Conference 7.286::home_work

    Seems like Fine Woodworking/Homebuilding has done an article recently
    on this stuff. Maybe Popular Mech......anyway, will look it up and
    note the location here and pass you a photocopy when I find it.
    Have you considered new doors/hardware? That will really dress up
    old cabinets because they can have a whole new look without the
    cost of the case itself.
    
    Also, when the time comes, don't be afraid to put in new ones yourself.
    I did my whole kitchen (15 cabs) and it was fun although a bit time
    consuming.  Check your library, there are good books on installing
    new cabs, etc. also.

    OK; now that I have torn the home library apart, the articles are:
    
    Resurface you kitchen cab for a new look - Jan 85 Popular Mechanics
    
    Applying plastic laminates - Wood Magazine (Bet. Homes & Gar) April
    86
    
    These two cover redoing you kitchen cabinets with laminate and the
    other is a general article about how to handle laminate and cut
    it, tips of the trade sort of thing. Good luck.

    Greetings
    
       >cost/waste....the price is dependant on texture,color,and size
                      you can buy 4x8 or 5x10's   Price was about a
                      dollar per sq foot in solid light colors in the
                      5x10 per 500sq ft quanities. Waste is minimised(sp?)
                      if you layout your needs in a graduated sketch,
                      allow 1 inch each side on layout.
       >remove old varnish....absolutely, higher coefficient of adhesion..
                      (sticks better) use water based glue slower but
                      not toxic, not volatile like the alcohol based.
       >insides... Buy laminate backing material comes in 4x10
       >solid colors..the higher the incidence of seeing blemishes at
                      the manufacturing site the more expenses.
       >source...Ive used Frederick Shohet in Manchester,NH I believe
                 they have a store in Lowell ???
       My opinion===> stay away from Melamite brand...too brittle
                      Formica is best but Wilsonaught brand gave me
                      no problems.
       If you need help call the canuck be happy to help
    
    merci
    canuck.."cut twice still too short"
    

    Re .2
    
    	 Thanks, Vic. I have the articles in hand and they look really good.
    	If anyone else would like copies, please send me mail.
                    
    Re .3
    	
    	 Thanks for the tips. Checked but no listing for Frederick Shohet
    	in the Lowell book, but I'll check around.
    
    
    	- mike g.
    

    The continuing sage of an old-house owner:
    
    I am stripping away what seems to be one hundred layers of paint
    from the solid oak wainscotting and doors in my kitchen.  Its a
    huge task, is very time consuming, but seems to be going relatively
    well.  I use a heat 
    gun to take off the first 50 layers, and then use a chemical stripper
    to finish up and for the cracks and crevices.  
    
    I have a problem with the curves and angles on the moldings surrounding
    the doors, and on the wainscotting panels.  Does
    anyone know of stripping tools (and where to get them) that are shaped 
    appropriately for
    curved surfaces?  I have found sanding blocks shaped for these complex
    curves, but have had no luck with stripping tools.  I need both
    concave and convex angles of varying
    degrees.  The stripping tools I have found all have flat surfaces,
    and these gouge the wood regardless of how careful I am.
    
    Incidently, there's big bucks to be made in removing paint and stripping
    woodwork!  I was quoted an estimate of $7,000 to FINISH my kitchen,
    and that was after I had removed the paint from over half the
    wainscotting and four of the five doors!             
    

Maybe you could try a heat gun.  [The just of your note
implies that you are using some kind of heater which makes
mechanical contact to transfer the heat. -- am I right?]
It's kinda like a super hairdrier.  Typically they have
about 2400 watts and don't pass much air, so the heat stays
in one place in stead of blowing away.  Then you could use a
flexible nylon (like plastic cookware spatulas) widgit to
scrape the paint outta the nooks.

    Try making your own scrapers by using sheet steel (about .030" thick).
     The steel is easy to shape with a file and will take enough of
    an edge to make a good scraper.
    
    bb

    I just received a set of scrapers from Garret Wade.  A bit
    pricey ($25 to $35 or so, I can't remember) for a set of about
    a half dozen assorted shapes.  For a more detailed description,
    and the order number &c. send me mail.
    
