall seemed to expensive to use everywhere

	4.	The Dry Wall is bright white and has a rough texture.
		Didn't seem like it would look right with the floor.
		(After the fact, the Thompson's seemed to stain a
		little in some places).
			

The Dry Wall paint is expensive but really works,  I have been very
impressed and satisfied with it.

I am keeping the Thompson's to seal the porch of my new house.

Bill Norcott

    
    I am trying to finish my basement, I jamed the furing strips to the
    with concrete nails, But the problem is the nails are not going in
    all the way. I was thinking may be I can cut the nails after I ams
    done with hack shaw  is this a good idia, or am I going to have
    hard time cutting those concreate nails???
    
    
    any suggestions, need all the help I can ge.
    
    thanks in advance
    

Basically, forget it.  The nails are as hard as the sawblade, and will 
instantly rub off the teeth.

See note 1111.4 for other options of attaching things to concrete.

Paul

As I recall, concrete nails are pretty brittle.  Can the exposed parts
be broken off by a sideways whack with a hammer?

>As I recall, concrete nails are pretty brittle.  Can the exposed parts
>be broken off by a sideways whack with a hammer?

Yes, they can but the ends take off like bullets! Wear a face shield and
make sure no one else is in the room.

re.3  That's absolutely correct.  I was hit smack on the forehead by one of
those projectiles.  It was removed by one of the guys on site with a pair of
needle nose pliers.  Yes, I was wearing safety goggles and wished I had been
wearing a full face shield.

    re 0 
    
    Instead of trying to "remove the remainder" why dont you try to
    drive it in? Try a masons mallet, IE: a mini sledge hammer.
    As far as alternate attachment methods try
    Liquid nails, or any good construction adhesive (PL400)
    Or try useing a nail gun  (ramset or hilti)
    
    
                       rgds/bob
    
                      

    
    
    Thanks for all the info, I ended up using the Liquid nails to secure
    the furing strips to the wall, and then I simply bend those nails in
    to the wood, so they do not stick out...
    

    I've been puzzled by references to "liquid nails" a few times in this
    notesfile. What are they; I don't think we have them in the UK.
    
    They certainly conjure up a bizarre image!
    
    dick

    liquid nails is a type of glue, usually used to hang indoor paneling.
    
    
    It comes in a tube, similar to window corking, and can be applied using
    a cork gun........
    
    Lou

    Corking?!?! you surley mean caulking, and caulking gun.

    
    
    Yup..........
    
    Meant caulking..............
    
    However I hadn't had my morning coffee yet
    
    
    Lou

    There is some more good discussions on liquid nail in note 548.  I was
    just in here looking for notes on nail guns 'cause I'm going to start
    working on my cellar next week.  After reading the stuff in note 548,
    I may not bother with the gun.
    
    Chris D.

    	I just noticed, (and ordered some) concrete screws in the
    Trendlines catalog. $27 for 100  1/4" X 4"    I plan to use these to
    attach shelving to basement walls. Supposed pull-out strength: 2100
    lb. ea.
    	I still think I'll put some PT 2 X 4s between them and the slab to
    bear the vertical load, and maybe some PL 400 on the screw-attached
    pieces, too. [and how about those lead masonry anchors too? Would you
    call that belt and suspenders and drawstring too?] 
    	

I have a shower stall in my bathroom that is about 25 years old. The base of
the shower is a pad of concrete which was tiled over. Recently the tiles on
the base started lifting off. No problem I thought, I'll just remove all the 
tiles, put down new mastic and new tiles. However, the concrete pad has
apparently deteriorated over the years so that if I apply moderate pressure 
against it with the blade of a screw driver, I can dig a deep furrow in it.

Can anybody think of a way to harden up the surface to stop any further
deterioration before I re-tile it?

Hi All,

	I have a question on cracks in a cement basement floor.  I have a new
home that we had build in southern N.H.  The foundation was poured in
early DEC. 1988, and the house was finished May of 1989.  Unlike this passed
winter the '88 winter was mild.  Now there are cracks in the basement floor.
I did talk to the general contractor about the cracks he said it was 
normal, I find that hard to believe.  Any way the house is still under the 1 
year warranty.  I just like to get some info from you folks as to whether I 
should force the general contractor to come in and fix the cracks?  Also 
am I right to assume that cracks in the floor should not be normal, or
is it normal if its poured in the winter time?

							- Rick -

    Floors generally will get some cracking, which is not structural
    since all the slab does is serve as a covering over the dirt (this
    assumes a basemented house and not one built on a slab). I doubt
    that there is any way to totally avoid them (I've had them in all three
    houses I've owned, and unless water is leaking in, I just seal the
    cracks with silicone caulk for radon purposes.
    
    Eric

    It is indeed "normal".  Concrete has great compressive strength,
    but very little tensile strength.  It's pretty easy to crack
    concrete if there is any tension or "bending" force on it at all.
    Now, it's possible to spend a lot of money on preparation,
    reinforcement, thickness of concrete, etc. and pour a slab that
    *probably* won't crack, but it's not really worth the money.  The
    cracks don't do any harm.

    Is Dry Wall the actual name of the product.
    
     

    	Followup to .12      I have wasted a lot of time with the Tap-Con
    fasteners I mentioned in .12 and wish to warn others of the
    difficulties.
    	1) The fasteners operate by screwing into raw concrete via a
    drilled pilot hole. The drill for the pilot hole is just big enough to
    clear the shank of the screw. A masonry drill bit is supposed to come with
    the box of fasteners. It didn't.  After 2 months, I finally got them to
    send the drill. It's a long length 3/16" masonry bit (smallest I've
    ever seen). (I've seen these (typically painted blue) at hardware stores
    without the bit, ment to be used with lead expansion anchors.) 
    	2) You need to drill the hole a bunch longer than the fastener to
    allow for some powder buildup in the hole. Blowing out the hole with
    compressed air after drilling helps some.
    	3) For the 4" long fasteners - going thru 1.5" of PT lumber and into
    2.5" hole in concrete - the torque required to screw the fastener in is
    virtually too much for the fastener head. It's only a 5/16" hex head
    with a worthless screw slot too. A 1/2" drive air impact wrench with a
    1/2 to 3/8 adapter and 3/8 to 1/4 adapter and 5/16 hex socket just
    barely does it! And you ruin the tiny socket after a short while!.
    	4) I've tried countersinking the hole with a 1/4" bit so only 1" or
    so of the fastener is biting, but that is very touchy.
    	5) So, I went back to lead expanders and bolts. I tried NC bolts
    and had some success, but problems, too. I finally did it right with
    lag screws/bolts into the expanders and it's fine now. (You really need
    the deep threads on the lab bolts to work with the lead expanders.)
    	- a wiser Chris
    ps. The rest of the shelves will not be anchored to the concrete. Just
    a dab of PL 400 for stability (the verticals are fastened to the exposed
    joists above, so I don't need much more). - C

    For lack of no other logical place to put this I figured I'd try
    here.
    
    I plan on having a 12'x24' concrete slab off the back of my house
    using 3 expansion joints. One butting the foundation and the two
    others at 8' intervals dividing the slab into 3 12'x8' sections.
    
    The question I have is that since I will be paying $70/hr to have
    the concrete pumped up my 100' driveway, how do they pour 3 seperate
    sections in one day. Doesn't the two outer ones need to be set up
    first and than attach the expansion joints, then pour the third
    section at a later date.
    
    The reason for the pumping is that I do not want to risk craking
    the driveway and all other areas are inaccessable to the truck.
    The concrete is costing $50/yard and I'll need 4 yards. the pumping
    is $70 per hour plus 1hour travel and $2/yard.
    
     Does 150 bags of ready mix sound like too much to mix myself in a mixer?
                                      
    Thanks,
    Drew
    

Drew,

That's a lot of concrete to mix; even with a rented mixer;
pumping is the only way if you're real concerned about cracking
your drive way.

Usually, the concrete poured on one section, with a section "dam"
made of 2X4 and the expansion joint material (usually felt). When
the cement is "plastic", they remove the 2X4 and move it to the
next section and build another "dam" until the last section is
ready, then they just finish the whole slab.

cheers

cal; hoe

    
    150 bags of ready mix cement used in a mixer isn't that bad. My dad
    and I did 125 bags for his patio in one day. We were dead tired
    but did it. This was 10 years ago and the patio still looks great.
    
    Just an option.
    
                                                Bill

    Why divide it into 3 8' sections ???
    
    Why not just pour the 12? x 24 in one section, do the usual groove
    twice to divide into 3 'sections' ??
    
    A few back mentioned the 2x4 dam.  Instead of a dam, use a temporary
    2x4 for a level used while screeding.  When you've finished the pour,
    pull the 2x4 and fill in the hole.  When the cement is set just right,
    groove the 2 cuts and edge it.
    
    Any cement slab like this will crack.  Only way to avoid that is to use
    pre-stressed and or use a welded rebar mesh.  The cuts force the crack
    to be in the cut and you'll never notice them.

    Yesterday I started a new note to ask about painting my basement, and
    the moderator (appropriately) write-locked my note because the topic
    was already covered in the conference. Well, I've read all the notes I
    can find, and I'm still confused. 
    
    As I stated yesterday, I'm working on my basement. It's old concrete
    and appears to be dry. My goal is to cut down on dust, hence a water
    seal seems appropriate. The kids, however, want to paint the floor
    neato colors. A complication is that this is a three-family house, and
    we have two floors of tenants who use the basement regularly to do
    their laundry, so we can't put the basement off-limits for an extended
    period. Quick drying is necessary. 
    
    I have several questions:
    
	Is it necessary to mop the floor? Some notes suggest that a
	vacuuming is sufficient. I'd like to avoid the delay of
	waiting for the water to dry. Also, there will be traffic
	introducing more dirt, if I don't do this in one lunge. 
	
	If we're going to paint, then I should use epoxy paint, NOT
	the latex variety? I'm interested in quick drying, remember.
	I'd like to do this Monday night, with tenants able to get
	to the laundry Tuesday evening. If I have to wait thirty
	days for the paint to dry, then I won't paint. 
	
	Should I use a sealer before painting? Or will that simply
	waste time and make the paint chip? Does anyone have
	experience with the Cuprinol sealer (our local NHD doesn't
	carry Thompsons and Spags is too far from Brookline, MA). 
	
    Thanks, NotHandyman (Hoyt)

    re: .19
    I think the bottom line is, how good a job do you want to do.
    If you want to be fanatical about it, you can do a lot.  If
    you just want yer basic painted floor, things can get pretty
    minimal.
    
    My suggestions, based on personal experience, intuition, and biases:
    
    Latex paint will be fine.  If you are extremely concerned about
    durability, epoxy is better, but personally I wouldn't bother.
    
    Somebody suggested etching with acid; again, I wouldn't bother.
    Concrete is porous, it absorbs paint well, and bonding is not
    a problem unless the concrete is disintegrating...in which case,
    etching won't help anyway.
    
    I might wash the floor first, especially since this is an old floor.
    Paint will not adhere well to the grime of ages (or, rather, the
    paint will adhere well to the grime of ages but not to the concrete
    underneath).  Vacuum first, then take a CLOSE hands-and-knees look
    at the floor and see if it still looks dirty.  Maybe a swipe with
    a mop in one section to see what happens, and if you discover you're
    mopping off the top layer of the floor, have at it and get it really
    clean.  Mopping, then another round of vacuuming when it dries,
    may be worth doing.
    
    I don't think you need to seal the floor first.  You could, but
    if the floor appears dry you should be fine with just latex paint.
    
    This won't be the world's ultimate concrete paint job, but it will
    markedly cut down on the dust and be durable enough so you'll probably
    be satisfied.
    
    My $.02

I'm pretty sure Ann & Hope carries Thompson's, and their prices are much
better that NHD -- of course, almost any place has better prices than NHD.

    I am not one of these fanatics that insist on using the best 
    materials and methods at any cost, but, I don't think you will have
    much luck cutting corners when painting a concrete floor.

    I remember having to re-paint the utility room's concrete floor in
    my parents house.  I may be exaggerating a little but it seemed like I
    had to do it almost every year.  It is so ingrained in my memory that
    I swore I would never paint another concrete floor.  Plain concrete
    looks much better than the painted floor after it starts to wear
    through in places.  It seemed to always look terrible!  The paint just
    never seemed to hold up under the traffic.

    I would use the sealer to stop the dust.  If you're just going to put a
    cheap coat of latex paint down - DON'T BOTHER!  You'll wish you didn't.
    This is one place I would either do it right or not at all.

    PS. This was quite a few years ago and the quality of materials
    available may have improved.  I still don't think latex is right for
    this application thou.