    						OMEGA::REILLY
    						matt
    

    black and decker sell a set of of 3 scrapers, 1 has a concave side,
    1 looks like a putty knife and 1 is a triangle. I think the concave
    on has a convex side also. The set sells for $8-10. I have a order
    form at home and will get the info for you.
    
    Spag's also sells a scraper that comes with 2 blades on is the shape
    of a tear drop and the other is a triangle. I used the tear drop
    one to scrap paint off the columns on my porch. I works great.
    
    You could use an old spoon for some convex areas. I got this idea
    from a friend in the construction buisness.
    
    norb
    

    Here is the info on ordering the black and decker '3 piece scraper
    set.
    
    catalog no. - 97-500
    price - $7.49
    (ID, ME, VD, ND,SD,VT, WY add local sales tax)
    Shipping/handling - up to $9.99 add $1
    		      - over $10.00 add $1.75
    
    Send to:
       Black & Decker
       P.O. Box 171, 
       Hampstead, MD 21074
    
    Make checks payable to: Black & Decker (U.S.) Inc.
    
    They will also except VISA and Mastercard.
    
    If anyone wants a copy of the order form send me you address and
    i'll get it out to you.
    
    norb
    

    Check the local phone book.  There is a Black and Decker Supplier
    in Boston.  They ship U.P.S. COD.  Also in the Nashua area Hammer
    sells the scraper kits.
    
    

    If you're stripping paint off oak colonial casing, make sure
    you don't spend more time on it than it's worth.  You can
    replace it with new wood which will look better than wood\
    that's had 50 coats of paint scraped off it.  You can 
    also buy 6 panel oak doors but that might cost more than
    your labor is worth to strip them.  But I'd replace the
    oak molding and casing with new oak before I'd strip them.
                                        

    I have knotty pine cabinets that are in pretty bad shape. Corners
    rounded off and gouges in the doors. The wife wants to fill in the
    gaps and then paint them. I am leery. Any experiences with painting
    cabinets and/or any pitfalls? I am also leery of its' cost
    effectiveness as far as resale of the house is concerned.
    Any help????
    

    I have a house that is ~100 yrs old and have been remodeling a room at
    a time for about 5 years.
    
    The room I am working on now is my middle bedroom.  Sometime back in, I
    estimate, the late 1940's, the then owners of this house called upon
    the panelling gods to come to them and cover EVERYTHING in the bedrooms
    with panelling.
    
    Well, I'm removeing all of this worn out panelling and drywalling the
    whole upstairs.  
    
    Yesterday, I was removing the panelling from a half-wall that lines one
    side of my stairwell from the downstairs and found that they had
    covered a beautiful railing, complete with carved end post.  
    
    So far, all of the trim that I have removed and taken to a local "dip
    and strip" place has been oak, and has looked great after restaining
    and finishing.  I figure that this railing, plus the end post and
    ballusters are oak also.
    
    MY DILEMMA:  Stripping wood and me are two things that don't mix.  I
    would like to take the railing and ballusters and end post out and take
    them to the dip and strip place, also.  The problem is, I have no idea
    how to go about removing this whole thing and doing it so it still will
    be usable when I'm done, instead of cracked, split, broken, anhilated,
    etc.
    
    One end of the railing is anchored to a board that is attached to the
    wall, while the other end is attached to the end post.  There is a
    board attached to the floor and the ballusters are attached to that on
    the bottom and the railing on the top.
                                                                   |
                 ______                                          __|
                 |end |                                          ||
                 |p   |------------------------------------------||
                 | o  |----------railing-------------------------||
                 |  s |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   ||  Wall
                 |   t|  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   ||
                 |    |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   ||
                 |    |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   ||
                 |    |__________________________________________||
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I've been told that removeing this thing is no easy task.  Does anybody
    have any suggestions as to how to go about getting this railing and all
    related wood off the wall and not doing much damage to it in the
    process????
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Check with the place that has stripped your other wood and see if there
    is anyone who does on site stripping (you know what I mean).  Most end
    posts seem to be anchored to a major timber in the house under the
    floor.  If you can't get someone to come to strip the wood in place you
    may consider calling a "Finish Carpenter" and having him remove and
    re-install the whole thing.  I am sure the cost of replacing beautiful
    wood like that would be far greater than what you spend on a
    professional.  What a great find. 
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul 
    