    -JFK-

    
    I've had good luck just using a coat of latex paint.
    No real prep except a good sweeping.
    
    							Hank

    Still confused! I am learning that people have greatly ranging results,
    putting paint on concrete, apparently because "concrete" has a great
    deal of variation?
    
    I'm leaning towards (1) vacuum, (2) latex, since it's easy and quick
    drying is important. I don't give a good durn what the floor likes,
    myself; I'm just trying to keep a couple eleven-year-olds happy. If
    they want another party NEXT year, and the floor looks crummy, then
    they can pull out the roller again; it'll do 'em good.
    
    Unless anyone else cares to offer their insight.
    
    - Thanks, Hoyt

    Concrete does indeed have a great deal of variation.  Some can
    be quite powdery; other can be so glass-hard you wouldn't need
    to paint it.  It's all in the mix ratios and how it's mixed, 
    poured, troweled, etc.
    
    My dad and I painted the cellar floor in my parents house some
    30 years ago, with latex, and although the heavy traffic areas
    are somewhat worn, in general it's still in good shape.  Now, that
    floor is pretty rough (lots of trowel marks) so although the
    paint got worn off the high spots there is still paint in the
    low areas.  It also seems to be pretty hard concrete, so it tends
    to resist powdering pretty well.
    I think we did use latex paint intended for concrete, although
    what the difference may be I have no idea.

    About 12 years ago i did mine with an oil base porch and concrete
    paint.  I think it was an alkalyde paint, stunk like hell till
    it dried (2-3 days).  Its still in good shape today except for the
    spots where i dropped something heavy or dragged a washer or dryer
    across the floor.
    

    
    I've used the concrete latex paint, and I really wouldn't recommend
    it for a floor.  It just doesn't seem very durable (used it on a
    wall).  Personally I'd go with 2-part epoxy.  Yes, it's a pain,
    but my parents used it 20 years ago and it still looks like new.
    If you do it right the first time you will never have to do it again.
    As for curing time, I'm pretty sure it would be a lot quicker than
    oil/alkyd paint.  I might suggest doing it in sections (mix paint
    before doing each section) if it's a large area.
    I think a roller would be the easiest way.      

    re. last:  I used 2 (equal) part epoxy paint (with preclean/etch, etc,
    exactly as instructed) on a new concrete floor many years ago and it
    has worn out, worn thru, worn away, etc. before 10 years were up. 
     	I don't bother now - just use the latex ment for concrete. I'd
    rather touch up every 5 years than go thru the clean-up hassle that
    the epoxy requires (I don't like to throw away roller covers after
    every use).  - Chris

    
    I have a short cement walkway 8 feet long and 4 feet wide and 4 inches
    deep. When it was poured, I was having the basement poured at the
    same time to cover up an area where a drain pipes were laid down. 
    Unfortunately somebody who was going to show up to help showed up late. 
    I was able to smooth out the basement pretty well and I thought the
    walkway was ok but it could have been done better with two people.
    Then the neighborhood dogs decided to pay me a friendly visit. When
    I got back outside, I saw the paw prints, I made an attempt to smooth
    them out but they became blemishes.
    
    I recall an earlier note that said to look out for the dogs ....
    
    Now the question is ... what can I do to smooth out the surface ?
    
    I would like to top coat it. They have two products:
    
    	a) something called masco which gets mixed with c21
    
    	b) topcover that you mix with water
    
        To cover 32 square feet costs about 20-25 dollars
    
        
    both these products have to be put on kind of quick. I am not
    too thrilled with that. Rather have a proffessional trowel it
    on since they won't make mistakes. 
    
    I was told by a masonry person that just putting something on top
    will not bind with cement well and will start cracking or become
    brittle during the first freeze. That I should just have the entire
    thing replaced. 
    
    The people selling the cement stuff says it works fine.   
    
    One masonry guy I called up told me to buy the cement, mix it
    and pour it - all 32 (80lbs) bags - glad I kept on asking. This
    is some of the idiotic advice I sometimes run across. I called up
    for ready-mix before but I was told by another that they
    don't make deliveries for such small loads (1 cubic yard) but
    that turned out wrong. 
    
    I have heard stories where people have poured cement but because
    they didn't have enough people to work it, it setup or solidified
    into a huge monstrosity that they later had to break up and try again.
    
    It seems those 'How to do it' cement pamphlets and books really don't
    point out all the pitfalls.  
    
    I used to have eight 2x2 blocks but was getting tired of the weeds
    coming up through the cracks. Even weed killer or black plastic
    never stopped them.
    
    What is your experience out there with correcting cement surfaces.
    Currently, I can live with it somewhat but it would be nice to have
    something to be proud of. When I sell the house in some future years, 
    I would like it to be nice looking.
    
    
    Darryl
    
    P.S.
    
    As an aside, when I called up the sewer department and talk to the
    chief inspector about where the sewer line connects to the drain pipe
    to my house (i have a corner lot but the drain goes out to the side
    but not sure where it ran under the basement - the 4 plumbers I had
    come up, scratched their head and couldn't figure out where the drain
    pipe went and they all ultimately guessed wrong) he indicated that the
    pipe came '7 feet from the right side of the house and 20 feet from
    the left side'. Now the size my basement is 28 feet long with a garage 
    attached, I took that to mean the left side starts at the drain pipe. 
    Because his english was very broken and was not clear. he meant to say 
    it came 7 feet from the front of the house. He did not properly explain 
    how to read the sewer maps either that I had previously got. This caused 
    alot of inconvenience. I ultimately looked at the closely studied myself 
    and deduced where the drain exited. The lesson is ... get second and 
    third opinions and clarifications and don't be embarassed about it.
    
    Hope this helps someone avoid the same pitfall
     
    
    

You might find some other useful information in notes 288, 372, 1283, 2639 and
2811.  I personally wouldn't try any sort of patch or skim coat.  It might
work OK in a basement, but on a walk subjected to the weather it would almost
certainly break apart eventually, leaving the walk looking MUCH worse than it
does now.  I'd either live with it the way it is, break it all up and start 
again, or put on something substantial - like 2" thick or so.

If you can live with the walkway raising by about 2" or so, then you might want
to consider brick.  You can get 4" x 8" x 1 1/2" pavers for about $.30 each,
and it should only cost a couple of hundred bucks to do the walk.  It's 
relatively easy to do even if you've never done it before (we can give you
pointers here if you decide to go that way), and it will look even nicer than
concrete.

Paul

Actually, as I read the base note again and saw the size of the walk, it should
cost only about $40 or so for the brick.  Counting mortar and sand and tools
it should still be well under $100 for the whole thing.

Paul

    I second Paul's idea ... the brick would look MUCH nicer, and since you
    obviously have a VERY solid base to work on, you won't have to worry
    about the bricks rising and falling individually and looking terrible
    after a few winters!
    

I'm a romantic, I guess.

	Dog footprints on concrete walk
	Grass in the cracks
	Undulating brick walk

I like 'em all.  Wouldn't bother me a bit.

I have a garage floor that for whatever reasons, was not smoothed at all. It
seems to be level, but there are up to 1 inch ripples from the board that was
used to level it. there are also sections where there are pock marks from the
mix not being wet enough to get a good finish, too much gravel. 

I'd like to be able to do something to smooth it out.  It will be out of
the weather, but it will have termperature swings.

Any suggestions?  This is a substantial garage floor and foundation, so
replacing it is out of the question.

I understand that there is a plastic adhesive that helps concrete bond together,
but wouldn't that also allow some underlying flex which might crack the
overlaying concrete? 

Jim.

    I found tubes of concrete caulk (latex based) at Home Depot and got out
    the trusty caulking gun.
    
    Since the cracks were above grade and no moisture coming in, it was
    mostly for aesthetic purposes.
    
    Worked fine and the sealer - True Value brand - went right over it.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Sealing concrete paint OVER the crack filler worked fine for me.
    
    	-Barry-

	I used a product called Damtite to seal my basement. It is
	available at Home Depot. 
	
	This is a concrete sealer. The display is impressive. Water
	pouring into a concrete block half painted with Damtite with water
	soaking thru only the uncoated side.

	For a previous painted basement, you'll need a bonding solution
	also. This is sold along with the cement based powder you mix with
	water and paint onto the cement.

	Bob

    Home Depot is on Rt 15 in Berlin Ct. It is the only place I have been
    able to find this sealer. I have called other places in Mass to no
    avail including Sommerville, HQ, Grossman's, Webber, and lots more.
    There will be a new store opening in Springfield next year sometime.
    It is a giant home improvements/lumber/dept store in a warehouse type
    building. 

    If you have mosture now, you may still have a condensation problem.
    Do you have a dryer down there per chance not vented outside? That
    was some of my summer water problem. The Damtite is to take care of
    the perimeter drainage that wasn't done right by my contractor before
    he went belly-up. That water comes in from the floor-wall area.
    Venting the dryer and turning the dehumidifier up to max has cured
    my summer water problems.

	

I'm looking at building a combination toolshed/playhouse and it calls for
3� cubic yards of cement for the 6'x8'x4" slab and post holes.  Is this
too much for DIY?  It would take about 12, 80 lb bags of cement and my
felling is that it would be better to have this amount poured and not to
do it myself.

Dave

That must be an awful lot of very large post holes.  The 6'x8'x4" area will 
take 16 cubic feet of concrete, or about .6 cubic yards, to fill.  That leaves 
more than 2 1/2 yards in post holes.  I think your math is off a bit somewhere.

If you really needed 3� yards, you'd need 117 bags of Sakrete - they are only
.75 cubic foot each.

Paul

The 3� yards came from the plans.  At Home Depot they have a chart and for 24
sq feet, 4" thick it said 12, 80 lb bags.  I guess these two figures don't
mesh...  I will have to make holes for 10 4"x4"'s as well.

So, is mixing 12-15 bags too much to expect to do in one day?  Or how many
people will be needed to do that much in one day?

Dave

>So, is mixing 12-15 bags too much to expect to do in one day?  Or how many
>people will be needed to do that much in one day?

Several years ago I mixed alot of cement (sand mix). At one point I was mixing 
12 - 14 bags an hour. I mixed and poured into a form, somone else spead.

I would say for 12 - 15 bags, using a hoe and a wheel barrow, one person, 
two hours. 

    Or spend a few bucks and do it the easy way, rent a portable electric
    mixer from your local Taylor or whoever you have. Lest time I got one,
    it was $39/day and well worth it.
    
    Eric

Out here there are places called cart-crete where you can buy a trailer of 
concrete trailer rental is part of the concrete price. The trailer holds 1.5-2
yards I hate working concrete so I go this route for anything over a couple of
bags.


-j

After breaking up concrete, where can it be gotten rid of?

Steve

    Re .11 & "cart-crete"
    
    Know of any in the Nashua, NH area?  I looked under "Concrete" in
    the Yellow Pages and no one advertised this service.

<	After breaking up concrete, where can it be gotten rid of?

When I had the same thing done last year, I had the workman use the rubble as 
fill behind the stone wall he was building for me. Killed two stones with one 
bird, since I got rid of the concrete AND DIDN'T have to pay for a truckload of 
additional stones. Of course, you may not have the same option  ;^)

Dave

    >>>After breaking up concrete, where can it be gotten rid of?
    
    We had quite a pile from replacing the slab in our 2-car garage
    and demolishing a wall made of concrete blocks.  The contractor
    buried it in the yard.  All he did was open up an extremely
    long and wide but not particularily deep hole.  Then he spread
    out the debris in the hole.  Finally, he covered it and regraded.

I concluded after buying my first house that contractors (or at least the
cheap ones) consider that anything under the surface of the ground doesn't
exist.  I found waste cement, an old driveway, and heavy duty plastic
wrappers within a foot of the surface, just from roto-tilling my yard.  
I found tree stumps farther down.  I have a feeling that .8 may become 
a "why did they EVER do that" story when the next owners try to plant a
tree, dig a new leach field, or whatever, in the area where the cement
blocks are, unless they are farther down than it sounds.  I've certainly
wasted a lot of time digging up garbage around my current house, although
in my case a lot of it is right on the surface, sigh.  Is stuff like this
better off in a landfill?  I think so, as nobody *expects* to be able to
dig down unscathed on the site of a former landfill.  Burials are fine if
they are deep enough, or placed such that they are unlikely to cause 
problems in the future -- I'm doing some of that myself.  But please, 
folks, remember that many other people are likely to own the house you 
are currently living in, and even more people will own the land.  

	Larry Seiler	

    Forgive me if I ask a cement question here even though my problem is
    not cement that has cracked.
    