I removed the stair railing from my circa 1890 Victorian and was surprised to
find that nothing was bolted together in any clever or hidden fashion.  It was
all done with finish nails.  I used several flat bars and some rubber from a
truck inner tube so I wouldn't mar the wood and I gently pried it all apart.
It all came apart and nothing split.  Look for the telltale putty holes where
the pieces meet and see if you can tell from the size holes they cover and how
far from the ends they are whether they were nailed.  I would start with the end
against the wall as that would be the easiest to pry from the wall without 
marring finished surfaces.  I have stripped in place and concur with your 
not caring for the job, but with proper ventilation, respirator and gloves it
can be done safely.

-Bob

    Thanks for the replies.
    
    Coincidentally, here in Pittsburgh, there is a show that started today
    that deals with remodelling and decorating.
    
    I talked with quite a few people there and most said that taking it
    apart would probably create more damage than trying to strip it in
    place.
    
    I then got to a booth where the guy was selling wood stripper, but not
    the kind that burns your skin if you should get it on you.  It seemed
    to strip the paint off of the pieces of wood he had there for examples
    pretty easily.  I was skeptical, though, of the job that it would do on
    the wood in my house which has somewhere near 300,000 coats of paint on
    it (8^)*.
    
    i went home and got a small piece of old baseboard and wnet back to the
    show.  The guy had some stripper in a spray bottle and sprayed it on
    the wood.  Within a minute or so, the paint bubbled, and in 5 minutes,
    with little or no elbow grease, we were down to bare wood.  In 20
    minutes, we had the whole piece clean.  
    
    he also had some devices to detect the presence of lead paint.  When he
    broke the thing open and put it on the wood(partially stripped at this
    point), the stuff turned bright red, signifying the presence of lead
    paint.  Stripping, in place, of the railing commences tomorrow.
    
    I'll enter in here how it went and give the name of the stripper and
    1-800 # if the stuff works as well as stated.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Figured to finally get in here and give an update.
    
    Well,
    
    I TRIED to strip this railing in place, but the paint on this thing was
    tougher than the stripper I used.  After a day or so, I gave up
    stripping it and walked away from the railing and didn't look at it for
    a while, cause if I did, I would have broke out the 15# sledge and
    started slamming it.
    
    Well, 2 weeks ago, after deep thoughts on the railing, AND some nagging
    by my wife to get the darned thing done, I decided to REMOVE the thing
    come hell or high water, and if it got mangled in the process, so be
    it.
    
    The cost of REPLACING it, BTW, was $725, wood only.
    
    Well, I took a hammer, block of wood and some time, started tapping it
    here and there and trying to seperate it, and , Lo and Behold, the
    thing was only held together with about 400,000 finishing nails.   I
    slowly took the railing completely apart, numbering the spindles as I
    went, and only had to tear out about 2-1/2 feet of flooring(it wasn't
    in that good in the first place) to get the newel post out.  
    
    I just got the wood back from the "dip and strip" place today, and it
    looks great.  Now I have to go about filling in the tons of nail holes,
    sanding staining and urethaning, then the reassambly.
    
    JaKe
    

    Can you share a ballpark figure on the cost of the dip and strip? I'll
    be removing tons of woodwork (intricate) to be refinished, and plan to
    investigate the dip and strip places.  
    Sarah

    
    >>Can you share a ballpark figure on the cost of the dip and strip? I'll
    >>be removing tons of woodwork (intricate) to be refinished, and plan to
    >>investigate the dip and strip places.  
    >>Sarah
    
    Approximate charges are as follows
    
    	Woodwork around floor and doors:   	$2/foot
    	34" spindles				$1 each
    	Top railing and bottom railing		$2/foot
    	Newel post				$15
    	Door Rosettes				$0.50/each
    
    All told, the job cost $190 for all of the old woodwork in the room,
    AND the railing/spindles/newel post.
    
    The cost to REPLACE everything was between 4 & 5 times that amount.
    
    JaKe
    

    This is as good a place to ask, I have a closet on our 2nd floor
    hallway that I want to take out and replace with a railing. This
    is the way it was before, and I want it to match the railing and
    posts(wrong word) that come up the stairs. I believe the rail is
    cherry. Can I take one of the posts somewhere and have them dup-
    licated, probably about 20-30. I live in the boston area.
    
    Thanks, Saul

    1111.61(KITCHEN) or WOOD_FINISHES didn't have anything that applied to
    re-finishing wood chopping blocks(the inlaid type in the counter top).  
    
    Does anyone know the procedure in doing this?
    
    ie/ sand, steel-wool, certain type of finishing oil that won't go
    bad.... etc
    
    
    Thank you
    
    	-John

    John -
    I have heard that Walnut oil is best for finishing wooden utensils
    because it does not go rancid or develop an off flavor.  I bought
    some and use it from time to time on our chopping bowl and cutting
    board. Walnut oil may not be available in your supermarket, but can
    be found at fancier food stores and maybe health food stores (let
    your fingers do the walking..). I bought mine in Sudbury, Mass. at
    DUCK SOUP on rte 20.
    	Dick
    

I'm suprised that Walnut oil doesn't go rancid, since walnuts do get rancid 
rather quickly if not refrigerated (shelled walnuts that is).

I've always used mineral oil.  That's the recommended treatment for butcher 
block counters and cutting boards that I've always heard of.  It's inorganic,
and non-toxic.  In fact, the body does not metabolize it, just passes it thru.

If your board has scratches or an odor to the surface, bring it to a lumber 
place and have them plane it for you.  Then rub it down with a generous amount 
of pure mineral oil on a paper towel.  Let it soak in over night, and repeat 
the process one or two more times.

Mineral oil is real inexpensive, and available at most drug stores, and often 
in the "drug store aisle" of larger supermarkets.  By the way, mineral oil is 
what's used in baby oil, but it has no fragrance added.

More specifically, mineral oil is found with the laxatives in your local
drug store.

    Thanks for your inputs....  I'll be calling a lumber yard to see
    what the story is w/ the planing then off to the laxitives! ;-)
    
    regards,
    	-John

    re: .5 & .6, costs for dip/strip:

    I had some 1x6 door casing dip/stripped for $1/foot.
    It was just plain, flat, 1x6.

    I remeber reading something about painting cabinets with 
    a paint call liquid plastic.. has anyone ever used this?
    its supposed to be able to use on cabinets and ccounter tops?
    
    I have looked all over and havent found anything.
    
    
    	wendy o'
    
    

"Liquid Plastic" is just a brand name for polyurethane.

			Steve

    Bruning paint company makes a paint product which is supposed
    to adhere well to Formica and other brands of laminates.  I'm
    not sure what the product is called, but if you can find a
    dealer of Bruning paints they might be able to tell you.

    
    PROJECT:   TO "PICKLE" OLD KITCHEN CABINETS WITH A WHITE GLAZE
               TO BRIGHTEN THEIR APPEARANCE
    
    PROBLEM:   CABINETS HAVE A CLEAR FINISH OVER THEM, THE WOOD IS A 
               NATURAL KNOTTY PINE
    
    STRATEGY:  AS I AM SELLING THE HOUSE, I'D PREFER NOT TO TOTALLY STRIP
               THE CLEAR FINISH OFF THE NATURAL PINE, BUT WOULD RATHER ADD
               A PIGMENTED GLAZE  
    
    I am interested in using a "GLAZING" liquid plus a white pigment, like the
    new Minwax "Pastel" stain product line (the color that I'm interested
    in is "Winter White"). Originally I was going to strip the clear finish
    off the cabinets, now I want to simply, and speed the process as I am
    selling the house.
    
    I'd like ideas, hints, and tips if this is feasible.

    Why don't you just rub them down with denatured alcohol to clean
    them and let the new owners 'whiten' them... if they want. A lot
    of people want natural wood and would be put off by a glaze.