    I had a cement pad poured around my inground pool 20 years ago and
    last year 2 sections started falling apart but just on the top layer.
    It is breaking up in little pieces and is making a mess. I keep
    sweeping it up and have put an old all weather green carpet over it
    so we don't hurt our feet. I guess I can take a small hammer and chip
    away until I get it all cleaned. But what would be the best stuff to
    patch it up with?

    Speaking on cracked cement, I want to seal my celler floor and there
    are some cracks in it, Can I just "paint" over these and let the sealer
    close the cracks up?
    
    ANd what would be the best sealer to use?
    
    Rick

    And, don't forget how Mother Nature has a way of working solid objects
    up to the surface if they aren't buried deep enough.  Frost heaves push
    up everything, then the smaller particles drop under the larger ones
    and hold them up.  Repeat this year after year and a lot of solid
    things come to the surface.
    
    Lee

    Does anyone have a rough idea on what it would cost to have a concrete
    slab but in? Size 9ft x 30ft by 6" reinforced. and also a sidewalk
    4ft x 30ft x 4". I got a cost of $2400 to do this any I would like
    to check it out.
    
    art filz
    

>    Does anyone have a rough idea on what it would cost to have a concrete 
>    slab but in? Size 9ft x 30ft by 6" reinforced. and also a sidewalk 
>    4ft x 30ft x 4". I got a cost of $2400 to do this any I would like 
>    to check it out. 
    
Sounds VERY high to me assuming you're JUST talking about pouring and
finishing the slab and NOT including paying for any of prep work
(digging and preparing ground, forms, etc.) 

For those two slabs you're talking about less than 7 yards or concrete,
assuming $65/ yard for the concrete, and $25/ yard to pour and finish
it, that's (65+25) * 7 = $630. I didn't include any costs for the 
reinforcing, so that could run a little more, but not $1770 !!!

Charly

    re.10
    What you have is called spalling and is causes from chemical damage to
    freezing or exposure to very high tempratures as in a fire.
    The only sure fix I'm aware of is to break it out and repour.
    
    
    -j
    

    I should have stated that the prices also includes digging,forming and
    hauling the cement down a hill that the cement truck is avaible to get
    down (wheelbarrels or pump needs tobe used). 3 men whould be working on
    the job.
    
    
    art

>    I should have stated that the prices also includes digging,forming and
>    hauling the cement down a hill that the cement truck is avaible to get
>    down (wheelbarrels or pump needs tobe used). 3 men whould be working on
>    the job.
    
Well, that's different. More Work = More Money. I've given the bottom 
line cost for a simple job, it's up to you to decide if the amount of 
work involved = the amount of money involved. And apparently ONLY YOU 
know how much work is involved since you left several important facts 
out of your intial question.

Cb

    Sounds reasonable given the fact that when I did my driveway my wife
    and I worked an entire week doing the prep work.  This was a 4" slab
    approx 24x24' and a walk about 4'x30.
    
    'Couse we did it all with hand tools.  With a backhoe it would have
    gone a little faster.  Then you pay for the hoe.
    
    Between the finishers and the cement it came to about $1000.  Now count
    in the prep and the concrete pumping (not cheap) and you're in the
    ballpark.

    I had a 26 x 28 ft x 6" thick slab formed, reinforced with 1/2" rebar,
    and poured and it cost me about $2300. But, I required no footings, the
    slab was just poured on a 3' thick compacted gravel base. This was in
    Maine, so labor would be less than what you'd pay in Mass, but the
    concrete and steel was the same cost. I think my concrete cost was
    around $70/yard, because they had to truck a ways. All included, it
    cost me about another $70/yard for steel/labor, so the job cost me
    roughly double the cost/yard of the concrete ($70/yard, $140/complete)
    	Things you may need to do that would make it cost more:
    
    	you might need footings, maybe required by state code depending
        on what you're going to use it for.
    
    	you might need to excavate the areas, and put down some type of
        appropriate base, such as gravel. (you can't pour on loam)
    
    If this was in Mass and if he was pouring footings and if he was
    digging/putting down a base, then I'd say it's not outrageous.
    Just use my figures, and add what you would consider an appropriate
    differential to adjust for the difference in wages.
    
    
    
    	And be sure to let us know what you do have done, and where this
    is. I'd be curious as to exactly what is included in his price (any
    excavating/gravelling/footings ?)

re .5:

>                                                              This was in
>    Maine, so labor would be less than what you'd pay in Mass, but the
>    concrete and steel was the same cost.

There might be a significant difference in the cost of concrete.  I've read
that the ready-mix business in NYC charges outrageous prices, way out of line
with the higher costs of doing business there.  I think the reason was that
the mob controls the business.  They probably give a discount on concrete
overshoes.

    Any more experiences with Drylok (sp?) to seal my garage and basement
    floors?  I went to Hammar Hardware recently and the person told me to
    use Drylok instead of Thompsons - supposed to better resist dust as
    well as water.  Any info. on how easy it is to apply (how is it done?)
    and how it performs/lasts?  Thanks.
    
    							-Sujal-

    I used Drylok to seal my basement walls and it works great! My
    brother-in-law used to work at Somerville Lumber and he said not to use
    Drylok on the floor - it won't stand up to traffic. I went to a
    Tru-Value hardware store (Steenbeke's in Salem, NH) and got one of
    their gray latex paints and it's worked like a charm - went on easily
    and has held up. Of course I can't remember the specifics except that
    it was a Tru-Test (Tru-Value house label) brand. I'll check when I go
    home tonight.
    
    BTW: Drylok is not as easy as a 'regular' paint to apply, but not too
    tough either. Have whoever sells it to you put it in the shaker just
    before you use it, it takes forever to mix it by hand. I used a roller
    to apply, and used a handbrush for those hard to reach spots. The brush
    weighed about 5 pounds (slight exaggeration) within a couple of minutes
    - this stuff is thick and heavy!

    Maybe stupid question:
    
    I'm going to paint my house within the next couple of weeks.  I'd like
    to paint the faoundation also, which currently is bare.  I'm talking
    the outside walls of which the back wall is completely exposed (ie
    walk-out basement) and the sides slope up to the front where maybe a
    foot of foundation is exposed.  The interior celler walls are painted
    in the front of the house (where the least foundation is exposed) and
    not painted at all in the rear or side interior walls.
    
    After I hose the foundation off, what comes first?
    Should I use a primer first(/at all)?
    Should I use a water sealer first(/at all)?
    Should I use a "garage/basement floor" paint?
    IS it o.k. to use something like Sears Best Weather-Beater which is
     what is going up on the house?
    If I don't need to prime it should I expect to need 2 coats. (BTW the
     foundation walls are a typical raw concrete gray and the grey we (I)
     are painting the house closely matchs it, but is a little darker.)
    
    I ask alot of questions huh?,
    Pointers welcome.  BTW The foundation is not the top priority as much
    as painting the house itself.  (Aluminum siding with original untouched
    28 yr old, highly chalked, now-multi-green/grey/blueish-colored paint job.
    I'm really looking forward to washing (scrubing) my house. :-{
    
    thanks,
    Steve......................

    re. 37
    
    	Thanks for the info.  How do I apply the Drylok?  Do I need to wear
    	any protective gear?  
    
    Also, since it appears that Drylok doesn't work well on floors, should
    I use Thompson's?  I don't particularly want to paint the floor...
    especially where I would like to do the garage floor also.  
    
    Thanks.
    
    								-Sujal-

    I used the True-Value stuff on the walls and it worked really well.
    
    Consumer Reports had a test of all the concrete sealers sometime last
    year, don't remember the issue.
    
    On the floors -
    
    1.	I want to do the garage floor - bare but old concrete - and will
    	probably go with an epoxy paint.
    
    2.	the basement floor - also old concrete - had stick-on vinyl tiles,
    	stick-on carpet tiles and vinyl tile (put down with mastic) in
    	different areas.
    
    	I am EVENTUALLY going to carpet, but for now would like to paint
    	the 'patchwork' of bare concrete, splotches of mastic, etc. so at
    	least it looks uniform color and has some moisture sealing effect.
    
    		ANYONE HAVE ANY RECOMMENDATIONS ?
    
    -Barry-
    

    How long should I let the concrete (basement floor and garage)"cure" 
    before applying any type of sealer?  My foundation was poured in July
    and the garage was done in August - when would be the best time to seal?
    Thanks.
    
    							-SKD-

    My inclination would be to apply the sealer as soon as possible.
    Concrete hardens chemically, not by drying out, and in fact is
    strongest when it dries out most slowly.  By this time it's all
    dried anyway, so it won't matter, but I suspect you could
    have applied the sealer about as soon as you could walk on the
    concrete and it would have slowed down the drying out process
    which would have been (slightly) beneificial to the strength of
    the concrete.

    I agree with .42  the guy who did my floors (Gary Ford) recommended
    that you seal them as soon as you can walk on it without making marks.
    He poured the floor in the morning did final finish in the late
    afternoon and I sealed it that same night with the sealer I bought from
    him. Two years on the garage floor no cracks no scale but it should  
    be resealed due some wear from the sand and salt from the cars.
    
    BTW when he did my basement 5-6 years ago I did not seal the basement
    right away like I had planned to. It quickly filled with building
    materials, tools, sawdust, boxes etc.. I'm still waiting to seal it once
    I get the time to clean it -;^
    
    Don
                                                   

    This is probably an easy question, but I wanted to get some opinions as
    to what went wrong...
    
    About 3 yrs. ago, we had some concrete steps built outside our back
    yard basement door (we have a walk-out basement).  About a year later,
    we started noticing that any water than got on the steps would cause
    a great deal of hissing and bubbling.  We also had a lot of horizontal 
    cracking.  Yesterday, the steps finally gave way.  I was able to remove
    whole sections of the steps with my hand, and now I basically have a
    pile of rubble where the steps used to be.
    
    Obviously, the guy who built the steps did something wrong, but I don't
    know what. 

	   It sounds like the cement was mixed wrong.  I'm sure there are
	people out here with much more experience, but I would guess that
	the guy didn't use enough water.  The correct mixture of cement,
	gravel, lime and water are critical to making good concrete.
	   Without enough water, the cement will not cure properly.  If
	not properly cured, the cement will deteriorate very quickly.  If
	lack of water was your problem, you may have been able to (literally)
	water your cement to aid in the curing process.  

					Tim

    RE: 44
    
    
    If the concrete was mixed on site the problem is could also be lack of air
    in the mix rather than water.  Also, as these are steps, I guess you
    might also be putting salt on them in the winter, which will destroy
    a bad mix pretty quickly.
    
    If you had a builder and used redi-mix you might have some grounds to
    ask them to re-do the work.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
      

    What type of concrete would be used for a cinder block wall?
    
    I'v noticed all kinds of different bags of "CEMENT" at  the stores.
    
    I need to firm up a cinder block foundation under my shed. The shed
    is on a slight hill so the back of the shed has 3 exposed layers and
    the front only only one.  I'd like to firm up the back layers with
    cement. Iv'e used concrete before and I believe it is too rocky for
    this application. 
    
    Thanks
    Steve

If you're talking about the stuff that goes between the blocks, that's mortar.

-Mike

    Help!!!! can someone help me on this....I would like to know if their
    is
    a chemical that I could use to clean the cement around my pool area?
    Thanks! Steve L..

    Hydrochloric acid, otherwise known as muriatic acid. But it would help
    to know WHY you are trying to clean it?
    

    I have modified this note to include 2 replies that were clearly out of 
place in another topic and then modified the title to reflect a broader 
topic of discussion.

    Vic as mod    

    I have a question maybe someone could help me out on?I have a built in
    pool and surrounding the pool I have cement that I would like to clean
    is their some sort of acid that I could use.
    
    steve langone 
    275-3916

    I've been told you can make a mixture of chlorine and water in a bucket 
    and SCRUB with a heavy duty brush.  I'll be doing this soon myself as a 
    lounge chair left a nice rust mark.  No more metal furniture!
    
    					Steve

    Thank you for your advise,but I have already tried that method.And it
    doesnt work....
    

    
    
      They have what they call muriatic acid. I know that Aubuchon carries
    it, I've bought some from them. I think it was somewhere it the area of
    $6.00 for the cost. Works good. Takes out rusty stains and the old
    look.
    
          -Al
    

    Thank you for your help,I will try that this weekend.Is their any
    special
    way you have to mix this acid?

    
    How you mix it depends on what you're trying to do. I've used muriatic
    acid full-strength out of the bottle to clean mortar off of bricks. If
    you're doing spot cleanup, this might be the way to go.
    
    If you're cleaning a large area, you'll probably want to dilute the
    acid. How much you dilute it depends on what you're trying to clean.
    You'll probably have to do some experimenting. Careful of the fumes!
    Wear clothing you'll never want to wear again, and use rubber gloves.
    
    JP
    
    Long ago, in another life (US Air Force) I worked at a multi-service
    site. The Marines kept the walkways in front of their barracks looking
    very nice indeed. They simply hosed down the concrete, spread some
    Comet cleanser, and used the electric floor buffers outside!

    The echos of high school chemistry...
    
    Always add acid to water, never add water to acid....
    

    Can you explaine?

>    Can you explaine?

    Which would you rather have splash on you?

    George

    If you add water to acid, you have a (relatively) small volume of
    water in a large volume of acid, at least initially.  Mixing water
    and acid produces a reaction that gives off energy, and with a
    small volume of water in a large volume of acid the energy can
    be sufficient to cause spattering of the acid.
    
    In contrast, if you add acid to the water, you have a small volume
    of acid entering a large volume of water, so the acid gets diluted
    rapidly and no spattering takes place.
    
    

Water is (usually) less dense than acid.  If you add water to acid the water
tends to stay near the surface, it heats up and starts to boil splattering
the acid.  If you add acid to water, the acid sinks, and while the heat is
still being produced, it is more evenly dispersed as the acid sinks.

re .1:

If muriatic acid doesn't help, try oxalic acid.  Bleach actually tries to do
the opposite of what you want to do to rust, so it won't work.

-Mike

    Not that I have a pool, but didn't the original question say it's a
    pool deck?  I wouldn't want to go swimming at that house.  Would this
    really be the safest way to clean it?
    
    just curious,
    Steve

�    Not that I have a pool, but didn't the original question say it's a
�    pool deck?  I wouldn't want to go swimming at that house.  Would this
�    really be the safest way to clean it?
    
    I don't think it would be that big of a problem. Acid dilutes pretty
    easily.  Besides, people throw quantities of acids and bases in the
    pool all the time to maintain pH (raw chlorine isn't that healthy
    either).

I've got a problem cleaning concrete in my pool area also. 
Unfortunately, my problem is the concrete is in the pool.

I have a guinite that has iron stains in the deel section as well 
as other areas. I have my water tested and have added Iron-out 
twice now as the pool store prescribed. The 1st time 1 qt.was 
added, the 2nd time, 2qts. 

I've seen little effect and frankly have little confidence left 
in the people who've I've been dealing with for a couple of years 
now. Has anyone else had this problem? Any ideas?

The pool is fine for swimming, but my wife isn't too happy about 
it's appearance :-)

daryll

    I hope I didn't start a problem in this file! Only kidding,hey thank
    alot for everybodys help

Just got back from the pool store again. After talking to the 
owner again, I'm starting to get an idea on why I haven't seen 
any startling results. (I have noticed some fading, but that's 
it) Seems that since I've got a 30k gallon pool, it's going to 
take a few qts to get the level of the metal control up to the 
point where it will eliminate the stains. From there, a few 
ounces every week will keep them away.

Now, another question: the Metal Control has all kinds of warnings 
on environmental control (Do not contaminate lakes, ponds or 
streams by cleaning equipment or disposal of waste.) and handling 
warnings (Do not get in eyes on skin or on clothing. If on skin, 
wash with water for 15 minutes, call a physician.)

How safe is this stuff to swim in? They say, no problem.

The only ingredient listed on the bottle is Hydroxyethylidene 
Diphosphonic Acid.

    This is a question related to driveways, rather than walkways, but I
    placed it here rather than start a new note.
    
    I have a concrete driveway that is in relatively good condition.  The
    problem is that a small "cavity" has developed under the concrete along
    one edge.  The cavity is approximately 1 foot square and 6 inches deep.
    I need to fill in this space soon because a hairline crack has
    developed on the concrete surface above the cavity (probably due to the
    weigh of my car driving over it and the lack of support beneath that
    section).
    
    What is the best way and material to fill in the cavity.  I've
    considered packing it with just soil, but the soil would probably settle
    and a small cavity would still be left at the top (and the cracked
    concrete would continue to be stressed).  Gravel seems like a
    possibility, but how do I pack it in tightly enough (and prevent it
    from settling like soil).
    
    Any advice would be appreciated.
    
    Marshall
    

How did it "develop"? 

If it's erosion, more soil would be a temporary fix.  Find the problem, and fix 
it first, then repair the damage.  Maybe filling it with concrete would work, 
and avoid the problems of getting it packed in.

    Well guess what guys,I went out and purchased some muriatic acid and
    diluted it with water.The acid worked great on the cement surrounding
    the pool are,looks like I just poured the cement yesterday.

    
    
    I'd pack some pea-stone in the hole.  Sounds like you
    have a water problem.  Depending on the location and grade,
    you might want to pitch or trench it away.
    
    JD
    

�How safe is this stuff to swim in? They say, no problem.
    
    I'd agree with them.  Have you read the lable on the chlorine you're
    dumping in there daily?  Generally speaking, chemicals in
    pure/concentrated form are more dangerous than chemicals which are
    diluted (which is what happens when you add them to 30k gallons of
    water).
    
    Think of it this way, you wouldn't want to mess with pure acetic acid,
    yet you eat a dilute version of it everytime you have a salad or a
    pickle.  It's called vinegar.

    RE: .12
    
    Thats true for Sulfuric Acid......when it mixes with water, it gives 
    off heat. If you add water to highly concentrated sulfuric, it will
    turn to steam and splash acid!
    
    HCL or Muriatic Acid doesn't have that problem....but....its
    a good habit to have anyway, since you might need to dilute
    Sulfuric or another type in the future.
    
    Marc H.

    After reading this note, I decided to brighten up our concrete
    driveway with Muriatic Acid.  The label specifically states that
    it does not remove rust stains and to pour the acid into water,
    never pour water into the acid.
    
    The instructions for concrete brightening called for 1/2 pint acid
    in one gallon water.  Etching called for 1 pint per gallon water.
    Neither solution did much for our driveway. Over the years, various
    paints have been spilled (in very small quantities) on our driveway.
    None disapperaed with the acid, even when used full strength.
    
    Jodi-

�    HCL or Muriatic Acid doesn't have that problem
    
    Are you sure about that?  I'm pretty sure that the mixing of any acid
    with water is exothermic (i.e. gives off heat).
    
    Remember AAA - Always Add Acid
    
    The density answer was correct.  Acids in general are heavier/denser
    than water.  Water will float on top of acid.  The water at the
    interface of the acid will heat up rapidly enough to form steam and
    cause the mixture to "boil over" resulting in spattering of acid. 
    Adding acid to water allows the heavier acid to travel to the bottom of
    the water, dissipating the heat of mixing along the way.

    Re: .26
    
    Don't have my chemistry books here now...packing up to move to SHR.
    
    Muriatic acid isn't very concentrated......but....still dangerous.
    I, myself, wouldn't add water to it, because any splashing would
    mean the "splash" would be the pure acid...density factor.
    
    I still feel that its not a "heat" issue....but...its really not
    that important. The splashing "safety" issue is a good enough reason
    to add the acid to the water.
    
    Marc H.

�    Muriatic acid isn't very concentrated
    
    That's probably why there isn't much heat liberated when mixing with
    water.  If it's already diluted to some degree, some of the heat has
    already been given up.

Commercial muriatic (hydrochloric) acid already contains a fair amount of
water.  This is because, 100% hydrochloric acid (hydrogen chloride) is a gas,
not a liquid. 100% sulfuric acid is a liquid and is commercially available.

-Mike

    To continue the rathole.
    
    I thought that 100% HCL was a liquid. I'll have to check my chemistry
    books.
    
    Marc H.

�    I thought that 100% HCL was a liquid. I'll have to check my chemistry
�    books.
    
    According to the 60th edition of the Handbook of Chemistry and
    Physics, it can be either a gas or a liquid, although it does list a
    boiling point of -84.9�C.

It's probably a liquid when under pressure, like propane or ammonia.

-Mike

    Checked out my college chemistry books last night. For thoses who care:
    
    1. HCL is itself a gas at Normal temp. & pressure. If it is perfectly
       dry, it is not an acid.
    
    2. HCL the acid, is the gas disolved in water. Muriatic Acid is a
       low grade acid with iron as an impurity ( gives it the color).
    
    3. HCL the gas is made by passing H2SO4 over NaCl. The resulting gas
       is then disolved in water to make HCL the acid.
    
    4. HCL Acid is one of the most strongest acids around. But, it will not
       affect Cu in any concentration.
    
    Marc H.

To the reply several back about cleaning the drive.  I wouldn't expect the
dilute acid to have much effect on the paint.  You'd have better success with
lye or a commercial paint stripper.

>  <<< Note 3260.34 by KAYAK::GROSSO "Prevent & Prepare or Repent & Repair" >>>
>                   -< use Toluine or a safer paint remover >-
>
>To the reply several back about cleaning the drive.  I wouldn't expect the
>dilute acid to have much effect on the paint.  You'd have better success with
>lye or a commercial paint stripper.

    
    Great, thanks for the suggestions.
    
    Jodi-

    
    My sunroom project is on the the move again, and I have a concrete prep
    question.
    
    I intend to put the sunroom next to the South side of ther house. All
    down the wall of house are lilac bushes. I've cust them down, and will
    get the roots pulled. Howeveer, what must I do to stop the roots
    growing back through the concrete slab I intend pouring?
    
    If some kind of weedkiller, any advice on brands/types?
    
    thanx ! Simon

                   -< killing roots before pouring concrete >-

>    down the wall of house are lilac bushes. I've cust them down, and will
>    get the roots pulled. Howeveer, what must I do to stop the roots
>    growing back through the concrete slab I intend pouring?
 
    Question, what kind of slab are you pouring? 4-5" of concrete with 
rebar in it seems like it would be a reasonable base for a sunroom.
If that is the thickness of the slab, I guess I have to wonder just how far 
you think the roots are likely to go with 4-5" of concrete on top of them?

If you are worried about the roots coming out around the edge  of the slab, 
won't the foundation around the edge stop them? Are you putting in a 
footing of cinder block or similar around the edge to support the slab? 

Last question, you will tamp the ground under the slab before you pour, 
right? You can't pour a slab onto soil that is at all loose or disturbed. 
If you tamp and then wet it down good and wait a few days before pouring, 
you ought to have a solid base to pour onto. 

    If some kind of weedkiller, any advice on brands/types?
    
>>>Obviously, I don't think you need a weed killer if you do a solid 
perimeter foundation and good slab. If you are still considering a seed 
killer, I use Triox from Ortho. A quart does about 75 sq ft if I recall and 
kills _ALL_ vegetation for up to a year. once your concrete is down, you 
won't have anything sprout under it a year later.

    	Vic

I just had a set of granite steps installed at my front door, replacing a
poured concrete set which had sunk over the years.  The walkway leading up
to the steps is asphalt.  I had a new concrete pad poured to support the
steps, but I've got a problem I can't figure out how to cope with.

The concrete pad comes all the way out to where the asphalt walk ends, but the
granite steps are just a bit shorter, 1-2 inches in some places.  This means
that there is some concrete showing in front of the steps. (In hindsight I
should have ordered the steps an inch or so longer, but...).

Normally, this would be a simple thing to cover up - just put some asphalt
patch in the gap.  But the concrete pad comes up to within a quarter inch of
the walkway, and I know that nothing I put on there in that thin a coat would
stick. (Or would it?)

What can I do to cover the concrete?  Do I need to chip away at its edge so as
to make more of a gap?  Do I somehow cut or drill "keyways" into it?  Is this
something I need to call a pro about?

					Steve

P.S.  I was pleasantly surprised at how inexpensive granite steps are compared
to other styles which don't look as nice.

>What can I do to cover the concrete?

      Without actually seeing your steps it is difficult to know if this
      is a reasonable idea or not, but you could just get some  driveway
      sealer (or even black paint!)  and put it on the exposed concrete.
      This should match the color of the asphalt, at least after  a  bit
      of  weathering,  and, if its an issue of appearance, it might just
      be an easy way to fix things up.

It's not unreasonable, but I worry that the sealer won't stick well to
the concrete.  (I was also told to keep petroleum-based stuff off of the
granite as it will stain, but I can handle that.)

				Steve

>It's not unreasonable, but I worry that the sealer won't stick well to
>the concrete.

      A  reasonable  concern.  I can't say for certain, but I think I've
      seen more than one  driveway  sealer  application  where  a  small
      amount  of  sealer  was  brushed  onto concrete where blacktop and
      concrete met.  I've never seen the sealer peel.  
      