    Good advice! I will try it. Thank You  

    Hello,
    
    	I have searched both this notes file and the CONSUMER notes file
    for information on SEARS cabinet refacing. The only notes I found are
    very outdated.
    
    	I am considering going with the refacing option and would like to
    know if anyone has experienced the SEARS option. SEARS uses AVERY
    (whoever that is) as a subcontractor. My cabinets are solid wood and
    are better that the average, do it yourself cabinets available at most 
    consumer outlets.
    
    	The quote from SEARS is $6395.00 (includes new counter tops). I
    have no experience in this area to know if this quote is out of line or
    not. I have made dozens of calls to other contractors but they all want
    to tear the kitchen down to the studs and re-do it for much more $$$.
    
    	Does anyone have any experience with SEARS and or Refacing?
    
    			Thanks In Advance, dave

Unless you have a huge kitchen, that seems like a lot of money.
Have you looked in the yellow pages under Kitchen Cabinets - Refacing?

Refacing good wood cabinets with plastic strikes me as 
a crime.  Have you looked at having someone strip and
refinish them? I doubt it would be more expensive.

The refacing mateirals chip - and then you have to redo
the whole thing. Wood can be refinished an inifinite 
number of times.
Margaret.

    I saw the work done by Sears for the same BIG BUCKS you are talking.
    For this amount, one could DIY a whole kitchen remodel.  Sheesh...
    I didn't think much of the work my friends had done.  I opened one
    of the doors and saw the rotted bottom of their cabinet!  Please,
    please look around and put more effort into finding a better solution.
    
    My spouse re-did, and I mean re-did, our whole kitchen from the flooring
    on up himself.  IF you are near LAMSON LUMBER in Hudson, MA, go check
    there.  

    justme....jacqui

    

Our neighbors just had Sears do theirs.  They had older built-in cabinets 
(not modular) and they decided it was best to resurface and not gut the 
place.  I don't know how much they spent but they are happy.  It seemed 
like a fine job to me but personnaly I'd never do it.  For the price you 
got (BTW, how many linear are you talking about) you can DYI for much, much 
less OR have all new doors made and the face/frames redone.  Call some 
cabinate makers, contractors...at least 5-6 to get other thoughts.
 

    
    
    It's hard to say what a fair price would be without exact sizes but...
    I'd bet the Sear's price is high. A friend with a fairly small kitchen
    got a price of about $8K from them for cabinet refacing, and a countertop
    with new sink/faucet. I replaced all my cabinets for quite a bit less ( but
    my time = free labor) and my kitchen is 12X14 (not huge, but not small
    either). Sears is a last choice in my book. And remember, with new cabinets
    you can get  those things you always wanted (Super Lazy Susan, etc.) Do
    yourself a favor and have a couple decent (Home_work recommended!!!!)
    contractors stop by and give you suggestions/bids.
    
    Just My Opinion,
    Charlie
    

    Wow! I'm paying about the same price for completely new cabinets,
    installed. I'm covering three sides of an 8X11' space with cabinets,
    but there are appliances in there taking up some of the space. For
    $6200 I'm getting cherry cabinets (admittedly, the least expensive
    cherry I found), taller than usual upper cabinets, countertops, and all
    the cherry trim like kickplates and splash-whatevers and molding. And
    this is the installedpriced. Unless you have a huge kitchen or you chose
    beautiful, top-of-the-line cabinet doors, it sounds like the bid was
    high.

    Hello Again,
    
    	Thanks for the prompt replies. Now maybe my wife will believe me! I
    have made many, many calls and have yet to find a contractor who says
    they can re-do the kitchen for less than $10,000! Perhaps they start
    high and work their way down, I dunno. I will make some more calls.
    
    	As far as the comment about covering the wood with plastic, I
    agree! But it's the wife who gets what she wants and she wants to
    "brighten up" the kitchen. So she has picked an off-white laminate with
    oak pull handles, the sample looks nice :-)
    
    	Well I did get a few recommendations for contractors to call so let
    the games begin!
    