      Perhaps you should ask the dealer or manufacturer of the sealer?

I've seen concrete driveways sealed with this stuff (why? Dunno) it seems to
hold up just fine.

-Mike

    When I sealed my asphalt driveway and walk last year, I also coated my
    bottom concrete step as the step is flush with the walk and always gave
    the illusion that there was one more step to go when in fact you were
    at ground level.  At any rate, the sealer is showing some minor signs
    of wear (from scraping what little ice and snow we last this year) but
    is not pealing on it own.

    -Bob

    We have a two foot section of concrete extending from the garage
    into the driveway.  Several years ago while we were sealing the
    driveway, we decided to put the sealer on the concrete extension.
    Unlike the previous notes, we were one of the unlucky people who
    had the sealer peel from the concrete.  So it doesn't always 
    adhere.

re: .6

Did you use the latex or coal tar based sealer?  (Just for a data point.)

I don't know which would work better in this application but the coal tar 
based one will probably adhere to anything.

Stan

    
    
    I am getting conflicting comments regarding a project I want to start
    next spring so I am hoping you all can help me out.
    
    I have a poured concrete patio that I would like to spice up a bit by
    installing brick pavers over it.  Sounds reasonable and easy enough to
    do but I was told that I should not attempt this because as water
    drains between the pavers then freezes, the paver will split and crack.
    
    This is due because a hard surface such as poured concrete does not
    allow for proper drainage.
    
    Is this true?  Has anyone installed pavers over concrete?
    
    Thanks 
    
     

    See the last issue of the The Practical Homeowner (Aug. I believe).
    They have an article devoted to pavers, etc. Pavers are rated for
    porous-ness. If you can find a variety of paver that you like and it is
    rated for a climate like New England, then you'll probably be OK.
    
    Best of Luck! 

I've been considering putting brick pavers over my front
steps (painted concrete) and front walk (concrete).  I'd
really like to hear from someone who's done it before or
a reference on a book I can read.  I'm looking for
info on how to prepare the surface, what kind of brick to 
use, etc.  I'd like to use bricks that are half-thickness to
keep from building up too far above the current surface of
the walk.  Do they make these?
Thanks,
John

    
    There is at least one company that makes half-thickness pavers, so I
    know they are available.
    
    The big question still remains: "In cold weather environments, can you
    install brick pavers DIRECTLY over concrete? "
    
    Has anyone done it?   Anyone told not to do it? 

    I have put pavers over concrete and right on the ground with no 
    problems.
    
    I have a raised patio (4 ft high). The outside perimeter is a brick
    wall, filled with gravel and 4" of concrete was poured. I laid 1"
    pavers on top of that in a small bed of concrete and after several
    weeks came back with cement and filled in the spaces. It has
    been in for 5 years and I have not seen any cracks or other problems.
    
    For my front sidewalk I layed down a bed of sand 2" thick, and came
    back with each paver layed in a 2" bed of cement. After it set
    I filled in the spaces between brick with cement. It has been in 
    4 years and no problems. 
    
    You should also realize that I live in Va. and do not have the severe
    freezing that you have. 
    

 Well, my cement stairs are covered with brick. I live in MA. The fact that the
bricks are set over the cement stairs has caused no problem. However a word
of caution. There are different typed of bricks, with various degrees of hardness.
I've been told that I have soft bricks on the stars. The edges, which over hang
the the bricks below, sometimes crack and brake off. In the winter you really 
cannot use salt to melt the ice. On my stairs, the pervious owner did this,
which caused a reaction, resulting in a 1/4 inch of the material to peel/flake
off. 

 The bottom line, it looks good, can be done, but just requires special care.

-bob

    I need some advice QUICKLY!  My builder is planning to pour the
    foundation for our new house this week, and plans to put 2% Calcium
    Chloride in the concrete mix so it won't freeze.  But, I have been told
    by a structural engineer that it's not a good idea to do this, since it
    will weaken the concrete, making it more likely to develop cracks in
    the future, and will eventually rust out the sill plate tie-down bolts.
    
    I understand that adding calcuim chloride is a common practice for cold
    weather concrete pouring, though it's not recommended in the code
    books.  Has anyone out there has out there had any experience with
    this?  Any problems developed?  Is there any other option for pouring
    in cold weather other than waiting until it gets warmer?  
    
    Overall, what I'm trying to decide is if I should tell the builder to
    definitely not use CaCl2 and just wait until temps stay above freezing,
    (maybe not till spring?), or just let him add it to the mix...Am I
    being overly cautious?

    
    Speaking of codes what's the building inspector say ?
    
    

    I built a chimney in the winter by adding calcium cloride solution to
    the mortar.  It has been many years and there are no problems.
    
    The books say this solution can weaken cement so it should be used in
    small quantities.  2 percent should be fine.  I don't think it will
    rust the sill tie downs in that concentration either.  It should be
    avoided if possible, but you really shouldn't worry about it.
    
    Also, freezing is not much of a problem either if its done right.  When
    cement sets, it releases heat.
    
    Bill
    

My foundation was done during a cold spell, and the contractor added 
calcium chloride and also put some hay over the top of the concrete for 
insulation.  I went out the night after, pushed the hay aside and felt
the concrete.  The air temp was about 20, but the concrete felt tepid,
so it was probably about 50.  I stopped worrying about the concrete
freezing.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    I wouldnt worry to much.  The weather hasnt been below o' so
    you shouldnt have much problem.  
    
    As far as the C.C. goes, I thought that they stopped using it some
    time ago.  If I was told correctly, the company was adding a chemical
    called T3.  Which wasnt as corrosive as CC.
    
    JD

    There is also a special type of portland cement (I forget whether
    it's Type III or Type IV; my reference book is at home...) which
    is spec'ed for cold-weather pouring.  You might want to inquire 
    about it... (not every contractor knows about it; it's soemwhat
    of a specialty item...).
    
    Of course, adding CC to the mix might give equivalent results...
    (one thing you have to realize is that concrete is exothermic;
    it *generates* heat as it cures.  As long as the internal temperature
    of the concrete is 40F or more as it cures, you *should* be OK...)
    
    --jim
    

    Same topic, different angle...   I will be finishing half my basement
    in the near future..  Currently have a wood stove which should do the
    entire basement (28' x 52' ranch) but doesn't.  I believe the heat is
    going to the cement walls/floors.  I plan to stud/insulate along the
    exterior walls but am unsure of the floors.  I would like to paint/seal
    the floors, then lay plastic/carpet on the finished half.  
    
      **  My question is this, would sealing the floor with Thompsons stop the 
    	  heat loss ??
    
    
    Steve

    RE: .47
    
    Simple answer...no. The heat loss is not convection currents.
    
    Marc H.

    
    The carpet and pad will probably stop quite a lot of heat loss.  Our
    basement had an old carpet on it before we started finishing it.
    it got a *lot* colder down there when the carpet was ripped up.
    
    You might want to consider a brick backing and hearth area around the
    woodstove instead of insulating up to it.  The masonry will act as a
    thermal mass and store heat from the woodstove.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    This is the latest note that seems to apply to my question...
    
    I have an addition on my garage and I'd like to pour a concrete
    base the same height as the current garage floor.  Problem is,
    there is a concrete block stub of a wall between the current
    garage floor and the dirt base that will get covered with concrete
    (see [lousy] drawing).   What is the best way to get the block
    wall out so that the floor will be smooth?  I tried a sledge and
    the blocks break above and below the floor line - how can I get
    that smooth now..?
    
    
    example of project...
    
              ________________------ old garage floor ~ 5" thick (remaining).
              |        ____
              V        |  | <-- block wall
    ___________________|  |
    .;.;.;.;.;;.;.;.;..|  |_.._._._._._. <-- ground level where I 
                                             want new concrete.
    
    considerations are...  
    
    1.  buy about 4 of those abrasive wheels for my
    circular saw and cut as close to the block wall as possible - then
    sledge the entire thing down.
    
    2.  continue sledging the wall and grind the jagged edges above
    the garage floor smooth (somehow). 
    
    3.  resort to my childhood and make 'pipe' type bombs and blow
    the silly thing out of there (dangerous - but it's frustrating
    enough that the thought is crossing my mind).
    
    thanks
    Keith
    

    
>    1.  buy about 4 of those abrasive wheels for my
>    circular saw and cut as close to the block wall as possible - then
>    sledge the entire thing down.
    
	    I used those abrasive disks to cut through some concrete.
	It worked okay but the next time I used my Skil saw, I noticed
	the bearings didn't sound so good.
	    How about a hand sledge and a big cold chisel.  Or perhaps
	you can rent a big (More Power!!!) circular saw.

    
    You might want to break up that wall as much as possible.
    Even cut into the old floor somewhat.  You'd like the concrete
    to bond to the old floor so it dosnt crack at this point.
    
    If the hammer and chisel just dosnt cut it... you might want to
    rent a electric jack hammer.  The more of that wall you get out
    the better you'll be.
    
    JD

    If it were me and on a tight budget, I'd take my handy-dandy 3/8" drill
with a 1/4" masonary bit and drill a small hole every inch or two at the height
I wanted to "cut" the blocks, both sides.  Then a few taps with a sledge and
the wall will break off fairly clean at the line of holes...  Unless the
cavities in those blocks have been filled, this should provide a reasonable way
to get the wall to where it's managable... 

Al

    Only marginally related to my question, but it beats starting a new
    topic.....
    
    I need to install some mounting hardware in a granite rock. 
    Unfortunately, power is nowhere close by and I don't have a portable
    drill. (besides, would a portable drill have the power and capacity to
    drill into granite?)  I know there is a chisel-like tool which gets
    hammered into the hole.  What is this tool called?  Is it difficult to
    use?  Speed?
    
    Thanks,
    Chet

    RE: .26
    
    Both Bosch and Hilti make rechargeable hammer/drills designed for
    drilling in rock.  You might be able to find one at a tool rental shop. 
    The hand drill you're talking about is called a star drill.  I've never
    used one, but second-hand info says that it takes about 15 minutes to
    drill a 3/8" x 3" hole in granite using one.
    
    Steve
    

    RE:  .27
    
    Thanks for the quick response.  Star drill--sounds familiar and 15
    minutes isn't a lot of time to invest in this project.

    Yep, a star drill; basically a round chisel with an X-shaped point.
    Whack it with a hammer, turn it 1/8 turn, whack it with a hammer,
    turn back 1/8 turn, repeat.  Very meditative.  As the hole gets 
    deeper, you may need a piece of wire, flattened out on the end 
    and bent, to scoop out the dust periodically.

I've used a kitchen turkey basting tool to blow the dust out. Just remember
to put it back in the kitchen before the cook catches you ;'(

    Using a turkey baster to blow out rock dust?!?! Everyone knows that
    they're supposed to be used for artificial insemination! Sheesh!
    Where're the tool police when you need them? 
    
    8-) 

    
    That explains where all the granite in my yard came from. I'll
    be sure not use the baster again.
    
    :')

Hi,

I'm making some small repairs to a concrete driveway.  The patches are for
areas no more than 5 or 6 inches by 1 inch deep.  I've chiseled the areas
out to accept the new concrete patch so they look like this:

                                   
                                   Driveway
         ---------- Patch 1"deep ----------
                  /______________\
                 /  Dirt          \
                --------------------  

I bought sand Sakrete for the patch..  I understand how to use it.
My questions are:

1.  Do I need to put some kind of concrete adhesive in the hole before I
    put the Sakrete patch in?  Or, will the way I chiseled the hole,
    hold the new patch?

2.  Can I put the patch right on the dirt, or do I need to put some pebbles
    down first?  1 inch doesn't leave much room for anything but the
    concrete patch.

Thanks a lot!

Diana

    RE: .4
    
    With the taper in the patching hole, you should be OK as shown.
    I would use the concrete mix though....not the sand mix.
    
    Marc H.

    Wet the old concrete first, before you put in the patch.  

    
      The main difference between concrete mix and sand mix is the size of
    the aggregate (Particles of filler - sand vs small pebbles). 
    
      I would use mortar mix, since this has a higher concentration of
    Portland cement which is responsible for the bonding.
    
    				Kenny

    
    Your driveway will probably be about 4-5" thick, resting on a gravel
    bed or well-tamped sandy soil.  If you patch it, the patch hole needs
    to be cut down to undamaged concrete or right down to the base,
    assuming you don't find any steel reinforcement - if you do, that's a
    good place to stop cutting.
    
    If you just put an inch over dirt, when you drive over it the weight
    will compress the patch down into the dirt and gradually break up the
    patch. - 1" isn't strong enough to take the weight of a vehicle:
    
    
         ---------- Patch 4"deep ----------
                  /              \ 4" concrete
     4" concrete /                \
        ----------------------------------  
           base of sand, gravel or undisturbed soil
    
    
    Because of the joints, water can get into the edges of the patch and
    break it up in the winter freeze/thaw cycle, so you'll want to
    use concrete (which will be no problem at 4 or 5" depth) and mix it
    very thoroughly and keep it damp for 4-5 days to cure. 
    
    Colin
    

Hi,

Thanks for the responses.

Actually, the patches are at the point at which the driveway enters the
garage -- It's more like a feathered edge slopping slightly upwards as it
enters the garage. The cars ride up over the little lip into the garage.  

It's that edge that is breaking up and not the actual driveway itself. 
I've bought a long  1 " heavy metal angle bar (the one that was there
before deteriorated after about 12 years).

The concrete at the point of the feathered edge is only about an inch
thick..  Do you still think I should dig down another 3 inches then?

The fix will look like this:
      
                     |\\--\
                1"   |  \\  \                
                     |    \   \  ---------------------------
            Heavy    |  Patch     \     Driveway edge  
Inside      metal    |-------------\
garage ____ angle bar|______________\________________________
            (90 deg.)   1"



Even if I dig down another inch or so, isn't sand Sakrete mix sufficient?
That's what they told me in the hardware store....  I guess they might have
been wrong.

Thanks.

Diana

	I would make it more than 1" deep. Otherwise the patch will just end
	up breaking like the original did.

	Roy

re: .10


Okay, thanks.  I hope I can dig down through the concrete that's there.
Hopefully,  I can chip away at stuff with a chisel..  I'll get the concrete
mix too and return the sand mix.

Diana

One last question on this concrete stuff:

I'm curing the patches I made (the patches are about 4 inches wide by 2 or
inches long).  I put plastic covering over the cement patches to cure them.  
Should I just leave the plastic in place for several days, or should I lift
the plastic every day and dampen the new concrete underneath?

The books say if you use burlap to cover and cure the cement, that you
should wet the burlap daily, but they don't say anything about wetting the
cement if you use plastic as a cover.  Is that necessary?

Thanks.

Diana

    If you use plastic to cover the cement and insure that it is and stays
    snug on the cement, you do not need to wet the cement at all.
    
    				Kenny

    
    A BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG warning on concrete - it burns!
    
    As I sit here after two days off work, and both hands wrapped from
    fingers to elbows, I wish I knew Monday what I knew now.
    
    Monday we had 10 cubic yards of ready mixed delivered for our
    foundations walls. Since the truck could only go out to 16ft and we had
    a wall 21ft away, we dropped the cement in another wall, and slushed it
    around manually to the far wall. I was wearing cotten gloves and old
    sweathshirt. During the 3 hours out there in the snowstorm, I had wet
    concrete all up and down my arms.
    
    Now, 2nd degree chemical burns that are dressed daily and make me look
    like a mummy. 
    
    SO! If handling concrete, readymixed, powder, rental mixed, whatever,
    wear long rubber gloves that reach up to your elbows!
    
    Concrete has portland cement, and in cold weather, calcium, that sits
    on your skin and burns through!
    
    Simon

    A friend of mine did this too. He put shorts on and crawled through it.
    His legs where one scab which keot cracking and ozing at flex points.
    What a mess.
    Orval
    

    Was the problem the added calcium or the cement?
    
    Marc H.

It's the portland cement - it's caustic.

			Steve

    
    Not to mention that running your bare skin through cement is like
    running it through liquid sandpaper.  Many layers of skin are removed
    if you slush around in it long enough.
    
    Phil                   

    	
    It's the lime, (Calcium Oxide CaO)- that's why it's used in organic
    waste dumps to disinfect and speed up decomposition (quicklime or
    burned lime).  

I had the same problem -- thankfully on a much smaller scale -- with hydraulic
cement.  I now know to use rubber gloves.

    
    yep, rubber gloves and rubber boots are a must! And a VT220 keyboard is
    not designed to work with hands whose fingers are wrapped together,
    very difficult...
    
    Simon

Portland cement is the actual cement chemical mix that is used to form
concrete (the finished product).  You mix cement with aggregate (sand, etc.)
and water to form concrete.  The word "cement" is often misused where
"concrete" is meant.

				Steve

    
    You can make mortar or concrete with lime, Portland cement or a
    combination of both.  Portland cement is a manufactured product that
    is much finer than lime and to which other chemicals can be added to give
    certain qualities to the finished work.  Lime is not used as much now,
    except for architectural renovations.
    
    C
    

    
    It depends what you are building, but typical mix ratios for
    bagged cement are (per bag)
    
                         water (gal)    fine agg (cu ft) coarse agg (cu ft)
    
    	concrete drives:     5              2.5              3.5
    
    	walls:               5.5            3.0              4
    
    
    You could mix the sand and gravel for the aggregate about 50:50
    using about half-gal more water if the sand and gravel are dry.
    
    That's quite a lot of aggregate per bag of cement.  The effect of mixing
    additional cement into ready-mix will result in concrete that
    performs poorly in compression. 
    
    If the bags are open, the cement may have already started to go off
    (cement is hygroscopic and takes up moisture out of the air).
    Don't use it for all-weather concrete if it is lumpy.  If it's
    only a bit lumpy, run it through a sieve to use for deck footings & the
    like (low tensile, out-of-weather applications).  
    
    
    From memory, so please check with a book!
                               
    Colin
    

My garage is under the house. The (house) front foundation wall, which
runs the length of the garage (and is about 8' high), looks like an ideal
place to have a bunch of shelves that can get all that junk up off the
floor. I don't want the shelves to come all the way down to the floor. I
think I'd like the shelves to be -um- generously wide, at least 18" and
maybe 24". I envision 18 to 20 running feet of 3 shelves.

What is the recommended method of hanging shelves in a case like this? Mount
vertical 2X4 studs every 3', put shelf standards on the studs, and use
the shelf brackets that plug into the standards?

For rough shelving like this, which might have heavy items, would
construction adhesive plus homeowner (Remington) driven nails through
2X4's provide ample vertical support? (I bought a Remington nail driver,
but haven't used it yet.) Or, is the only acceptable method to drill
holes in the concrete and use expanding anchors with lag bolts through
drilled studs?
    
Art
    

>For rough shelving like this, which might have heavy items, would
>construction adhesive plus homeowner (Remington) driven nails through
>2X4's provide ample vertical support? (I bought a Remington nail driver,

    Run the 2X4s all the way down to the floor to help carry the
    weight and use your favorite method of attaching them to the wall.
    If you can run them up to the ceiling and attach them up there,
    that would also help.

    Charly

    	For the extra work and aggravation trying to attach to the wall, you 
    might be better off making some free standing shelves with a 2x4 frame and 
    plywood. I did just that in my basement and for just under $100, I built 
    two free standing units that are 8' long and have three 2' wide shelves. 
    
    	The first shelf is about 3' up so that I can slide plastic barrels
    with seasonal clothes underneath. This keeps out rodents, dust, and
    moisture. It also makes it easier to place or remove heavy items on the 
    lowest shelf.
    
    	The units are free standing but they slide underneath the 1st floor
    joists with only about 1/8" of clearance, so it can't accidently fall
    down. It can be easily taken down and moved though.
    
    	I also built them using sheetrock screws instead of nails. I could
    dismantle them if need be. It turned out to be a very well spent $100
    and only took me about 4 hours to assemble them from scratch.
    
    	One tip. Where ever you buy the plywood, get them to rip it into 2'
    wide pieces for you. It doesn't usually cost any extra, and they're all
    set-up to do it.
    
    	Ray

    Simpson makes metal framing members for tying 2 by 4's together in
    various combinations.  One of the mentioned uses is for building
    shelving.  I've seen them at Home Depot, among other places.  Looks
    like it might be an easy way of putting together some heavy duty
    shelves.

The ceiling is finished - probably to meet fire code - so the joists are
not easily accessible.

I really don't want it to come down to the floor. I was hoping for
something like this:



xxxxxxxx+---------+
        |         |
  e     |    f    |
  a     |    o    |
  r     |    u    |
  t     |    n    |-------
  h     |    d    |/
        |    a    |
        |    t    |
        |    i    |-------
  f     |    o    |/
  i     |    n    |
  l     |         |
  l     |         |-------
        |         |/
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |
        |         |                garage floor
        ==============================================================               

    If your shelf standards are attached only to 2x4s mounted on the
    wall, I would not trust them for long reliability even if they
    were glued and screwed into the wall. 

    It's been my experience that wall anchors set in concrete do not
    do well with any amount of vibration or changing loads. Over time
    they can loosen. This is why I suggested running the 2x4 down to
    the floor. This will only take up a very space at the corner of
    the wall and the floor.


xxxxxxxx+---------++
        |         ||
  e     |    f   <++
  a     |    o    ||
  r     |    u    ||
  t     |    n    ||-------
  h     |    d    ||/
        |    a    ||
        |    t   <++
        |    i    ||-------
  f     |    o    ||/
  i     |    n    ||
  l     |        <++
  l     |         ||-------
        |         ||/
        |         ||
        |         ||
        |         ||
        |         ||
        |         ||
        |        <++ <--- 2x4 resting on the floor and attached to the wall
        |         ||
        |         ||
        |         ||                garage floor
        ==============================================================

    re:33,38
    
    	If you want to keep it off the floor, the power nailer will
    probably do it. Extending 2' out from the wall would apply quite a bit
    of leverage at the attachment point I'd imagine.
    
    	Not sure if it's the drawing or not, but someone showed something
    like this -
    
    	
    			|
    			|
    			|----------
    			|/
    			|
    			|
    			|
    	
    		
    
    	When you'll probably need something closer to this -
    
    	
    			|
    			|
    			|----------
    			|     /
    			|    /
    			|   /
    			|  /
    			| /
    			|/
    	
    	Ray

I mixed three 80# bags of Quickrete Saturday, and poured it into a 12"
diameter sonotube about 30" high. I can move the sonotube, and have moved
it into my garage. Will the concrete cure faster if I remove the tube? Is
there an easy way to peel the tube off the cement?

Art

    Careful of terms here:
    The concrete will cure at the same rate, I'd expect, in either case.
    
    It will *dry out* faster if you take off the tube.
    
    If it dries out, the curing process will not progress as far before it
    essentially stops.  (Concrete actually cures "forever," but it needs
    moisture to do so.)
    
    Too-rapid drying will result in less final strength in the concrete.
    
    These days, they have "high early strength"  concrete and stuff, but
    for "standard" concrete, I think 3 days is traditionally the minimum
    time before removing the forms.  7 days is a practical limit before
    you start to get to the point of diminishing returns.  If you can 
    maintain a humid atmosphere, so much the better.
    
    If you want maximum strength, cure for 28 days in an atmosphere of
    100% humidity.  Beyond 28 days in a humid atmosphere, any possible
    gain is minimal...although the concrete will continue to get
    stronger.
    
    Whether any of this matters for your application may be debatable.

On a related, but completely different topic, does anyone know if bags
of Sakcrete(sp?) have a "shelf life"?

I have 8 bags which have been in my garage for almost 6 years now.  They have
been kept off the floor and dry (other than natural humidity) all that time.
If and when I find a need for concrete, will this stuff still be good? Or
should I just get rid of it now?

If it matters, this is in MA.

					Mark

As long as it's still friable, it's perfectly good, Mark.

I have about eight bags of Portland cement that have been stacked in my
basement for as many years. They're just fine.

-Jack

How about asphalt sealer. I did not get a chance to put it down this fall so I
am wondering if I could use it next summer or should I take it back to Home
Depot.

Dave

    
    I've put driveway sealer in the basement over the winter and used it
    the following spring -- no problem.
    
    Definitely protect it from freeezng.
    

Just for an updated cost estimate.  I got one for:

	8x18 + 16x24 Addition (1 piece)
	  w/ 4' crawlspace, "rat-slab" at the bottom, 3000 lb concrete
and     24x24 attached garage, 4000 lb concrete, re-enforced

For the cement and form work only (no digging)
	
	Walls and footings:	3260
	        "rat-slab":      640  (under the living space)
	       garage slab:	 960
			----------------
			       $4860
			

Other things I found out:
	- if I got with radiant floor heating with the pipe in the concrete,
	  with the finished slab at the finished floor height,  it would add
	  about $800-1000 to the "rat-slab" figure above.  That includes
	  5-6" of 4000 lb concrete (vs. 4" of 3000 lb), re-enforcing, 
	  laying the pipe (but not the pipe), 3" fine sand, 2" styrofoam
	  insulation, and 6 ml. plastic vapor barrior.
	