    					Thanks Again, dave

    In addition to calling contractors directly, you might want to go to a
    cabinet store. I think all of them will quote you prices with and
    without installation, since they usually have their own contractors
    they are willing to use for installation. Or check out what Eagle/Home
    Base/Home Deopt or whatever kind of huge hardware store you have in
    your area would charge. 

    Look at the economics and business model of buying from 
    Sears. You pay Sears. Sears takes's it's margin. Sears pays local
    contractor. Contractor takes margin. 
    
    Why pay Sears? What value has Sears added to the deal?
    
    Find a contractor, cabinet maker, finish carpenter and deal direct.

FWIW, the value that Sears adds is the ability to put it on your credit card.

    	After having just finished a custom made island, I was amazed at
    how easy it is to work with laminate. A router and bits of a size
    sufficient for laminate work will only run you ~$100.
    
    	I did an island consisting of 7' of base cabinet that has a drawer
    at the top and doors at the bottom. It has a full 1.5" thick top with 
    almond laminate and half-round oak trim. It includes matching doors
    with oak pulls. The whole island cost just under $500. The top is 7' 
    x 3.5' and has an 16" for overhang on one side to sit at.
    
    	Enough laminate to redo a good sized kitchen will probably run you
    about $100 or so. Most of the money will be spent on the doors and 
    the hardware, but even doing a good sized kitchen will probably be
    under $1000 for the total job. The rest is labor and profit.
    
    	Ray

    When I re-did my kitchen a couple of years ago I saved all the 
    cabinets and relaid them out and then refaced them with maple
    and birch plywood for less than a thousand. To get that laminate
    type surface I used Benjamin Moore "oil" based primer and paint.
    It takes alot longer for the paint portion than latex, but 
    grease and dirt wipe off with a sponge or fantastic

To brighten up our kitchen without ripping out everything, we've decided to 
paint our cabinates (stained plywood) and replace the countertop.  We plan 
to use XMI oil-based primer and Benjamin Moore Semi-Gloss latex (or a 
special acrylic overcoat paint whose name escapes me...$65 a can!)

Unfortunately, the cabinates were custom built from 3/4 plywood and the 
counter top was built right on top of the cabs..glue and nailed.  Seems I 
have 3 choices in sprucing up the counter and I'd like any opinions from 
people who have tried them:

1-try to rip the counter top out without distroying the underlying     
cab or the tile on the wall.  Then replace with a standard top from HD.

2-Lay new laminate over the old

3-Tile over the old laminate

Even with a sawzall and carefull planning I can't see any easy way to pull 
the counter out.  If I bust a tile or crack a cab I'm in trouble.
Therefore I am leaning toward 2 or 3?  Anyone ever lay new laminate or 
place tile over old laminate? 

Tile will be pretty easy to do and look great...but I'd expect it to be a 
real pain to keep clean.  New laminate would be fine but how easy is it to 
lay out while the current counter is in place?

-Greg

Why can't you:

 4) Rip the old laminate off the countertop and apply new laminate

?

- tom]

I thought of that, but it seems that is would be a lot of extra effort to 
pull the old laminate off when I could just go over the top of it.

I'm leaning toward doing nothing to the counter at all and waiting a few 
years until we can afford to redo the whole kitchen. 

On the subject of cabinate refacing...HD has a relationship with a vendor 
that does refacing...anybody ever use them?  You basically fill in the 
forms on the type, #, and size of the doors you need and they make them and 
send you the laminate to match.  The cost seems reasonable but it is 
difficult to judge the quality.

    Moderators: I did not find anything that matched this in the indices,
    and also I thought it would be good for this to have its own topic.
    
    
    			The Elm Research Institute
    
    	The Elm Research Institute has developed a Dutch Elm disease
    resistant elm tree.  This tree is called the American Liberty Elm and
    is available from them for home or municipal use.
    
    	To join, simply send a check for $29.00 to the following address.
    It will make  you a member, and you will receive a 1-2' American Liberty
    Elm in the mail.  Or you can call: 603-827-3048
    
    		The Elm Research Institute
    		Harrisville,NH 03450
    
    ( anyone have information on the chestnut tree?)
    

Have you tried FDCV14::GARDEN?  That seems a more likely place to discuss
trees.

			Steve