	  I also figured out that it would cost me about $700-$1000 to frame
	  a floor over the crawlspace (2x8's, 3/4" T+G, etc.)
	
	  The guy I talked to liked putting the radiant floor heat into a
	  sub-floor.  Basically you build a deck with 2x8's, 3/4" T+G, lay
	  1x5" strapping, 6" OC,  lay the tubes in a metal reflective
	  strip,  lay 1/2" plywood on that.  He liked a wood surface for 
	  walking on better than a concrete floor.   This space is going to
	  be a family room with carpeting.  Any thoughts?
	
Garry

    We built a 20'x20' (well, my husband and son) family room addition
    to our house off the living room on sonotube pilings.  The wooden
    supports are about 8-10' off the ground.  We piped in gas from the
    main system and hooked it up to a gas log Jotul fireplace which 
    we control manually.  Since the room is mostly all glass windows
    facing south, we only have to bump up the heat when we are in there
    at night during the winter.

    The 8' bumpout we did earlier to the front of the house (kitchen
    and dining room) my husband laid sheets of plywood base under the
    short wooden supports on the sonotube pilings, ran the main heating
    vents over to the "edge", put in insulation, laid the subflooring,
    and then added new hardwood flooring to match the old.  These 
    additions only made the rooms larger and they are controled by the
    main thermostat.  

    Just another method of adding to one's house keeping the costs down.

    justme....jacqui

  Hello, I know this note has been dead for a while but this seem to be
         where my question fits.
         My house has a set of precast stairs.  I was thinking of replacing 
         them with granite.  The current set up is one stair of low hight
         (3-4") up ~7" to a 4X4 landing. 

                                                   |house
                        ---------------------------|
                        |                          |
                        |                          |
              ----------|                          |
              |                                    |                            
  ground > ------------------------------------------


         Will granite be too slippery in the rain and snow?



                               Thanks

                                 Tom

    Depends if it is smooth or not.  If smooth, it will be very slippery
    when wet.  Ice and snow will be slippery all by themselves :-)/2 (after
    having slipped down a flight of about 8 granite steps) 
    
    Brian

Unless you foolishly insist on polished granite, granite steps are less slippery
than concrete and will last forever (or near enough).  Several years later
(I wrote .0) I still get compliments on how nice the steps look.

					Steve

    
    How about some cost and supplier info? 
    Also is this a diy or was a contractor hired to install the steps?
    I'd like more info on this because I have the same 2 step precast
    front step which I've hated since the day I moved into my house. 
    
    thanks in advance
    steve

    It's definitely NOT DIY - those granite slabs are HEAVY (hundreds of
    pounds - a big one can approach 1000 pounds).  I purchased the steps
    and installation from a local company - Swensen Granite Works in
    Amherst, NH.  You'd want to find a supplier local to you.  Cost for the
    steps (72" wide by 60" with two steps and a landing (about 22" high)
    was about $800, plus $35 for installation and $500 to have the old
    poured concrete steps removed and a new pad poured (the latter was
    arranged through a concrete contractor).  If you have precast steps,
    removal is easier.
    
    					Steve

Well, I'd like to temper what Steve has said.  For most folks, moving 1/4 to
1/2 ton blocks of granite is not considered DIY, but it can be done.  But my
100 year old house is heavily (no pun) landscaped with granite.  I have set
single pads of granite slabs without any equipment other than the borrowed
trailer I hauled it home on, a long heavy pry bar for levering it, and stubs
from lolly columns (concrete filled 4" steel pipe) which I use for rollers. My
rollers were gladly given to me by the lumber yard which pays by the pound to
have their trash hauled away.  I built a 3 foot high retaining wall out of
granite blocks too heavy for me to lift, but I used rollers, levers and
inclined planes.  OK, so my BS was in physics but if you understand how a
see-saw works you've pretty much got the physics nailed down.  I also reset my
5'x1'x9" granite steps with chain and a rented Kubota baby backhoe.  (Heck, I
needed the hoe for my garage foundation, the stair resetting was a freebie) 

Who was it that said, given a fulcrum and a long enough lever he could move the
world? I'll add that the Egytians moved a lot of stone without backhoes.  

So, if I were deciding if installing my own steps were DIY, I'd ask myself 
what my time was worth.  Then figure out what getting the stone is going to
cost.  I think moving it is a significant part of the expense.  Can you
trailer it yourself?  What's a bobcat or Kubota going to cost you to rent?
Are you going to be able to create a proper base that won't heave in the
frost?  Plan to prep the area and move the stone by hand?  It is doable but a
very slow process and hot tiring work.  The cost of a mistake can sometimes
be a broken slab, but more likely a crushed foot or hand.  Assess your risk
and cost and decide.  I agree with Steve, most people are better off hiring
it done.  For myself, I rather enjoy pushing such huge rock around and am
delighted when I've created something that just might be in my yard another
100 years.

    Archimedes was the guy.  
    
    I agree it might be a DIY project, depending on how mechanically 
    inclined you are.  I've moved some pretty big stone slabs with 
    rollers, levers, and plenty of assorted wood blocks.  It is definitely
    a go-slow operation though, and if you can get it done for $35 it
    sounds like one of the great bargains of the century.  At that price
    the only reason to do it yourself would be so you could say you did it.

    re: "mechanically inclined" no pun intended, I suppose.  :-)
    
    ed

    The installer who did my steps had a truck with a swing-arm power
    hoist and a sling.  It made positioning the slabs "simple", even those
    18" or so off the ground.  Sure, I suppose with enough effort and
    the right tools and devices you could do it yourself, but I suspect 
    most people would be far better off to have a pro do it. especially if
    the price is as reasonable as it was for me.
    
    					Steve

    
    Levers need too much work.  When we moved our back step - a
    36x36x8" slab of concrete - we used both the jacks from the cars
    to raise it up.  Effortless!

I'm replacing a walk-out door in my basement.  I had to remove a small section
of the slab floor because it was cracked.  This area is 1" deep and about 2 sq.
ft.  I also need to add a thin layer of concrete to level the door opening.

In the future, I have to re-set a small area of tiles in mortar, and re-point my
chimney and a stone retaining wall.

Is there one product I can buy that will do all these jobs?  I'd like to buy one
60 lb. sack of something since that's the most economical solution.

Jamie

I think you may have to by 2 or maybe even three different bags.  Mortar 
mix is used for brick work and cement mix is used for filling in your open 
concrete area.  I would not try to use 1 for both projects. 

You may also be able to use the concrete mix to level the doorway as long 
as it is not too thin.  If you are looking at a less than a 1/2 inch you 
should consider a special vinyl concrete patching compound or you can be 
sure it will crack on you on short order.

Don't worry about the price, these mixes are only $3-6 per bag.  Get the 
exact right material for the job.  Your local HD/HQ will have brouchures 
describing what to use for each job or just ask the sales guy.

     This topic was answered back in 89' but I'm looking for some current
    information.  Does anyboby know of any other places in the Northern
    Mass/rt93/southern NH area for ready mixed concrete you take home
    in a rental trailer.
    					Thanks,
    
    						jeff
    
     

    The mason that did my block work out back told me you can sometimes
    bring 50 gallon drums to Brox concrete in Hudson and they will fill
    them for you.  It's definitely an option (you save the $100 delivery
    charge and 1 yard minimum purchase) if you have access to the drums 
    and a beefy truck.
    
    It seems to be a personal thing with them, though.  If you're some
    uptight desk-job know-it-all "I want a 4 slump 4000 psi mix" 
    HOME_WORK'ing engineer from Digital on a tight schedule, I'm sure
    they won't deal with you.  If you are a dope-headed penny-smart 
    pound-foolish Digital manager who read the "So You Want to Pour a Slab?" 
    pamphlet at Sears, they would probably get a kick out of it because 
    they know you'd spend $80 on a wheel barrow, $20 on shovels, and 
    you're willing to trash your 50K Infinity just to save the $100 
    delivery charge.

I'm soliciting bids for a pool patio.  All but one contractor defaulted to a
4" slab.  One indicated 5".

Is 25% more thickness worth paying more money for?  Or will 4" do it?  If I
remember correctly, the extra inch was not 25% more money, but I see no sense
in paying for more concrete that I actually need.

Chris

>>                      <<< Note 4241.9 by NOODLE::DEMERS >>>
>>                -< Slab thickness benefit vs. additional cost >-

>>I'm soliciting bids for a pool patio.  All but one contractor defaulted to a
>>4" slab.  One indicated 5".

The extra inch will probably give you more strength against frost heaves
cracking the slab.

3" is standard for inside cellar floors
4", re-inforced is standard for garage floors

The guy that did my foundation did his own garage and he didn't want
any chance of cracking so he used 5", extra rebar, expansion joints,
and it still cracked. New England weather can be brutal on concrete
floors.

If you're near Nashua NH,  I'd suggest Henry Danis at 603-883-5339.

Garry

    It will crack anyway.  Concrete has very little strength in tension,
    and I doubt an extra inch will make much difference.  More important
    would be some reinforcing mesh.

    Help...Salt is destroying my new garage floor. Never thought to
    seal it. I guess that was a major error.
    
    Well the damage is done.  I've got little pitted areas all over
    the floor ranging from 1 to 5 inches round and about 1/4 inch deep.
    I'd like to find a way to patch these damaged areas.
    
    Has anyone had experience with this sort of concrete damage? Are there
    products available to patch the holes?
    
    -John

 That type of damage is typical of working concrete too late into the
 curing cycle, it leaves a top layer (almost like a parge coat) that is
 not fully bonded to the substrate, these areas will break off under
 load or wet/freezing cycles.  They are caused by low areas in the
 concrete floor having wetted concrete from an adjacent high area trowled
 into them; the problem is the wetted concrete is really chemically set
 and only movable because of extra water and physical force.

 My experience with trying to patch this type of damage is that the patch
 disintigrates after a short while because it is too thin and fails to
 tightly bond.

 I will listen to patch suggestions also though.


 Bruce 

    I have a concrete deck around an inground pool that needs to be broken
    up and hauled away...does anyone know of a company inthe surrounding 
    Worcester, Ma. area that breaks up and hauls away concrete?..this is
    about 310 sq ft....also any guesses on what removal of 310 sq ft of concrete
    deck might cost ?......tx.../k

    	Perhaps note 2003.11 or .12 may help ?
    
    	Ray

    Probably any mason would have the equipment to do this job.
    
    Ray

    Is there any problem with concrete being poured into a wooden form
    and left in the form for 6 weeks before the form is removed?   
    I am currently pouring a sidwalk and I have the forms completely set up.  
    I have the forms divided up into six 4x6 sections and I am pouring one 
    section a week with a expansion joint in between each section, it will 
    be over a month before the sidwalk will be complete and I remove the 
    forms.  I know that concrete does not adhere to wood very well but are 
    these forms going to be hard to take off after 4 to 6 weeks.  Also does 
    anyone know what I could use for a form (other then plywood) that that 
    bends to make a curve.  I need some thing that will make a 8' curve 3" 
    deep.  I hate to buy a full sheet of plywood when I only need 8'x3" of 
    full 8'x4' sheet
    
    Thanks 
    Gerry

    	I'd think that a piece of strapping (1x4) would bend 3" in an 8' 
    span. As far as leaving it there, you may be able to use plastic wrap
    or something on the edges. That way, it wouldn't stick, and you could 
    just rip or cut the plastic wrap off after you remove the form.
    
    	Ray
    

    I've used redwood bender board to do curves before.  You just have to
    use more stakes.  As far a leaving the forms on, some people say that you 
    should leave the forms on at least a week.  It keeps the concret from 
    curing to fast and makes it stronger.  I once left a form on for 3 months 
    (got busy with something else and forgot about them) and they came off easy.
    
    
    Gary

    
    
    You can also use Abatibi Board. Its the masonite siding used on houses.
    Bends real easy.

        I'd like to pour a concrete patio around my pool this spring,
        and I have a few questions. If anyone has done this, or seen
        it done by a pro, maybe you can answer some questions for me.
        There's a diagram at the bottom.


        1- I'm going to need about 15 yds of concrete, which as I
           understand is two loads. (a concrete truck holds ~10 yds).
           That being the case, should I pour every other pad on one
           day, and finish on another, or pour the whole thing in one
           day.

        2- How large can a pad be? Is a 10' x 10' pad too large?

        3- Should I use rebar, or is a wire mesh or wire fence OK
           for reinforcement?

        4- Any positive or negative feelings on the plastic strips
           that are used for expansion joints? This brings me back
           to the first question...do I have to pour every other
	   pad to use the plastic strips?

        5- My plan is to use 2x6 lumber to build the forms. I plan
           to put 1.5 inches of pea stone, and 4 inches of concrete.
           Does that sound about right? The material all around the
           pool is all gravel right now (as is my entire lot).

        +------------------------------------+
        |               |                    |
        |              10'                   |
        |               |                    |
        |               |                    |
        |     +---------------------+        |
        |     |                     |        |
        |     |                     |        |
        |- 5'-|    18x36    POOL    |<-10'-->|
        |     |                     |        |
        |     |                     |        |
        |     +---------------------+        |
        |               |                    |
	|               5'                   |
        +------------------------------------+


        Thanks,
        Ken Gagnon

        1- I'm going to need about 15 yds of concrete, which as I
           understand is two loads. (a concrete truck holds ~10 yds).
           That being the case, should I pour every other pad on one
           day, and finish on another, or pour the whole thing in one
           day.

    I think the overriding consideration may be that dealing with concrete
    is a hell of a lot of hard work.  Pushing 15 yards of concrete around
    is not something I'd look forward to doing.  Persohnally, I'd pay
    somebody to do this.  Getting that much concrete leveled out and
    finished smoothly is a major undertaking.
    
        2- How large can a pad be? Is a 10' x 10' pad too large?
    
    Assuming the idea is to reduce/eliminate cracking, I think you'd 
    do better with more like 5x5.  That's just an intuitive guess though.

        3- Should I use rebar, or is a wire mesh or wire fence OK
           for reinforcement?
    
    There is special heavy-weight wire reinforcing mesh for concrete.
    That's probably what you want.  You probably could use heavy-gauge
    wire stock fencing (about 4"-6" squares) as a substitute.

        4- Any positive or negative feelings on the plastic strips
           that are used for expansion joints? This brings me back
           to the first question...do I have to pour every other
	   pad to use the plastic strips?

    That would probably be easiest...but I really don't know.
    
        5- My plan is to use 2x6 lumber to build the forms. I plan
           to put 1.5 inches of pea stone, and 4 inches of concrete.
           Does that sound about right? The material all around the
           pool is all gravel right now (as is my entire lot).

    Sounds about right to me.  Be *sure* you brace the forms very,
    very securely.
    
    Also...be prepared to cover the concrete with plastic tarps or
    similar to keep it hydrated (i.e. don't let it dry out before
    it cures).  You should try to keep it moist about 5 days.

    i had some pad added around my pool a couple years ago.
        
    my observations were,
        yes, rebar of some type. wire fence, plastic fence i here works good,
        but it needs to be lifted off the stone a bit when 
        the concrete is dumped...
    
        pad size, i'd suggest running a  joint from the pool out
        (to allow for dranage) every 4/5 feet or so.. when i had mine done
        i was worried about the joints between the new concrete, 
        thinking it "needed" the hard plastic strip" but the guy
        said its just for looks, and just put a groove every 4/5 feet
        in it in case it wants to crack... btw , the hard strips are
        installed "over" the groove while the concrete is wet.
    
        now between the pool copeing and the new concrete, YES i'd have a
        professional pool expansion joint installed (if this is gunnite).
        this is to keep a dry buffer area around the pool liner/wall to 
        keep it from freezing and doing damage to the walls in winter..
    
        i had a guy from Lancaster (i think) do the work. i can look
        it up if you wish.
        
        2x6 sounds fine.
    
        good luck,
    		
        Jim

    
    >    i had a guy from Lancaster (i think) do the work. i can look
    >    it up if you wish.
    
    Possibly Gary Ford?  I had him do some work for me once.  He's not
    cheap, but he does a really nice job and is thorougly reliable.  And
    fast.  A friend had some work done by him once and described it
    something like this:
    "I said I'd help them, but after a couple of hours I had to find
    an excuse to go upstairs and lie down.  They kept a 55-gallon barrel
    full of water with a hose running into it so they could scoop out
    5-gallon buckets of water and not have to wait for the hose to fill
    them up.  I think they worked even faster after I got out of their
    way."

    >not  cheap, but he does a really nice job and is thorougly reliable.
    
    well that's kinda the way i would like to have concrete work done.
    
    i'm the kind that will try to save a buck ANYWHERE i can around my
    home, but concrete work is one of those things, where if you screw up
    your left with,,, either a bigger/more expensive job to fix it,
    or willing to suffer with what you got. or like you said,
    you got out of these guys way cuz they were flying, so i ask you,
    how long is it going to take you, and whats you time worth ??
    
    good luck
    

    I had a pool deck poured by a contractor. It is not something I think I
    would tackle. These guys busted their a__. There was a crew of about 8.
    Two guys hauling wheelbarrows (the huge deep ones), from the cement
    truck to various parts of the pool dec, and the others spreading, 
    screeding, and working the cement before it started to set. It looked
    like an ant colony. Very organized, each had his job to do, and each 
    worked at it relentlessly.  
    
    The plastic separators were put in while the cement was wet. There were
    no separate pads to begin with. The area was filled, screed, then the
    plastic gutters were slid into the cement while it was still wet. 
    Heavy wire mesh was used.  
    
    The forms they used were more like 1x4 pine. The forms were set up,
    crushed bank (i think) and gravel brought in and then compacted down
    with one of those vibrating machines on a skid. The use of 1x4 allowed 
    for a more free flowing form for the deck. The 1x4 were bent around
    the corners. There are no square corners. I think it looks better.
    The forms were bent around the corners. 
    
    One thing they did that I liked was, after the cement had started to
    set, they dragged a street broom on the cement, from the pool to the
    edge of the deck. Gives the deck a sunburst sort of finish. 
    
    It wasn't cheap but I can't imagine tackling this without a crew to
    help. You are working against the clock. So, you need everything done
    at the same time. Also, I believe the cement truck charges by the hour. 
    So, you can't have the truck/driver waiting without paying for it.  

    	re:-1
    
    	Was the pad in an area that they couldn't get the truck to ? The
    few times I've seen large amounts of concrete poured, a chute was used
    to pour and guide it directly from the truck to forms. Seems as though
    it would be much more difficult (labor intensive) to transport it all 
    using wheelbarrows.
    
    	Was the wire mesh pressed down into the wet cement, or was it
    somehow staked in place prior to pouring. I have a fairly small area
    to do (6x8 porch) and what I was considering was just using bags of
    pre-mixed cement (just add water) and mixing the cement in place.
    Of course the wire mesh would have to be pressed down into the cement
    to do this. Any thoughts ?
    
    	Ray

    
>    	Was the pad in an area that they couldn't get the truck to ? The
>    few times I've seen large amounts of concrete poured, a chute was used
>    to pour and guide it directly from the truck to forms. Seems as though
>    it would be much more difficult (labor intensive) to transport it all 
>    using wheelbarrows.

	Distance and elevations can make a big difference here.  
Most trucks (and contractors) will have chute extensions, but the
longer you want to flow the concrete down a slight slope, the more
water you've got to add, and that can weaken it, and make it flow
more once in place, which isn't always good. 
	For extreme problems with access, concrete pumps can be used,
and the stuff delivered through a hose.
    
>    	Was the wire mesh pressed down into the wet cement, or was it
>    somehow staked in place prior to pouring. I have a fairly small area
>    to do (6x8 porch) and what I was considering was just using bags of
>    pre-mixed cement (just add water) and mixing the cement in place.
>    Of course the wire mesh would have to be pressed down into the cement
>    to do this. Any thoughts ?

	First, calculate carefully how much volume you need, and how
much you get per bag - you might be surprised at how many bags you'll
need.  6x8' by say 4" thick is 16 cubic feet - I think you get less than
a cubic foot per bag.  So, that's a LOT of mixing.
	If you do want to mix your own, there's a plastic barrel gadget
available these days - pour in the mix, add the right amount of water, 
close it, and then roll it around on the ground - the internal baffles
mix it up properly for you.  Open and pour, repeat as needed.
	There's always the flat plastic mortar trays, but they're hard
to dump, they work better with mortar you scoop out.  And there's 
always the traditional big wheelbarrow - mix (by hoe), transport, and
dump all in one container.

	About the wire - it's got to be in the center of the slab or
it's useless.  If you've got any stone in your concrete mix (and you
should) you'll find it difficult to push the wire down.  With the 
wire pre-laid, the difficulty is to keep it from being pushed down
by the concrete.    

    	re:note .452  
    
   > 	Was the pad in an area that they couldn't get the truck to ? The
    >few times I've seen large amounts of concrete poured, a chute was used
    >to pour and guide it directly from the truck to forms. Seems as though
    >it would be much more difficult (labor intensive) to transport it all 
    >using wheelbarrows.
    
    Most of the cement deck was too far away from the truck to pour
    directly from the truck. It was very labor intensive. 
    
    
    >	Was the wire mesh pressed down into the wet cement, or was it
    >somehow staked in place prior to pouring. I have a fairly small area
    >to do (6x8 porch) and what I was considering was just using bags of
    >pre-mixed cement (just add water) and mixing the cement in place.
    >Of course the wire mesh would have to be pressed down into the cement
    >to do this. Any thoughts ?
    
    The wire mesh was laid down before the cement was poured. The guys
    with the wheelbarrows walked on this stuff constantly. It actually
    gave them a pretty good surface to push all that weight on. I seem
    to remember the guys sort of lifting the wire mesh a little after
    a load of cement was dropped. 
  	  Another interesting tidbit. I told the contractor that I did not
    want the cement truck on my driveway because since those trucks
    weigh so much, I did not want my driveway dented or damaged. So, 
    they drove across my lawn. That's ok since my lawn was already 
    destroyed due to the pool installation. When the pool deck was
    basically done, there were a couple of walks on the far end of 
    the deck that need cement. Since there was no access from where
    they were (now that the deck was done), they pulled cement truck
    out onto the street and they wheelbarrowed it in from there. Up my
    driveway around the other side of the house. 
    
    
     
  

    
    If you look close, you'll notice that a mortar hoe (or cement mixing
    hoe) is larger than a garden hoe, and has wholes in it to aid the
    mixing process.
    
    It also has a little hook on the back to lift the wire mesh into or at
    least toward the middle of the pad.

holes, not wholes

nnttm,
Pete

    
    Just having done another small pad by hand... 
    
    For the ~80sqft 3" thick pad I just poured it took about
    45 bags of premix (not including the vermiculite added,
    nor the 5 bags of quick set I used as a slight kicker --
    instead of using calcuim). 
    
    The way I've always done small jobs is to make the first 
    batches extra stiff and when I've got about 1/2 the thickness
    of the pad done, then add the wire.  Then finish the pour 
    with normal slump mixtures.  In yesterday's pad I used
    two layers of 14ga 2"x4" wire with 50% overlap.  Total 
    job time took about 2 hours.  I had a small electric 
    mixer that could handle mixing two bags at a time.
    
    On larger jobs I've normally seen wire chairs used to hold
    the wire up into the center of the pad.  6x6 mesh easily
    passes all aggregate in the mix.  Pulling the wire in into
    the pad works, I guess, but if you've ever tried to pull
    the wire up in anything resembling normal density concrete
    it ain't easy and only pulls up a small surrounding section.
    So I'm skeptical of that methodology.

	With regard to heavy-concrete-trucks-damaging-driveways,
there are different types of trucks, and they have different numbers
of wheels.  I recall my contractor telling me he couldn't get the
type of truck he wanted to protect the driveway so he had 2 batches
delivered instead of one large one.
	Just another benefit of a good concrete contractor, I guess.
Much of the ordering/delivery/cleanup depends on good relations with
the truck drivers, and it helps if you have a contractor who knows
'em all.  I imagine truck drivers don't like dealing with rookie
do-it-yourselfers, as I believe they're held responsible for any
accidents like concrete hardening in the mixer.  If things are running
late ('please wait while I run another tiny barrow load across the yard...')
you might find the remainder of the load just dumped on your driveway.
	Even in less drastic cases, you must plan for where the extra
and washup concrete goes.  The truck driver WILL wash off all his chutes
and stuff - it doesn't go back in the truck, that's for sure.
Be sure to plan for that - it can be a considerable amount.

    I agree. I was told that 'You order x yards of cement, they deliver
    x yards of cement.' When they leave, the truck is empty and cleaned.
    
    On the Heavy Truck- The cement truck with the double rear axle, is so
    wide that I believed the rear wheels would ride on the edge of the 
    driveway. (near where the driveway meets the street)  So, I told them
    not bring the truck on the driveway. Didn't want to take the chance
    of any damage.